Phyrexian Dreadnaught Question & another
IAN MARSHALL
1. Can I cast a
Phryexian Dreadnaught 1
Trample
When Phryexian Dreadnaught comes into play,
sacrifice any number of creatures with total power of 12
or more, or bury phrexian Dreadnaught.
And before paying the 12 power, Sacrifice The dreadnaught
itself to an Altar of Dementia?
2. If I sacrifice Bottle Gnomes can my opponant then
Diabolic Edict me to force me to sac it, so I don't gain
life.
I don't think he can, as I heard that sacrificing was alot faster
than instants.
THANKS
IAN
Louie Hannen
IAN MARSHALL wrote:
> 1. Can I cast a
> Phryexian Dreadnaught 1
> Trample
> When Phryexian Dreadnaught comes into play,
> sacrifice any number of creatures with total power of 12
> or more, or bury phrexian Dreadnaught.
>
> And before paying the 12 power, Sacrifice The dreadnaught
> itself to an Altar of Dementia?
No. The Dreadnaught must be in play in order to sacrifice it. Since you
haven't paid the costs associated with bringing it into play, it is not
in play to be sacrificed.
> 2. If I sacrifice Bottle Gnomes can my opponant then
> Diabolic Edict me to force me to sac it, so I don't gain
> life.
> I don't think he can, as I heard that sacrificing was alot faster
> than instants.
You're right. Sacrificing in this case is the cost to use the Gnomes'
ability. The payment of a cost is something that cannot be interrupted
or prevented. By the time your opponent tries to cast the Edict, your
Bottle Gnomes have already been sacrificed and are no longer a valid
target for his spell.
Sacrificing is not "faster" than an instant. Once something is
successfully sacrificed, that sacrifice cannot be prevented or responded
to, true... but if your opponent casts an Edict on one of your
creatures, you can still respond by casting an Unsummon or using an
ability of that creature. It is Diabolic Edict that you are responding
to before it is successfully cast, not its effect (the sacrifice).
Louie
Phaedrus
In article <3544C215...@bellsouth.net>,
Louie Hannen <kay...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>IAN MARSHALL wrote:
>> 1. Can I cast a
>> Phryexian Dreadnaught 1
>> Trample
>> When Phryexian Dreadnaught comes into play,
>> sacrifice any number of creatures with total power of 12
>> or more, or bury phrexian Dreadnaught.
>>
>> And before paying the 12 power, Sacrifice The dreadnaught
>> itself to an Altar of Dementia?
>No. The Dreadnaught must be in play in order to sacrifice it. Since you
>haven't paid the costs associated with bringing it into play, it is not
>in play to be sacrificed.
Don't answer questions you don't know, please.
The Dreadnought most certainly does come into play. (Hint: When a
card says "If X happens, do Y," then Y only happens if X happens first.
When the Dreadnought says "When I come into play, sacrifice creatures to me
or bury me," the "sacrifice creatures to me or bury me" can't happen until
the Dreadnought has come into play. And, for that matter, you can't bury
things that aren't in play.)
It's true that you can't sacrifice the Dreadnought to the Altar in
this situation; but that's not because the Dreadnought isn't in play. (It
is.) It's because, when the Dreadnought does come into play, it triggers
its comes-into-play ability. (Likewise, if there were an Aether Flash in
play, it would trigger the Aether Flash's ability; and so on.) The Altar
of Dementia's ability is an instant. You can never announce normal instants
(instants that aren't damage prevention effects) until all the pending
triggered abilities have been dealt with completely. So, when the Dreadnought
comes into play, you can't announce any normal instants--including the
Altar's ability--until the Dreadnought's comes-into-play ability has been
dealt with completely. And, by that time, unless you've paid the Dreadnought's
comes-into-play cost, the Dreadnought will be in the graveyard.
If you had an Ashnod's Altar, you _could_ sacrifice the Dreadnought to
the Ashnod's Altar without paying the Dreadnought's cost. That's because
the Ashnod's Altar ability is a mana source, not an instant. Whenever you
have the right to use any spell or ability, you have the right to use mana
sources first. In this situation, you must have the right to use an ability
(namely, the Dreadnought's comes-into-play ability), so you have the right to
use mana sources first.
>> 2. If I sacrifice Bottle Gnomes can my opponant then
>> Diabolic Edict me to force me to sac it, so I don't gain
>> life.
>> I don't think he can, as I heard that sacrificing was alot faster
>> than instants.
>You're right. Sacrificing in this case is the cost to use the Gnomes'
>ability. The payment of a cost is something that cannot be interrupted
>or prevented. By the time your opponent tries to cast the Edict, your
>Bottle Gnomes have already been sacrificed and are no longer a valid
>target for his spell.
Right, although expressed in terms that are a bit misleading. The
Diabolic Edict doesn't target a creature in the first place; it only targets
a player. That target player does _not_ choose the creature to be sacrificed
at the time the Edict is announced; you never choose the subject of a
sacrifice until the time actually comes for the sacrifice to be performed.
(Gee, that sounds dark. :-) ) So, when the Edict resolves, the target player
must choose and sacrifice a creature he controls. If he cannot do that--
because he doesn't control any creatures at that time--then he does nothing.
>Sacrificing is not "faster" than an instant. Once something is
>successfully sacrificed, that sacrifice cannot be prevented or responded
>to, true... but if your opponent casts an Edict on one of your
>creatures, you can still respond by casting an Unsummon or using an
>ability of that creature.
Again, neither one of you chooses the creature to be sacrificed when
the Edict is announced; that doesn't happen until the Edict resolves.
Let's say that you have three creatures under your control, and your
opponent announces an Edict targeted at you. You (and your opponent) can
announce instants in response, just like always. If, by the time the Edict
resolves, you have no creatures left under your control (because you've
sacrificed them all, or phased them out, or whatever), then you sacrifice
nothing. But if you still have at least one creature under your control, then
you must choose one and sacrifice it. So, when your opponent announces the
Edict, you can't say "Okay, I'll choose Creature A. In response, I'll
sacrifice Creature A to my Altar of Dementia. Now the Edict resolves, but
Creature A is gone, so I don't do anything. Too bad." If Creatures B and
C are still under your control, you must sacrifice one of them.
> It is Diabolic Edict that you are responding
>to before it is successfully cast, not its effect (the sacrifice).
Errrrr, please be much more careful with your terms; explanations get
very confusing when you use the wrong terms for what you're saying. A
spell becomes "successfully cast" once people are through interrupting it,
and _before_ people have a chance to respond to it. "Cast," "successfully
cast," and "resolved" are three _very_ different things.
--
\o\ If you're interested in books and stories with transformation themes, \o\
/o/ please have a look at <URL:http://www.halcyon.com/phaedrus>. Thanks! /o/
\o\ FC1.21:FC(W/C)p6arw A- C->++ D>++ H+ M>+ P R T++++ W** Z+ Sm RLCT \o\
/o/ a cmn++++$ d e++ f+++ h- i++wf p-- sm# /o/
Chen
On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:36:21 -0400, Louie Hannen
<kay...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
>IAN MARSHALL wrote:
>> And before paying the 12 power, Sacrifice The dreadnaught
>> itself to an Altar of Dementia?
>
>No. The Dreadnaught must be in play in order to sacrifice it. Since you
>haven't paid the costs associated with bringing it into play, it is not
>in play to be sacrificed.
thats a little bit on the impossible side since there is no "Sacrifice
12 power" effect UNTIL the Dreadnought enters play. so yes, you can
virtually sac the Dreadnought (which would be the same as choosing the
self-burial effect).
-----
To mail me, change "com" to "net".
Ingo Kemper
>1. Can I cast a Phryexian Dreadnaught
>And before paying the 12 power, Sacrifice The dreadnaught
>itself to an Altar of Dementia?
No. Only mana sources and other triggered effects may be used during
the series of triggered effects that were triggered by the artifact
creature coming into play.
>2. If I sacrifice Bottle Gnomes can my opponant then
>Diabolic Edict me to force me to sac it, so I don't gain
>life.
No. Your opponent can't prevent you from sacrificing the gnomes at
all. (The Diabolic Edict will force you to sacrifice a second creature
as well, though.)
> I don't think he can, as I heard that sacrificing was alot faster
>than instants.
Sacrifices are usually done as costs, and costs are paid
instantaneously.
Ingo Kemper
--
__ _ __ __ __ __
__/ /_/ \/ /_/____/_ |___Sky...@uni-muenster.de___---===> \
/_/ /_/\_/ |__/ |__/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---===>__/
Chen
On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 21:57:16 GMT, kc...@pcmagic.com (Chen) wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:36:21 -0400, Louie Hannen
><kay...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>IAN MARSHALL wrote:
>
>>> And before paying the 12 power, Sacrifice The dreadnaught
>>> itself to an Altar of Dementia?
>>
>>No. The Dreadnaught must be in play in order to sacrifice it. Since you
>>haven't paid the costs associated with bringing it into play, it is not
>>in play to be sacrificed.
>
>thats a little bit on the impossible side since there is no "Sacrifice
>12 power" effect UNTIL the Dreadnought enters play. so yes, you can
>virtually sac the Dreadnought (which would be the same as choosing the
>self-burial effect).
>
>
>-----
>To mail me, change "com" to "net".
ack. sorry, didnt read the part about Altar of Dementia. no, you
cannot sac it to the altar...yes, you can sac it to itself to pay the
12 power.
David DeLaney
>Trample
>When Phryexian Dreadnaught comes into play,
>sacrifice any number of creatures with total power of 12
>or more, or bury phrexian Dreadnaught.
Yes, assuming you can find 1 mana.
>And before paying the 12 power, Sacrifice The dreadnaught
>itself to an Altar of Dementia?
No; instants aren't legal to play while you have triggered abilities to
deal with. You have to deal with everything that triggered off the Dreadnaught
coming into play, everything that triggers off _those_, etc., plus any
damage-prevention from any of this ... _before_ it's legal to announce the
next instant.
Specifically, you have to either sac 12 power of creatures, or bury the
Dreadnaught, before you can cast any Instant spells or use any instant
abilities.
>2. If I sacrifice Bottle Gnomes can my opponant then
>Diabolic Edict me to force me to sac it, so I don't gain life.
No. [Well, he can Edict you, but by the time he can do so, the Gnomes
are already gone. They are sacced as the _cost_ of their ability, done
when you _announce_ the ability, before anything can respond at all.]
> I don't think he can, as I heard that sacrificing was alot faster
>than instants.
That's not a meaningful statement.
Sacrifices happen when the card tells you to do them. If they're in a cost,
they happen when you pay the cost; usually this is when you _announce_
the spell or ability, and that's before anything at all can respond to
or interrupt it.
If they're in an effect, which _can_ happen [Diabolic Edict, for example,
or Balance], they happen when the effect resolves ... which is _after_
any responses to the spell or ability have already resolved and done their
thing.
Don't think about "speed" or "faster than", because it'll only get you
fairly confused, and lead people to answer different questions than you're
actually trying to ask...
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://panacea.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ/ I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Louie Hannen
Phaedrus wrote:
> In article <3544C215...@bellsouth.net>,
> Louie Hannen <kay...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >IAN MARSHALL wrote:
> >> 1. Can I cast a
> >> Phryexian Dreadnaught 1
> >> Trample
> >> When Phryexian Dreadnaught comes into play,
> >> sacrifice any number of creatures with total power of 12
> >> or more, or bury phrexian Dreadnaught.
> >>
> >> And before paying the 12 power, Sacrifice The dreadnaught
> >> itself to an Altar of Dementia?
>
> >No. The Dreadnaught must be in play in order to sacrifice it. Since you
> >haven't paid the costs associated with bringing it into play, it is not
> >in play to be sacrificed.
>
> Don't answer questions you don't know, please.
>
Ack! Please excuse the bad info. I should have read the text of the dreadnaught a
bit more carefully before answering the question.
Louie
Lord Black Goblin
>Ack! Please excuse the bad info. I should have read the text of the
dreadnaught a
>bit more carefully before answering the question.
Some general rules knowledge would also be welcome.
>Louie
+------+-=[ CITE ]=--=[ "C Nonsense in BASIC 0:1" ]
/ Lord +-------------=[ ]
/ Black +-=[ MAIL ]=--=[ ls...@camoes.rnl.ist.utl.pt ]
| Goblin +-=[ HOME ]=--=[ http://camoes.rnl.ist.utl.pt/~lsro/ ]
+--------+-=[ UDIC ]=--=[ Lord Black Dragon ]
Lord Black Goblin
>1. Can I cast a
>Phryexian Dreadnaught 1
>Trample
>When Phryexian Dreadnaught comes into play,
>sacrifice any number of creatures with total power of 12
>or more, or bury phrexian Dreadnaught.
>
>And before paying the 12 power, Sacrifice The dreadnaught
>itself to an Altar of Dementia?
No. You must first sacrifice the creature Phyrexian Dreadnought requests.
Before any player can play instant spells or abilities (like the Altar's),
he or she must wait until all "comes into play" effects resolve. You can't
Dark Banish a Man-o'-War before it sends something back to someone's hand,
for example. Same happens with Dreadnought. Until you can sacrifice all
creatures the Ph. D. demands, there's no Altar for anyone.
>2. If I sacrifice Bottle Gnomes can my opponant then
>Diabolic Edict me to force me to sac it, so I don't gain
>life.
By the time he casts D. E., the Gnomes would have already been gone.
> I don't think he can, as I heard that sacrificing was alot faster
>than instants.
Not quite. SACRIFICING AS AN ACTIVATION COST happens first (like paying mana
before playing a spell or ability). Like our fellow Gnomes here. SACRIFICING
AS AN EFFECT happens at the time that effect resolves (like the Diabolic
Edict).
Suppose Bottle Gnomes' text WOULD look like this: "0: Gain 3 life, then
sacrifice Bottle Gnomes."
Now, your opponent would play D.E. in response and you would have no other
creatures to sacrifice. You would have to flush the Gnomes down the
graveyard. Of course you could play the B.G. ability again in response to
the Edict and still be able to sacrifice it and collect the 3 life.
But Bottle Gnomes looks something more like: "Sacrifice Bottle Gnomes: Gain
3 life."
Since you would have to pay the activation cost (the sacrifice) before the
ability is anounced (and before it gets responded to), he could never force
you to destroy B.G. in the way he wanted (that is, without you gaining 3
life).
There!...
...did I make too much of a confusion?