Can a Mishra's Factory be used as a mana sink?
Andrew Michael Crager
More specifically, can the Mishra's Factory's ability to turn into an
Assembly Worker be used multiple times during a turn? This question came
up because i use M.F. in a power surge deck with mana flares and i often
have extra mana that i want to sink into the M.F.
I've asked some other players and they said that once a M.F. is an
assembly worker, it can no longer use its abilities on the card.
This sounded strange to me at the time so i'd like a ruling on it.
thanks,
--
Andrew Crager
Georgia Institute of Technology
Email: gt9...@prism.gatech.edu
Brian Mudge
In article <4nrlb1$j...@acmex.gatech.edu>,
Andrew Michael Crager <gt9...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
>
>More specifically, can the Mishra's Factory's ability to turn into an
>Assembly Worker be used multiple times during a turn? This question came
>up because i use M.F. in a power surge deck with mana flares and i often
>have extra mana that i want to sink into the M.F.
>
>I've asked some other players and they said that once a M.F. is an
>assembly worker, it can no longer use its abilities on the card.
>
>This sounded strange to me at the time so i'd like a ruling on it.
Well, there's no general rule that something looses its abilities just
because it changes form. (there a few cards that cause this
*specifically* to happen, like titanias song)
As far as I know, the creature retains its tappable and spendable
powers, even though it's now an artifact/creature/land.
So yes, you could sink more mana into it. The effect generated (turn
the land into a creature) goes off, but dosen't do anything if the land
is already a creature.
Bri...
Chris Mattern
Brian Mudge (mu...@rintintin.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
: In article <4nrlb1$j...@acmex.gatech.edu>,
Normally you would be correct, but when a Mishra's transforms, it stops
being a Mishra's Factory and becomes an Assembly Worker. The transform
ability specficially says it changes "Mishra's Factory". So the
ability is still there but you can't use it anymore because it's not
a Mishra's Factory anymore. You could still tap it to pump up some
Worker, including itself (assuming it's not summoning sick). You
can also still tap it for mana if it's not sick. But you can't use the
transformation ability again after it's transformed.
Chris Mattern
Paul Barclay
This is correct (at the moment).
It sure is nice to know that even non-targetted effects check that
they can resolve, and then if they can't resolve, they don't let
themselves be used. Extending this ruling: You can't use a Gaea's
Liege on a Forest, as it's already a Forest. You can't use 2
Thelonite Druids in different spell stacks in the same turn, as the
forests will _already_ be 2/3 creatures.
Paul Barclay.
MUDGE BRIAN WAYNE
In article <4ogpkl$2...@news2.cais.com>,
Oops. Guess I should RTFC.
In any event, you can still use the Mishra's as a mana sink, but only
once per turn. You can activate the factory's power to turn itself into
an assembly worker, and in response activate the power again.
Of course, only the very last activation will actually do anything, the
rest will fail.
Bri...
Chris Mattern
: This is correct (at the moment).
: It sure is nice to know that even non-targetted effects check that
: they can resolve, and then if they can't resolve, they don't let
: themselves be used. Extending this ruling: You can't use a Gaea's
It's not a question of "can't resolve." If the Factory didn't
change its name when it transformed, it would be perfectly
legal to transform a transformed Factory. But the name change
means the transform effect can't "find" the card anymore.
: Liege on a Forest, as it's already a Forest. You can't use 2
Huh? Gaea's Liege says "target land". A Forest is a land, so it
is a legal target for the Liege.
: Thelonite Druids in different spell stacks in the same turn, as the
: forests will _already_ be 2/3 creatures.
Huh again? Thelonite Druids do not make the Forests not be Forests--they
remain Forests. In any case, there don't even need to be any Forests
in play to use a Druid. I don't see what either of these examples have
to do with a Mishra's Factory.
Chris Mattern
Mike Bristow
In article <4nrlb1$j...@acmex.gatech.edu>,
gt9...@prism.gatech.edu (Andrew Michael Crager) writes:
>
>More specifically, can the Mishra's Factory's ability to turn into an
>Assembly Worker be used multiple times during a turn? This question came
>up because i use M.F. in a power surge deck with mana flares and i often
>have extra mana that i want to sink into the M.F.
>
>I've asked some other players and they said that once a M.F. is an
>assembly worker, it can no longer use its abilities on the card.
>
It all needs to be in the same stack, like this:
A: I'll turn my MF into an AW. <taps land>
A: In response to that, I'll turn my MF into an AW <taps land>
A: In response to that, I'll turn my MF into an AW <taps land>
A: In response to that, I'll turn my MF into an AW <taps land>
etc.
So the stack looks like this:
A declares transform - legal
A declares transform. As 1st transform hasn't resolved, it's
legal.
A declares transform. As 1st or 2nd transforms haven't
resolved yet, it's legal.
3rd transform resolves MF is an AW
2nd transform tries to resolve, finds target no longer acceptable,
and fizzles
1st transform tries to resolve, finfs target no longer acceptable, and
fizzles.
But who cares? Your MF is an AW, and your land is tapped.
Mike
Paul Bennett
is this going to be the definitive answer and 'set in stone'?
i'm sure you know that most people believe that the factory
is the ultimate mana sink.
--
Paul Bennett (817)763-4217
ben...@mps.lfwc.lockheed.com
http://www.flash.net/~aronna
Brian Mudge
In article <BENNETT.96...@smoky.mps.lfwc.lockheed.com>,
Paul Bennett <ben...@smoky.mps.lfwc.lockheed.com> wrote:
>is this going to be the definitive answer and 'set in stone'?
>i'm sure you know that most people believe that the factory
>is the ultimate mana sink.
>--
Using the Factory as a sink is a one-shot per turn deal.
After it gets animated, it's literally not a Mishra's Factory anymore,
and so can't use it's power. (it's an Assembly Worker, not a Factory)
Bri...
Sam Lindsay-Levine
No, it sez in Duelist you can still activate it again and
again...so it can be used as the ultimate mana sink.
And it is still a Mishra's factory, but it is also an Assembly
Worker, so it can still use its powers.
In article <4ol9ks$6...@peabody.colorado.edu> Brian Mudge wrote:
>Date: 30 May 1996 23:06:04 GMT
>From: mu...@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (Brian Mudge)
>Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules
>Subject: Re: Can a Mishra's Factory be used as a mana sink?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sam Lindsay-Levine
pug...@gnn.com
http://members.gnn.com/puggle/snail.htm/samweb/sammain.htm
You have at your command the wisdom of the ages.
-Found in my fortune cookie
Brian Mudge
In article <4olbcn$q...@news-e2b.gnn.com>,
Sam Lindsay-Levine <Pug...@gnn.com> wrote:
>No, it sez in Duelist you can still activate it again and
>again...so it can be used as the ultimate mana sink.
>
>And it is still a Mishra's factory, but it is also an Assembly
>Worker, so it can still use its powers.
>
rulings: (as posted recently)
"Because turning it into a creature is an effect, it is possible to power
it many times during an instant. When the instant is resolved, the
factory will turn into an assembly worker. Once that once (sic) it is an
Assembly Worker that (sic) this will not work. "
Translating the last sentence, I think it should read: "Once it is an
Assembly Worker, then this will not work."
Fortunately, it does cite its reference as Duelist #2, page 14, for
anyone who cares to clarify this matter further.
Bri...
Greycat Sharpclaw
Meow all...
There is an allegation that mu...@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (Brian
Mudge) wrote:
Anywat, Tom Wylie just answered this question in another thread.
Once converted to a worker, it is *not* a MF ..
Of course, it *is* still a land.. I think that's what confuses
people.
Greycat
Ingo Warnke
Chris Mattern (matt...@cais.cais.com) wrote:
: Normally you would be correct, but when a Mishra's transforms, it stops
: being a Mishra's Factory and becomes an Assembly Worker. The transform
: ability specficially says it changes "Mishra's Factory". So the
: ability is still there but you can't use it anymore because it's not
I agree with that, but I want to point to a possible 'counterargument'.
It is a general rule that when the text of a card refers to its own name
it is assumed to mean itself regardless wether the name of that permanent later
changes. Once an Ice Floe is tapped to use its special ability it will prevent
the creature it was used on from untapping even if the Ice Floe becomes some-
thing else (per Bood Moon, Orcish Farmer,...). I just want a confirmation from
Tom that the Mishra's text is not bound to that rule.
Ingo Warnke
Paul Barclay
I'm not sure about that Ice Floe argument, as there is no longer a
tapped Ice Floe in play (there isn't a ruling I could find on it,
though).
My counterargument's much simpler.
Q: "Is it in play?"
A: "Yes"
Q: "Does it have an ability that I can pay the activation cost of?"
A: "Yes"
Q: "Is this ability legal at this time?"
A: "Yes"
Q: "Does that ability have any targetting restrictions?"
A: "No"
Q: "Then can I use that ability?"
A: "Yes"
This seems to apply to every other fast effect.
Paul Barclay.
Brian Mudge
In article <31b58...@info4.uni-rostock.de>,
Ingo Warnke <nfa...@hp1.uni-rostock.de> wrote:
>Chris Mattern (matt...@cais.cais.com) wrote:
>
>: Normally you would be correct, but when a Mishra's transforms, it stops
>: being a Mishra's Factory and becomes an Assembly Worker. The transform
>: ability specficially says it changes "Mishra's Factory". So the
>: ability is still there but you can't use it anymore because it's not
>
>I agree with that, but I want to point to a possible 'counterargument'.
>It is a general rule that when the text of a card refers to its own name
>it is assumed to mean itself regardless wether the name of that permanent later
>changes. Once an Ice Floe is tapped to use its special ability it will prevent
>the creature it was used on from untapping even if the Ice Floe becomes some-
>thing else (per Bood Moon, Orcish Farmer,...). I just want a confirmation from
>Tom that the Mishra's text is not bound to that rule.
Well, suit yourself.
If Tom is busy, you can check the card rulings yourself.
The "Tap and Hold" rulings don't really apply in this case. In any
event, I was unaware that an Ice Floe could hold a creature when the ICE
FLOE changed to something else. I am aware of the example of the Ice Floe
versus an Assembly Worker that later Reverts to a Factory.
I think the confusion stems from the card text.
In any event, let me know how your quest turns out. If I'm laboring
under a misconception, let me know.
Bri...
Brian Mudge
In article <4p69sn$l...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>,
Paul Barclay <pb...@hermes.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
(assuming the Factory has already been turned into an Assembly Worker.)
>My counterargument's much simpler.
>
>Q: "Is it in play?"
>A: "Yes"
The worker is in play, there's no factory here.
>Q: "Does it have an ability that I can pay the activation cost of?"
>A: "Yes"
Uh huh, the card states that it can be tapped for mana or to give
a target assembly worker +1/+1. There's also some text about how a
mishra's factory can become an assembly worker, but it dosen't make
much sense, since there aren't any Mishra's Factories around.
Even if there were, this power is written as though it applied to this
card only, and so couldn't affect another factory.
>Q:"Is this ability legal at this time?"
>A: "Yes"
Two of them are, the other one is a mystery.
>Q: "Does that ability have any targetting restrictions?"
>A: "No"
The mystery one? No, it has no targeting restrictions. There just
aren't any Factories around to use it on. If it said "assembly worker"
instead of "Mishra's Factory", then the mystery would be solved.
This card isn't a Mishra's Factory. When and if it becomes one, we can
use this special power.
>Q: "Then can I use that ability?"
>A: "Yes"
If it's a Factory. It isn't. We can't activate the power.
>This seems to apply to every other fast effect.
If the Order of Leitbur had text to the effect of: "BB: Pentium gains
+1/+0 until end of turn.", your contention is that this power would be
usable even though there is no Pentium? (Agreed, if the text said "all
pentiums", then we would have a cut and dried case that the power could
be activated, but the text in our example clearly indicates that it refers
to THIS VERY CARD.)
Now, do you understand the arguement?
Bri...
Kyle Nishioka
Just remembered something, if the Factory is no longer a Factory once it
animates into an Assembly Worker, the following scenario shouldn't be legal.
1. Attack w/ 2/2.
2. Animate MF and block.
3. Tap MF to pump itself.
End result is a tapped 3/3 Worker blocking a 2/2. If the Assembly worker
overwrites the MF completely, you shouldn't be able to this.
--
Kyle
nk...@hawaii.edu
#include <std_disclaimer.h>
#include <blue_ribbon>
RICHARD KENAN
Brian Mudge (mu...@rintintin.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
: In article <4p69sn$l...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>,
: Paul Barclay <pb...@hermes.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
: (assuming the Factory has already been turned into an Assembly Worker.)
: >My counterargument's much simpler.
: >
: >Q: "Is it in play?"
: >A: "Yes"
: The worker is in play, there's no factory here.
The card with the card text granting it that particular ability is
in play. That's all that matters.
: >Q: "Does it have an ability that I can pay the activation cost of?"
: >A: "Yes"
: Uh huh, the card states that it can be tapped for mana or to give
: a target assembly worker +1/+1. There's also some text about how a
: mishra's factory can become an assembly worker, but it dosen't make
: much sense, since there aren't any Mishra's Factories around.
: Even if there were, this power is written as though it applied to this
: card only, and so couldn't affect another factory.
It has an ability, which doesn't tap it and costs 1 colorless mana, that
does something. At this point, it doesn't matter what it does.
: >Q:"Is this ability legal at this time?"
: >A: "Yes"
: Two of them are, the other one is a mystery.
On pure timing, this is an instant. It is a legal ability at any time
when instants may be used.
: >Q: "Does that ability have any targetting restrictions?"
: >A: "No"
: The mystery one? No, it has no targeting restrictions. There just
: aren't any Factories around to use it on. If it said "assembly worker"
: instead of "Mishra's Factory", then the mystery would be solved.
: This card isn't a Mishra's Factory. When and if it becomes one, we can
: use this special power.
Why does it have to be a Mishra's Factory? What conceivable justification
is there for believing that it must be? Cards that affect things without
targetting them are well understood. Mishra's Factory has the ability to
change itself into an Assembly Worker as long as it is named Mishra's
Factory. This is not targetted. Therefore, even if there is no card
named Mishra's Factory that is also the card generating the effect in play,
the ability can be used. Just like Wrath of God.
: >Q: "Then can I use that ability?"
: >A: "Yes"
: If it's a Factory. It isn't. We can't activate the power.
Look. This isn't targetted. You can use a fast effect if -
Fast effects of that speed are legal at this time (check).
There is a valid target (untargetted, so check)
You can pay the cost (check)
It is untapped or is not a non-creature non-land artifact (check)
You have controlled it since the beginning of your most recent turn,
or it is not currently a creature, or the ability does not require
tapping (check)
The ability may be legally used during this phase or this portion of
a phase (no restrictions written, so check)
These are the total number of restrictions on when a fast effect of
a permanent can be used. If you can find even a single ruling that
supports another restriction that could, rationally, countermand this
argument, quote it. Please! Until then, the card works as past
rulings will lead us to believe, not as it perhaps should be thought
to work.
: >This seems to apply to every other fast effect.
: If the Order of Leitbur had text to the effect of: "BB: Pentium gains
: +1/+0 until end of turn.", your contention is that this power would be
: usable even though there is no Pentium? (Agreed, if the text said "all
: pentiums", then we would have a cut and dried case that the power could
: be activated, but the text in our example clearly indicates that it refers
: to THIS VERY CARD.)
No card has been or likely ever will be written in that manner. We have
no other instance where a card changes names without explicitly changing
card text. In fact, the only card name changes other than Mishra's
Factory -> Assembly Worker are card name changes to *BASIC* lands, which
are in the rulebook denied all abilities other than tapping for a specific
color of mana.
: Now, do you understand the arguement?
Yes, I do. However...
Assembly worker still has the text premitting it to change Mishra's
Factory into an Assembly Worker.
This ability is not targetted. It is a 4E card and doesn't say it is
targetted, so it is not targetted. Period. 4E was published under
modern targetting rules.
Non targetted effects can be used EVEN WHEN IT IS TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE
FOR THEM TO ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING.
Consider that cards that name themselves can be considered to replace
every incident of their name with "this card" Thus, Rainbow Vale will
change controllers if tapped, even if it no longer a Rainbow Vale when
it should change controllers.
The only argument I can see against this is either a specific ruling
by the WotC rules team, which would, by current ruling precedent, be
entirely out of the blue, or deciding that the ability is targetted.
Just me.
--
Richard Kenan
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!eefacdk
Internet: eef...@prism.gatech.edu
Brian Mudge
In article <4p88pn$d...@catapult.gatech.edu>,
RICHARD KENAN <eef...@acmey.gatech.edu> wrote:
>: The mystery one? No, it has no targeting restrictions. There just
>: aren't any Factories around to use it on. If it said "assembly worker"
>: instead of "Mishra's Factory", then the mystery would be solved.
>: This card isn't a Mishra's Factory. When and if it becomes one, we can
>: use this special power.
Ok, this part of my arguement was poorly worded.
The text on the factory (when read in one perfectly valid way) indicates
that, while it's a FACTORY, Mishra's Factory can become a worker. The
implication being that, if it's not a factory, then it can't even use this
power.
>Look. This isn't targetted. You can use a fast effect if -
>Fast effects of that speed are legal at this time (check).
>There is a valid target (untargetted, so check)
>You can pay the cost (check)
The card is a Factory, NO CHECK.
>It is untapped or is not a non-creature non-land artifact (check)
>You have controlled it since the beginning of your most recent turn,
>or it is not currently a creature, or the ability does not require
>tapping (check)
>The ability may be legally used during this phase or this portion of
>a phase (no restrictions written, so check)
>
>These are the total number of restrictions on when a fast effect of
>a permanent can be used. If you can find even a single ruling that
>supports another restriction that could, rationally, countermand this
>argument, quote it. Please! Until then, the card works as past
>rulings will lead us to believe, not as it perhaps should be thought
>to work.
>
>Assembly worker still has the text premitting it to change Mishra's
>Factory into an Assembly Worker.
>This ability is not targetted. It is a 4E card and doesn't say it is
>targetted, so it is not targetted. Period. 4E was published under
>modern targetting rules.
>Non targetted effects can be used EVEN WHEN IT IS TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE
>FOR THEM TO ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING.
Agreed.
>Consider that cards that name themselves can be considered to replace
>every incident of their name with "this card" Thus, Rainbow Vale will
>change controllers if tapped, even if it no longer a Rainbow Vale when
>it should change controllers.
>
The card isn't naming itself. If it becomes an assembly worker, all
instances of "Mishra's Factory" no longer refer to itself. Instances
of "Assembly Worker" do.
>The only argument I can see against this is either a specific ruling
>by the WotC rules team, which would, by current ruling precedent, be
>entirely out of the blue, or deciding that the ability is targetted.
This IS the ruling, as previously stated.
I think the card text needs cleaning up, but I understand the nature
of the ruling. I agree that it's just a ruling, and may not be the
most rational thing in the world. (or indeed, rational at all)
I think it makes sense, but that's just me.
If you really hate it, take it up with WOTC. Maby they'll clarify the
ruling or the card text.
Bri...
Brian Mudge
In article <DsL92...@news.hawaii.edu>,
Kyle Nishioka <nk...@Hawaii.Edu> wrote:
>Just remembered something, if the Factory is no longer a Factory once it
>animates into an Assembly Worker, the following scenario shouldn't be legal.
>
>1. Attack w/ 2/2.
>2. Animate MF and block.
Legal.
>3. Tap MF to pump itself.
Illegal, as you state. There is indeed no Factory there. Fortunately,
the Assembly Worker has the same power.
The power dosen't even mention the Factory.
>End result is a tapped 3/3 Worker blocking a 2/2. If the Assembly worker
>overwrites the MF completely, you shouldn't be able to this.
It dosen't overwrite it completely. The power "Mishra's Factory
becomes..." is the only part that dosen't work on an Assembly Worker.
This is true only because the NAME of the card specifically changes from
"Mishra's Factory" to "Assembly Worker". The cards other capabilities
remain intact.
Bri...
Paul Barclay
He's got a point, though. "Assembly Worker" as a land type has only
the ability "2/2 creature", as that's all that is detailed for it (if
you change something into a basic Forest, then it doesn't keep any of
it's usual abilities). I know that they wanted the Assembly Worker to
both be able to tap for mana and to give the +1/+1, but if you read it
like this, it's all or nothing.
Paul Barclay.
David DeLaney
eef...@acmey.gatech.edu (RICHARD KENAN) writes:
>Assembly worker still has the text premitting it to change Mishra's
>Factory into an Assembly Worker.
This is the key point. This text does _not_ mean "can turn any Mishra's
Factory into an Assembly Worker". It _means_ "can turn this card here, the
one you're reading, from a Mishra's Factory into an Assembly Worker". It's
_phrased_ like it is because the powers-that-be at WotC don't like the
phrase "this card" [too easily misinterpreted]; all cards in Magic that
are phrased like this are referring to the card itself. It's just that
there isn't anything else in Magic, really, that can change its own name
the way the Factory can. The power only works when the Factory's a Factory -
when the Factory's not a Factory, it can't use a power that refers both
to the card itself and to the card being a Mishra's Factory, because it's
_not a Factory any more_.
Note that the third power doesn't touch a Mishra's Factory at _all_; only
the second power on the card affects Mishra's Factories.
>Consider that cards that name themselves can be considered to replace
>every incident of their name with "this card" Thus, Rainbow Vale will
>change controllers if tapped, even if it no longer a Rainbow Vale when
>it should change controllers.
Anything that can change the name of a Rainbow Vale _also_ changes it
to a basic land, and basic lands just plain don't have the Rainbow Vale
ability, so that's not analogous.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Brian Mudge
Ok, to sum up the running debate so far:
1.) Someone wanted to know if a Mishra's Factory could be used as a Mana
sink, which could possibly be interpreted as: "Can a Mishra's Factory
that's already been animated act as a mana sink."
2.) I answered that yes, it could.
3.) Someone, I think David, pointed out that an Assembly Worker wasn't
a Mishra's Factory, because it specifically changes its name as
part of its ability.
4.) I saw the error of my ways, checked the card rulings, and retracted.
5.) Many people find this to be strange, and have offered up a host of
reasons that an Assembly Worker should be able to activate its
"animation" power, even if it has no effect. There is, they correctly
point out, no reason you can't launch an untargeted fast effect that
dosen't do anything, like pumping a point of black mana into a
Pestillence when there are no creatures in play and all players are
protected from damage. Similarly, you can use flashfires when there
are no plains in play, etc.
My counterarguements to this have been a little weak, and I submit
for your approval a new one:
Costs and restrictions on the use of a fast effect may be placed on the
right side of the colon that indicates the cost of declaration of a fast
effect. If such a restriction exists, then paying the cost on the left
side of the colon may not be permitted unless the restriction's are also
met.
I submit, as exibit "A", The Skull Catapult.
The Skull Catapult reads:
"1,T : Sacrifice a creature to have Skull Catapult deal 2 damage to
target creature or player."
So, can we merely pay 1 mana and tap the Catapult to deal 2 points of
damage to a target creature or player? Of course not, we must also have
a creature in play to sacrifice to the catapult so it can get its job
done.
I submit, as exibit "B", the much despised disrupting scepter.
The Disrupting Sceptre reads:
"3, T: Target player chooses and discards one card from his or her hand.
Use this ability only during your turn."
As can be seen, you can'd use this ability when it's not your turn.
This remains true even if the sceptre is untapped, you have the mana,
and you have a target opponent. The restriction is there, so the
effect can't be announced.
This brings us to Mishra's Factory.
Mishra's Factory reads:
Mishra's Factory
Land
T: Add one colorless mana to your mana pool
1: Mishra's Factory becomes an Assembly Worker, a 2/2 artifact creature,
until end of turn. Assembly Worker still counts as a land but cannot
be tapped for mana the turn it comes into play.
T: Target assembly worker gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
Applying the second ability, and allowing it to resolve, changes the
text of the card to read:
Assembly Worker
Artifact Creature Land
T: Add one colorless mana to your mana pool
1: Mishra's Factory becomes an Assembly Worker, a 2/2 artifact creature,
until end of turn. Assembly Worker still counts as a land but cannot
be tapped for mana the turn it comes into play.
T: Target assembly worker gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
2/2
Note that the second power on this card specifies that a Mishra's
Factory, and not an Assembly worker can become an assembly worker.
Because the card is no longer a Mishra's factory, and the card specifies
a Mishra's Factory as being elligible to use the ability, this effect
cannot be announced. This is quite similar to the use of a Disrupting
Sceptre, regardless of the lack of a Tap symbol.
Kyle, Paul, does this arguement at last lay to rest the question?
BTW, The other powers on the Assembly Worker don't specify a Mishra's
Factory, so can be used by the Assembly Worker, as long as it's not
summoning sick.
Bri...
Chris Knight
I believe there is a ruling relating to this exact thing, which says that yes
you can use a factory as a mana sink but only once as an instant (i.e. you can
dump 10 mana into it at one time.) Once it has changed, though, you cannot
later dump more mana into it.
RICHARD KENAN
Brian Mudge (mu...@rintintin.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
: Ok, to sum up the running debate so far:
Yes, because sacrifices are costs and are paid (except in really strange
circumstances, ie Pox, Balance) when the effect is declared. There are
no strange costs involved in Mishra's Factory.
: I submit, as exibit "B", the much despised disrupting scepter.
: The Disrupting Sceptre reads:
: "3, T: Target player chooses and discards one card from his or her hand.
: Use this ability only during your turn."
: As can be seen, you can'd use this ability when it's not your turn.
: This remains true even if the sceptre is untapped, you have the mana,
: and you have a target opponent. The restriction is there, so the
: effect can't be announced.
If Mishra's Factory said "Use this ability only when this card is not
an Assembly Worker" or some such, then fine. It doesn't.
: This brings us to Mishra's Factory.
: Mishra's Factory reads:
: Mishra's Factory
: Land
: T: Add one colorless mana to your mana pool
: 1: Mishra's Factory becomes an Assembly Worker, a 2/2 artifact creature,
: until end of turn. Assembly Worker still counts as a land but cannot
: be tapped for mana the turn it comes into play.
: T: Target assembly worker gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
: Applying the second ability, and allowing it to resolve, changes the
: text of the card to read:
: Assembly Worker
: Artifact Creature Land
: T: Add one colorless mana to your mana pool
: 1: Mishra's Factory becomes an Assembly Worker, a 2/2 artifact creature,
: until end of turn. Assembly Worker still counts as a land but cannot
: be tapped for mana the turn it comes into play.
: T: Target assembly worker gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
: 2/2
: Note that the second power on this card specifies that a Mishra's
: Factory, and not an Assembly worker can become an assembly worker.
: Because the card is no longer a Mishra's factory, and the card specifies
: a Mishra's Factory as being elligible to use the ability, this effect
: cannot be announced. This is quite similar to the use of a Disrupting
: Sceptre, regardless of the lack of a Tap symbol.
Not really. Disrupting Sceptre states that you can only use it during
your turn. Mishra's Factory doesn't state that you cannot activate it
if it is not Mishra's Factory. It clearly implies that it cannot *DO*
anything useful if you use it when it is not Mishra's Factory, but it
does not state when you can use it.
Cards may impose costs or preconditions for use after the colon in a
special ability definition, but in 4E and later, all such costs and
preconditions are clearly labeled as such. Mishra's Factory lacks any
such clear text forbidding the use of its ability under any circumstances,
except for the part that it cannot be tapped for mana if it is a creature
and is sick. This isn't terribly relevand, so lets ignore it.
: Kyle, Paul, does this arguement at last lay to rest the question?
Well, I'm not Kyle or Paul, and it doesn't lay to rest the question. I
can accept that WotC Rules Team has ruled on this matter (I haven't
looked it up, but David doesn't usually post without ruling support on
such matters). I cannot see or accept any of the reasonings for why
the card *SHOULD* work the way it seems to have been ruled to work. No
general rulings currently in existence forbid using an Assembly Worker
as a mana sink. I can't really conceive of any general ruling that
could do so, that would not amount to a general ruling specifically and
exclusively aimed at Mishra's Factory. I'd rather have errata, or a
ruling that it works the way it's written.
My general argument is that Mishra's Factory's second ability is a
global effect. Now, before you jump on me, consider that, as it is
written, the effect can only hit one card anyway, no matter what else
is in play. When a card refers to itself by name, it means "this
card right here, that you're reading." There can only be one such
card in play at any time. All instances of that card that are also
Mishra's Factory become Assembly Workers when the cost is paid. If
no such instances exist, tough. There can be, looking at the Magic
card set objectively, either 1 or 0 such cards. The ability doesn't
say that it requires the 1, so you can pay it with 0 as well. The
only effects that care about whether something is in play are those
that explicitly count the somethings, or those that target the
somethings. Mishra's Factory does neither.
Brian Mudge
In article <4pes9m$g...@shellx.best.com>,
That is quite correct. A Factory can be used once in the same stack as
an infinite mana sink. After the animate effect resolves, it's not a
Factory anymore, and so can't be used as a mana sink.
That's the ruling from the d'angelo Summaries. We're just trying to
make sense of them.
Bri...
RICHARD KENAN
Brian Mudge (mu...@rintintin.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
: In article <4pes9m$g...@shellx.best.com>,
I can accept this as a ruling, but by current Magic general rulings,
it is an *UNSUPPORTED* ruling. It exists because, apparently, some
person in a position of rules-making authority says it works that
way. There are no rules that exist that make the card text say what
it has been ruled to say. Darn it, *I WANT ERRATA TO MISHRA'S FACTORY
TO MAKE IT READ THE WAY IT WORKS!*
John Wetmiller
In article <4pe3ft$c...@gaia.ns.utk.edu>,
David DeLaney <d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu> wrote:
>
>eef...@acmey.gatech.edu (RICHARD KENAN) writes:
>
>>Consider that cards that name themselves can be considered to replace
>>every incident of their name with "this card" Thus, Rainbow Vale will
>>change controllers if tapped, even if it no longer a Rainbow Vale when
>>it should change controllers.
>
>to a basic land, and basic lands just plain don't have the Rainbow Vale
>ability, so that's not analogous.
>
have the same name as it had before. Note that the explanation of this
is uglily derived. (well, so is "uglily" for that matter :)
Snow-coveredness has so far been treated as part of the name of a land
that is to be considered snow-covered, as opposed to treating it as an
ability of a land in the same manner as banding is treated as an ability
of a creature. (eg, a Benalish Hero is not a "Banding Benalish Hero")
We also know that when changing the type of a land, the snow-coveredness
or non-snow-coveredness of that land does not change. Thus if a Rainbow
Vale comes underneath the influence of a Blood Moon, and *then* if an
Arcum's Weathervane sets the snow falling on that (now) Mountain, its
name becomes "Snow-Covered Mountain". If the Blood Moon goes away, its
name becomes "Snow-Covered Rainbow Vale" which is not the same as
"Rainbow Vale" despite the fact that in all respects other than snow-
coveredness they are treated the same.
--------------------------------GRS:04/16/96
Snow-Covered Lands:
...
Cards which ask you to specifically name a card, such as Nebuchadnezzar,
do not see "Swamp" and "Snow-Covered Swamp" as the same name. They are
distinctly named cards. [D'Angelo 01/07/96]
--------------------------------------------
HOWEVER, there would seem to be an outside shot that name-changes have
massive relevance. To motivate this ambiguity, we return to the problem
with Enduring Renewal vs. Dreams of the Dead. When these effects come
into play, one attribute of their target that is "locked in" at activation
and that also must stay true at resolution is the location/state in which
the target should be when the effects resolve on it. If the target is
not in the location/state where the resolving effect expected it to be,
that effect fizzles.
Now. What if another "locked in" attribute for any remote targetting
effect, (as a basic rule), is the card's/token's name? Sure you can
target any land with a Stone Rain, but when you announce the spell
against a Mishra's Factory, is the target's name "locked in" for
resolution? If so then the Stone Rain expects to find 'the land named
"Mishra's Factory" which had better be "in play"' it targetted or else
it'll fizzle. I'm sure people can see the conclusion to which this leads.
Of course this does not extend to cards that either are forced to or
by choice affect themselves. This is largely because WotC has reserved
special wording for most of these cases such that these effects work
in such a way that normal "locked in" stuff does not necessarily apply.
Now, don't assume any of this is true, (in fact, one should assume this
is false), but it *is* worth thinking about IMHO.
John Wetmiller
jpwet...@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca
Paul Barclay
> My counterarguements to this have been a little weak, and I submit
> for your approval a new one:
>
> Costs and restrictions on the use of a fast effect may be placed on the
> right side of the colon that indicates the cost of declaration of a fast
> effect. If such a restriction exists, then paying the cost on the left
> side of the colon may not be permitted unless the restriction's are also
> met.
>
> I submit, as exibit "A", The Skull Catapult.
> The Skull Catapult reads:
> "1,T : Sacrifice a creature to have Skull Catapult deal 2 damage to
> target creature or player."
>
> So, can we merely pay 1 mana and tap the Catapult to deal 2 points of
> damage to a target creature or player? Of course not, we must also have
> a creature in play to sacrifice to the catapult so it can get its job
> done.
Sacrifices are costs (do A to do B), so this isn't a good example.
> I submit, as exibit "B", the much despised disrupting scepter.
> The Disrupting Sceptre reads:
> "3, T: Target player chooses and discards one card from his or her hand.
> Use this ability only during your turn."
>
> As can be seen, you can'd use this ability when it's not your turn.
> This remains true even if the sceptre is untapped, you have the mana,
> and you have a target opponent. The restriction is there, so the
> effect can't be announced.
Yep. This specifically tells you that it cannot be used at certain
times.
> This brings us to Mishra's Factory.
> Mishra's Factory reads:
[snip - dodgy newsreader]
> Applying the second ability, and allowing it to resolve, changes the
> text of the card to read:
>
> Assembly Worker
> Artifact Creature Land
> T: Add one colorless mana to your mana pool
> 1: Mishra's Factory becomes an Assembly Worker, a 2/2 artifact creature,
> until end of turn. Assembly Worker still counts as a land but cannot
> be tapped for mana the turn it comes into play.
> T: Target assembly worker gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
>
> 2/2
Erm, does it? An Assembly Worker isn't a defined land type, so in
theory, it would have none of the abilities except "Assembly Worker"
"Artifact Creature Land" and "2/2" (the only things mentioned in the
definition of "Assembly Worker"). Now, this isn't what they intended,
but it does seem to be all or nothing here.
> Note that the second power on this card specifies that a Mishra's
> Factory, and not an Assembly worker can become an assembly worker.
> Because the card is no longer a Mishra's factory, and the card specifies
> a Mishra's Factory as being elligible to use the ability, this effect
> cannot be announced. This is quite similar to the use of a Disrupting
> Sceptre, regardless of the lack of a Tap symbol.
Not really (well, slightly). The ability only says what the ability
can do, and not when the ability can be used, so it doesn't impose
a restriction on the ability (you can still use a Disrupting Scepter
on an opponent with no cards in hand - not quite the same thing, but
close).
> Kyle, Paul, does this arguement at last lay to rest the question?
>
> BTW, The other powers on the Assembly Worker don't specify a Mishra's
> Factory, so can be used by the Assembly Worker, as long as it's not
> summoning sick.
As long as they are actually there.
Paul Barclay.
David DeLaney
Paul Barclay <pb...@hermes.cam.ac.uk> writes:
>Erm, does it? An Assembly Worker isn't a defined land type,
Yes it is; so is Mishra's Factory. True, Assembly Worker is _only_ defined
_on_ Mishra's Factory itself - but you can give Illusionary Presence
"Assembly Worker-walk", for instance.
Ingo Warnke
Brian Mudge (mu...@rintintin.Colorado.EDU) wrote:
: In article <4pes9m$g...@shellx.best.com>,
: Chris Knight <clau...@shellx.best.com> wrote:
: >
: >I believe there is a ruling relating to this exact thing, which says that yes
: >you can use a factory as a mana sink but only once as an instant (i.e. you can
: >dump 10 mana into it at one time.) Once it has changed, though, you cannot
: >later dump more mana into it.
: That is quite correct. A Factory can be used once in the same stack as
Please note that this ruling has been reversed to match the general rule that
a reference on a card to its own name means *this card*:
The ability to turn it into an Assembly Worker can be used while it is
an Assembly Worker and will reset the power/toughness to 2/2 if it had
been changed by something like a Sorceress Queen or such. [Aahz 06/17/96]
(REVERSAL)
Ingo Warnke