Buyback and medallions
Ingo Kemper
On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:20:50 GMT, th...@cleo.murdoch.edu.au (Luke Thin)
wrote:
>The question is does the medallions reduce the buyback cost of a
>spell?
No. Buyback costs are not part of the casting cost.
>eg. 2 saphire medallions in play.
>1. Capsize cost 3UU to cast.
>or
>2. Capsize cost 2UU to cast.
>
>Which one is the proper casting cost for capsize (assuming no other
>influences on the casting of capsize)?
The first one is correct. You have to pay the full buyback cost of 3.
Ingo Kemper
--
__ _ __ __ __ __
__/ /_/ \/ /_/____/_ |___Sky...@uni-muenster.de___---===> \
/_/ /_/\_/ |__/ |__/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---===>__/
Curt23G
Medallions _DO_ reduce the buyback cost! The official ruling I recieved
from WOTC is that the madallions can reduce either the casting cost or the
buyback cost, but not both. Why? I don't know, but that is what JD Wiker
from customer service at WOTC emailed to me. If you want me to email that
message to you just let me know.
David Sachs
Curt23G wrote in message <19971109184...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Remember that buyback is part of the cost of casting the spell, even though
it is not part of the "casting cost" or "total casting cost", which are the
part of the cost in the upper right hand corner of the card.
Similarly, if you have 3 Ruby Medallions in play, you can cast a Fireball
dealing 1 damage each to 2 targets for one Red mana. In this case the cost
of casting the spell is 3R (R + 2 damage + 1 extra target), which is reduced
to R. However the "casting cost" is 2R (the 1 mana for the extra target is
not included), so a spell blast targetting this Fireball would cost 3U, not
4U.
--
*** The Klingon's Favorite food was named by the first earthling to see it
***
David Sachs - Fermilab - MS369 - PO Box 500 - Batavia, IL 60510 (630) 840
3942
Frank Hassas
Yes!
Luke Thin
Hi,
I know this subject has been dealth with already but I missed the
posts on the subject.
The question is does the medallions reduce the buyback cost of a
spell?
eg. 2 saphire medallions in play.
1. Capsize cost 3UU to cast.
or
2. Capsize cost 2UU to cast.
Which one is the proper casting cost for capsize (assuming no other
influences on the casting of capsize)?
regards,
Luke
Mike Marcelais
> The question is does the medallions reduce the buyback cost of a
> spell?
Yes.
>
> eg. 2 saphire medallions in play.
> 1. Capsize cost 3UU to cast.
> or
> 2. Capsize cost 2UU to cast.
2UU.
>
> Which one is the proper casting cost for capsize (assuming no other
> influences on the casting of capsize)?
Neither is the "casting cost". That is still 1UU. Spell Blast, for instance,
would cost 3U to cast against this spell. Medallions (et al) only change the
amount of mana you have to pay; the "casting cost" always remains unchanged.
--
+------------------------+----------------------+
| Mike Marcelais | MS Office Developer |
| mich...@microsoft.com | and Magic Rules Guru |
+------------------------+----------------------+
| Opinions expressed in this post are mine, and |
| do not necessarily reflect those of Microsoft |
+--= Moonstone Dragon =---------------= UDIC =--+
David DeLaney
kem...@uni-muenster.de (Ingo Kemper) says:
>On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:20:50 GMT, th...@cleo.murdoch.edu.au (Luke Thin)
>wrote:
>
>>The question is does the medallions reduce the buyback cost of a
>>spell?
>
>No. Buyback costs are not part of the casting cost.
Medallions help pay for the total cost. Buyback costs are part of the total
cost, so may get partly or fully paid for if the total cost is [and if the
casting cost doesn't contain any more generic mana to be paid].
>>eg. 2 saphire medallions in play.
>>1. Capsize cost 3UU to cast.
>>or
>>2. Capsize cost 2UU to cast.
2 is correct, with buyback. [Cast without buyback, it still only gets paid
for to UU, since Medallions can only pay for generic costs.]
>The first one is correct. You have to pay the full buyback cost of 3.
No, Ingo. Medallions, like the Helm of Awakening, do not state that they
only help you pay the _casting_ cost... so they can help with other costs
as well, affecting the _total_ cost.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flowe
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to se
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Ingo Kemper
On 14 Nov 1997 12:39:15 GMT, if...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (David
DeLaney) wrote:
>No, Ingo. Medallions, like the Helm of Awakening, do not state that they
>only help you pay the _casting_ cost... so they can help with other costs
>as well, affecting the _total_ cost.
I stand corrected. Sorry for the mistake.
George W. Bayles
David DeLaney (if...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu) wrote:
[snip]
: Medallions help pay for the total cost. Buyback costs are part of the total
: cost, so may get partly or fully paid for if the total cost is [and if the
: casting cost doesn't contain any more generic mana to be paid].
Are buyback costs really part of the total cost of playing a card? Why isn't
it the cost of playing a card ability with specialized timing? Try
looking at it this way:
Buyback is a card ability that can be played (and paid for) only when
the card is played.
Looking at the text of the buyback cards it sure looks that way.
[snip]
Sean Reddy
In article <64hgpj$r...@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu>, if...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
(David DeLaney) wrote:
> kem...@uni-muenster.de (Ingo Kemper) says:
> >On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:20:50 GMT, th...@cleo.murdoch.edu.au (Luke Thin)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>The question is does the medallions reduce the buyback cost of a
> >>spell?
> >
> >No. Buyback costs are not part of the casting cost.
>
> Medallions help pay for the total cost. Buyback costs are part of the total
> cost, so may get partly or fully paid for if the total cost is [and if the
> casting cost doesn't contain any more generic mana to be paid].
>
Sorry, Dave, I'm afraid you can't do that...
Buyback is considered an ability of the card, not part of the casting
cost. See page 7 of the Tempest Storybook:
"Suppose Bob uses Spell Blast to counter Searing Touch. In this case,
Sue simply puts the spell into her graveyard, whether or not she paid its
buyback cost, because it never resolves. Bob pays a total of 1B for his
Spell Blast, whether or not Sue is buying Searing Touch back, since the
buyback cost is not part of the spell's casting cost."
Likewise, Medallions do not help you pay buyback cost. You could have four
Ruby Medallions in play, but casting Searing Touch and buying it back
still costs 4R, because buyback cost is not part of the casting coast:
it's a separate cost, like the activation cost of a permanent.
> >>eg. 2 saphire medallions in play.
> >>1. Capsize cost 3UU to cast.
> >>or
> >>2. Capsize cost 2UU to cast.
>
> 2 is correct, with buyback. [Cast without buyback, it still only gets paid
> for to UU, since Medallions can only pay for generic costs.]
>
> >The first one is correct. You have to pay the full buyback cost of 3.
>
> No, Ingo. Medallions, like the Helm of Awakening, do not state that they
> only help you pay the _casting_ cost... so they can help with other costs
> as well, affecting the _total_ cost.
>
> Dave
> --
Ingo is correct. If you have ANY Sapphire Medallions in play, You pay 3UU
to cast Capsize and buy it back, or UU to simply cast it. The medallions
reduce the generic mana requirement in the casting cost of the card.
Sean Reddy
The Redneck
Sean Reddy wrote
>(David DeLaney) wrote:
>> Medallions help pay for the total cost. Buyback costs are part of the
total
>> cost, so may get partly or fully paid for if the total cost is [and if
the
>> casting cost doesn't contain any more generic mana to be paid].
>>
>
>Sorry, Dave, I'm afraid you can't do that...
>
>Buyback is considered an ability of the card, not part of the casting
>cost. See page 7 of the Tempest Storybook:
And therin lies your confusion. The Buyback *cost* is an additional
cost, announced when the spell is cast. Buyback has the *effect*
of returning the card to your hand if paid.
Additional costs can be reduced by Medallions.
See the General Rulings Summary, posted regularly by Stephen
D' Angelo, for more information (look for 'buyback'). In this, it
states specifically that the Medallions *do* reduce Buyback, as
they should.
--
The Redneck
the_r...@geocities.com
Jeffrey G. Montgomery
In article <daffydd-1911...@d17-ts05.amug.org>,
Sean Reddy <daf...@amug.org> wrote:
>In article <64hgpj$r...@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu>, if...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
>(David DeLaney) wrote:
>
>> kem...@uni-muenster.de (Ingo Kemper) says:
>> >On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:20:50 GMT, th...@cleo.murdoch.edu.au (Luke Thin)
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >>The question is does the medallions reduce the buyback cost of a
>> >>spell?
>> >
If the buyback costs are not part of the casting cost, then when would
you pay them so that you don't get mana burn? You can't pay them with
the spell cost, but they have to be paid before the resolution of the
spell as most are instants.
Jeff
Phaedrus
In article <3476f...@isc-newsserver.isc.rit.edu>,
Jeffrey G. Montgomery <jgm...@osfmail.isc.rit.edu> wrote:
>If the buyback costs are not part of the casting cost, then when would
>you pay them so that you don't get mana burn? You can't pay them with
>the spell cost, but they have to be paid before the resolution of the
>spell as most are instants.
There's still some terminology confusion happening here.
The "casting cost" of a spell is what's printed in the upper right
corner of the spell card, neither more nor less. For example, the casting
cost of Drain Life is 1B; the extra "X:" called for by the spell's text is
not part of its casting cost. If a spell has a buyback cost, that's not part
of its casting cost either.
But, at the time you announce the spell, you must pay _all_ the costs
required by that spell. For the vast majority of spells, the only cost the
spell calls for is its casting cost. But some spells have additional costs,
and those costs must be paid at announcement time as well. In the case of
Drain Life, you must pay the 1B casting cost, and the additional "X:" cost.
To announce Wicked Reward, you must pay the 1B casting cost, and sacrifice
a creature (the additional cost called for by its text).
When you announce a buyback spell, you can choose whether to buy it
back or not. If you do choose to buy it back, the buyback cost becomes an
additional cost of the spell. So you must pay the buyback cost at announcement
time, along with the casting cost, and along with any other costs. You can
never pay a buyback cost after announcement time.
--
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Sean Reddy
In article <3476f...@isc-newsserver.isc.rit.edu>,
jgm...@osfmail.isc.rit.edu (Jeffrey G. Montgomery) wrote:
> >> >>The question is does the medallions reduce the buyback cost of a
> >> >>spell?
> >> >
> >> >No. Buyback costs are not part of the casting cost.
>
> If the buyback costs are not part of the casting cost, then when would
> you pay them so that you don't get mana burn? You can't pay them with
> the spell cost, but they have to be paid before the resolution of the
> spell as most are instants.
>
> Jeff
There's absolutely no reason you cannot pay the buyback cost to avois mana
burn. Please note that, like additional costs on Drain Life and Soul Burn,
the buyback cost must be paid when the spell is cast, and cannot be paid
at a later time, i.e. in response to an instant cast as a response to the
spell with buyback.
David Linder
daf...@amug.org (Sean Reddy) wrote:
>In article <64hgpj$r...@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu>, if...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
>(David DeLaney) wrote:
>> kem...@uni-muenster.de (Ingo Kemper) says:
>> 2 is correct, with buyback. [Cast without buyback, it still only gets paid
>> for to UU, since Medallions can only pay for generic costs.]
>>
>> >The first one is correct. You have to pay the full buyback cost of 3.
>>
>> No, Ingo. Medallions, like the Helm of Awakening, do not state that they
>> only help you pay the _casting_ cost... so they can help with other costs
>> as well, affecting the _total_ cost.
>>
>> Dave
>> --
>Ingo is correct. If you have ANY Sapphire Medallions in play, You pay 3UU
>to cast Capsize and buy it back, or UU to simply cast it. The medallions
>reduce the generic mana requirement in the casting cost of the card.
>Sean Reddy
I think you (and Ingo) are incorrect. Please read the Tempest FAQ. It
says:
"The Medallions don't specify that they reduce casting cost, so can
'pay for' additional costs."
So a Buybacked Capsize with two medallions in play would cost 2UU
---
David Linder
Top 4 finisher at Copenhagen GP
Top 64 finisher at Chicago Pro Tour
<<< Visit the Deck Lab for the best decks >>>
<<< http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-44674/thelab >>>
Mind over Matter Man
Do I know you?
Irwin Pui-Yin Choy
"The Redneck" <the_r...@geocities.com> wrote:
>And therin lies your confusion. The Buyback *cost* is an additional
>cost, announced when the spell is cast. Buyback has the *effect*
>of returning the card to your hand if paid.
>
>Additional costs can be reduced by Medallions.
>
>See the General Rulings Summary, posted regularly by Stephen
>D' Angelo, for more information (look for 'buyback'). In this, it
>states specifically that the Medallions *do* reduce Buyback, as
>they should.
But does it mean for you can use a Medallion twice when you cast a
spell with Buyback?
----------------------------------------------------------
Irwin Pui-Yin Choy
e-mail: pyc...@unity.ncsu.edu, pyc...@usa.net
M.S. (Parks, Recreation and Tourism Management) program
North Carolina State University
Ingo Warnke
Irwin Pui-Yin Choy (pyc...@unity.ncsu.edu) wrote:
: >
: >See the General Rulings Summary, posted regularly by Stephen
: >D' Angelo, for more information (look for 'buyback'). In this, it
: >states specifically that the Medallions *do* reduce Buyback, as
: >they should.
: But does it mean for you can use a Medallion twice when you cast a
: spell with Buyback?
No. First you find out what you would have to pay altogether without
any Medallion's, Helms of Awakening etc. A Capsize with buyback would
cost 4UU. Then you apply your one Helm of Awakening, which would make
it cost 3UU. Then you apply your Sapphire Medallion, which makes it
cost 2UU. Since you have no more cost reducers, 2UU is what you
actually have to pay from your mana pool.
Ingo Warnke
Phaedrus
In article <347c29b0...@news.ncsu.edu>,
Irwin Pui-Yin Choy <pyc...@unity.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>"The Redneck" <the_r...@geocities.com> wrote:
>>And therin lies your confusion. The Buyback *cost* is an additional
>>cost, announced when the spell is cast. Buyback has the *effect*
>>of returning the card to your hand if paid.
>>
>>Additional costs can be reduced by Medallions.
>spell with Buyback?
No.
Medallions look at the _entire_ cost of casting a spell--the casting
cost, plus any extra costs like Drain Life's black mana, plus any optional
costs like buyback. They then allow you to pay less than that entire cost.
That means that the Medallion works on any of these costs, so it can work
on a buyback cost, etc. But it also means that you can use each Medallion
only once per spell--you can't use it once on the casting cost, once on each
extra cost, once on the buyback, etc. As far as the Medallions are concerned,
all these costs are part of the same thing.
The Redneck
Irwin Pui-Yin Choy wrote
>"The Redneck" <the_r...@geocities.com> wrote:
>
>>And therin lies your confusion. The Buyback *cost* is an additional
>>cost, announced when the spell is cast. Buyback has the *effect*
>>of returning the card to your hand if paid.
>>
>>Additional costs can be reduced by Medallions.
>>
>>D' Angelo, for more information (look for 'buyback'). In this, it
>>states specifically that the Medallions *do* reduce Buyback, as
>>they should.
>
>spell with Buyback?
Nope. You can only apply the Medallion once per spell, I'm
afraid. I misphrased that; the Medallions reduce the *total*
cost of the spell, including additional costs. So a boughtback
Capsize costs normally 4UU. (CC is 1UU, with a bb of 3).
With one Medallion, it costs 3UU. With 2 Medallions, it costs
2UU. And so on, until you have four Medallions, making the
cost UU.
--
The Redneck
the_r...@geocities.com
Ron Noell
>"The Redneck" <the_r...@geocities.com> wrote:
>
>>And therin lies your confusion. The Buyback *cost* is an additional
>>cost, announced when the spell is cast. Buyback has the *effect*
>>of returning the card to your hand if paid.
>>
>>Additional costs can be reduced by Medallions.
>>
>>See the General Rulings Summary, posted regularly by Stephen
>>D' Angelo, for more information (look for 'buyback'). In this, it
>>states specifically that the Medallions *do* reduce Buyback, as
>>they should.
>
>But does it mean for you can use a Medallion twice when you cast a
>spell with Buyback?
No, you just get 1 colorless off the spell ex.
Capsize: 1UU buyback 3, for a total of 4UU With Sapphire Med in play
in would cost 3UU. Hope is helps.
Ron Noell
rno...@fastrans.net
http://home.fastrans.net/~rnoell
David DeLaney
daf...@amug.org (Sean Reddy) says:
>if...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (David DeLaney) wrote:
>> Medallions help pay for the total cost. Buyback costs are part of the total
>> cost, so may get partly or fully paid for if the total cost is [and if the
>> casting cost doesn't contain any more generic mana to be paid].
>
>Sorry, Dave, I'm afraid you can't do that...
Sure can.
>Buyback is considered an ability of the card, not part of the casting
>cost. See page 7 of the Tempest Storybook:
It is not part of the casting cost, true. Did I _say_ it was? It _is_
part of the _cost_ of casting the card. Medallions reduce the amount you
pay for the cost, so they can help reduce the amount you pay when you are
casting a Buyback spell. [Medallions cannot help with costs imposed
from outside: GLoom, Chill, Power SInk, Nether Void, Force Spike.]
See Helm of Awakening for relevant rulings.
> "Suppose Bob uses Spell Blast to counter Searing Touch. In this case,
>Sue simply puts the spell into her graveyard, whether or not she paid its
>buyback cost, because it never resolves. Bob pays a total of 1B for his
>Spell Blast, whether or not Sue is buying Searing Touch back, since the
>buyback cost is not part of the spell's casting cost."
Yes. It is part of the _cost_, which Medallions help with; it is not part
of the _casting cost_, which Spell Blast checks for.
>Likewise, Medallions do not help you pay buyback cost. You could have four
>Ruby Medallions in play, but casting Searing Touch and buying it back
>still costs 4R, because buyback cost is not part of the casting coast:
>it's a separate cost, like the activation cost of a permanent.
It is a separate cost, which Medallions can perfectly well help pay for.
A boughtback Searing Touch with 4 Ruby Medallions in play costs you R.
>Ingo is correct.
No, he wasn't.
>If you have ANY Sapphire Medallions in play, You pay 3UU
>to cast Capsize and buy it back, or UU to simply cast it.
The latter is correct; the former is not. You pay 3UU, less one per Sapphire
Medallion in play, to a minimum of UU.
>The medallions
>reduce the generic mana requirement in the casting cost of the card.
No; they reduce the generic mana requirement in the _cost_ of the card, not
the _casting cost_.
spectre
In article <65d0br$sg3$3...@cubacola.tninet.se>, David Linder
<malinde...@algonet.se> writes
>daf...@amug.org (Sean Reddy) wrote:
>
>>In article <64hgpj$r...@alexander.INS.CWRU.Edu>, if...@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
>>(David DeLaney) wrote:
>>> kem...@uni-muenster.de (Ingo Kemper) says:
>>> 2 is correct, with buyback. [Cast without buyback, it still only gets paid
>>> for to UU, since Medallions can only pay for generic costs.]
>>>
>>> >The first one is correct. You have to pay the full buyback cost of 3.
>>>
>>> No, Ingo. Medallions, like the Helm of Awakening, do not state that they
>>> only help you pay the _casting_ cost... so they can help with other costs
>>> as well, affecting the _total_ cost.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>> --
>>to cast Capsize and buy it back, or UU to simply cast it. The medallions
>>reduce the generic mana requirement in the casting cost of the card.
>
>
>I think you (and Ingo) are incorrect. Please read the Tempest FAQ. It
>says:
>
>"The Medallions don't specify that they reduce casting cost, so can
>'pay for' additional costs."
>
>So a Buybacked Capsize with two medallions in play would cost 2UU
>
>
Thats psycho!! I've been in a game when my opponent got 4 medallions up!
luckily, they only reduce generic mana but it meant her ivory guardians
casting cost went from 4WW to WW. The buyback spells become brutal if
they are virtually free to play.
...
We play as the tempest FAQ says. Buyback costs are a part of the spell
but not part of the casting cost. Because pearl medallion says all
white spells cost 1 less to play it can effect buyback costs, but only
reduce generic mana costs.
In addition to the origional Q. --> Do medallions effect the buyback
cost, I would like to add, does 'Gloom' effect the buyback cost.
---
| he Spectre
-|-----------
Bowie Bailey
>In addition to the origional Q. --> Do medallions effect the buyback
>cost, I would like to add, does 'Gloom' effect the buyback cost.
No, since buyback is paid as part of the original cost of the spell
and not as an ability, it is not affected separately by Gloom.
Bowie Bailey / bow...@gate.net
Dan Johnson
In article <e6od3aAp...@unnatural.demon.co.uk>,
spectre <spe...@unnatural.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In addition to the origional Q. --> Do medallions effect the buyback
>cost, I would like to add, does 'Gloom' effect the buyback cost.
Gloom makes white spells cost an additional <3> to play, regardless of
whether they have buyback.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
pano...@iquest.net
http://www.members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W