Untap phase question

Tim Kilgore

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Sep 16, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/16/97

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Here is the situation...

At the end of my last turn, I drop a Fire Whip on my Brass Man. I still
have a couple of untapped mountains which do not get tapped during my
opponents turn....

My turn starts, uptap phase. I whip with the Brass Man. I have not
untapped anything just yet. I tap an untapped mountain, untap the Brass
Man, whip again, repeat. I then untap ALL of the mountains (as to include
those that had been uptapped at the beginning of the phase) and continue
whipping away with the Brass Man until my mana is expended.

Is this a legal play? Can I tap and later untap (only once) a land during
the uptap phase? Or should I do this when a player announces the end of
his turn?

I plan on the latter since it will prevent misunderstandings, but if the
Brass Man has summoning sickness, I would like to use whatever mana is
available to me at the start of my next turn. So, if using the mana during
the untap phase isn't possible, is there a point during my turn before the
untap phase where I can use the mana and still have it untap during the
untap phase?

Thanks in advance!

Tim

--
Tim's VB *5* Tips & Tricks
[http://www.missouri.edu/~finaidtk]

Kyle Nishioka

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Sep 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/17/97

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Tim Kilgore (fina...@showme.missouri.edu) wrote:
: Here is the situation...

: At the end of my last turn, I drop a Fire Whip on my Brass Man. I still
: have a couple of untapped mountains which do not get tapped during my
: opponents turn....

: My turn starts, uptap phase. I whip with the Brass Man.

This is not legal, the Fire Whip ability is not allowed during the untap
phase.

: I have not

: untapped anything just yet. I tap an untapped mountain, untap the Brass
: Man, whip again, repeat. I then untap ALL of the mountains (as to include
: those that had been uptapped at the beginning of the phase) and continue
: whipping away with the Brass Man until my mana is expended.

Untapping the Brass Man during the upkeep is legal, you may then use the
Whip's ability and repeat. You cannot use either abilities during the
untap phase.

: Or should I do this when a player announces the end of his turn?

You can use the Fire Whip ability during your opponent's turn but the
Brass Man's ability is only allowed during your upkeep.

: I plan on the latter since it will prevent misunderstandings, but if the

: Brass Man has summoning sickness, I would like to use whatever mana is
: available to me at the start of my next turn. So, if using the mana during
: the untap phase isn't possible, is there a point during my turn before the
: untap phase where I can use the mana and still have it untap during the
: untap phase?

No, the untap phase does not allow normal instant speed spells/abilities
and there is no phase before the untap phase.

--
Kyle
nk...@hawaii.edu

#include <std_disclaimer.h>
#include <blue_ribbon>

Stephan Feinen

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Sep 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/17/97

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"Tim Kilgore" <fina...@showme.missouri.edu> writes:

>At the end of my last turn, I drop a Fire Whip on my Brass Man. I still
>have a couple of untapped mountains which do not get tapped during my
>opponents turn....

>My turn starts, uptap phase. I whip with the Brass Man.

STOP!
You may not use fast effects during your untap phase (Mirage rulebook,p.46)
You will have to wait until after the beginning of your upkeep phase before
you may use the Fire Whipped Brass Man. At that point you may very well
tap the Brass Man, pay 1 mana to untap him, fire again and so on until all
of your mana is tapped again.

>Is this a legal play? Can I tap and later untap (only once) a land during

>the uptap phase? Or should I do this when a player announces the end of
>his turn?

You have to make some distinctions here. You may of course tap all your mana
at the beginning of your untap phase and then untap it. However as long as there
occurs no damage prevention phase as in the no well known City of Brass-trick,
you cannot use this mana for anything and will end up with mana burn.

>I plan on the latter since it will prevent misunderstandings, but if the
>Brass Man has summoning sickness, I would like to use whatever mana is
>available to me at the start of my next turn. So, if using the mana during
>the untap phase isn't possible, is there a point during my turn before the
>untap phase where I can use the mana and still have it untap during the
>untap phase?

There is no time during your turn before the untap phase. The start of your
untap phase is the mark of the beginning of your turn.
There is also no gap between each turns.
The only way to use your mana in the small time slice between start of untap
phase and untapping all permanents is to start an effect that triggers by the
tapping of a mana source (like the City of Brass) and then use some mana for
this effect. A possible combo would be to tap a swamp at the start of your untap
phase, use the black mana for a Dark Ritual (which is again a mana source) and
with this trigger an Onyx Talisman, which allows you to untap a permanent
(perhaps a meekstoned Giant).
After the resolution of this triggered effect, the swamp untaps along with
the rest of your lands and is reloaded again.

For normal purposes it is not possible to eat the cake and still have it 8-)
regards
stephan

--
Stephan Feinen, 52076 Aachen-Ofb., Im Steinfeld 1 ///
Internet: fei...@pool.informatik.rwth-aachen.de ///
\\\ ///
Only Amiga makes it possible (A4000/040/22 :-) \XX//

Ingo Kemper

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Sep 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/17/97

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On 16 Sep 1997 17:02:58 GMT, "Tim Kilgore"
<fina...@showme.missouri.edu> wrote:

>At the end of my last turn, I drop a Fire Whip on my Brass Man. I still
>have a couple of untapped mountains which do not get tapped during my
>opponents turn....
>

>My turn starts, uptap phase. I whip with the Brass Man. I have not

>untapped anything just yet. I tap an untapped mountain, untap the Brass
>Man, whip again, repeat. I then untap ALL of the mountains (as to include
>those that had been uptapped at the beginning of the phase) and continue
>whipping away with the Brass Man until my mana is expended.

No, this cannot be done for two reasons. First of all, you may not use
"normal" effects like the Brass Man with Fire Whip during your untap
phase. Mana sources are allowed, as are all triggered things, and
damage prevention and interrupts may be played if they get a time
window.
The second point: Brass Man's untap effect does only work during your
_upkeep_ phase. You _can't_ pay 1 at any other time to untap your
Brass Man.

>Is this a legal play? Can I tap and later untap (only once) a land during
>the uptap phase? Or should I do this when a player announces the end of
>his turn?

You can tap a land before you play your "mass untap", yes, but there
are not many things you can do with that mana during your untap phase.
(If you don't use it you'll get mana burn.)

You can use the Brass Man with Fire Whip during your opponent's
discard phase, but again you can only use it once, because you may not
use its own ability to untap it at that time.

>I plan on the latter since it will prevent misunderstandings, but if the
>Brass Man has summoning sickness, I would like to use whatever mana is
>available to me at the start of my next turn. So, if using the mana during
>the untap phase isn't possible, is there a point during my turn before the
>untap phase where I can use the mana and still have it untap during the
>untap phase?

There is no time during your turn "before your untap phase starts". (A
Time Vault creates a timing bubble between turns in order enable you
to skip your whole turn, but that's different.)

The "Brass Man with Fire Whip" combo only really works during your
upkeep phase.

__ _ __ __ __ __
__/ /_/ \/ /_/____/_ |___Sky...@uni-muenster.de___---===> \
/_/ /_/\_/ |__/ |__/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---===>__/

Anita Evans

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Sep 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/17/97

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"Ingo Kemper" <kem...@uni-muenster.de> wrote:

>
>You can tap a land before you play your "mass untap", yes, but there
>are not many things you can do with that mana during your untap phase.
>(If you don't use it you'll get mana burn.)
>
>

> __ _ __ __ __ __
> __/ /_/ \/ /_/____/_ |___Sky...@uni-muenster.de___---===> \
> /_/ /_/\_/ |__/ |__/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---===>__/

Mucho editing.

Anyway, can anyone give me an example of something that can happen that
you could use mana for other than 'Skipping a Turn effects'
I am trying to understand why this is not an incredibly moot point. Why
should you be allowed to draw mana in a phase where absolutely nothing
for the most part can happen. An example would be greatly appreciated.

Mike Marcelais

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Sep 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/17/97

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Tim Kilgore <fina...@showme.missouri.edu> wrote in article
<01bcc2c2$99033720$f471...@mu.missouri.edu>...
> Here is the situation...

>
> At the end of my last turn, I drop a Fire Whip on my Brass Man. I still
> have a couple of untapped mountains which do not get tapped during my
> opponents turn....
>
> My turn starts, uptap phase. I whip with the Brass Man. I have not
> untapped anything just yet.

Illegal. Fast effects are not legal during the untap phase. You cannot use
the Brass Man now.

> I tap an untapped mountain, untap the Brass
> Man, whip again, repeat.

Illegal, both for the reason above and for the fact that the Brass Man can
only be untapped for (1) during your upkeep, not your untap phase.

> Is this a legal play? Can I tap and later untap (only once) a land during
> the uptap phase? Or should I do this when a player announces the end of
> his turn?

This is completely illegal.

>
> I plan on the latter since it will prevent misunderstandings, but if the
> Brass Man has summoning sickness, I would like to use whatever mana is
> available to me at the start of my next turn. So, if using the mana during
> the untap phase isn't possible, is there a point during my turn before the
> untap phase where I can use the mana and still have it untap during the
> untap phase?

No.

Kevin Mendel

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Sep 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/17/97

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As per a thread recently, you can:

Tap City of Brass to generate a point of damage so that you can
enter damage prevention, cast a huge damage prevention spell, then
mana drain your own spell. Then you untap.

Kevin

Phaedrus

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Sep 17, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/17/97

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In article <5vpao5$air$1...@newbabylon.rs.itd.umich.edu>,

Anita Evans <Rece...@mcare.med.umich.edu> wrote:
>"Ingo Kemper" <kem...@uni-muenster.de> wrote:
>>You can tap a land before you play your "mass untap", yes, but there
>>are not many things you can do with that mana during your untap phase.
>>(If you don't use it you'll get mana burn.)

>Mucho editing.
>
>Anyway, can anyone give me an example of something that can happen that
>you could use mana for other than 'Skipping a Turn effects'
>I am trying to understand why this is not an incredibly moot point. Why
>should you be allowed to draw mana in a phase where absolutely nothing
>for the most part can happen. An example would be greatly appreciated.

I can use a mana source that creates a side effect, that then allows me
to do other things.
The classic example: I can tap a City of Brass. That tries to deal
damage to me, so it causes a damage prevention step, during which I can use
damage prevention spells and abilities. There was a thread a long while back--
the title was "<somebody> breaks the untap phase to win!"--that gave an
elaborate example of this.
--
\o\ If you're interested in books/stories with transformation themes, \o\
/o/ try <URL:http://www.halcyon.com/phaedrus/translist/translist.html>. /o/
\o\ New list entries always appreciated. FC1.21:FC(W/C)p6arw A- C->++ D>++ \o\
/o/ H+ M>+ P R T++++ W** Z+ Sm RLCT a cmn++++$ d e++ f+++ h- i++wf p-- sm# /o/

Bob Hanson

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Sep 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/18/97

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Anita Evans <Rece...@mcare.med.umich.edu> wrote:
> Anyway, can anyone give me an example of something that can happen that
> you could use mana for other than 'Skipping a Turn effects'
> I am trying to understand why this is not an incredibly moot point. Why
> should you be allowed to draw mana in a phase where absolutely nothing
> for the most part can happen. An example would be greatly appreciated.

What about paying 2 to stop the effect of receiving another poison
counter after being damaged by a Sabretooth Cobra.

Bob

David DeLaney

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Sep 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/18/97

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Anita Evans <Rece...@mcare.med.umich.edu> writes:
>"Ingo Kemper" <kem...@uni-muenster.de> wrote:
>>You can tap a land before you play your "mass untap", yes, but there
>>are not many things you can do with that mana during your untap phase.
>>(If you don't use it you'll get mana burn.)
>

>Anyway, can anyone give me an example of something that can happen that
>you could use mana for other than 'Skipping a Turn effects'

Sure.

If you tap a City of Brass for mana, you'll take 1 damage as a triggered
ability. During untap phase. Then a damage-prevention step will pop open.
During untap phase. And you can cast an Alabaster Potion. During the d-p
step during untap phase ... and then you can use your Nacre Talisman's
triggered ability to untap your City of Brass ... and then you can Rust the
Talisman so the ability is countered. Etc., etc. You can't use anything
but series stuff - no batches of instants [except for any damage-prevention that
pops open] - whenever instants aren't legal. But series stuff is basically
useable whenever the correct scenario occurs, and interrupts are useable
whenever a non-mana source is cast or an appropriate ability's used, etc.

>I am trying to understand why this is not an incredibly moot point. Why
>should you be allowed to draw mana in a phase where absolutely nothing
>for the most part can happen. An example would be greatly appreciated.

The "for the most part", basically. Plus there's no good reason _not_ to
let you do so. It makes the rules for when you can use mana sources _much_
simpler, as anyone who was here from Revised on can tell you...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://panacea.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ/ I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

Ingo Warnke

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Sep 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/18/97

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Ruediger Bess (be...@faui57g.informatik.uni-erlangen.de) wrote:
: The only thing I do not understand is: why didn't he play the Alabaster
: Potion - Mana
: Drain trick at the end of his opponents discard phase? Maybe a City of

IIRC there was some mana generating creature (I think Fyndhorn Elder) that
phased in untapped. He used the mana from this creature for the Alabaster
Potion, which was impossible at the end of opponents turn.

Ingo Warnke

Ingo Kemper

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Sep 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/18/97

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On 18 Sep 1997 11:54:12 GMT, Anita Evans
<Rece...@mcare.med.umich.edu> wrote:

>Other than pain lands/cities is there any other way to suffer damage
>during your upkeep? (not including mana burn at the end which is loss of
>life anyway)

During your _upkeep_? There are hundreds of ways to damage yourself
during your upkeep, because most abilities of permanents and normal
instants are legal at that time. Use Tim on yourself. Cast Lightning
Bolt on yourself. Don't pay the upkeep for a Force of Nature. ...

In case you were talking about your _untap_ phase: Yes, there are some
ways to damage yourself, but almost all of them begin with a mana
source (bcause that's the only thing you can use without restrictions
- interrupts need something they interrupt, damage prevention needs
damage, and triggered effects need something to trigger off). For
example, you could sacrifice a creature to Ashnod's Altar while a
Dingus Staff is in play. (I can't think of a triggered effect that
triggers on untapping a permanent, but that's the only thing that can
trigger effects without using a mana source during your untap phase.)

Ingo Kemper
--

Ruediger Bess

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Sep 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/18/97

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Ingo Kemper wrote:
>
> On 18 Sep 1997 11:54:12 GMT, Anita Evans
> <Rece...@mcare.med.umich.edu> wrote:
>
> >Other than pain lands/cities is there any other way to suffer damage
> >during your upkeep? (not including mana burn at the end which is loss of
> >life anyway)

[...]

> Dingus Staff is in play. (I can't think of a triggered effect that
> triggers on untapping a permanent, but that's the only thing that can
> trigger effects without using a mana source during your untap phase.)

There are several creatures which deal damage to their controller when
they leave play. A Shimmering Efreet can phase them out thus triggering
this effect at the beginning of the untap phase.

--
WWW:
http://www5.informatik.uni-erlangen.de/HTML/English/Persons/MA/be/be.html

Mike Marcelais

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Sep 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/18/97

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Bob Hanson <b...@mirage.skypoint.com> wrote in article
<5vq7h9$nlc$1...@shadow.skypoint.net>...

> Anita Evans <Rece...@mcare.med.umich.edu> wrote:
> > Anyway, can anyone give me an example of something that can happen that
> > you could use mana for other than 'Skipping a Turn effects'

> > I am trying to understand why this is not an incredibly moot point. Why
> > should you be allowed to draw mana in a phase where absolutely nothing
> > for the most part can happen. An example would be greatly appreciated.
>

> What about paying 2 to stop the effect of receiving another poison
> counter after being damaged by a Sabretooth Cobra.

Nope. That's a normal instant speed ability and cannot be used when Instants
aren't legal (like during untap).

Phaedrus

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Sep 18, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/18/97

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In article <5vq7h9$nlc$1...@shadow.skypoint.net>,

Bob Hanson <b...@mirage.skypoint.com> wrote:
>Anita Evans <Rece...@mcare.med.umich.edu> wrote:
>> Anyway, can anyone give me an example of something that can happen that
>> you could use mana for other than 'Skipping a Turn effects'
>> I am trying to understand why this is not an incredibly moot point. Why
>> should you be allowed to draw mana in a phase where absolutely nothing
>> for the most part can happen. An example would be greatly appreciated.

>What about paying 2 to stop the effect of receiving another poison
>counter after being damaged by a Sabretooth Cobra.

Good try, but no. The "pay 2 to prevent the extra damage from Sabertooth
Cobra" ability is played as an instant (since the card text doesn't specify a
speed). And instants can't be used during the untap phase.
"The `then' in the card text refers to the start of upkeep. You have to
pay the 2 mana before the start of your upkeep or it gives you the extra
poison counter. This means you have to pay on the previous turn because it is
an instant-speed effect to pay the cost. [Aahz 09/24/96]"

Mike Marcelais

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Sep 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/19/97

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> Other than pain lands/cities is there any other way to suffer damage
> during your upkeep? (not including mana burn at the end which is loss of
> life anyway)

One of the more convoluted methods:

Stangg, enchanted with Creature Bond (3/4); Stangg Twin, enchanted with
Unstable Mutation (7 counters) and Tawnos's Weaponry (0/1).

You choose to let the Weaponry untap (since the Twin will die during your
upkeep anyway), causing ST to lose the +1/+1 bonus, which kills the Twin,
which buries Stangg which causes Creature Bond to ping you for 4 points of
damage.

John D. Thomas

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Sep 19, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/19/97

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David DeLaney wrote:

>
> Anita Evans <Rece...@mcare.med.umich.edu> writes:
> > The "for the most part", basically. Plus there's no good reason _not_ to let you do so. It makes the rules for when you can use mana sources _much_ simpler, as anyone who was here from Revised on can tell you...
>
> Dave

Well, I've been having problems convincing people that you can indeed do
this. Especially when I draw mana on my untap prior to my mass
untapping for the purpose of inducing mana burn so that I may get to
Mirror Universe range very easily. (Same with cleanup).

I just printed off Stephen D'Angelo's General Rulings and plan to start
taking them with me to tournaments so that judges and players can read
it if they don't believe me.

Dan Johnson

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Sep 20, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/20/97

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In article <5vuen2$ovp$1...@newbabylon.rs.itd.umich.edu>,

John D. Thomas <jth...@mcare2.med.umich.edu/> wrote:
>Well, I've been having problems convincing people that you can indeed do
>this. Especially when I draw mana on my untap prior to my mass
>untapping for the purpose of inducing mana burn so that I may get to
>Mirror Universe range very easily. (Same with cleanup).
>
>I just printed off Stephen D'Angelo's General Rulings and plan to start
>taking them with me to tournaments so that judges and players can read
>it if they don't believe me.

Wouldn't it be easier to take the Fifth Edition rulebook with you and show
page 43 to anyone who doubts the possibility of playing a mana source
during untap?
--
Daniel W. Johnson
pano...@iquest.net
http://www.members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

David DeLaney

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Sep 21, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/21/97

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In a previous article, Rece...@mcare.med.umich.edu (Anita Evans) says:
>Other than pain lands/cities is there any other way to suffer damage
>during your upkeep? (not including mana burn at the end which is loss of
>life anyway)

Assuming you meant to type "untap" here, there's many ways, most of them
triggered abilities of one type or another. Creature Bond on a creature
that dies during untap; City of Brass or Sorrow's Path or a land with Psychic
Venom on it being tapped [for mana]; Lightning Cloud if someone casts a red
spell somehow during untap; etc.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flowe

It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to se

Ingo Warnke

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Sep 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/22/97

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Dan Johnson (pano...@iquest.net) wrote:
: In article <5vuen2$ovp$1...@newbabylon.rs.itd.umich.edu>,

: John D. Thomas <jth...@mcare2.med.umich.edu/> wrote:
: >Well, I've been having problems convincing people that you can indeed do
: >this. Especially when I draw mana on my untap prior to my mass
: >untapping for the purpose of inducing mana burn so that I may get to
: >Mirror Universe range very easily. (Same with cleanup).
: >
: >I just printed off Stephen D'Angelo's General Rulings and plan to start
: >taking them with me to tournaments so that judges and players can read
: >it if they don't believe me.

: Wouldn't it be easier to take the Fifth Edition rulebook with you and show
: page 43 to anyone who doubts the possibility of playing a mana source
: during untap?

It's not so easy. In a friendly game I watched the Mirror player lost because he was at
4 and only had an Incinerate. After the game was over, I told him he could have taken
mana burn during untap to get down to 3. He didn't believe me, even after I showed him
the rulebook and later emailed some part of a Rules Team rulings to this affect.
Inertia of thought is something hard to break.

Ingo Warnke

John D. Thomas

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Sep 22, 1997, 3:00:00 AM9/22/97

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David DeLaney wrote:
> Assuming you meant to type "untap" here, there's many ways, most of them triggered abilities of one type or another. Creature Bond on a creature that dies during untap; City of Brass or Sorrow's Path or a land with Psychic Venom on it being tapped [for mana]; Lightning Cloud if someone casts a red spell somehow during untap; etc.
> Dave

So in other words there are some lands and some TE's that can cause
damage during untap. But they are fairly obscure.