When attacking creatures gain and lose abilities....
Harry Benkiel
I'm a little confused regarding the timing and resolution of attacking
creature abilities.
For example, if the Goblin Ski Patrol attacks, how late can their
controller announce that he or she intends to use their special
ability to fly and increase their power: before or after defenders are
announced? How late could a Jump be cast?
On the other hand, if a Shivan Dragon attacks with a Moat in play, and
the would-be defending player uses Radjan Spirit to remove its flying
ability, does the attack fizzle? Does it make a difference if the
defender announces something like "before you attack, as a fast effect
I remove the Shivan's flying ability" or can the Spirit be used in
this context during the attack phase? If so, is the Shivan still
tapped?
If a Bog Wraith attacks someone with swamps, with the attacker
intending to use its swampwalking ability, how late can the defender
tap Urborg to remove the swampwalking? Can Urborg be used after the
attack is announced but before defenders are chosen, or must Urborg be
used in the "before you attack, as a fast effect I tap Urborg to
remove your Wraith's swampwalking ability?"
Cheers, Harry
Michael D. Phoenix
Harry Benkiel <hben...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>I'm a little confused regarding the timing and resolution of attacking
>creature abilities.
Woo. Lot of questions all at once. *deep breath*.
>For example, if the Goblin Ski Patrol attacks, how late can their
>controller announce that he or she intends to use their special
>ability to fly and increase their power: before or after defenders are
>announced? How late could a Jump be cast?
Short answer: as late as he or she wants, including just before the end
of the turn (in which case, they'd be almost immediately buried).
Long answer: What you really mean to ask here is "How late can their
controller announce that he or she intends to use their special ability to
fly and increase their power, and still have it affect which blocking
decisions can be made?" And the answer to that is easy; during the
fast effects step between Declare Attackers and Declare Blockers. Once
blockers have been declared, *nothing* (except False Orders) will undo the
fact that the creature is blocked. You can use the GSP ability after
Declare Blockers, but all you'll do is make them a 3/1 blocked creature.
If your objective is to fly over the opposition, use the ability before
Declare Blockers, when it can still affect what blocking decisions are legal.
If your objective is to sucker your opponent into blocking with his 0/3
Weaknesse'd Giant Spider, so you can kill it off, then use it after he
declares that he's blocking with his Giant Spider, when (1) it won't make
that block illegal, and (2) he can't change his mind and decide not to block.
>On the other hand, if a Shivan Dragon attacks with a Moat in play, and
>the would-be defending player uses Radjan Spirit to remove its flying
>ability, does the attack fizzle?
No. By the same logic, "Non-flying creatures cannot attack." affects
decisions being made in the Declare Attackers step. Once that step is over,
attacking creatures are attacking, and can only be made non-attacking by
an effect like the (Arabian Nights, Revised) Ebony Horse.
If the Shivan Dragon is actually allowed to attack, i.e. nothing is done
to its flying ability before the "Declare Attackers" phase, then changing
its flying ability after that will have no effect on its attacking status.
>Does it make a difference if the
>defender announces something like "before you attack, as a fast effect
>I remove the Shivan's flying ability"
Yes. In this case, the Shivan, no longer a flying creature, cannot be
declared as an attacker.
>or can the Spirit be used in
>this context during the attack phase?
1) during the Declare Attackers step, only a very few effects, most of
which specifically state that they can only be used while declaring
attackers, can be used. Radjan Spirit is not one of them. It cannot be
used during the Declare Attackers step.
2) during any of the fast-effects steps later in the attack phase, the
Radjan Spirit can be used, but will have no effect on the attacking of
the Shivan Dragon.
>If a Bog Wraith attacks someone with swamps, with the attacker
>intending to use its swampwalking ability, how late can the defender
>tap Urborg to remove the swampwalking? Can Urborg be used after the
The defender can wait until the fast-effects step immediately after
Declare Attackers and immediately before Declare Blockers. If he or she
waits longer than this, then the Bog Wraith is still swampwalking during
Declare Blockers, and thus cannot have any blockers assigned to block it
if the defending player controls any swamps.
>attack is announced but before defenders are chosen, or must Urborg be
Yes. There is a fast effects step right after the Declare Attackers step
and right before the Declare Blockers step, just as there is one between
Declare Blockers and Deal Combat Damage.
>used in the "before you attack, as a fast effect I tap Urborg to
>remove your Wraith's swampwalking ability?"
You can use it here, too, but then he might not attack (if you can block with
enough to kill it). Wait until he attacks, then Urborg it--if he's not
paying attention, you might catch him by surprise.
Mickey.
Mike Marcelais
| >On the other hand, if a Shivan Dragon attacks with a Moat in play, and
| >the would-be defending player uses Radjan Spirit to remove its flying
| >ability, does the attack fizzle? Does it make a difference if the
| >defender announces something like "before you attack, as a fast effect
| >I remove the Shivan's flying ability" or can the Spirit be used in
| >this context during the attack phase? If so, is the Shivan still
| >tapped?
| Not sure on this one...I don't know if an attack can fizzle or
| not. I'd say if you declared the start of your attack phase, waited for
| response, then attacked, then it's too late to take away its flight. But,
| if you just declared attackers without declaring the start of the attack
| phase, you'd have to back up and let him take away the flight. Untap the
| illegal attacker in this case.
If the Shivan has flying when the attack is _declared_, then it will
be attacking -- even if its flying is removed later. (Removing flying
before naming blockers means it can be blocked by non-flyers, but the
Moat won't care -- the Shivan has already cleared it.)
--
+------------------------+----------------------------+
| Mike Marcelais | m...@alphatronix.com |
| Moonstone Dragon | Magic: The Gathering Judge |
| -==(UDIC)==- | Author of ChrHack 2.3 |
+-----------------------------------------------------+
Harry Benkiel
mic...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Michael D. Phoenix) wrote:
>Woo. Lot of questions all at once. *deep breath*.
I appreciate all the effort you made in responding though. Most of
what you wrote I already suspected, but my gaming group loves a good
argument.
It's really a strange game when the rules booklet is just a few pages
long, and the rulings and errata rival many a novella in length.
Once again, thanks for the reply.
Cheers, Harry
David DeLaney
>I'm a little confused regarding the timing and resolution of attacking
>creature abilities.
>
>controller announce that he or she intends to use their special
>ability to fly and increase their power: before or after defenders are
>announced? How late could a Jump be cast?
There's actually two different questions here:
1) "When can I use the ability?"
and
2) "When can I use the ability so that it makes a difference to blockers?"
You can *use* the GSP's ability in either fast-effects step in the attack. [In
fact, you can use it outside the attack phase as well, since it doesn't say
anything about affecting "attackers" or "blockers".] You can *cast* Jump on
a creature at any time fast effects are legal.
But: if you want the GSP to Fly over blockers, then you have to use the ability
before blockers are declared. If a blocker or two is declared for the GSP,
making the GSP Fly _after_ that has absolutely no effect on whether or not it's
still blocked [rulebook]. Similarly, if your weenie gets blocked by a Leviathan,
casting Jump on the weenie *after* that leaves you with a Flying weenie blocked
by a Leviathan...
>On the other hand, if a Shivan Dragon attacks with a Moat in play, and
>the would-be defending player uses Radjan Spirit to remove its flying
>ability, does the attack fizzle?
No. The Spirit's ability is illegal *while* the attackers are being declared;
using it after that leaves you with an attacking grounded Shivan. Moat only
checks while attackers are being declared [and so does Island Sanctuary, for
instance].
>Does it make a difference if the
>defender announces something like "before you attack, as a fast effect
>I remove the Shivan's flying ability"
This makes a difference; if the Shivan is grounded before the attack, the Moat
then prevents it from attacking.
>or can the Spirit be used in
>this context during the attack phase?
The Spirit can be *used* like that during the attack - but it won't stop the
Shivan from _having been declared as an attacker_.
> If so, is the Shivan still tapped?
If the Shivan got to be declared as an attacker, it tapped. Radjan Spirits
do not untap things. Radjan Spirits cannot "retroactively remove a creature
from the attack", either, because they don't *say* they can.
>If a Bog Wraith attacks someone with swamps, with the attacker
>intending to use its swampwalking ability, how late can the defender
>tap Urborg to remove the swampwalking?
Whenever he likes. To remove it _in time to be able to block the Wraith_,
however, he must tap Urborg before blockers are declared; making the Wraith
blockable [or unblockable] after blockers are declared doesn't let you go back
and change around the blocking assignments or non-assignments [you want False
Orders for that].
>Can Urborg be used after the
>attack is announced but before defenders are chosen,
Sure.
>or must Urborg be
>used in the "before you attack, as a fast effect I tap Urborg to
>remove your Wraith's swampwalking ability?"
That's okay too. Either of these will leave the Wraith blockable when declare-
blockers step arrives.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. Disclaimer: IMHO; VRbeableURLAP
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Christopher Robert Durston
>For example, if the Goblin Ski Patrol attacks, how late can their
>controller announce that he or she intends to use their special
>ability to fly and increase their power: before or after defenders are
>announced? How late could a Jump be cast?
As late as you want. BUT, if you cast it after blockers are
declared, the jumped creature is still blocked. Same as if you unsummon
a blocker, or kill it with a lightning bolt or whatever. Seems silly,
but so say the Rules.
>On the other hand, if a Shivan Dragon attacks with a Moat in play, and
>the would-be defending player uses Radjan Spirit to remove its flying
>ability, does the attack fizzle? Does it make a difference if the
>defender announces something like "before you attack, as a fast effect
>I remove the Shivan's flying ability" or can the Spirit be used in
>this context during the attack phase? If so, is the Shivan still
>tapped?
Not sure on this one...I don't know if an attack can fizzle or
not. I'd say if you declared the start of your attack phase, waited for
response, then attacked, then it's too late to take away its flight. But,
if you just declared attackers without declaring the start of the attack
phase, you'd have to back up and let him take away the flight. Untap the
illegal attacker in this case.
>If a Bog Wraith attacks someone with swamps, with the attacker
>intending to use its swampwalking ability, how late can the defender
>tap Urborg to remove the swampwalking? Can Urborg be used after the
>attack is announced but before defenders are chosen, or must Urborg be
>used in the "before you attack, as a fast effect I tap Urborg to
>remove your Wraith's swampwalking ability?"
After attack but before defense. :) Nasty, no?
-Chris
Mark Phaedrus
(Christopher Robert Durston) wrote:
> In <3u2b4e$b...@firehose.mindspring.com> hben...@mindspring.com (Harry
Benkiel) writes:
> >On the other hand, if a Shivan Dragon attacks with a Moat in play, and
> >the would-be defending player uses Radjan Spirit to remove its flying
> >ability, does the attack fizzle? Does it make a difference if the
> >defender announces something like "before you attack, as a fast effect
> >I remove the Shivan's flying ability" or can the Spirit be used in
> >this context during the attack phase? If so, is the Shivan still
> >tapped?
> Not sure on this one...I don't know if an attack can fizzle or
> not. I'd say if you declared the start of your attack phase, waited for
> response, then attacked, then it's too late to take away its flight. But,
> if you just declared attackers without declaring the start of the attack
> phase, you'd have to back up and let him take away the flight. Untap the
> illegal attacker in this case.
The rulings say that the legality of a creature's attacking is
determined when the attackers are declared; after a set of attackers have
been legally declared, those creatures are now attacking, even if a later
fast effect makes it so that they "cannot attack".
You declare the Shivan as an attacker. That's legal, because it's
flying, and the Moat doesn't prevent flying creatures from attacking.
Then, during the fast-effects phase after attackers are declared and
before blockers are declared, the opponent removes the flying ability.
That's legal too; the Shivan is now non-flying, and can be blocked by
non-flyers. But the Shivan is still attacking; the Moat has no effect
once the "declare attackers" portion of the attack is over.
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