Regeneration
Dave
Simple question about regeneration. Does the regeneration "effect" stack...
or is it like "Flying" where its simply on or off?
To illustrate:
At the beginning of my turn, after drawing a card, I tap two B, and activate
regeneration on a Drudge Skeleton twice. At this point? How many regneration
effects are on the skeleton? Just one, or both of them?
Later on in the turn. My opponent activates 2 Prodigal Sorcerors, and deals
1 damage to my Drudge Skeleton twice. If both regeneration effects are up,
then the first death due to damage is replaced by the first one, and the
second one is replaced by the second one. If they don't stack and I only had
one regeneration up, and it will die when the second damage resolves.
In general whats the rule that determines if an effect granted by a spell or
ability stacks with itself or not?
David DeLaney
>Simple question about regeneration. Does the regeneration "effect" stack...
>or is it like "Flying" where its simply on or off?
Regeneration makes, when it resolves, a replacement effect, a 'shield' as
it were. Each 'shield' made can replace one (future) destruction this
turn. If you have more than one shield, only one can replace a given
destruction; the rest just sit around waiting for something they can be
used on (or Cleanup step, whichever comes first).
So in that sense, uses of regeneration accumulate. (I wouldn't use 'stack'
because that has a whole different meaning in Magic.) If you regenerate
something twice in one turn, it will survive the next -two- attempts to
destroy it that turn (as long as neither one says 'it can't be regenerated'
as part of the effect).
>At the beginning of my turn, after drawing a card, I tap two B, and activate
>regeneration on a Drudge Skeleton twice. At this point? How many regneration
>effects are on the skeleton? Just one, or both of them?
Two "shields" are on it, two "the next time this turn ~this~ would be
destroyed, instead tap it, remove all damage from it, and remove it from
combat" effects. You'd have to destroy it three times this turn, at this
point, to get (the last) one to work - or just once with a "bury"/"destroy,
it can't be regenerated" effect.
>Later on in the turn. My opponent activates 2 Prodigal Sorcerors, and deals
>1 damage to my Drudge Skeleton twice. If both regeneration effects are up,
>then the first death due to damage is replaced by the first one, and the
>second one is replaced by the second one. If they don't stack and I only had
>one regeneration up, and it will die when the second damage resolves.
Your Skeletons will survive getting Timmed twice this turn. Not three times,
unless you make a third shield, but you do have two shields up, and each
will replace one destruction (and wipe Tim's damage off the Skeletons in
the process).
>In general whats the rule that determines if an effect granted by a spell or
>ability stacks with itself or not?
Rune just answered this either on the judgelist or in Saturday School, I
don't know which. It's a set of rules of thumb:
Does it give a bonus or penalty to power/toughness? Then it accumulates.
Is it a triggered ability? Then it will trigger once for each instance of
the ability. (Provoke, Rampage, Flanking)
Does it change the rules of the game, without using words like "an
additional" or "in addition to"? Then it usually has no further effect
when applied a second time. (Trample, flying, protection-from, Double
Strike, for example. Being face-down. "This can't be blocked except by two
or more creatures", or actually most blocking restrictions or evasion
abilities.)
Does it give something an activated ability? Since you can only use one
activated ability at a time, this generally gives you more -options- but
doesn't let you do more things "at once".
Most of the keyword abilities in the rulebook should let you know whether they
have additional effects in multiples, or not.
If you have specific questions that aren't clear to you, by all means ask.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Lee Sharpe
"Lee Sharpe" <sha...@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:M9Rfa.3357$_i4....@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu...
>
> "Dave" <x...@xyz.com> wrote:
> >
Err, sorry about the date issue. My computer has been acting up.
--
Lee Sharpe
DCI Certified Level 2 Judge
President, UIUC Magic: The Gathering Club
http://www.uiuc.edu/ro/mtg
Daniel W. Johnson
> In general whats the rule that determines if an effect granted by a spell or
> ability stacks with itself or not?
The general rule is: Everything applies, no matter where it came from.
Everything.
Sometimes, repeated application isn't interesting:
Aurora Griffin
{3}{W}
Creature -- Griffin
2/2
Flying
{W}: Target permanent becomes white until end of turn.
Using the ability of Aurora Griffin on a white permanent is not
interesting. Maybe you have a Celestial Dawn in play. Maybe someone
used a Purelace on it. Maybe it was printed as a white card. Maybe you
used Aurora Griffin on it earlier in the turn. Maybe your opponent used
their own Aurora Griffin on it. No one cares.
Some types of changes are interesting:
Elven Fortress
{G}
Enchantment
{1}{G}: Target blocking creature gets +0/+1 until end of turn.
Using the ability of Elven Fortress on a 1/3 blocker will make it a 1/4
blocker. Maybe it was a 4/6 blocker that got a -3/-3 from somewhere
else. Maybe it was a 0/3 blocker that got a +1/+0 from somewhere else.
Maybe it was a 1/2 blocker that has already benefited from Elven
Fortress this turn. Maybe it was printed as 1/3. Again, no one cares.
For static abilities, you track the source only because the ability will
go away if its source does. (When a Lance is removed, the enchanted
creature stops receiving first strike from it.) Once the source
resolves, its nature is not otherwise interesting.
For activated abilities, remember that you can take only one action at a
time, and you choose one (1) spell/ability before taking care of its
cost. When you play a spell or activated ability, you do not also get
the benefit of any other spell/ability that has a similar cost and/or a
similar source.
Multiple triggered abilities are subject to rule 410.3. Note that the
rule does not care about similarities between the triggered abilities or
between their sources.
410.3. If multiple abilities have triggered since the last time a player
received priority, pseudospells controlled by the active player go on
the stack first, in any order he or she chooses, then those controlled
by the opponent go on the stack in any order that opponent chooses. Then
players once again check for and resolve state-based effects until none
are generated, then abilities that triggered during this process go on
the stack. This process repeats until no new state-based effects are
generated and no abilities trigger. Then the appropriate player gets
priority.
Multiple replacement/prevention effects are subject to rule 419.8. If
the first effect applied makes any other(s) irrelevant, the irrelevant
effect(s) would not be applied. (Using a regeneration shield to replace
destruction is likely to make other such shields irrelevant.)
419.8. Interaction of Replacement or Prevention Effects
419.8a If two or more replacement or prevention effects are attempting
to modify the way an event affects a permanent or player, the affected
permanent's controller or the affected player chooses one to apply to
that permanent or player. Then the other applies if it is still
appropriate. If one or more of the applicable replacement effects is a
"self-replacement effect" (see rule 419.6d), that effect is applied
before any other replacement effects.
Example: Two cards are in play. One is an enchantment that reads "If a
card would be put into a graveyard, instead remove it from the game,"
and the other is a creature that reads "If [this card] would be put into
a graveyard, instead shuffle it into its owner's library." The
controller of the creature that would be destroyed decides which
replacement to apply first; the other does nothing.
419.8b A replacement effect can become applicable to an event as the
result of another replacement effect that modifies the event.
Example: One effect reads, "For each 1 life you would gain, instead draw
a card," and another reads, "Instead of drawing a card, return target
card from your graveyard to your hand." Both effects combine (regardless
of the order they came into play): Instead of gaining 1 life, the player
puts a card from his or her graveyard into his or her hand.
For keyword abilities, see the comprehensive rules. They use "are
redundant" to mean the same thing as my "isn't interesting" at the top
of this post. Of course, the answer for each keyword ability is based
on the same principles as my notes above.
Mike & Roe
This poster mentions activating the regeneration "shields" seemingly long before
his/her opponent does anything.
However, It is still entirely possible to prevent the two "Tim" shots from killing
the Drudge Skellies in response to each ping instead of putting the shield up before
the ping is even announced....correct?
Opponent pings with Tim, you add regen to the stack, it resolves before tim, and the
ping is negated.
I'm asking because I would rather wait it out and save the mana in case an attempt
is made, instead of spending it at the beginning of my turn for something that may
or may not happen.
>
>
> >At the beginning of my turn, after drawing a card, I tap two B, and activate
> >regeneration on a Drudge Skeleton twice. At this point? How many regneration
> >effects are on the skeleton? Just one, or both of them?
>
> Two "shields" are on it, two "the next time this turn ~this~ would be
> destroyed, instead tap it, remove all damage from it, and remove it from
> combat" effects. You'd have to destroy it three times this turn, at this
> point, to get (the last) one to work - or just once with a "bury"/"destroy,
> it can't be regenerated" effect.
>
>
--
In MAGIC, as in LIFE, TIMING is EVERYTHING!!
Hey, I didn't write the Rules....I'm just going to use them against you.
Daniel W. Johnson
> However, It is still entirely possible to prevent the two "Tim" shots from
> killing the Drudge Skellies in response to each ping instead of putting
> the shield up before the ping is even announced....correct?
> Opponent pings with Tim, you add regen to the stack, it resolves before
> tim, and the ping is negated.
Yes, that is the usual procedure.
Lee Sharpe
before
> his/her opponent does anything.
>
> However, It is still entirely possible to prevent the two "Tim" shots from
killing
> the Drudge Skellies in response to each ping instead of putting the shield
up before
> the ping is even announced....correct?
Yes, it will wrok either way.
DB
"Mike & Roe" <mz...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:3E813B4F...@optonline.net...
> >
>
> This poster mentions activating the regeneration "shields" seemingly long
before
> his/her opponent does anything.
>
> However, It is still entirely possible to prevent the two "Tim" shots from
killing
> the Drudge Skellies in response to each ping instead of putting the shield
up before
> the ping is even announced....correct?
> Opponent pings with Tim, you add regen to the stack, it resolves before
tim, and the
> ping is negated.
>
> I'm asking because I would rather wait it out and save the mana in case an
attempt
> is made, instead of spending it at the beginning of my turn for something
that may
> or may not happen.
In my case, I had to spend some extra mana or else take mana burn so I sunk
it into my drudges. Later in the turn when my drudges were killed twice (by
pestilence actually) there was some debate as to whether they were still
alive. (I needed to know whether multiple regeneration shields "accumulated"
to replace successive multiple future deaths. [and apparently they do]).
Normally, you're right, regeneration is typically activated in response to
the lethal damage (so it goes on the stack after the damage, and of course
still resolves ahead of the damage, getting the shield up in time.
David DeLaney
>This poster mentions activating the regeneration "shields" seemingly long before
>his/her opponent does anything.
>
>However, It is still entirely possible to prevent the two "Tim" shots from killing
>the Drudge Skellies in response to each ping instead of putting the shield up before
>the ping is even announced....correct?
Correct; you may respond to Tim's activated ability by using the Skeleetons'
activated ability (which on resolution makes the regen 'shield', and since
it's going on the stack on top of Tim's ability, must resolve first).
>Opponent pings with Tim, you add regen to the stack, it resolves before tim, and the
>ping is negated.
Not 'negated' (or prevented); the regen shield doesn't stop the -damage-
in any way. What it replaces is, a moment later, the -destruction- of
the Skeletons, by the rules, because they are now lethally-damaged Skeletons...
>I'm asking because I would rather wait it out and save the mana in case an attempt
>is made, instead of spending it at the beginning of my turn for something that may
>or may not happen.
Sure, that's fine. It only becomes too late once Tim's ability starts
actually -resolving-...
David DeLaney
>In my case, I had to spend some extra mana or else take mana burn so I sunk
>it into my drudges. Later in the turn when my drudges were killed twice (by
>pestilence actually) there was some debate as to whether they were still
>alive. (I needed to know whether multiple regeneration shields "accumulated"
>to replace successive multiple future deaths. [and apparently they do]).
Yep. And for the question that invariably comes next? The 'shields' last
until end of turn, only, so can't be 'stored up for future turns' in any
way, sorry...
jet
before in here, this thread is simply just too long for someone to
read with limited internet access(time).
if a creature has already acitvated its regeneration and is assigned
damage, and resolved, would i need to pay regeneration costs if it is
assigned damage again on the same turn or will the first activated
ability nullify all damages dealt to the regenerated creature until
end of turn?
and also can u use the regeneration ability even if the creature wasnt
assigned damage
example:
patchwork gnomes, pay its regeneration cost(discard a card) to use the
madness ability of the discarded card.
Card Color : Artifact
Casting Cost : 3
Card Type : artifact creature
Edition : Odyssey [U], Tempest [Uncommon]
Power/Toughness : 2/1
Artist : Mike Raabe
Card Ruling
Text(OD): 2/1. ; Discard a card from your hand: Regenerate ~this~.
Note - Before errata, this card did not have a creature type.
Lee Sharpe
"jet" <jet_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> hello im gonna ask a question, i dont know if this has been asked
> before in here, this thread is simply just too long for someone to
> read with limited internet access(time).
That's OK. Rarely is a question asked only once. We don't mind answering
it again.
> if a creature has already acitvated its regeneration and is assigned
> damage, and resolved, would i need to pay regeneration costs if it is
> assigned damage again on the same turn or will the first activated
> ability nullify all damages dealt to the regenerated creature until
> end of turn?
Each activation of a reneration ability that resolves will create a
regeneration shield on the creature. This shield remains on the creature
until it would be destroyed. Once that happens, all damage is removed from
the creature, the creature becomes tapped and is removed from combat, and
the shield goes away. Further destructions of the creature will be handled
normally (i.e. the creatuere will go to the graveyards
> and also can u use the regeneration ability even if the creature wasnt
> assigned damage
>
> example:
>
> patchwork gnomes, pay its regeneration cost(discard a card) to use the
> madness ability of the discarded card.
Yes. You can play the ability if you want. It will just place a
regeneration shield on the creature. They will disappear at end of turn if
they don't replace a destruction, but if this happens that's OK.
David DeLaney
>if a creature has already acitvated its regeneration and is assigned
>damage, and resolved, would i need to pay regeneration costs if it is
>assigned damage again on the same turn or will the first activated
>ability nullify all damages dealt to the regenerated creature until
>end of turn?
The first ability will make one 'shield', one replacement effect, as it
resolves. That effect will replace the -next- time this turn, only, that
the permanent would be destroyed. It'll last until end of turn if not
used ... or until used, whichever comes first. So if something tries to
destroy this a second time this turn, the first shield's been used up
already, and you'd need to regenerate it again.
>and also can u use the regeneration ability even if the creature wasnt
>assigned damage
Oh, sure. It doesn't replace damage, it replaces destruction... and
replacement / prevention effects _have to_ exist in advance under 6E/7E
rules. Nothing about regeneration says "Something has to be threatening
to destroy this permanent, or else you can't make the shield in the first
place"...
>patchwork gnomes, pay its regeneration cost(discard a card) to use the
>madness ability of the discarded card.
That's perfectly fine, yes. You'll get a regen shield out of this also,
which if not used this turn will simply last until end of turn, then
quietly expire unused.