Gravepact + Attrition Question
Paul Grgic
A bit of a rules dispute came up a multi-player game recently. One
player had Gravepact (1BBB,Enchantment; Whenever a creature you control
is put into a graveyard from play, each other player sacrifices a
creature) and Attrition (1BB,Enchantment; B, Sacrifice a creature:
Destroy target nonblack creature) in play. Another player had three
creatures in play, two of which had the ability "cannot be targeted by
spells or effects".
The first player then used Attrition on the second player's only
targetable creature, hoping to force him to sacrifice one of his
untargetables. At this point, I tried to explain that because the
creature sacrifice was a cost and not an effect of Attrition, that the
Gravepact effect would in fact resolve first, allowing the second
player to sacrifice the creature that would have been destroyed by
Attrition anyway. The first player was sure I was wrong, but let the
matter pass anyway rather than hold the game up.
The question is, was my interpretation right, or wrong?
Thanks a lot in advance
--
Paul
--
Paul
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Neal Harwood
wrote:
Still learning, but:
I believe you are right. The sequence (as long as nothing else
intervenes) goes:
1a) Attrition activated: B mana used and 1st player creature goes to
graveyard as cost.
1b) Attrition effect ''destroy targeted nonblack creature' goes on the
stack.
2) Triggered by the sac, the Grave Pact effect goes on the stack.
3) Grave pact resolves: player 2 chooses to sac her targettable
creature (to satisfy the Grave pact effect). Others also choose sac's.
All go straight to graveyard.
4) attrition tries to resolve, but has no valid target, so is
countered.
The crucial bit is that no player receives priority between 1a and 1b
(payment cost and addition of ability activation to stack). Thus 2
waits until 1b completes (i.e. goes on the stack). I believe the
relevant ruling is:
404.2. Triggered abilities aren't played. Instead, they automatically
"trigger" each time their trigger event occurs.
Once an ability has triggered, it goes on the stack the next time a
player receives priority.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Okay everyone. Tell me why I am wrong
Neal 'foolishly optimistic' Harwood
So far, the best anagram of my name I can find is 'Whale on Road', which is appropriate, since I am a fat bloke who does research into motorway traffic.
Tavis Elliott
> Still learning, but:
>
> I believe you are right. The sequence (as long as nothing else
> intervenes) goes:
> 1a) Attrition activated: B mana used and 1st player creature goes to
> graveyard as cost.
> 1b) Attrition effect ''destroy targeted nonblack creature' goes on the
> stack.
Actually I believe the sequence is _slightly_ different. I don't think it
matters much for this ... as soon as you announce a spell/ability (when you
have priority of course), that spell/ability is immediately placed on the
stack (Rule 409.1a). Following the rest of 409.1, the player announces
targets, then pays costs. Since one of the costs for the effect is to
sacrifice a creature, this happens. At _this_point, the grave pact trigger
fires, and as soon as he receives priority again (almost immediately), the
grave pact effect is placed on the stack. Thus, the net result is the
same; the stack at this point (from the top):
1. Grave Pact Triggered effect.
2. Attrition 'destroy' effect.
The rest of the explanation fits I think.
> 2) Triggered by the sac, the Grave Pact effect goes on the stack.
> 3) Grave pact resolves: player 2 chooses to sac her targettable
> creature (to satisfy the Grave pact effect). Others also choose sac's.
> All go straight to graveyard.
> 4) attrition tries to resolve, but has no valid target, so is
> countered.
>
> The crucial bit is that no player receives priority between 1a and 1b
> (payment cost and addition of ability activation to stack). Thus 2
> waits until 1b completes (i.e. goes on the stack). I believe the
> relevant ruling is:
>
> 404.2. Triggered abilities aren't played. Instead, they automatically
> "trigger" each time their trigger event occurs.
> Once an ability has triggered, it goes on the stack the next time a
> player receives priority.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Okay everyone. Tell me why I am wrong
>
> Neal 'foolishly optimistic' Harwood
> So far, the best anagram of my name I can find is 'Whale on Road', which is appropriate, since I am a fat bloke who does research into motorway traffic.
Tavis Elliott
Steve Lord
> Hello one and all,
>
> A bit of a rules dispute came up a multi-player game recently. One
> player had Gravepact (1BBB,Enchantment; Whenever a creature you control
> is put into a graveyard from play, each other player sacrifices a
> creature) and Attrition (1BB,Enchantment; B, Sacrifice a creature:
> Destroy target nonblack creature) in play. Another player had three
> creatures in play, two of which had the ability "cannot be targeted by
> spells or effects".
>
> The first player then used Attrition on the second player's only
> targetable creature, hoping to force him to sacrifice one of his
> untargetables. At this point, I tried to explain that because the
> creature sacrifice was a cost and not an effect of Attrition, that the
> Gravepact effect would in fact resolve first, allowing the second
> player to sacrifice the creature that would have been destroyed by
> Attrition anyway. The first player was sure I was wrong, but let the
> matter pass anyway rather than hold the game up.
Correct. He activates the Attrition, putting the ability on the stack and
then paying the cost (sacrificing a creature) which triggers the Pact.
Then the Pact trigger goes on the stack on top of the Attrition
ability. When it resolves, the targetted creature can be sacrificed (it's
still in play at the time) and the Attrition ability, when it tries to
resolve, will find that its target is gone and will be countered.
> The question is, was my interpretation right, or wrong?
Right.
Steve L
Laurie Cheers
> I believe you are right. The sequence (as long as nothing else
> intervenes) goes:
> 1a) Attrition activated: B mana used and 1st player creature goes to
> graveyard as cost.
> 1b) Attrition effect ''destroy targeted nonblack creature' goes on the
> stack.
Actually, the first thing you do in the playing of Attrition is to put
its ability onto the stack. Only after that do you pay the costs.
(It doesn't really matter in this case. In fact, the only case that I
can think of in which it does matter is Urza's Incubator + Conspiracy.)
So technically, you need to put your 1a and 1b in the opposite order.
I'm afraid this means your "crucial bit"...
> The crucial bit is that no player receives priority between 1a and 1b
> (payment cost and addition of ability activation to stack). Thus 2
> waits until 1b completes (i.e. goes on the stack).
...is actually rather irrelevant.
But apart from that, you're absolutely right. Good job.
--
Laurie Cheers (lrc...@york.ac.uk)
Only fools can't see
the emperor's new .sig: