Oath of Druids and Echo creatures
Odin Renhammar
a Crater Hellion on the table at the same time. I cant pay the Echo. My
opponent has 1 Creature out. Do I get to find another creature with the Oath
or not?
Oath of Druids
1G
Enchantment
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, if that player controls fewer
creatures than any of his or her opponents, the player may reveal cards from
the top of his or her library until he or she reveals a creature card. The
player puts that card into play and all other cards revealed this way into
his or her graveyard.
Crater Hellion
4RR
Creature - Beast
6/6
Echo #(At the beginning of your next upkeep after this permanent comes under
your control, sacrifice it unless you pay its mana cost.)#
When Crater Hellion comes into play, it deals 4 damage to each other
creature.
I want to find a new creature (the Crater hellion is not good anymore), but
I dont think I can....because the Oath ability never triggers...is this
correct?
Thanks in advance guys!
Aaron Huntsman
news:EmgG7.121$m4....@news010.worldonline.se...
> Im building an Oath deck right now, and I often find myself with an Oath
and
> a Crater Hellion on the table at the same time. I cant pay the Echo. My
> opponent has 1 Creature out. Do I get to find another creature with the
Oath
> or not?
Not during that upkeep, no.
Oath of Druids has a triggered ability in the format "At ..., if
[condition], [do this]". Triggered abilities worded like this check their
[condition] both when they resolve, and when they would trigger. Since you
don't control fewer creatures than your opponent when Oath's ability would
trigger, it doesn't trigger at all.
> I want to find a new creature (the Crater hellion is not good anymore),
but
> I dont think I can....because the Oath ability never triggers...is this
> correct?
That's correct.
-AMH
Lee Sharpe
The Oath's ability always *triggers*. Whether or not it has an effect
when it resolves is a different matter. However, you can choose this.
Both the echo ability of the Crater Hellion and the Oath's ability are
triggered abilities that trigger of the same event (the beginning of your
upkeep). Since they are both controlled by you, you can place them on the
stack in any order you like.
In this case, you probably want to place the Oath's on first, then the
Carrion Hellion's. When the Carrion Hellion's echo resolves, you have to
sacrifice it because you can't pay the echo cost. Then, when the Oath's
ability resolves, it checks to see that you have zero creatures, and your
opponent has one. (That's right, it checks this on resolution, not when
it goes on the stack). Since you do have less, you can go through the
library and get the creature card as stipulated on the Oath.
Hope this helps.
-- Lee Sharpe
Lee Sharpe
After reading Aaron's post, I realized I read the card wrong. Sorry.
Conditionals are checked on triggering and resoulution. My fault; sorry
again for any inconvenience.
-- Lee Sharpe
Christian Sieber
Triggered abilities (abilities with 'when', 'whenever', or 'at')
sometimes have conditions specified with an 'if'. Those conditions
must be true when the trigger event or game state occurs or the
ability will not go on the stack. In addition, those conditions must
be true when the ability resolves or the ability will be countered.
This mirrors the check for legal targets.
In this case, the trigger event occurs (the beginning of your upkeep)
but the condition is not true (you having less creatures) so the Oath
will not stack at all.
Christian Sieber
David DeLaney
>Im building an Oath deck right now, and I often find myself with an Oath and
>a Crater Hellion on the table at the same time. I cant pay the Echo. My
>opponent has 1 Creature out. Do I get to find another creature with the Oath
>or not?
Nope. Oath's "if clause" is right after the trigger condition... so is
checled for to see _if it triggers at all_, as well as again on resolution.
If you both have one creature as your upkeep starts, the Oath checks ... and
doesn't even trigger. No Oath ability goes on the stack. So you can't later
"get it to resolve", because it's not there in the first place.
You can -stop- an Oath ability from doing anything once it triggers, by
increasing your own stuff or decreasing all opponents'. But you can't
_get_ an Oath ability to work by doing stuff during upkeep - it triggers, or
doesn't, based on the situation as upkeep starts, only.
>Oath of Druids >1G >Enchantment
>At the beginning of each player's upkeep, if that player controls fewer
>creatures than any of his or her opponents, the player may reveal ...
>I want to find a new creature (the Crater hellion is not good anymore), but
>I dont think I can....because the Oath ability never triggers...is this
>correct?
This is exactly correct, right.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
>> Oath of Druids >> 1G >> Enchantment
>> At the beginning of each player's upkeep, if that player controls fewer
>
>The Oath's ability always *triggers*.
No... no, it doesn't.
There's a special rule for triggered abilities that have an "if" clause
right after the trigger event:
404.3. A triggered ability may read "When/Whenever/At ..., if [condition],
[effect]". The ability checks for the stated condition to be true when the
trigger event occurs. If it is, the ability triggers and goes on the stack. On
resolution, the ability rechecks the condition. If the condition isn't true at
either of those times, the ability does nothing. This rule is referred to as
the "intervening 'if' clause" rule. Note that the word "if" has only its normal
English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to
an "if" that immediately follows a trigger condition.
So the Oath does _not_ "always trigger", since it has that crucial "if"
clause there to check. Sometimes it triggers... and checks the "if" again
on resolution. Sometimes it doesn't trigger at all... and then nothing else
happens.
Patrik Linell
Well, it does trigger, but then it checks its condition and finds it
false, so it does nothing useful. You cannot find a new creature this
turn.
Patrik Linell
DCI level 1 judge (level 2 being imagined)