Question about Vesuvam Doppelganger....
Steven Leigh
Hello,
A couple of times when I am playing I have had the opportunity
to play my Vesuvan Doppelganger before anyone has any creatures on the
table, I have never done so because I assume she would come into play
as a 0/0 creature, is this correct?
Steve
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"I did but my comment was still valid, all it means is, oh shit I just
realized that I am an idiot." -Steven Leigh
Email address: sle...@chat.carleton.ca
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Michael D. Phoenix
Steven Leigh <sle...@chat.carleton.ca> wrote:
>
>Hello,
>
> A couple of times when I am playing I have had the opportunity
>to play my Vesuvan Doppelganger before anyone has any creatures on the
>table, I have never done so because I assume she would come into play
>as a 0/0 creature, is this correct?
No. According to the rulings files, the Vesuvan's ability is a targeted
ability; if the target becomes invalid before the spell resolves, the spell
fizzles; if the target becomes invalid before an attempt to change to it
resolves, the change fizzles (the Doppelganger retains the form it had
before it attempted to change).
If there are no creatures in play, then there is no valid target for the
Doppelganger's ability.
Thus, casting a Vesuvan with no other creatures in play will simply result in
the Summon spell fizzling.
Mickey.
Rob McClain
> A couple of times when I am playing I have had the opportunity
>to play my Vesuvan Doppelganger before anyone has any creatures on the
>table, I have never done so because I assume she would come into play
>as a 0/0 creature, is this correct?
It's not legal. Casting Vesuvan targets a creature, and can't be cast
if there is no legal target.
Rob McClain |"UseNet is a pit."
mccl...@student.msu.edu |
http://web.cps.msu.edu/~mcclain1/ | --quasi-anon
Lisa Richardson
>Well, here is another doppleganger question....
>If I make my doppleganger a fungusaur. And Tim it each turn thus giving
>it a +1/+1 counter at the end of each turn.. and then after say 5
>turns (fungusaur has 5 +1/+1 counters on it), during upkeep I change the
>vesuvan to a shivan dragon, wouldn't it be a 10/10 shivan because
>counters are permanents?
Nope... You might want to read the card a bit more carefully. It ignores
counters from the previous incarnation. So you don't get the nummies of a
Fungusaur transfering into your new Blue, Shivan Dragon. The Vesuvan acts
like a creature with no counters on it, if I remember correctly. Which is
why Clones and Dopplegangers do not get the special stuff from enchantments
or other things, since it targets the new card and takes on the
characteristics of that card. For better or worse, your Doppleganger is
now a blue <whatever> with nothing more than its bare bones and not even
the shirt it came in with.
--
Lisa Richardson (aka Priss on about a half dozen MUCKs)
pr...@glia.biostr.washington.edu and/or pr...@anime.tcp.com
"Live fast, Die young, and make hearts melt as you go away" - Lisa Richardson
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jborders
If I make my doppleganger a fungusaur. And Tim it each turn thus giving
it a +1/+1 counter at the end of each turn.. and then after say 5
turns (fungusaur has 5 +1/+1 counters on it), during upkeep I change the
vesuvan to a shivan dragon, wouldn't it be a 10/10 shivan because
counters are permanents?
John
jbor...@ucsd.edu
Mike Marcelais
| In article <DAw56...@cunews.carleton.ca>,
| Thus, casting a Vesuvan with no other creatures in play will simply result in
| the Summon spell fizzling.
Small point -- it won't fizzle, it is illegal to even announce the spell.
--
+------------------------+----------------------------+
| Mike Marcelais | m...@alphatronix.com |
| Moonstone Dragon | Magic: The Gathering Judge |
| -==(UDIC)==- | Author of ChrHack 2.3 |
+-----------------------------------------------------+
Kyle Nishioka
: Well, here is another doppleganger question....
No, anything that was gained from the form it was copying is lost when it
shifts. The only counters that remain are things that are added from an
outside source. Ex: Unstable Mutation -1/-1 counters or spore counters
from a Fungal Bloom (if the Dop was a Thallid).
--
Kyle
nk...@uhunix3.uhcc.hawaii.edu
#include <std_disclaimer.h>
Mark Phaedrus
> In <3stkjg$6...@news2.ucsd.edu> jborders <jbor...@ucsd.edu> writes:
>
> >Well, here is another doppleganger question....
>
> >If I make my doppleganger a fungusaur. And Tim it each turn thus giving
> >it a +1/+1 counter at the end of each turn.. and then after say 5
> >turns (fungusaur has 5 +1/+1 counters on it), during upkeep I change the
> >vesuvan to a shivan dragon, wouldn't it be a 10/10 shivan because
> >counters are permanents?
>
> Nope... You might want to read the card a bit more carefully. It ignores
> counters from the previous incarnation.
Actually, the Vesuvan Doppelganger card doesn't say a blessed thing
about counters; the rulings on that card do, though... and those rulings
have been changed relatively recently.
> So you don't get the nummies of Fungusaur transfering into your new Blue,
> Shivan Dragon. The Vesuvan acts like a creature with no counters on it, if I
> remember correctly.
In this particular case, you're right, but the general rule you're
using is wrong. Here's the relevant rulings on the Doppelganger:
Whenever it changes forms, it ``resets'' and loses any counters or
other gains it made as the creature it was originally copying. [WotC Rules
Team 04/12/95] This affects creatures like Clockwork Beast, Fungusaur,
Sengir Vampire and Thallids.
When changing forms, it keeps counters due to enchantments, effects
of other spells or permanents, and targeted effects due to its own
abilities that are not represented by counters. [WotC Rules Team 04/12/95]
This includes things like a Giant Growth, pumping up using Fire Breathing,
or even use of Dwarven Warriors targeted ability. It does not include
non-targeted abilities like the Frozen Shade's ``:+1/+1'' ability or
counters as mentioned above. Also, if switching from a Thallid, Spore
counters gained as the Thallid are lost, but ones from Fungal Bloom will
stay in case they are useful later. [WotC Rules Team 04/12/95]
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Sean Robert Johnson
Doppleganger, could I counter it by Elemental Blasting the creature being
duplicated?
Srj
David DeLaney
Well, assuming the creature is destroyed by the Blast, yes; if the Dopp's
target is no longer valid, or missing, when the Summon Dopp spell resolves,
that spell fizzles and the card goes to the graveyard. [If the Dopp is shifting,
that's also a targetted effect; having the shift fizzle for invalid target
causes the Dopp to remain what it was before it tried to shift.]
Dave
--
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Mike Marcelais
| Along these lines, I have a question. If my opponent casts a
| Doppleganger, could I counter it by Elemental Blasting the creature being
| duplicated?
Yes, because the casting or shifting of a Doppleganger, Clone, or Copy
Artifact are all targetted effects. If there target goes away (or becomes
illegal), then the spell or effect fizzles. [A dop's shifting effect that
fizzles simply results in a doppleganger that did not shift -- although it
used up the one shift it is allowed this turn.]
Mike Marcelais
| Well, here is another doppleganger question....
| If I make my doppleganger a fungusaur. And Tim it each turn thus giving
| it a +1/+1 counter at the end of each turn.. and then after say 5
| turns (fungusaur has 5 +1/+1 counters on it), during upkeep I change the
| vesuvan to a shivan dragon, wouldn't it be a 10/10 shivan because
| counters are permanents?
Counters that a Doppleganger accumulates that are due to _non-targetted_)
effects of the form the doppleganger was in are lost when the dopplegagner
shifts. Hence, because the +1/+1 counters from a Fungasour are the result
of Fungie's ability, they are lost when the doppleganger shifts. Targetted
effects (like the Dwarven Weaponsmith's counter -- even if used on himself)
will survive a shifting.