Help:Chains of Mephistopheles
Chin Leng
I need help on the following card. Thanks in advance for any help.
How does Chains of Mephistopheles affect cards like Ancestral Recall, Winds of
Change, Wheel of Fortune and Jayemdae Tome. I read from web site mox.perl.com
that the card affects all the draw of the above mentioned cards except Jayemdae
Tome. Jayemdae Tome can be activated without having to discard one card from
hand, why is this so? And the rest of the socery like wheel of fortune
requires you to discard 7 cards to draw 7 cards? How dow the socery like wheel
of fortune resolves? Do you discard 7 cards first then you draw 7 cards? If
you don't have enough cards then you have to start removing cards from top of
library to graveyard? Or, can you draw one card then discard that card drawn
to draw the next card? Thanks for any help given.
Btw, is the effect of Land Tax cumulative?
Later,
Chin Leng.
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U there will be nothing . Only I U BA18...@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg U
N will remain." - Bene Gesserit rite N Nanyang Technological University N
E E <<Singapore>> E
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- This is my sig.
mark balabon
: Hi there,
: I need help on the following card. Thanks in advance for any help.
: How does Chains of Mephistopheles affect cards like Ancestral Recall, Winds
: of Change, Wheel of Fortune and Jayemdae Tome. I read from web site
: mox.perl.com that the card affects all the draw of the above mentioned cards
: except Jayemdae Tome. Jayemdae Tome can be activated without having to
: discard one card from hand, why is this so? And the rest of the socery
: like wheel of fortune requires you to discard 7 cards to draw 7 cards? How
: do the socery like wheel of fortune resolves? Do you discard 7 cards first
: then you draw 7 cards? If you don't have enough cards then you have to
: start removing cards from top of library to graveyard? Or, can you draw one
: card then discard that card drawn to draw the next card? Thanks for any
: help given.
Chains is a wonderful card. The way it works is you have to discard a card
from your hand *before* drawing any cards other than the first one during a
draw phase. If you ancestral someone, they must discard three cards from
their hand before drawing three from the library. If they do not have three
cards, they must mill cards off of the library. Winds of change becomes a
mindtwist, as does wheel of fortune or timetwister. Actually, wheel becomes a
mindtwist and a 7 card millstone, but it happens to you to. As for Jayemdae
tome, the reason it works is because you use it during your opponents draw
phase. At any other time, you have to discard a card first just like with
ancestral. Other cards that work with it are Elkin bottle (because you don't
"draw" any cards - you put them in the bottle) and necropotence (again, no
cards drawn - they are set aside and then put into your hand at the beginning
of your discard phase).
: Btw, is the effect of Land Tax cumulative?
Yes.
: Later,
: Chin Leng.
Bally
Mike Marcelais
| Hi there,
| I need help on the following card. Thanks in advance for any help.
| How does Chains of Mephistopheles affect cards like Ancestral Recall, Winds of
| Change, Wheel of Fortune and Jayemdae Tome. I read from web site mox.perl.com
| that the card affects all the draw of the above mentioned cards except Jayemdae
| Tome. Jayemdae Tome can be activated without having to discard one card from
| hand, why is this so?
It isn't immune. What you _can_ do with JT (and with some of the other
instant speed drawing effects) is draw 1 card during your _opponent's draw_
phase since the first card drawn by each player in (any) draw phase is immune
(text of Chains). If you use JT at any other time, it will trigger the Chains
just nicely.
And the rest of the socery like wheel of fortune
| requires you to discard 7 cards to draw 7 cards? How dow the socery like wheel
| of fortune resolves? Do you discard 7 cards first then you draw 7 cards? If
| you don't have enough cards then you have to start removing cards from top of
| library to graveyard? Or, can you draw one card then discard that card drawn
| to draw the next card? Thanks for any help given.
Wheel of Fortune makes you discard 7 cards, then draw 7. Since your hand is
empty when you need to draw the seven cards, then you will have to take
7 cards from the top of your library and put them into your graveyard.
| Btw, is the effect of Land Tax cumulative?
Yes.
--
+------------------------+----------------------------+
| Mike Marcelais | mrma...@eos.ncsu.edu |
| Moonstone Dragon | Magic: The Gathering Judge |
| -==(UDIC)==- | Author of ChrHack 2.3 |
+-----------------------------------------------------+
Thomas R Wylie
mark balabon <bala...@bu.edu> wrote:
>Chains is a wonderful card. The way it works is you have to discard a card
>from your hand *before* drawing any cards other than the first one during a
>draw phase. If you ancestral someone, they must discard three cards from
Actually, each card draw is its own 'event', so the sequence would be
discard-draw-discard-draw-discard-draw. Replace "discard" with "mill"
as appropriate to the number of cards in their hand at the time.
Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Lutz Hofmann
Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>Actually, each card draw is its own 'event', so the sequence would be
>discard-draw-discard-draw-discard-draw. Replace "discard" with "mill"
>as appropriate to the number of cards in their hand at the time.
hmm,
following situation: 2x Chains of Mephistopheles are in play.
One player uses Sylvan Library or Brainstorm and
has no cards in hand (say there was an instant in his
hand, which was cast in response to the announcement
of carddrawing effect.
How many cards does he have in hand after resolution?
How many cards went to the graveyard (were milled) and why?
Best guess one card in hand and four resp. six cards.
Yours Lutz
l...@cs.tu-berlin.de
--
Happiness? - - - Roger Taylor
George W. Bayles
: In article <4e49sk$b...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>,
: Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
: >Actually, each card draw is its own 'event', so the sequence would be
: >discard-draw-discard-draw-discard-draw. Replace "discard" with "mill"
: >as appropriate to the number of cards in their hand at the time.
: hmm,
: following situation: 2x Chains of Mephistopheles are in play.
: One player uses Sylvan Library or Brainstorm and
: has no cards in hand (say there was an instant in his
: hand, which was cast in response to the announcement
: of carddrawing effect.
: How many cards does he have in hand after resolution?
: How many cards went to the graveyard (were milled) and why?
Brainstorm: (non-draw phase)
Mill 2, Draw 1
Discard 1, Mill 1, Draw 1
Discard 1, Mill 1, Draw 1
Put 1 back
Net: 0 cards in hand, 6 cards went to graveyard
Brainstorm: (opponent's draw phase)
Draw 1
Discard 1, Mill 1, Draw 1
Discard 1, Mill 1, Draw 1
Put 1 back
Net: 0 cards in hand, 4 cards went to graveyard
RADXZONE
>following situation: 2x Chains of Mephistopheles are in play.
> One player uses Sylvan Library or Brainstorm and
> has no cards in hand (say there was an instant in his
> hand, which was cast in response to the announcement
> of carddrawing effect.
>
>How many cards does he have in hand after resolution?
>How many cards went to the graveyard (were milled) and why?
2 Chains in Play is horrendous. No cards in hand, because for every card drawn you must
discard one or the top one goes in the graveyard.
6 dumped off and none in hand.
Thomas R Wylie
Lutz Hofmann <l...@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
>following situation: 2x Chains of Mephistopheles are in play.
> One player uses Sylvan Library or Brainstorm and
> has no cards in hand (say there was an instant in his
> hand, which was cast in response to the announcement
> of carddrawing effect.
>
>How many cards does he have in hand after resolution?
>How many cards went to the graveyard (were milled) and why?
If he plays Brainstorm during the draw phase, before having drawn
any cards that phase, it will be draw-discard-draw-discard-draw, then
put the remaining card back. In all other cases, the result will be
mill-draw-discard-draw-discard-draw, then put the remaining card back.
If you use Sylvan Library before drawing any other cards, it will be
draw-discard-draw, then put 2 cards back. Except that you only have one
card in your hand, so you're going to be paying at least 4 life. If you have
already drawn any cards, then it's mill-draw-discard-draw, then put back
your one card and pay 4 life.
Doug Curry
>My spies tell me that Lutz Hofmann (l...@cs.tu-berlin.de) wrote:
>| In article <4e49sk$b...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>,
>| Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>| >Actually, each card draw is its own 'event', so the sequence would be
>| >discard-draw-discard-draw-discard-draw. Replace "discard" with "mill"
>| >as appropriate to the number of cards in their hand at the time.
>| hmm,
>| following situation: 2x Chains of Mephistopheles are in play.
>| One player uses Sylvan Library or Brainstorm and
>| has no cards in hand (say there was an instant in his
>| hand, which was cast in response to the announcement
>| of carddrawing effect.
>| How many cards does he have in hand after resolution?
>[Sylvan Library]
><starting with an empty hand>
>Draw your `normal' draw for your turn. This draw is immune to the chains.
>Try to draw 2 cards from the Sylvan Library. Result is that you must toss
> 4 cards in order to draw 2 cards. Since you cannot, you discard the one
> card that you have and mill 3 cards into you graveyard and end up drawing
> none.
>Now you must return 2 cards drawn this turn or pay 8 life. Since you have
> no cards you cannot do this. 4th Edition Sylvan Libraries make it a cost
> to keep the cards, meaning that if you don't pay the cost and you don't
> have any cards to return, the `return 2 cards' just fizzles. Earlier
> editions made it a penalty to not return cards, so you'd be losing 8 life
> and there is no way around it.
>Net result: empty hand, 3 cards milled, 8 life lost.
Draw normal. Invoke Sylvan Library.(stupid)
Draw one, toss both.
Draw one, toss one, mill one.
Cannot return Sylvan bonus draws, no effect (4e).
Net effect: no hand, 4 cards gone to graveyard.
>[Brainstorm]
><string with hand containing only Brainstorm>
>Cast Brainstorm
> [no more effects]
>Brainstorm resolves, you try to draw 3 cards. In order to draw 3 cards, you
> must first discard 6. Since you do not have 6 cards in your hand, 6
> cards get milled and you do not draw any.
>Now you must return 2 cards. Since you do not have 2 cards in your hand, this
> effect fizzles.
>Net result: empty hand, 6 cards milled.
Draw one. Toss two (can't) so toss one, mill one.
Draw one. Toss two (can't) so toss one, mill one.
Draw one. Toss two (can't) so toss one, mill one.
Net effect is correct, but resolution order is wrong. You do not
discard 6 to draw 3, you draw 3, one at a time, and discard 2 each
time you draw one.
Doug Curry Houston, Texas
All opinions expressed are my own, and not necessarily
those of Logica, Synercom, or Paranet.
Mike Marcelais
| hmm,
[Brainstorm]
<string with hand containing only Brainstorm>
Cast Brainstorm
[no more effects]
Brainstorm resolves, you try to draw 3 cards. In order to draw 3 cards, you
must first discard 6. Since you do not have 6 cards in your hand, 6
cards get milled and you do not draw any.
Now you must return 2 cards. Since you do not have 2 cards in your hand, this
effect fizzles.
Net result: empty hand, 6 cards milled.
--
Thomas R Wylie
OK, my previous response forgot there were two Chains in play (duh).
Assuming you have already drawn you first card of the draw phase, and
thus you are at one card...
Sylvan Library: discard-mill-draw-discard-mill-draw. You only have one
card left in your hand, so you're paying at least 4 life.
Brainstorm: discard-mill-draw-discard-mill-draw-discard-mill-draw.
Put your remaining card back onto your library.
Mike Marcelais
| mrma...@eos.ncsu.edu (Mike Marcelais) wrote:
| >| hmm,
| Draw normal. Invoke Sylvan Library.(stupid)
| Draw one, toss both.
| Draw one, toss one, mill one.
| Cannot return Sylvan bonus draws, no effect (4e).
| Net effect: no hand, 4 cards gone to graveyard.
If you read the Chains, you must discard or mill _before_ you actually get
to draw the card and if you mill then you mill _instead_ of drawing a card.
So you must toss cards before you can draw the first card. Since you don't
have two cards to discard, you discard 1, mill 1 and lose the draw.
| >[Brainstorm]
| ><string with hand containing only Brainstorm>
| >Cast Brainstorm
| > [no more effects]
| >Brainstorm resolves, you try to draw 3 cards. In order to draw 3 cards, you
| > must first discard 6. Since you do not have 6 cards in your hand, 6
| > cards get milled and you do not draw any.
| >Now you must return 2 cards. Since you do not have 2 cards in your hand, this
| > effect fizzles.
| >Net result: empty hand, 6 cards milled.
| Draw one. Toss two (can't) so toss one, mill one.
| Draw one. Toss two (can't) so toss one, mill one.
| Draw one. Toss two (can't) so toss one, mill one.
| Net effect is correct, but resolution order is wrong. You do not
| discard 6 to draw 3, you draw 3, one at a time, and discard 2 each
| time you draw one.
Again, you must discard/mill _before_ you can draw and if you mill cards,
then you don't get the draw (because you mill a card instead of drawing).
David DeLaney
:Lutz Hofmann <l...@cs.tu-berlin.de> wrote:
:>following situation: 2x Chains of Mephistopheles are in play.
:> One player uses Sylvan Library or Brainstorm and
:> has no cards in hand (say there was an instant in his
:> hand, which was cast in response to the announcement
:> of carddrawing effect.
:>
:>How many cards does he have in hand after resolution?
:>Best guess one card in hand and four resp. six cards.
:
:If he plays Brainstorm during the draw phase, before having drawn
:any cards that phase, it will be draw-discard-draw-discard-draw, then
:put the remaining card back. In all other cases, the result will be
:mill-draw-discard-draw-discard-draw, then put the remaining card back.
That's for _one_ Chains. For two it's draw-discard-mill-mill-mill-mill and
mill-mill-mill-mill-mill-mill respectively. And the mill _replaces_ the
draw if it happens, not just happens before it, so empty-hand-Brainstorm
that's not the first draw, with one Chains, gives mill-mill-mill, not
mill-draw-discard-draw-discard.
:If you use Sylvan Library before drawing any other cards, it will be
:draw-discard-draw, then put 2 cards back. Except that you only have one
:card in your hand, so you're going to be paying at least 4 life. If you have
:already drawn any cards, then it's mill-draw-discard-draw, then put back
:your one card and pay 4 life.
Again that's for _one_ Chains; for two it's draw-discard-mill then put two
back [cost: 8 life] or mill-mill-mill-mill then put two back [cost: 8 life],
and the second is, again, mill-mill for one Chains, since the mill _replaces_
the normal draw...
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeableURLAPvi
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Lutz Hofmann
>Assuming you have already drawn you first card of the draw phase, and
>thus you are at one card...
>Sylvan Library: discard-mill-draw-discard-mill-draw. You only have one
>card left in your hand, so you're paying at least 4 life.
>Brainstorm: discard-mill-draw-discard-mill-draw-discard-mill-draw.
>Put your remaining card back onto your library.
I am still confused. There are dissenting voices that the mill replaces
the draw. I interpret your statement above that the mill replace the
discard.
This would mean, that given at least two CoM in play and drawing at
least two cards, a player ends up with one card.
Under the other interpretation a player would end up with an empty hand
What is it?
Yours Sincerely Lutz Hofmann
l...@cs.tu-berlin.de
--
Cats don't adopt people. They adopt refrigerators.
-- SOLOMON SHORT
Mike Marcelais
| Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
| >OK, my previous response forgot there were two Chains in play (duh).
| >Assuming you have already drawn you first card of the draw phase, and
| >thus you are at one card...
| >Sylvan Library: discard-mill-draw-discard-mill-draw. You only have one
| >card left in your hand, so you're paying at least 4 life.
| >Brainstorm: discard-mill-draw-discard-mill-draw-discard-mill-draw.
| >Put your remaining card back onto your library.
| I am still confused. There are dissenting voices that the mill replaces
| the draw.
Well, the Mill _does_ replace the draw:
Chains of Mephistopheles lR Enchantment 1B
Every time a player draws a card, that player must first discard a card
from his or her hand. If there are no cards in player's hand, take top
card from library and place it in the graveyard instead of drawing.
This enchantment does not apply to the first card drawn by a player
during the draw phase.
[see end of fourth line]
Hence, it would be (for Brainstorm):
discard-mill-(draw is lost)-mill-mill-(draw is lost)-mill-mill-(draw
is lost)-(return card part fails since you have no cards in your hand)
| This would mean, that given at least two CoM in play and drawing at
| least two cards, a player ends up with one card.
| Under the other interpretation a player would end up with an empty hand
--