RULINGS SUMMARY: CARDS (Changes Only) (04/16/97)
Stephen D''Angelo
=============================================================================
Card Rulings Summary Updated 04/16/97
=============================================================================
Rulings are collected from many sources. See credits and disclaimer at the
end of the file for details. The most recent mtg-l digest used was
"14 Apr 1997 to 15 Apr 1997".
These rulings are updated monthly. The most recent version is available on
the web (WWW) as either of the following:
http://www.activesw.com/~sdangelo/magic.html
ftp://ftp.activesw.com/pub/sdangelo/magic/rule-cards.txt
ftp://ftp.itis.com/pub/deckmaster/rules/rule-cards.txt
The above files are also available via FTP to "ftp.activesw.com" under
"pub/sdangelo/magic" or to "ftp.itis.com" under "/pub/deckmaster/rules" as
"rule-cards.txt". If you have neither WWW nor FTP access, send e-mail to
"dan...@netcom.com" requesting a copy of the current Rulings Summaries.
A '+' is used to mark changes since the last released version on 03/19/97.
Thanx,
Stephen.
----
Stephen D'Angelo | Official Magic: The Gathering Rules Summary
dan...@netcom.com | Network Representative for Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
==============================================================================
Printing Information
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No changes to this section.
Card Rulings
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- - * - * - A - * - * - -
The Abyss:
+ If the target becomes invalid after being chosen but before resolution,
you do not have to choose another target. [Duelist Magazine #16, Page 25]
(REVERSAL) See the "Phase Effects" entry in the General Rulings for more
information.
Animate Artifact:
+ Animated artifacts are subject to summoning sickness. [Mirage Page 14]
+ If the artifact was in play on your side before you animated it, you may
use it immediately.
Animate Dead:
+ Enters play as a global enchantment and then becomes an Enchant Creature as
a triggered effect upon entering play. It follows all the rules for
Enchant Creature cards from then on. [WotC Rules Team 03/14/97] (Borrowed
from Necromancy rulings)
+ The bringing of the creature into play and then putting Necromancy on it is
all done as one triggered ability. [bethmo 02/25/97] (Borrowed from
Necromancy rulings)
+ As a local enchantment, its only legal target is the one chosen when it
entered play, thus there is no other legal target to move it to with
Enchantment Alteration. [WotC Rules Team 03/14/97] (Borrowed from
Necromancy rulings)
+ Animate Dead is a creature enchantment spell and so it does activate the
Rabid Wombat and trigger other cards which use creature enchantments.
[Duelist Magazine #6, Page 131] (It is unclear if this is still true,
D'Angelo 04/11/97)
+ The Fifth Edition version is no longer an Enchant Dead Creature card like
the previous versions were. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
Arboria:
+ You can put tokens into play without ending this effect. For example,
Tombstone Stairwell. [D'Angelo 03/26/97]
Armageddon Clock:
+ While other players can play the counter removal effect, the controller of
the Clock is considered to be the controller of those effects.
[D'Angelo 03/26/97]
+ Each player may announce use of the counter removal effect once during each
upkeep. [D'Angelo 04/07/97]
- - * - * - B - * - * - -
Balance:
+ Has been on the Duelists' Convocation restricted list (only one allowed in
a deck) for Type I tournaments since 04/19/95. Was on the Type II banned
list from 01/01/97 to 04/2/97 when it became banned because it was no
longer in the base set. It was previously on the Type II restricted list
from 04/19/96 to 01/01/97.
Barbed Sextant:
+ You draw a card on the turn after you use the ability. [Aahz 06/08/95]
+ The Fifth Edition version has you draw a card at the beginning of the next
turn while the Ice Age version has you draw at the beginning of the next
turn's upkeep. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
Black Vise:
+ Was on the Duelists' Convocation banned list (none allowed in a deck) for
Type II tournaments from 01/01/97 to 04/24/97 when it became banned
because it is no longer in the base set. Previously, it had been on the
restricted list (only 1 per deck) for Type II tournaments from 02/01/96
to 01/01/97. It was on the restricted list for Type I tournaments from
02/01/96 to 04/01/96.
Blanket of Night:
+ If this effect is applied to a Snow-Covered land, the land is now a
Snow-Covered Swamp and not just a regular Swamp. [bethmo 03/23/97]
Blessed Wine:
+ The Fifth Edition version has you draw a card at the beginning of the next
turn while the Ice Age version has you draw at the beginning of the next
turn's upkeep. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
Bottle of Suleiman:
+ It cannot be used to attack in the turn in which it is "created" by
paying the artifact's cost. It comes into play with summoning sickness
like any creature does.
Bronze Tablet:
+ Has been on the Duelists' Convocation banned list (not allowed in a deck)
for Type I and Type II tournaments since 05/02/94 because it is only used
in games for Ante. Now banned in Type II because it is not in the base
set.
- - * - * - C - * - * - -
Channel:
+ Has been on the Duelist Convocation banned list (not allowed in decks) for
Type I and Type II tournaments since 11/01/95. It was on the Convocation
restricted list (only 1 per deck) for tournaments from 03/23/94 to
11/01/95. Now banned in Type II since it is no longer in the base set.
Cloak of Confusion:
+ The Fifth Edition version's ability has an activation cost and is played as
an instant by the enchantment's controller. The Ice Age version was
played as a triggered effect at the end of blocking declaration and the
choice was made by the creature's controller. [D'Angelo 04/07/97]
+ As errata to the Ice Age version, it should say "effect" instead of
"ability". [Encyclopedia Page 76]
Conversion:
+ As errata, it should read "All mountains become basic plains. During your
upkeep, pay {W}{W} or bury Conversion." [Encyclopedia Page 24] The word
"basic" isn't necessary under the current rules. [D'Angelo 04/07/97]
- - * - * - D - * - * - -
Dance of the Dead:
+ Cannot be cast on dead creatures which are in play because of another
Dance of the Dead spell, but can be moved using Enchantment Alteration
from one animated creature to another. If so, you gain control of that
creature since your animate is more recent than the other one.
[WotC Rules Team 11/16/94] (Based on Animate Dead ruling)
- - * - * - E - * - * - -
Elkin Bottle:
+ The Fifth Edition version gives you until the beginning of the next turn
while the Ice Age version gave you until the beginning of the next
turn's upkeep. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
Enervate:
+ See the "Cantrip" entry in the General Rulings for more information.
+ The Fifth Edition version has you draw a card at the beginning of the next
turn while the Ice Age version has you draw at the beginning of the next
turn's upkeep. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
Erosion:
+ The payment is an upkeep cost managed by the enchantment and is not
considered to be on the land itself. This means that you can use the
abilities of the land prior to paying the upkeep cost.
[Duelist Magazine #11, Page 56]
- - * - * - F - * - * - -
Firestorm Phoenix:
+ It may not be summoned again until your next turn, but it can be put into
play by effects such as Flash or Eureka. [Aahz 04/07/97]
+ A Clone or Doppelganger of this card also cannot be summoned until your next
turn. The effect is considered to apply to the card. [Aahz 04/07/97]
Flare:
+ The Fifth Edition version has you draw a card at the beginning of the next
turn while the Ice Age and Mirage versions have you draw at the beginning
of the next turn's upkeep. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
Foxfire:
+ The Fifth Edition version has you draw a card at the beginning of the next
turn while the Ice Age version has you draw at the beginning of the next
turn's upkeep. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
- - * - * - G - * - * - -
Gate to Phyrexia:
+ If there is nothing to target with the destroy, you cannot announce the
phase effect and therefore do not have to sacrifice anything.
[D'Angelo 04/07/97]
Gaze of Pain:
+ Does not target the creatures. [Aahz 07/19/96]
+ The ability is used as a triggered effect at the end of blocking
declaration. At that time, you choose to either have them deal damage
or to do damage to a target creature. [D'Angelo 04/07/97]
Giant Oyster:
+ If the Oyster untaps before the putting of a -1/-1 counter on the creature
happens, the -1/-1 counter goes on when the effect resolves and then is
removed immediately. [Aahz 12/07/96] The effects of the -1/-1 counter,
including possible death of the creature, are applied before the counter
is removed. [D'Angelo 04/07/97]
- - * - * - H - * - * - -
Heal:
+ The Fifth Edition version has you draw a card at the beginning of the next
turn while the Ice Age version has you draw at the beginning of the next
turn's upkeep. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
- - * - * - I - * - * - -
Infinite Hourglass:
+ Each player may announce use of the counter removal effect once during each
upkeep. [D'Angelo 04/07/97]
+ The controller of Infinite Hourglass is considered the controller of the
counter removal effect even though other players may announce it.
[D'Angelo 04/07/97]
Island Sanctuary:
+ The Fifth Edition version has an activation cost, while previous versions
did not. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
Ivory Tower:
+ Has been on the Duelists' Convocation restricted list (only 1 per deck)
for Type I tournaments since 05/02/94. Was on the banned list (none
allowed in a deck) for Type II tournaments from 01/01/97 to 04/24/97 and
is now banned because it is not in the base set. Was previously on the
Type II restricted list.
- - * - * - J - * - * - -
Jeweled Bird:
+ Has been on the Duelists' Convocation banned list (not allowed in a deck)
for Type I and Type II tournaments since 01/25/94 because it is only used
in games for Ante. Now banned in Type II because it is no longer in the
base set.
- - * - * - K - * - * - -
Krovikan Sorcerer:
+ The Fifth Edition version of the card has 2 abilities instead of one, but
the behavior of the card is identical to the Ice Age version since the
Ice Age one was modal. [D'Angelo 04/11/97] (See "Modal Effects" in the
General Rulings)
- - * - * - L - * - * - -
Land Tax:
+ Was on the Duelists' Convocation banned list (none allowed in a deck) for
Type II tournaments from 01/01/97 to 04/24/97 and is now banned because
it is no longer in the base set. It was previously on the restricted list
(only 1 per deck) for Type II tournaments from 07/01/96 to 01/01/97.
Leviathan:
+ The Fifth Edition version has an activation cost on the untap ability where
The Dark and Fourth Edition versions did not. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
Library of Leng:
+ The Fifth Edition version no longer has the reminder text that you can look
at a randomly discarded card before choosing where it goes. This is
still true, however. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
Livonya Silone:
+ This is the only card that can get the class Legendary Landwalk. No other
Landwalk card can grant this broad ability. [D'Angelo 03/26/97]
- - * - * - M - * - * - -
Magus of the Unseen:
+ The Fifth Edition version clearly states that it is only tapped if it
returns at end of turn where the Ice Age version had errata to say this.
[D'Angelo 04/11/97]
Malignant Growth:
+ It has one packet of X damage, not X packets of one damage. [Aahz 03/17/97]
Mana Vault:
+ The Fifth Edition card text is "Mana Vault does not untap during your untap
phase. At the end of your upkeep, if Mana Vault is tapped, it deals 1
damage to you. {4}: Untap Mana Vault at end of upkeep. Use this ability
only during your upkeep. {Tap}: Add three colorless mana to your mana
pool. Play this ability as a mana source."
+ Because both the damage and untapping are done at end of upkeep, you can
choose to either untap it first or take the damage first.
[D'Angelo 04/11/97] I can't think of too many reasons to want to take
the damage, though.
+ The Fifth Edition version has the untap ability used at the end of upkeep
instead of during upkeep. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
Mind Ravel:
+ The Fifth Edition version has you draw a card at the beginning of the next
turn while the Ice Age version has you draw at the beginning of the next
turn's upkeep. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
Mindstab Thrull:
+ The Fifth Edition version's ability has an activation cost and is played as
an instant. The Fallen Empires version was played as a triggered effect
at the end of blocking declaration. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
Mind Twist:
+ Has been on the Duelist Convocation banned list (not allowed in decks) for
Type I and Type II since 02/01/96. It was on the restricted list (only 1
per deck) for Type I and Type II tournaments from 08/01/94 to 02/01/96.
Now banned in Type II because it is no longer in the base set.
Mind Whip:
+ The payment is an upkeep cost managed by the enchantment and is not
considered to be on the creature itself. This means that you can use the
abilities of the creature prior to paying the upkeep cost.
[Duelist Magazine #11, Page 56]
- - * - * - N - * - * - -
Necrite:
+ The Fifth Edition version's ability has an activation cost and is played as
an instant. The Fallen Empires version was played as a triggered effect
at the end of blocking declaration. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
Necropotence:
+ Removing Necropotence from play will not cause the cards under it to be
buried. They are considered as being held by the original effect and
are just put under the Necropotence for convenience. [Aahz 01/15/96]
You get the cards during your next discard phase.
- - * - * - O - * - * - -
Ogre Enforcer:
+ It is in no way protected from being destroyed or buried due to non-damage
effects. [D'Angelo 03/26/97]
Orcish Squatters:
+ The Fifth Edition version's ability has an activation cost and is played as
an instant. The Ice Age version was played as a triggered effect
at the end of blocking declaration. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
- - * - * - P - * - * - -
Panic:
+ The Fifth Edition version has you draw a card at the beginning of the next
turn while the Ice Age version has you draw at the beginning of the next
turn's upkeep. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
Portent:
+ The Fifth Edition version has you draw a card at the beginning of the next
turn while the Ice Age version has you draw at the beginning of the next
turn's upkeep. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
Primordial Ooze:
+ It becomes tapped even if the damage is prevented.
+ The Chronicles version gets a counter at the beginning of upkeep and the
Legends version does at the end of upkeep. [Duelist Magazine #7, Page 101]
The Fifth Edition version acts like the Legends version.
- - * - * - Q - * - * - -
- - * - * - R - * - * - -
Rabid Wombat:
+ Animate Dead does pump up the Wombat because it counts as a creature
enchantment. [Duelist Magazine #6, Page 131] (It is unclear if this
is still true, D'Angelo 04/11/97)
Rebirth:
+ Has always been on the Duelists' Convocation banned list (not allowed in a
deck) for Type I and Type II tournaments because it is only used in games
for Ante. Now banned in Type II because it is no longer in the base set.
Reinforcements:
+ You have to show the creatures you put on yop of your library, along with
the order you put them there. [D'Angelo 03/26/97]
- - * - * - S - * - * - -
Strip Mine:
+ Was on the Duelists' Convocation banned list (not allowed in a deck) for
Type II tournaments from 01/01/97 to 04/24/97 and is now banned because
it is not in the base set. It was on the restricted list (only 1 per
deck) for Type II from 10/01/96 to 01/01/97.
Sylvan Library:
+ If you have drawn cards prior to your draw phase, they can be ones chosen
to be put back using this effect. [D'Angelo 03/21/97] For example, a
cantrip draw or a fast effect used during upkeep.
+ If you have several ways to draw during your draw phase, you can do them in
any order. For example your regular draw, 2 Howling Mines and a Sylvan
Library. You can do the Library first (draw 2 and put 2) back, then your
3 other draws. Or you can do your 3 draws, then the Library (which lets
you put back any 2 of the 5 cards you drew). Or you can do some of the
draws before and some after the library. [D'Angelo 03/21/97]
+ The Fifth Edition version has an activation cost while the Legends and
Fourth Edition versions did not. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
- - * - * - T - * - * - -
Tempest Efreet:
+ Has been on the Duelists' Convocation banned list (not allowed in a deck)
for Type I tournaments since 08/01/94 because it is only used in games
for Ante. Has always been on the Type II banned list and is now banned
because it is not in the base set.
Thawing Glaciers:
+ Has been on the Duelists' Convocation banned list (not allowed in a deck)
for Ice Age and Ice Age/Alliances tournaments since 05/01/97.
[Tourney Update 04/01/97]
Time Elemental:
+ The Fifth Edition version says to bury it instead of destroy it as the
Legends and Fourth Edition versions said. But the old versions had errata
to be a bury anyway, so there's no change in how it is played.
[D'Angelo 04/11/97]
Timmerian Fiends:
+ Has always been on the Duelists' Convocation banned list (not allowed in a
deck) for Type I and Type II tournaments because it is only used in games
for Ante. Now banned in Type II since Homelands is no longer legal.
Touch of Death:
+ The Fifth Edition version has you draw a card at the beginning of the next
turn while the Ice Age version has you draw at the beginning of the next
turn's upkeep. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
- - * - * - U - * - * - -
Updraft:
+ The Fifth Edition version has you draw a card at the beginning of the next
turn while the Ice Age version has you draw at the beginning of the next
turn's upkeep. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
Urza's Bauble:
+ You draw a card on the turn after you use the effect. [Aahz 06/08/95]
+ The Fifth Edition version has you draw a card at the beginning of the next
turn while the Ice Age version has you draw at the beginning of the next
turn's upkeep. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
- - * - * - V - * - * - -
- - * - * - W - * - * - -
Word of Command:
+ The spell being cast by Word of Command's effect can be interrupted as
normal. It just is being cast at an unusual time which does not allow
non-interrupt responses. [D'Angelo 03/26/97]
+ If there is a non-mana way to cast a spell, as with Pitch Spells, you may
require that way to be used if it is possible to do so.
[D'Angelo 03/26/97]
- - * - * - X - * - * - -
- - * - * - Y - * - * - -
- - * - * - Z - * - * - -
Zuran Orb:
+ Has been on the Duelists' Convocation banned list (not allowed in a deck)
for Ice Age and Ice Age/Alliances tournaments since 05/01/97. Was on the
restricted list from 11/01/95 until 05/01/97.
Acknowledgments and Disclaimers
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While this work is not officially issued by Wizards of the Coast, it does
represent the collected rulings from official sanctioned representatives
of and publications by Wizards of the Coast.
This summary is collected from rulings made by officials and network
representatives of Wizards of the Coast, along with a number of
unofficial rulings also collected from the net. Whenever a source for
a ruling is known, the name of that person is listed with the ruling.
"bethmo" is Beth Moursund, the network representative for the "mtg-l"
mailing list. "D'Angelo" is Stephen D'Angelo, the previous "mtg-l"
representative. "Peterson" is Paul Peterson, the previous "mtg-l"
representative. "bethmo" was also the representative before Paul.
"Aahz" is Tom Wylie, the Magic Rules Guru. "DeLaney" is David Delaney,
the network representative for the "rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules"
newsgroup. "Snark" is Dave Howell of WotC. Official rulings from the
rules team are marked as "WotC Rules Team". Rules from the Mirage rule
book are marked with "Mirage Page #". Errata from the Magic Official
Encyclopedia are marked with "Encyclopedia Page #".
These files may be freely copied and posted anywhere you'd like. The
contents can also be included in other formats (such as HTML or databases)
or in products, but there are two restrictions. I insist that the files
are not sold for profit. Anything you put them in must be available at
no more than cost of duplication. Also, you must give credit to me and
list the version date your work is derived from. Thanks.
Every attempt has been made to make this summary accurate, but errors do
creep in. Nothing in this work is guaranteed to be accurate. Use at your
own risk.
Magic: The Gathering and all of the cards listed herein are copyrighted by
Wizards of the Coast.
Paul Barclay
dan...@netcom.com (Stephen D''Angelo) writes:
>Card Rulings
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> - - * - * - A - * - * - -
>Animate Artifact:
>+ If the artifact was in play on your side before you animated it, you may
> use it immediately.
This isn't correct, as it doesn't take into account Summoning Sickness
correctly (probably a bit of a typo).
>Armageddon Clock:
>+ While other players can play the counter removal effect, the controller of
> the Clock is considered to be the controller of those effects.
> [D'Angelo 03/26/97]
Yeuch. I control an effect that my opponent plays. Who has priority for
interrupting it, the controller or the announcer? Who pays for any Triggered
Effects that might counter it?
> - - * - * - E - * - * - -
>Erosion:
>+ The payment is an upkeep cost managed by the enchantment and is not
> considered to be on the land itself. This means that you can use the
> abilities of the land prior to paying the upkeep cost.
> [Duelist Magazine #11, Page 56]
Hey, how to make a really sucky card even more sucky.
> - - * - * - F - * - * - -
>Firestorm Phoenix:
>+ It may not be summoned again until your next turn, but it can be put into
> play by effects such as Flash or Eureka. [Aahz 04/07/97]
The question is: How does it know? It should lose all memory as it moves from
Graveyard to Hand. If I have one Poenix in my hand, and one in play which is
destroyed, I have one Phoenix in my hand which can't be cast and one which can
be. How do I know which is which? If I then Hymn to Tourach myself, and
discard _one_ of them at random, can I cast the other one?
> - - * - * - G - * - * - -
>Giant Oyster:
>+ If the Oyster untaps before the putting of a -1/-1 counter on the creature
> happens, the -1/-1 counter goes on when the effect resolves and then is
> removed immediately. [Aahz 12/07/96] The effects of the -1/-1 counter,
> including possible death of the creature, are applied before the counter
> is removed. [D'Angelo 04/07/97]
We seem to have an Effect speed conflict here. Death through toughness
reduction must be slower than the removal of the counter. Here's why: You
can't tap a Llanowar Elf for mana if you steal it with a Seasinger which is
untapped before it's effect happens (assume Concordant Crossroads is in play).
Since both the Oyster and the Seasinger work in an identical manner, and mana
sources can be used whenever a creature is dying due to reduced toughness (for
Regeneration among other things), there can't be enough time for the creature
to die. It's the Game Effect thing all over again.
> - - * - * - L - * - * - -
>Livonya Silone:
>+ This is the only card that can get the class Legendary Landwalk. No other
> Landwalk card can grant this broad ability. [D'Angelo 03/26/97]
Illusionary Presence? It can gain _any_ landwalk ability.
> - - * - * - M - * - * - -
>Mana Vault:
>+ The Fifth Edition card text is "Mana Vault does not untap during your untap
> phase. At the end of your upkeep, if Mana Vault is tapped, it deals 1
> damage to you. {4}: Untap Mana Vault at end of upkeep. Use this ability
> only during your upkeep. {Tap}: Add three colorless mana to your mana
> pool. Play this ability as a mana source."
>+ Because both the damage and untapping are done at end of upkeep, you can
> choose to either untap it first or take the damage first.
> [D'Angelo 04/11/97] I can't think of too many reasons to want to take
> the damage, though.
>+ The Fifth Edition version has the untap ability used at the end of upkeep
> instead of during upkeep. [D'Angelo 04/11/97]
No, it doesn't. It has the results applied at the end of the upkeep, but the
effect is played during Upkeep. Not really a significant difference, though.
> - - * - * - N - * - * - -
>Necropotence:
>+ Removing Necropotence from play will not cause the cards under it to be
> buried. They are considered as being held by the original effect and
> are just put under the Necropotence for convenience. [Aahz 01/15/96]
> You get the cards during your next discard phase.
Good. Now (Dave, this is really adressed to you), how about asking Tom to
bring all the other "set aside" cards such as Purgatory into line with this?
Please? Pretty please? With sugar on top?
Paul Barclay.
Ingo Warnke
Paul Barclay (PB...@cam.ac.uk) wrote:
: >Firestorm Phoenix:
: >+ It may not be summoned again until your next turn, but it can be put into
: > play by effects such as Flash or Eureka. [Aahz 04/07/97]
: The question is: How does it know? It should lose all memory as it moves from
: Graveyard to Hand.
The card explicitely gives an exception to the normal 'forget anything'-rule.
: If I have one Poenix in my hand, and one in play which is
: destroyed, I have one Phoenix in my hand which can't be cast and one which can
: be. How do I know which is which? If I then Hymn to Tourach myself, and
: discard _one_ of them at random, can I cast the other one?
You would have to keep track which was which. This may be impracticle, but many
other things in Magic are that already, if taken to the extreme (like remem-
bering the order in which permanents entered play).
: >Giant Oyster:
: >+ If the Oyster untaps before the putting of a -1/-1 counter on the creature
: > happens, the -1/-1 counter goes on when the effect resolves and then is
: > removed immediately. [Aahz 12/07/96] The effects of the -1/-1 counter,
: > including possible death of the creature, are applied before the counter
: > is removed. [D'Angelo 04/07/97]
: We seem to have an Effect speed conflict here. Death through toughness
: reduction must be slower than the removal of the counter. Here's why: You
: can't tap a Llanowar Elf for mana if you steal it with a Seasinger which is
: untapped before it's effect happens (assume Concordant Crossroads is in play).
Are you sure about this? It is the analogy to the Oyster, but I would rather
think that the Elf can be tapped. I guess what you suggest is that the old
rule about tap'n'hold effects coming into effect always (however short) is
reversed.
Ingo Warnke
Paul Barclay
nfa...@hp1.uni-rostock.de (Ingo Warnke) writes:
>Paul Barclay (PB...@cam.ac.uk) wrote:
>: >Giant Oyster:
>: >+ If the Oyster untaps before the putting of a -1/-1 counter on the creature
>: > happens, the -1/-1 counter goes on when the effect resolves and then is
>: > removed immediately. [Aahz 12/07/96] The effects of the -1/-1 counter,
>: > including possible death of the creature, are applied before the counter
>: > is removed. [D'Angelo 04/07/97]
>: We seem to have an Effect speed conflict here. Death through toughness
>: reduction must be slower than the removal of the counter. Here's why: You
>: can't tap a Llanowar Elf for mana if you steal it with a Seasinger which is
>: untapped before it's effect happens (assume Concordant Crossroads is in play).
>
>Are you sure about this? It is the analogy to the Oyster, but I would rather
>think that the Elf can be tapped. I guess what you suggest is that the old
>rule about tap'n'hold effects coming into effect always (however short) is
>reversed.
It's a good test to see whether some of the theories about game structure that
I devised actually work. This is just about the first time that a question
could be answered by referring to theory, rather than rulings. Remember that
all the "Tap and hold" effects are continuous effect style effects, and would
be applied in the same manner as normal Continuous Effects (I call them
"Temporary Continuous Effects" (TCE), as this describes them pretty well,
and can be abbreviated nicely).
Continuous Effect calculations are done before Mana Sources can be used, so
even though the effect does actually happen, it will both happen and end at
Continuous Effect "speed". There will be a change of control, which could
trigger Triggered Effects, give Summoning Sickness, and end other TCEs.
So, my answer is: No, I'm not sure, but if I'm wrong, then it's time for
another re-think about the theory.
Paul Barclay.
Ingo Warnke
Paul Barclay (PB...@cam.ac.uk) wrote:
: It's a good test to see whether some of the theories about game structure that
: I devised actually work. This is just about the first time that a question
: could be answered by referring to theory, rather than rulings. Remember that
: all the "Tap and hold" effects are continuous effect style effects, and would
: be applied in the same manner as normal Continuous Effects (I call them
: "Temporary Continuous Effects" (TCE), as this describes them pretty well,
: and can be abbreviated nicely).
: Continuous Effect calculations are done before Mana Sources can be used, so
: even though the effect does actually happen, it will both happen and end at
: Continuous Effect "speed". There will be a change of control, which could
: trigger Triggered Effects, give Summoning Sickness, and end other TCEs.
I don't think that in your theory (which is also my theory) the TCE would
ever happen.
When the effect creating the TCE resolves, it will create the TCE with its
ending condition. Assuming that the ending condition is already met at this
time, the TCE has ended immediately. There was never a time when it was really
in effect, because at the time when CE's are calculated, it found that it
should not apply, as it already weared off.
So I reverse my previuos position and think that in this theory the ruling
is wrong. If I want to fix the theory or the ruling I'm not sure at the moment.
Ingo Warnke
Paul Barclay
nfa...@hp1.uni-rostock.de (Ingo Warnke) writes:
>Paul Barclay (PB...@cam.ac.uk) wrote:
>: It's a good test to see whether some of the theories about game structure that
>: I devised actually work. This is just about the first time that a question
>: could be answered by referring to theory, rather than rulings. Remember that
>: all the "Tap and hold" effects are continuous effect style effects, and would
>: be applied in the same manner as normal Continuous Effects (I call them
>: "Temporary Continuous Effects" (TCE), as this describes them pretty well,
>: and can be abbreviated nicely).
>: Continuous Effect calculations are done before Mana Sources can be used, so
>: even though the effect does actually happen, it will both happen and end at
>: Continuous Effect "speed". There will be a change of control, which could
>: trigger Triggered Effects, give Summoning Sickness, and end other TCEs.
>I don't think that in your theory (which is also my theory) the TCE would
>ever happen.
Possibly. I have to base theory on the availible rulings, though, so at the
moment, this is what would happen, even using the theory. Whether or not it's
the right thing to happen or not is another story.
>When the effect creating the TCE resolves, it will create the TCE with its
>ending condition. Assuming that the ending condition is already met at this
>time, the TCE has ended immediately. There was never a time when it was really
>in effect, because at the time when CE's are calculated, it found that it
>should not apply, as it already weared off.
That would be the ideal solution. However, most of the cards are worded "Do X
until Y becomes true", and not "Do X whilst Z is true". The first is an
absolute statement that X happens, and then X will stop happening when Y
happens. The second says that X will only happen if Z is true when the effect
starts.
Since both of these changes of control (in the Seasinger example) happen at
faster-than-atomic speeds, does the game actually see them? The game certainly
isn't bothered about the intermediate results of CE calculations, so I think
that in this case, the changes of control would certainly happen, but nothing
would know that they had happened, so no Summoning Sickness would be given to
the creature ("Nope, I didn't see you move").
Paul Barclay.
Joachim Tabaczek
In article <PB207.511...@cam.ac.uk>, PB...@cam.ac.uk (Paul Barclay) writes:
|> dan...@netcom.com (Stephen D''Angelo) writes:
|> >+ While other players can play the counter removal effect, the controller of
|> > the Clock is considered to be the controller of those effects.
|> > [D'Angelo 03/26/97]
|>
|> interrupting it, the controller or the announcer?
The controller, I'd say. [Interrupts ask `Whose spell is this?' when
determining priority, so apparently they're asking about the controller.]
|> Who pays for any Triggered
|> Effects that might counter it?
Depends on whether these effects talk about someone `playing an ability'
or `the ability's controller'.
|> >Firestorm Phoenix:
|> >+ It may not be summoned again until your next turn, but it can be put into
|> > play by effects such as Flash or Eureka. [Aahz 04/07/97]
|>
|> The question is: How does it know? It should lose all memory as it moves from
|> Graveyard to Hand.
It should lose its memory according to the rules; apparently it breaks
them. Cards have been known to do so.
|> If I have one Poenix in my hand, and one in play which is
|> destroyed, I have one Phoenix in my hand which can't be cast and one which can
|> be. How do I know which is which?
Just remember which card you just got back and which one you didn't.
|> If I then Hymn to Tourach myself, and
|> discard _one_ of them at random, can I cast the other one?
Depends on which one you just discarded. It shouldn't be that difficult
to remember which of two cards is which.
|> >Giant Oyster:
|> >+ If the Oyster untaps before the putting of a -1/-1 counter on the creature
|> > happens, the -1/-1 counter goes on when the effect resolves and then is
|> > removed immediately. [Aahz 12/07/96] The effects of the -1/-1 counter,
|> > including possible death of the creature, are applied before the counter
|> > is removed. [D'Angelo 04/07/97]
|>
|> We seem to have an Effect speed conflict here. Death through toughness
|> reduction must be slower than the removal of the counter. Here's why: You
|> can't tap a Llanowar Elf for mana if you steal it with a Seasinger which is
|> untapped before it's effect happens (assume Concordant Crossroads is in play).
|> Since both the Oyster and the Seasinger work in an identical manner, and mana
|> sources can be used whenever a creature is dying due to reduced toughness (for
|> Regeneration among other things), there can't be enough time for the creature
|> to die. It's the Game Effect thing all over again.
Now this is way above my head... I'd assume that both the Oyster's effect
ending `immediately' and death from lethal damage are rule triggers,
but who knows?
|> >Necropotence:
|> >+ Removing Necropotence from play will not cause the cards under it to be
|> > buried. They are considered as being held by the original effect and
|> > are just put under the Necropotence for convenience. [Aahz 01/15/96]
|> > You get the cards during your next discard phase.
|>
|> Good. Now (Dave, this is really adressed to you), how about asking Tom to
|> bring all the other "set aside" cards such as Purgatory into line with this?
|> Please? Pretty please? With sugar on top?
Because Purgatory _says_ to remove all cards under it from the game if
it leaves play, and Necropotence doesn't.
Joachim
Ingo Warnke
Paul Barclay (PB...@cam.ac.uk) wrote:
: Since both of these changes of control (in the Seasinger example) happen at
: faster-than-atomic speeds, does the game actually see them? The game certainly
: isn't bothered about the intermediate results of CE calculations, so I think
: that in this case, the changes of control would certainly happen, but nothing
: would know that they had happened, so no Summoning Sickness would be given to
: the creature ("Nope, I didn't see you move").
Well, I don't even think that they should ever happen. The effect that changed
control was never under a condition where it applied. This is true for the new
5E template, the FE Seasinger has a triggered effect responsible for the
ending of the effect. But the rulings made them already work differently than
printed. I think tap'n'hold effects are just a category of effects that grew by
rulings and now it is hard to find a template that fits all the rulings.
Maybe Dave can ask if they want the old rulings to be in effect still, or if
they want (at least the reprinted cards) to work as printed. Specifically, Dave
could ask if a creature stolen by Seasinger is still considered to have
changed sides if the Seasinger is untaped when the steal effect resolves.
Ingo Warnke
Paul Barclay
In article <E8zuG...@hermes.hrz.uni-bielefeld.de> taba...@physik.uni-bielefeld.de (Joachim Tabaczek) writes:
>|> >Necropotence:
>|> >+ Removing Necropotence from play will not cause the cards under it to be
>|> > buried. They are considered as being held by the original effect and
>|> > are just put under the Necropotence for convenience. [Aahz 01/15/96]
>|> > You get the cards during your next discard phase.
>|>
>|> Good. Now (Dave, this is really adressed to you), how about asking Tom to
>|> bring all the other "set aside" cards such as Purgatory into line with this?
>|> Please? Pretty please? With sugar on top?
>Because Purgatory _says_ to remove all cards under it from the game if
>it leaves play, and Necropotence doesn't.
The point is that the cards would reach Purgatory _after_ it leaves play, so
it wouldn't be able to remove them from the game (assuming that Purgatory and
the creatures are destroyed at the same time). It's a case of either having
the card create the location (which is the way Purgatory was ruled (possibly
incorrectly) to work), or the location to exist independantly of whether the
card is in play (which is the case for Necropotence).
Paul Barclay.
David DeLaney
>>+ While other players can play the counter removal effect, the controller of
>> the Clock is considered to be the controller of those effects.
>
The controller of the effect [the Clock's controller] has priority to
interrupt it, which can be different from the player who's paying to use it.
I believe stuff like Nether Void goes into terminal confusion... but would
say, as a first attempt, that the controller has to pay any extra costs...
[I'll ask.]
>>Firestorm Phoenix:
>>+ It may not be summoned again until your next turn, but it can be put into
>> play by effects such as Flash or Eureka. [Aahz 04/07/97]
>
>The question is: How does it know? It should lose all memory as it moves from
>Graveyard to Hand.
The card says so specifically ... which overrides the Rule.
If I have one Poenix in my hand, and one in play which is
>destroyed, I have one Phoenix in my hand which can't be cast and one which can
>be. How do I know which is which?
You gotta keep track.
If I then Hymn to Tourach myself, and
>discard _one_ of them at random, can I cast the other one?
50% of the time you can; you have to remember which was which, because one
of them has an effect affecting it in your hand, even though effects normally
can't do this.
>>Livonya Silone:
>>+ This is the only card that can get the class Legendary Landwalk. No other
>> Landwalk card can grant this broad ability. [D'Angelo 03/26/97]
>
>Illusionary Presence? It can gain _any_ landwalk ability.
But it's still restricted to types of land, which they've decided does _not_
include "legendary landwalk". Livonya's special.
>>Necropotence:
>>+ Removing Necropotence from play will not cause the cards under it to be
>> buried. They are considered as being held by the original effect and
>> are just put under the Necropotence for convenience. [Aahz 01/15/96]
>> You get the cards during your next discard phase.
>
>Good. Now (Dave, this is really adressed to you), how about asking Tom to
>bring all the other "set aside" cards such as Purgatory into line with this?
The other "set aside" cards have different instructions; the ones that _say_
to bury cards set aside when the permanent leaves play really do mean it.
Necropotence doesn't say this, so the cards stay in Set Aside until the
time expires for the original effect.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Ingo Kemper
On 23 Apr 1997 00:43:50 GMT, d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu (David DeLaney)
wrote:
>>>Livonya Silone:
>>>+ This is the only card that can get the class Legendary Landwalk. No other
>>> Landwalk card can grant this broad ability. [D'Angelo 03/26/97]
>>
>>Illusionary Presence? It can gain _any_ landwalk ability.
>
>But it's still restricted to types of land, which they've decided does _not_
>include "legendary landwalk". Livonya's special.
Hmm... then D'Angelos files need to be updated. The entry for
Illusionary Presence still reads:
: Illusionary Presence:
: Can give a basic land landwalk, a specific type of snow-covered
: landwalk, legendary landwalk (all legendary lands), or a specific
: non-basic landwalk (like Maze of Ith-Walk). You cannot choose
: all snow-covered lands or all non-snow-covered lands.
: [Duelist Magazine #7, Page 99]
__ _ __ __ __ __
__/ /_/ \/ /_/____/_ |___Sky...@uni-muenster.de___---===> \
/_/ /_/\_/ |__/ |__/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---===>__/
Joachim Tabaczek
In article <PB207.520...@cam.ac.uk>, PB...@cam.ac.uk (Paul Barclay) writes:
|> In article <E8zuG...@hermes.hrz.uni-bielefeld.de> taba...@physik.uni-bielefeld.de (Joachim Tabaczek) writes:
|>
|> >|> >+ Removing Necropotence from play will not cause the cards under it to be
|> >|> > buried. They are considered as being held by the original effect and
|> >|> > are just put under the Necropotence for convenience. [Aahz 01/15/96]
|> >|> > You get the cards during your next discard phase.
|> >|>
|> >|> bring all the other "set aside" cards such as Purgatory into line with this?
|>
|> >Because Purgatory _says_ to remove all cards under it from the game if
|> >it leaves play, and Necropotence doesn't.
|>
|> The point is that the cards would reach Purgatory _after_ it leaves play, so
|> it wouldn't be able to remove them from the game (assuming that Purgatory and
|> the creatures are destroyed at the same time). It's a case of either having
|> the card create the location (which is the way Purgatory was ruled (possibly
|> incorrectly) to work), or the location to exist independantly of whether the
|> card is in play (which is the case for Necropotence).
|>
|> Paul Barclay.
I still don't quite see the problem. If Purgatory and a creature both
leave play at the same time, Purgatory's effect triggers and tries to
put the creature under Purgatory... which, however, is no longer there
when the effect resolves; so it fails. Necropotence, on the other hand,
does _not_ try to put anything under itself; it just creates a delayed
effect, which doesn't need to have its source still in play to resolve.
Joachim
David DeLaney
nfa...@hp1.uni-rostock.de (Ingo Warnke) writes:
>Maybe Dave can ask if they want the old rulings to be in effect still, or if
>they want (at least the reprinted cards) to work as printed. Specifically, Dave
>could ask if a creature stolen by Seasinger is still considered to have
>changed sides if the Seasinger is untaped when the steal effect resolves.
I believe they do still want it to work that way, and for instance for the
stolen-and-returned creature to still be sick. I will ask, though, because
along with you-all it's not clear to me either what sort of speed is
involved in the premature ending of a tap-and-hold effect. [Do we have
enough time while the creature is on the other side for it to be sacrificed
to Sacrifice? for it to be affected by and killed by Vampirism or Vibrating
Sphere? etc.]
Paul Barclay
d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu (David DeLaney) writes:
>nfa...@hp1.uni-rostock.de (Ingo Warnke) writes:
>>Maybe Dave can ask if they want the old rulings to be in effect still, or if
>>they want (at least the reprinted cards) to work as printed. Specifically, Dave
>>could ask if a creature stolen by Seasinger is still considered to have
>>changed sides if the Seasinger is untaped when the steal effect resolves.
>I believe they do still want it to work that way, and for instance for the
>stolen-and-returned creature to still be sick. I will ask, though, because
>along with you-all it's not clear to me either what sort of speed is
>involved in the premature ending of a tap-and-hold effect. [Do we have
>enough time while the creature is on the other side for it to be sacrificed
>to Sacrifice? for it to be affected by and killed by Vampirism or Vibrating
>Sphere? etc.]
It might be better to suggest a workable solution than to ask a theoretical
question to Tom. I suggest No(mana source), Yes (affected), No(killed) as
answers.
Paul Barclay.
Paul Barclay
d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu (David DeLaney) writes:
>PB...@cam.ac.uk (Paul Barclay) writes:
>>>Livonya Silone:
>>>+ This is the only card that can get the class Legendary Landwalk. No other
>>> Landwalk card can grant this broad ability. [D'Angelo 03/26/97]
>>
>>Illusionary Presence? It can gain _any_ landwalk ability.
>But it's still restricted to types of land, which they've decided does _not_
>include "legendary landwalk". Livonya's special.
The card says (said?) that it could gain _any_ landwalk ability, though.
>>>Necropotence:
>>>+ Removing Necropotence from play will not cause the cards under it to be
>>> buried. They are considered as being held by the original effect and
>>> are just put under the Necropotence for convenience. [Aahz 01/15/96]
>>> You get the cards during your next discard phase.
>>
>>Good. Now (Dave, this is really adressed to you), how about asking Tom to
>>bring all the other "set aside" cards such as Purgatory into line with this?
>The other "set aside" cards have different instructions; the ones that _say_
>to bury cards set aside when the permanent leaves play really do mean it.
>Necropotence doesn't say this, so the cards stay in Set Aside until the
>time expires for the original effect.
I think that I asked the wrong question. The bit about "bringing into line"
was referring to the zone "set aside under/on top of/over there". Since
Necropotence's Set Aside zone can operate independantly of Necropotence, why
can't Purgatory's:
Purgatory and Naf's Asp in play. Your opponent blows a Nevinyrral's Disk. Two
effects trigger: Purgatory's "Remove all creature cards under me from the
game" (triggered by Purgatory leaving play), and Purgatory's "Put that
creature face up under Purgatory in the "set aside" zone" (triggered by the
Naf's Asp leaving play). Assume that you deal with them in that order. The old
ruling is that the Naf's Asp can't go to the "Set Aside" zone because it can't
be put "under Purgatory". I just think that this ruling is a bit odd in that a
card's abscence from one zone limits whether a card can move between two other
zones. The "Under Purgatory" instruction seems to be more of a bookkeeping
statement than anything else - it's just instructing you to keep them seperate
from other things in the "Set Aside" zone.
Paul Barclay.