can tapped creature attack ?
freak
I have few "tap target creature" type cards. Can I use them during my
opponent's turn to tap his creatures so he can't attack me? Can he still
attack ih his creatures are tapped this way? Can he use creatures
abillities if I tap them this way?
Thank you very much in advance.
Lee Sharpe
> Hi.
>
> I have few "tap target creature" type cards. Can I use them during my
> opponent's turn to tap his creatures so he can't attack me? Can he still
> attack ih his creatures are tapped this way?
Yes, you can do this as long as it's done before his declare attackers
step. It's usually good to do it during his upkeep, before his draw.
These can only work though if the ability is an activated abilitiy or an
Instant spell.
> Can he use creatures abillities if I tap them this way?
As long as he does this before your ability resolves, yes.
-- Lee Sharpe
Morgan Vening
<sha...@students.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>On Mon, 11 Mar 2002, freak wrote:
>
>> Hi.
>>
>> I have few "tap target creature" type cards. Can I use them during my
>> opponent's turn to tap his creatures so he can't attack me? Can he still
>> attack ih his creatures are tapped this way?
>
>Yes, you can do this as long as it's done before his declare attackers
>step. It's usually good to do it during his upkeep, before his draw.
>These can only work though if the ability is an activated abilitiy or an
>Instant spell.
Just some clarifications for the initial poster (note, this is written
after the second question, so it might make more sense if you read
that first).
Combat is broken up into several steps. The Attack Phase can ONLY be
started when the stack is empty, and both players pass priority in the
first main phase. Didn't always used to be this way (leading to what
were null attack phases which now has a seperate meaning), but it's a
uniform system now. Remember, that there is ALWAYS an Attack Phase
each turn, regardless if you have creatures or want to attack.
Typically this can be skipped right over, but sometimes it can matter.
Before the Attack Phase, whenever you have priority passed to you, you
may declare the tapping of a potential attacker). Once an Attack Phase
begins, it runs through as follows.
Step 1. Beginning of Combat.
After triggered abilities are put on the stack, players may play any
abilities or spells that are not Sorceries (or played as Sorceries) or
that don't explicitly have a timing restriction (like "Can only be
played during Upkeep"). This is the first (and only) opportunity in
the Attack Phase to declare you are tapping a potential attacker.
Step 2. Declare Attackers.
The active player then declares each and every creature he wishes to
attack with. Restrictions are checked (can only attack if an opponent
has Islands, etc), and then pays all costs for attacking creatures
(this includes tapping each creature that is attacking, except those
that exclude it like Serra Angel, as well as any sacrifices or mana
payments that might be required). After this has happened, triggered
abilities are put on the stack(When this attacks etc), and the stack
is open for both players to play spells and abilities as in Step 1. As
the tapping of the attackers does not use the stack, they cannot be
tapped 'in response'. This is also the last point at which granting or
removing Evasive ability (Flying, Shadow, Landwalk) to either Attacker
or Blocker will matter, and the last point that a Defender can be
tapped in such a way as to stop it from Blocking.
Step 3. Declare Blockers.
Works in a similar way to Step 2. Again, triggered abilities are put
on the stack (When this creature blocks or is blocking) and there is
the capacity to play spells and abilities. But tapping creatures now
(unless in concert with other cards/effects) or removing Evasive
abilities has no effect. Creatures that have been blocked are
considered to remain blocked regardless of what happens to the blocker
and creatures that block are considered to have blocked, regardless of
what happens to the attacker (unless explicitly stated otherwise).
However, a creature which changes controller, regenerates from
destruction, or removed from play is considered neither an attacker or
defender and is removed from combat once that resolves. This is also
the last time at which boosting or reducing a First Striking
creature's Power will affect how much damage it will do, or even
granting or removing a creature the First Strike ability will change
when it deals damage. Also the last time a First Striker can be
removed from play to have it not deal damage.
Step 4. Combat Damage.
Attacker declares how damage is dealt by all his First Strikers.
Defender declares how damage is dealt by his First Strikers. All
damage goes on the stack simultaneously (the only instance in Magic
where more than one triggered thing happens simultaneously). With the
damage on the stack, again, it is open to spells and abilities as per
the previous steps. This is the last point at which Toughness boosts
or damage prevention shields (Prevent the next 1 damage dealt to
target creature this turn) will save a creature damaged by First
Strike. And the last point at which a creature's Power can be raised
or lowered to influence damage, as well as the last time that a
creature can be removed from play to have it not deal damage.
Damage from First Strikers resolve, and all creatures with lethal
damage are destroyed.
The above Step is repeated again, for non-First Strikers.
Step 5. End of Combat
All End of Combat effects trigger (At End of Combat, destroy all
creatures blocking this, etc), and the stack is opened again as usual.
Once the stack is empty, and both players pass priority, the Attack
Phase is over.
>> Can he use creatures abillities if I tap them this way?
>
>As long as he does this before your ability resolves, yes.
Again, not meaning to step on toes, just trying to clarify. Always
remember the following credo. "There is no such thing as 'I tap it in
response'" when talking about activated abilities that tap. There is a
big difference between declaring an ability, and resolving an ability.
Let's talk two very simple interactions, using 7th Ed cards. Prodigal
Sorcerer and Twiddle.
My opponent has the Sorcerer, I have a Twiddle in hand. Lets run
through the two options, first with a lead-up.
Typically, no activated ability can ever be used when a player doesn't
have priority. There is no "I called it first, so mine goes first" in
Magic. Everything has a specific order. So there is NEVER a time where
two players want to do something simultaneously, and whoever shouted
first wins.
Each Phase (and each step within a Phase) has the active player
starting with priority. This means that only the active player goes
first. If he does not wish to do something, he passes priority to his
opponent. If his opponent passes priority, and the stack is empty, the
Phase (or Step within the Phase) is over. If the stack is not empty
and both players passed priority, the top effect in the stack
resolves, and priority shifts to the active player again (regardless
of who cast the spell or ability).
While a player has priority, they may put, one at a time (there is no
such thing as simultaneous castings), as many spells or abilities on
the stack as he chooses.
OK, now that's established, lets look at the interactions of the two
effects. I have priority. I declare I am casting Twiddle on my
opponent's Prodigal Sorcerer. I pay the costs (one U), declare the
targets(Prodigal Sorcerer), choose modes (not applicable here, modal
spells explicitly state 'choose one :') and put the Twiddle on the
stack. Now before the Twiddle resolves, I have to pass priority to my
opponent. My opponent, seeing this is coming, then has the option of
declaring his currently UNTAPPED Prodigal Sorcerer's 'ping' ability.
My opponent pays the cost (Taps his Prodigal Sorcerer), and declares
the target (Ping to me). He then passes priority, I pass priority, and
the top effect n the stack resolves. We check the target (me) is still
valid and I take one damage. We both get a chance to do other effects
here, but for berevity's sake, we'll say we just both passed priority
again. Then, the second ability resolves. Twiddle says "Tap or untap a
target land, creature or artifact". Again, we check the target is
still valid (the Sorcerer is a land, creature or artifact, and still
in play), which it is, and then choose whether we want to tap or untap
it. Not wanting to be pinged again, we choose to tap it. This is
perfecty valid, because a there is no restriction given to the
contrary (there are no targetting restrictions saying untapped becomes
tapped, tapped becomes untapped). So I tap his tapped Prodigal
Sorcerer, and nothing else happens.
Net result, I take a point of damage and forced him to use his
Sorcerer then. Lets look at the situation with another perspective.
I have priority. I don't wish to cast my Twiddle. I pass priority. My
opponent declares he is using his Prodigal Sorcerer (done as above).He
passes priority. As we haven't both passed priority, I get the chance
to play spells and abilities. I choose to cast Twiddle (all
requirements as above). We both pass priority, and the top effect
resolves. My Twiddle again taps his tapped Prodigal Sorcerer. We both
pass priority again, and I take a ping for my trouble.
Net result, I take a point of damage and I wasted my spell.
While it seems cumbersome, a lot of the above commentary is typically
ignored. We'll use the first instance as an example. It would
typically run in a game as
Me - "I tap your Proddy." and tap one blue mana source, and put tap
the twiddle on the Prodigal Sorcerer.
Opponent - "In response, I ping you."
Me - "I take one." and take one life off my life total and put the
Twiddle in my graveyard.
The full descriptions were only there to indicate how it works under
the rules, the consequences of those actions, and what is and isn't
permitted under the rules.
All of the above is probably excessively lenghty, but intentionally
so, so as to break it down in the easiest way for people new to the
game. If there are any errors in the way I've described things, can
people correcting please keep that philosophy when writing the
answers. This isn't supposed to be for experienced players who can
comprehend the 'lawyeristic' format of the Official Rules.
Morgan Vening
Daniel W. Johnson
> I have few "tap target creature" type cards. Can I use them during my
> opponent's turn to tap his creatures so he can't attack me?
Probably. Do those cards say you can't?
> Can he still
> attack ih his creatures are tapped this way?
No.
308.1. The active player declares which, if any, creatures he or she
controls will attack. Only creatures can attack, and the following
creatures can't attack: tapped creatures (even those that can attack
without tapping), Walls, and creatures the active player didn't control
continuously since the beginning of the turn. This declaration is
simultaneous, not sequential, and doesn't go on the stack. Any triggered
ability generated during this action waits until a player would receive
priority.
(Note that if you let him declare attackers before you use your card,
your card will not do anything useful.)
> Can he use creatures
> abillities if I tap them this way?
Depends. Do the abilities include tapping in the cost? Also, remember
that he will get priority at least once between when you play your card
and when it resolves, and his creatures' abilities are probably usable
then.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
pano...@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
David DeLaney
>I have few "tap target creature" type cards. Can I use them during my
>opponent's turn to tap his creatures so he can't attack me?
Sure, as long as you do so _before he declares attackers_. Using a 'tap this'
spell or ability on something that's already an attacker doesn't remove it
from combat in any way.
Fortunately, he _must_ give you the opportunity to do so: during his upkeep and
draw steps, during his Main phase, and during beginning-of-combat step in
Combat phase are all times when you can cast a Twiddle and have it resolve,
before attackers are chosen (start of declare-attackers step in Combat phase).
>Can he still attack ih his creatures are tapped this way?
Sure. Not with those creatures, of course; tapped creatures can't be chosen
as attackers. But he can certainly attack, and can choose other creatures
he controls as attackers that are currently untapped.
>Can he use creatures abillities if I tap them this way?
In response to the spell or ability that'll tap them, generally, yes he can.
Spells and activated-or-triggered abilities use the stack (except for mana
abilities); that means they can be responded to -before their effect happens-.
Their effect will happen when they resolve off the stack. (Their costs are
paid and targets are chosen when they're announced, and put -on- the stack.)
If the ability says "Play this only as a sorcery", then it can't be used in
response to anything.
If the ability doesn't have "tap" in its activation cost, it can be used
whether or not the creature is tapped.
Not sure what particular one of these situations you're actually wanting to
-ask- about, you see...
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
>On Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:27:55 -0600, Lee Sharpe
>Combat is broken up into several steps. The Attack Phase can ONLY be
>started when the stack is empty, and both players pass priority in the
>first main phase. Didn't always used to be this way (leading to what
>were null attack phases which now has a seperate meaning),
Er, yes it did, modulo the translation between the old system's terms
and today's. You never could start an attack unless everything currently
in a batch had resolved - if there was anything in Limbo, an attack could not
be begun.
>but it's a
>uniform system now. Remember, that there is ALWAYS an Attack Phase
>each turn, regardless if you have creatures or want to attack.
This, however, didn't used to have the analog be true.
>Step 4. Combat Damage.
>Attacker declares how damage is dealt by all his First Strikers.
>Defender declares how damage is dealt by his First Strikers. All
>damage goes on the stack simultaneously (the only instance in Magic
>where more than one triggered thing happens simultaneously).
Um - combat damage isn't 'triggered' in any way shape or form. Even thinking
of it like that can cause Problems; it doesn't obey the rules that triggered
abilities obey, for example. It simply all goes on the stack as a single
pseudospell.
>The above Step is repeated again, for non-First Strikers.
Note that if there's no First Strike creatures involved, this step only
happens -once-. Only if there's First Strike creatures involved will it
occur twice.
Morgan Vening
wrote:
>Morgan Vening <mtv...@optushome.com.au> wrote:
>>On Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:27:55 -0600, Lee Sharpe
>
>>Combat is broken up into several steps. The Attack Phase can ONLY be
>>started when the stack is empty, and both players pass priority in the
>>first main phase. Didn't always used to be this way (leading to what
>>were null attack phases which now has a seperate meaning),
>
>Er, yes it did, modulo the translation between the old system's terms
>and today's. You never could start an attack unless everything currently
>in a batch had resolved - if there was anything in Limbo, an attack could not
>be begun.
>
It used to be, at least to my recollection and was what was ruled at
two tournaments I was in, that you had to declare you were entering a
new Phase. You would announce "I am declaring my Attack Phase". And
your opponent had to pass priority before you went into the Attack.
Then if it got responded to, you could declare a null attack phase,
finish wih the resolutions, allow for the casting of Sorceries and
other similar speed effects, then go declare the Attack Phase again.
>>but it's a
>>uniform system now. Remember, that there is ALWAYS an Attack Phase
>>each turn, regardless if you have creatures or want to attack.
>
>This, however, didn't used to have the analog be true.
>
>>Step 4. Combat Damage.
>>Attacker declares how damage is dealt by all his First Strikers.
>>Defender declares how damage is dealt by his First Strikers. All
>>damage goes on the stack simultaneously (the only instance in Magic
>>where more than one triggered thing happens simultaneously).
>
>Um - combat damage isn't 'triggered' in any way shape or form. Even thinking
>of it like that can cause Problems; it doesn't obey the rules that triggered
>abilities obey, for example. It simply all goes on the stack as a single
>pseudospell.
I knew that, kind of. But I wasn't sure of how to word it in a way
that would be easily explainable. How would considering it a
'triggered' effect cause problems?
From what I can see, it kind of works in the same way as a triggered
ability, except in that when it resolves, and the stack is empty, play
progresses, rather than requiring a passing of prorities by all
players.
>>The above Step is repeated again, for non-First Strikers.
>
>Note that if there's no First Strike creatures involved, this step only
>happens -once-. Only if there's First Strike creatures involved will it
>occur twice.
This, I did know, but again, it was more in terms with keeping it
simple. Writing it in as an exclusion was a lot more difficult than
writing it in as an inclusion.
Morgan Vening
David DeLaney
>d...@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney) wrote:
>>Morgan Vening <mtv...@optushome.com.au> wrote:
>>>On Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:27:55 -0600, Lee Sharpe
>>>Combat is broken up into several steps. The Attack Phase can ONLY be
>>>started when the stack is empty, and both players pass priority in the
>>>first main phase. Didn't always used to be this way (leading to what
>>>were null attack phases which now has a seperate meaning),
>>
>>Er, yes it did, modulo the translation between the old system's terms
>>and today's. You never could start an attack unless everything currently
>>in a batch had resolved - if there was anything in Limbo, an attack could not
>>be begun.
>>
>It used to be, at least to my recollection and was what was ruled at
>two tournaments I was in, that you had to declare you were entering a
>new Phase. You would announce "I am declaring my Attack Phase".
Yes. And you couldn't do so if there was a batch currently going on.
>And your opponent had to pass priority before you went into the Attack.
But: no. Your opponent could say "Wait, -before- you can do that, I want to
do this". The concept of "priority" wasn't fully developed then... but this
was NOT "responding to declaration of attack" in any way, or 'responding to
change of phase', or anything like that. This was a full-blown "Wait, you
can't do that yet, I have something I want to do first". Which was taken by
some as meaning 'you got backed up out of declaring the attack back into your
Main phase', where it was actually 'you're still -in- your Main phase and
didn't manage to declare your attack'...
>Then if it got responded to, you could declare a null attack phase,
>finish wih the resolutions, allow for the casting of Sorceries and
>other similar speed effects, then go declare the Attack Phase again.
Nope. A "null attack" has always been what it is now: an attack with no
attackers declared. You only ever got ONE attack per Main phase back then;
you might have any number of unsuccessful attempts to -start- one, but that
wasn't a "null attack". That was "I can't attack yet because opponent had
something to do first"...
We may be talking about the same thing, of course, but you're using terms that
applied to something else to do so.
>>Um - combat damage isn't 'triggered' in any way shape or form. Even thinking
>>of it like that can cause Problems; it doesn't obey the rules that triggered
>>abilities obey, for example. It simply all goes on the stack as a single
>>pseudospell.
>
>I knew that, kind of. But I wasn't sure of how to word it in a way
>that would be easily explainable. How would considering it a
>'triggered' effect cause problems?
There's all sorts of stuff that applies to triggered abilities that combat
damage simply doesn't do. Plus which it sounds like it -does- "trigger first,
then go on the stack once someone tries to get priority"... which combat damage
doesn't do. It gets assigned (which NO other damage does; all other damage
appears and is dealt during a resolution) and that assignment goes on the
stack -as though- it were a spell or ability; it never gets "announced" or
"played" and doesn't follow 409.1a-1f, which triggered abilities _do_ do
(though some of the steps they never use, in particular 409.1f).
>From what I can see, it kind of works in the same way as a triggered
>ability, except in that when it resolves, and the stack is empty, play
>progresses, rather than requiring a passing of prorities by all
>players.
Once it's on the stack, it works just like anything else on the stack. But
assigning combat damage is fairly different from playing a spell, playing
an activated ability, or announcing a triggered ability...