Humble/Humiltiy Any Other Cards Like Them?
Todd Beauchemin
Like ones that target artifacts - turning off their continuous or activated
effects?
or
Enchantments?
or
All Permanents?
I realize that there might not be because they could have a seriously mangle
the rules much
more the Humble or Humility ever could.
--------------------------------------------
Todd Beauchemin
high-co...@todds-world.net
Hotmail: Marau...@hotmail.com
AIM: Marauder328, CaptainTodd328
http://www.todds-world.net
David DeLaney
>Are there any other cards that produce the same or similar effects?
>Like ones that target artifacts - turning off their continuous or activated
>effects?
Titania's Song.
>Enchantments?
>All Permanents?
Nope.
>I realize that there might not be because they could have a seriously mangle
>the rules much more the Humble or Humility ever could.
Actually, about the same degree as Humility does. Soul Sculptor can also remove
abilities, but only from creatures.
Dave
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Todd Beauchemin
So there's no "ability shut-off" or whatever you want to call it for
Enchantments.
Would Titania's Song in effect turn off the Enchantments "enchant/ability"
if a
Mycosynth Lattice is in play?
Titania's Song
{3}{G}
Enchantment
Each noncreature artifact loses its abilities and becomes an artifact
creature with power and toughness each equal to its converted mana cost. If
Titania's Song leaves play, this effect continues until end of turn.
Mycosynth Lattice
{6}
Artifact
All permanents are artifacts in addition to their other types.
All cards that aren't in play, spells, and permanents are colorless.
Players may spend mana as though it were mana of any color.
The Lattic would turn the Enchantment into an Artifact Enchantment. Which
would then be affected by the Song. Would this also mean that the
Enchantment be removed from what ever other permanent its attached to if it
were an Enchant Creature or an Enchant Land (I'm assuming yes in this case)?
--------------------------------------------
Todd Beauchemin
high-co...@todds-world.net
Hotmail: Marau...@hotmail.com
AIM: Marauder328, CaptainTodd328
http://www.todds-world.net
"David DeLaney" <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc9bii...@gatekeeper.vic.com...
Daniel W. Johnson
> Thanks for the info.
>
> So there's no "ability shut-off" or whatever you want to call it for
> Enchantments.
> Would Titania's Song in effect turn off the Enchantments "enchant/ability"
> if a
> Mycosynth Lattice is in play?
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "enchant/ability", but it turns
off whatever abilities they have, whether or not those abilities relate
to the enchanted permanent.
For example, a Brilliant Halo would lose both its "Enchanted creature
gets +1/+2." ability and its "When Brilliant Halo is put into a
graveyard from play, return Brilliant Halo to its owner's hand."
ability. It has no other abilities.
Brilliant Halo
{1}{W}
Enchant Creature
Enchanted creature gets +1/+2.
When Brilliant Halo is put into a graveyard from play, return Brilliant
Halo to its owner's hand.
> The Lattic would turn the Enchantment into an Artifact Enchantment. Which
> would then be affected by the Song. Would this also mean that the
> Enchantment be removed from what ever other permanent its attached to if it
> were an Enchant Creature or an Enchant Land (I'm assuming yes in this case)?
Any local enchantment, not just Enchant Creature and Enchant Land.
212.4g A local enchantment can't be attached to itself, and a local
enchantment that's also a creature can't be attached to another object.
If this occurs somehow, the local enchantment is put into its owner's
graveyard. (This is a state-based effect. See rule 420.)
--
Daniel W. Johnson
pano...@iquest.net
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039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
David DeLaney
>Thanks for the info.
>
>So there's no "ability shut-off" or whatever you want to call it for
>Enchantments.
Not as such, no. (Tranquility works, but isn't what you're thinking of.)
>Would Titania's Song in effect turn off the Enchantments "enchant/ability"
>if a Mycosynth Lattice is in play?
Yes. The Lattice makes them enchantment artifacts, and Titania's Song
then makes them enchantment artifact creatures that are "blank" with an
appropriate power and toughness.
Notice that, due to an oft-overlooked bit of the rules, this kills local
enchantments outright; 212.1c means that Titania's Song doesn't make them
into "just an artifact creature", they -are- still local enchantments too.
Now a local enchantment that's also a creature can't be attached to anything
(212.4g), just like for Equipment that becomes also a creature. This means
it "falls off" whatever it's attached to... but now it's a local enchantment
that's in play but not attached to anything. _This_ means 420.5d puts it
into owner's graveyard. [Yes, it's also a creature and normally creatures
can stand on their own two, four, or however many feet... but 420.5d doesn't
care what -other- permanent type(s) it may have, it kills it for being an
unattached local enchantment.]
>The Lattic would turn the Enchantment into an Artifact Enchantment. Which
>would then be affected by the Song. Would this also mean that the
>Enchantment be removed from what ever other permanent its attached to if it
>were an Enchant Creature or an Enchant Land (I'm assuming yes in this case)?
Yes... and it would fall into the graveyard immediately afterwards, oops.
Global enchantments don't have that problem, they'll stay in play, under this
combo, as enchantment artifact creatures with no abilities.
Todd Beauchemin
Therefore the song will stop its abilities as well therefore it would no
longer have the ability to turn all perminiates in play and not-in-play into
artifcats. So now it looks like the Lattice turns everything into an
artifact. The song comes into play stopping the Lattice's ability but that
still doesn't stop the song from stopping the abilities of all the other
Artifcats created/converted whent the Lattice was in effect (since I'm
assuming this all would happen simotaniously). Thus Local Enchanment would
be put into the graveyard and global enchantment would briefly be artifact
creatures but since the Lattice is no longer in effect because of the song
they will go back to being enchantments.
Following the same effect this would also destroy all lands as well since
lands have a converted mana cost of 0. Artifact lands would be put into the
graveyard (unless they get enchanted with at least a 0/+1) since they would
have a 0/0. Since the Lattice is in play all lands are Artifact Lands which
means that they will all be converted (briefly) into 0/0 creatures and sent
to the graveyard.
Talk about something to send everyone back to the stoneage.
--------------------------------------------
Todd Beauchemin
high-co...@todds-world.net
Hotmail: Marau...@hotmail.com
AIM: Marauder328, CaptainTodd328
http://www.todds-world.net
"David DeLaney" <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc9dud...@gatekeeper.vic.com...
David DeLaney
>I just found a problem with my thinking. The Lattice itself is an artifact.
>Therefore the song will stop its abilities as well therefore it would no
>longer have the ability to turn all perminiates in play and not-in-play into
>artifcats.
Note that the Song effect -depends on- the Lattice effect; the Lattice
turns things into artifacts, and the Song affects (noncreature) artifacts.
Note that the Lattice effect depends on the Song effect: the Song's effect
can make the Lattice effect not exist any more.
Also, both of these are being applied in the same payer (layer 4, type-
changing); normally the removal-of-abilities would be up in layer 5, but
anything that's type-changing as part of its effect is applied -entirely-
in layer 4.
So what we have here is called a "dependency loop" ... and for those, you
revert to plain timestamp order to break the loop. So if the Lattice was
there before the Song was, everything will be artifact creature permanents;
the ones that start off creatures won't be 'blank' and the ones that start
off noncreatures will be 'blank'. If the Song is there first, it animates
and blanks the Lattice and the Lattice effect then doesn't get to apply...
> So now it looks like the Lattice turns everything into an
>artifact. The song comes into play stopping the Lattice's ability but that
>still doesn't stop the song from stopping the abilities of all the other
>Artifcats created/converted whent the Lattice was in effect (since I'm
>assuming this all would happen simotaniously).
Not -exactly- a good assumption; there's problems if you assume different
effects "apply simultaneously", solved by the procedures for ordering
the application of continuous effects, 418.5* .
> Thus Local Enchanment would
>be put into the graveyard and global enchantment would briefly be artifact
>creatures but since the Lattice is no longer in effect because of the song
>they will go back to being enchantments.
That doesn't actually make sense; _when_ would this "briefly" be? Either they
are artifact creatures once all continuous effects are applied (and are still
enchantments as well), or they're not; they don't get to 'blink on and off'...
>Following the same effect this would also destroy all lands as well since
>lands have a converted mana cost of 0. Artifact lands would be put into the
>graveyard (unless they get enchanted with at least a 0/+1) since they would
>have a 0/0. Since the Lattice is in play all lands are Artifact Lands which
>means that they will all be converted (briefly) into 0/0 creatures and sent
>to the graveyard.
Yes. Here the "briefly" has a referent - "the time between when you start
applying the combined Lattice/Song effect and when you next check state-based
effects"...