Q. End of Turn sequence
Michael & Kari Norville
I have a question about cleanup and spells/abilities that increase a
creature's toughness till end of turn.
Let's sat that during the turn my opponent Lightning Bolts my Frozen Shade
(0/1, B: +1/+1 till end of turn) for 3 points damage. And let's say thatin
response I pumped up my Frozen Shade three times to a 3/4 creature . Now, at
the end of turn, apparently, first at "end of turn" abilities go on the stack,
then spells and abilities can be played, then disarding (if necessary) outside
of the stack, THEN the damage is removed simultaneously with the "end of
turn". . . meaning that the Shade should survive, correct?
The rules from the .pdf file I downloaded state:
313. End of Turn Step
313.1. All “at end of turn” abilities trigger and go on the stack. (See rule
404, “Triggered Abilities.”) Then the active player receives priority to play
spells and abilities.
314. Cleanup Step
314.1. The cleanup step proceeds in the following order.
314.1a First, if the active player’s hand contains more cards than his or her
maximum hand size (normally seven), he or she discards enough
cards to reduce the hand to that number. This action doesn’t go on the stack.
314.1b Then, simultaneously, all damage is removed from permanents and all
“until end of turn” and “this turn” effects end. This action doesn’t go on the stack.
314.1c Then, only if the conditions for any state-based effects exist or if
any abilities have triggered, the active player receives priority to play
spells and
abilities. Once the stack is empty, another cleanup step begins. Otherwise, no
player receives priority and the step ends.
Michael Kastberg
>Let's sat that during the turn my opponent Lightning Bolts my Frozen
Shade (0/1, B: +1/+1 till end of turn) for 3 points damage. And let's
say thatin response I pumped up my Frozen Shade three times to a 3/4
creature . <
ok
> Now, at the end of turn, apparently, first at "end of turn"
abilities go on the stack<
Correct, but this doesn't really have anything to do with the effect
at hand.
The rules refferes to Phase-triggers. What you are dealing with, are
effects with a certain duration.
>meaning that the Shade should survive, correct?<
Correct, but kinda for the wrong reasons. :)
ok, look:
The End Phase consists of two steps:
The end of turn step (eots), and
the clean up step (cus).
At the start of of the eots, all things that says At The End Of Turn,
<something happens> are loaded onto the stack. Once both players pass
in succession on a empty stack, the eots ends, and the cus begins.
First thing you do in the cus is to discard down to 7 cards, if you
have more than 7. Next, things that says Until End Of Turn (the pump
from the shade), and damage on a creatures (the 3 damage from the
lightning bolt), will "wear off"/be removed at the same time. So yes,
the Shade lives, but it all happens during the cus, and not the eots.
Importent: There is a difference between AT the end of turn, and UNTIL
end of turn.
--
Take care,
Michael Kastberg
Law Student, University of Copenhagen
Kast...@vip.cybercity.dk
Steve Lord
<3800D238...@mn.state.net>...
>Greetings and salutations.
>
>I have a question about cleanup and spells/abilities that increase a
>creature's toughness till end of turn.
Most of those say "+X/+Y until end of turn" which means they wear
off during the Cleanup step, which is the same time that damage is
removed.
>Let's sat that during the turn my opponent Lightning Bolts my Frozen
Shade
>(0/1, B: +1/+1 till end of turn) for 3 points damage. And let's say
thatin
Technically, it's (0/1, B: +1/+1 _until_ end of turn). Emphasis
mine, and it does make a difference.
>response I pumped up my Frozen Shade three times to a 3/4 creature
. Now, at
>the end of turn, apparently, first at "end of turn" abilities go on
the stack,
>then spells and abilities can be played, then disarding (if
necessary) outside
>of the stack, THEN the damage is removed simultaneously with the "end
of
>turn". . . meaning that the Shade should survive, correct?
There are two steps in the End phase, keep in mind. But you are
correct, the Shade will survive.
>The rules from the .pdf file I downloaded state:
End Phase, which consists of two steps:
Step 1:
>313. End of Turn Step
>313.1. All “at end of turn” abilities trigger and go on the stack.
(See rule
>404, “Triggered Abilities.”) Then the active player receives priority
to play
>spells and abilities.
Step 2:
>314. Cleanup Step
>314.1. The cleanup step proceeds in the following order.
>314.1a First, if the active player’s hand contains more cards than
his or her
>maximum hand size (normally seven), he or she discards enough
>cards to reduce the hand to that number. This action doesn’t go on
the stack.
>314.1b Then, simultaneously, all damage is removed from permanents
and all
>“until end of turn” and “this turn” effects end. This action doesn’t
go on the stack.
This is the crucial one. The Shade's ability gives it +1/+1
_until end of turn_. So, the toughness boost and the 3 damage are
both removed at the same time, so the Shade will live.
>314.1c Then, only if the conditions for any state-based effects exist
or if
>any abilities have triggered, the active player receives priority to
play
>spells and
>abilities. Once the stack is empty, another cleanup step begins.
Otherwise, no
>player receives priority and the step ends.
Steve L
David DeLaney
>Greetings and salutations.
>
>I have a question about cleanup and spells/abilities that increase a
>creature's toughness till end of turn.
Okay. First general answer: "Until end of turn" effects wear off when
Cleanup step starts ... at the exact same time damage is removed from all
permanents (still) in play. So creatures won't die because they have
"too much damage for their unboosted toughness" in this manner.
>Let's sat that during the turn my opponent Lightning Bolts my Frozen Shade
>(0/1, B: +1/+1 till end of turn) for 3 points damage. And let's say thatin
>response I pumped up my Frozen Shade three times to a 3/4 creature . Now, at
>the end of turn, apparently, first at "end of turn" abilities go on the stack,
>then spells and abilities can be played, then disarding (if necessary) outside
>of the stack, THEN the damage is removed simultaneously with the "end of
>turn". . . meaning that the Shade should survive, correct?
Correct, exactly. If the Shade's ability said "B: +1/+1. At end of turn, Frozen
Shade gets -1/-1."... then it would shrink before the damage was removed, and
would die. But it doesn't say that, and lives. (About the only creatures that
-do- have this problem are Discordant Spirit, from Mirage, and Blood Hound,
new in Masques...)
>The rules from the .pdf file I downloaded state:
[snip] You've interpreted them correctly. Yes, there's a difference between
"at end of turn do this" and 'this lasts until end of turn'...
Dave
--
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It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
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