[WotC] October '98 Rulings Post
David DeLaney
quit worrying about whether I'm breaking my NDA when I answer questions about
these issues... To be followed almost immediately, as usual, by my Dave's
Comments On The Rulings, and by the Stuff Bethmo's Said over the past month
or two that didn't make it into the Rulings post but which still answers
questions that were asked.
Date: Sun, 18 Oct 98 22:16:45 UT
From: "Beth Moursund" <Scryb...@classic.msn.com>
Subject: FOR RELEASE: Urza rulings without the darn non-ASCII punctuation
Magic Rulings & Errata
A Summary of Recent Rulings
compiled by Beth Moursund
Rules Changes as of Urza's Saga:
1) If an effect doesn't specify its duration, it lasts "permanently."
In other words, it lasts until another effect changes the situation.
2) Trample is no longer a damage-redirection ability. Now, when an
attacking creature with trample deals combat damage, the player
distributing that damage can simply assign some or all of it to the
defending player once blockers have been dealt lethal damage.
Assigning trample damage is subject to the following rules:
* If the attacker is unblocked, it deals all its damage to the
defending player.
* If the attacker is blocked by one creature, it first deals damage
to the blocker. If it deals lethal damage to that creature, any
remaining damage may be divided as its controller chooses between the
blocker and the defending player. Because this distribution happens
before damage prevention, some or all the damage on the blocking
creature may later be prevented; this won't change the damage dealt
to the defending player.
* If the attacker is blocked by more than one creature, it first
deals damage to the blocking creatures. If it deals lethal damage to
all the blockers, any remaining damage may be divided as its
controller chooses between them and the defending player. Again, this
distribution happens before damage prevention.
Blocking creatures that can't receive combat damage, such as a
creature enchanted with Gaseous Form, are completely ignored when
assigning trample damage. If such a creature is the only blocker,
then all the trample damage is dealt to the defending player.
3) When an effect changes a permanent's type, the new type replaces
all previous and current types. Reminder text stating a card still
counts as a particular type, such as Stalking Stones's ("This
creature still counts as a land."), is now considered rules text.
This means that an animated Stalking Stones is both an artifact
creature and a land.
For example, when a "sleeping" enchantment becomes a creature, it
counts as only a creature, not a creature and an enchantment. If
Transmogrifying Licid's effect is applied to a creature that also
counts as a land, such as an animated forest, the forest counts as an
artifact creature, but no longer counts as a land.
4) Any time a spell or ability checks anything about a permanent
during resolution, it uses that permanent's current values. If the
permanent has left play, the spell or ability uses the last values it
had before leaving play. This rule applies both to the source and
targets of a spell or ability as well as to any other permanents it
may check.
5) The way we refer to damage in the Magic game has changed. Damage
is now "dealt" at the beginning of damage resolution and
"successfully dealt" at the end of damage prevention. On older cards,
"assign," "deal," and "damage" were all used to mean the same thing
in different contexts. The simpler language doesn't change the
function of any older cards; a future edition of The Duelist magazine
will include updated wordings for them.
6) When a card's text starts with, "At the time you play," the text
following that phrase is an additional cost of playing the card. The
additional cost must be paid when the card's casting cost is first
paid. For example, Raze reads, "At the time you play Raze, sacrifice
a land." To play Raze, you must pay one red mana and sacrifice a land.
General Rulings
1) The rules changes to trample make it stronger in some situations
and weaker in others. Here are some examples:
* A creature with trample can now deal damage to the defending player
even if blocked by a creature with protection from its color.
* If an attacker with trample is blocked by multiple creatures whose
combined toughness exceeds the attacker's power, the attacking player
can no longer deal any damage to the defending player.
* If an attacker with trample is blocked by a creature with banding, the
defending player decides how to distribute the damage.
Also note that "lethal damage" means "damage equal to its
toughness"--it has nothing to do with any abilities that may reduce
damage or prevent the creature from being destroyed. Finally,
remember that attacking players may assign trample damage between
blocking creatures however they wish. It's legal to assign all the
damage to one blocking creature and none to the defending player or
the other blocking creatures, even if this exceeds the first
creature's toughness.
2) Effects that modify the amount of damage dealt, such as Urza's
Armor and Furnace of Rath, are replacement abilities--they replace
the amount of damage that would normally be dealt with some other
amount. If two or more such abilities are in effect, apply their
modifications in the following order: effects the active player
controls, in the order that player chooses, then effects the
nonactive player controls, in the order that player chooses
(sometimes called "APNAP," which stands for "active player, nonactive
player").
If a spell or ability enables you to divide damage among several
creatures and/or players, divide the damage first, then apply effects
that modify the amount of damage dealt. For example, if Furnace of
Rath is in play when a trampling creature deals combat damage, you
first divide the damage according to the trample rules, then the
Furnace's effect doubles the amount dealt to each creature or player.
3) Echo is an upkeep cost. While Humility is in play, the cost is
removed. If you gain and lose control of a creature with echo
multiple times in one turn, you still pay its casting cost only once
during your next upkeep. If a creature with echo phases out, you must
pay the echo cost again during the upkeep after it phases back in
(because phased-out creatures aren't controlled by anyone).
Errata
1) Curfew should read, "Each player who controls a creature chooses
one of them and returns it to owner's hand."
2) Exhume should read, "Each player with a creature card in his or her
graveyard chooses one of them and puts that creature into play."
3) Karn, Silver Golem's second ability should read, "[ . . . ] power
and toughness each equal to its total casting cost until end of turn."
4) Lifeline should read, "Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard
and another creature is in play, put that creature back into play
under its owner's control at end of turn." In other words, its effect
works for all players.
5) Mishra's Helix should read, "{X}, {T}: Tap X target lands."
6) Remembrance should read, "[ . . . ] you may search your library
for a copy of that card."
7) Serra Avatar's second ability should read, "Whenever Serra Avatar
is put into a graveyard from anywhere, instead shuffle Serra Avatar
into owner's library." The "from anywhere" part means this ability
works when the Avatar is put into a graveyard from any
zone--someone's hand or library, limbo, and so on.
8) Wall of Junk should include, "Wall of Junk counts as a Wall.
(Walls cannot attack.)"
Specific Card Rulings
1) While Arcane Laboratory is in play, you can't play a buyback spell
twice in one turn. It doesn't matter whether it's the same spell card
or not.
2) Exhaustion affects the target opponent's next turn and all
permanents he or she controls at that time, regardless of whether
they were in play when Exhaustion resolved.
3) Ill-Gotten Gains enables you to choose from all the cards in your
graveyard, including those you just discarded.
4) If a card was a creature when it was put into its owner's
graveyard, it can be returned by Lifeline's effect, regardless of
whether the card is a creature card. For example, if a "sleeping"
enchantment has become a creature and is then destroyed while another
creature is in play, Lifeline will put the enchantment back into
play, but that enchantment will be "asleep" again.
5) If several creatures and Lifeline are all in play, and all the
creatures go to their owners' graveyards at the same time (because of
Wrath of God, for instance), Lifeline's effect will put all of them
back into play at end of turn.
6) Lifeline and Ball Lightning interact in a very messy way. Here's
how. (All the situations below assume that Ball Lightning's
controller also controls another creature.)
First, let's say you control Lifeline and play Ball Lightning, and
the Ball Lightning survives to the end of the turn. At the end of the
turn, first the Ball Lightning is buried, then Lifeline puts it back
into play. Ball Lightning buries itself again, and the process
repeats. Under the rules for resolving endless loops, both players
pick a number, and the process repeats that many times and then stops
(even if this leaves the game in an "impossible" position). In this
scenario, therefore, the Ball Lightning ends up in play.
Next, let's say you control Lifeline and Ball Lightning, but the Ball
Lightning is destroyed during combat. This time, at the end of the
turn, Lifeline's effect puts Ball Lightning back into play first
(rather than the Lightning burying itself first). Ball Lightning then
buries itself. The process begins to repeat when Lifeline's effect
puts the Ball Lightning back into play. Again, the loop is repeated
some number of times, but because the Ball Lightning burying itself
is the last step in this repeating process, it ends up in its owner's
graveyard.
Finally, let's say one player controls Lifeline and the other
controls Ball Lightning. No loop occurs, because once the active
player resolves his or her end-of-turn effects, that player can't
play more of them after the other player starts resolving theirs. If
the active player controls Ball Lightning, it will end up in play.
Why? The active player plays and resolves his or her end-of-turn
effects first, so Ball Lightning is buried. Then, when the nonactive
player resolves his or her end-of-turn effects, Lifeline's effect
puts the Ball Lightning back into play. The active player never gets
a chance to resolve more end-of-turn effects, so the Ball Lightning
doesn't get a chance to bury itself again.
If the nonactive player controls Ball Lightning while the active
player controls Lifeline, then Lifeline's effect resolves first, then
the Lightning buries itself, so the Ball Lightning ends up in its
owner's graveyard.
7) Outmaneuver causes blocked creatures to deal their combat damage
to the defending player regardless of whether creatures are still
blocking them when combat damage is dealt.
8) Serra Avatar is shuffled back into its owner's library when it
goes to its owner's graveyard, no matter where it came from. It
doesn't matter whether it's put into a graveyard from a library, from
play, from a player's hand, and so on. (If it loses its second
ability because of an effect such as Humble's, it won't be
reshuffled.)
Lifeline, on the other hand, works only when a creature goes to a
graveyard from play--that's why its rules text reads "creature" and
not "card".
9) Veiled Crocodile will "awaken" if your hand becomes empty even
momentarily, such as while playing or resolving a spell. You don't
play the triggered ability that turns the Crocodile into a creature,
however, until the end of the current event.
10) Worship doesn't prevent damage--it just changes what happens at
the time damage would normally be subtracted from your life total.
Abilities that trigger on damage (Abyssal Specter's, Somnophore's,
and so on) are unaffected, because they will have already triggered.
This ruling also applies to Ali from Cairo and Sustaining Spirit.
###
David DeLaney
(R)
Official Magic: The Gathering Rules Usenet Network Representative for
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
--
\/David DeLaney d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://panacea.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ/ I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
questions which didn't make it into the Rulings posts. Sorry this has been
delayed so long - it was waiting for the October Rulings, which finally
appeared...
Specific
1) The X on Drain Life is an extra cost; you may still pay it while paying
the casting cost, 1B, via Dream Halls' ability. This is different from spells
with an X in their _casting_ cost.
2) Stangg or Stangg Twin tokens made in Volrath's Laboratory will have no
effect at all on Stangg cards or Stangg Twin tokens made by a Stangg. {Each
Stangg keeps track only of the Twin it made itself, and vice versa.}
3) Assembly Workers no longer have the creature type "Assembly Worker"; they
just have that as their name. The Factory ability looks for a permanent named
"Assembly Worker". [The comment "So there are currently _no_ lands that have
a creature type when animated." fell victim to another note - see the
Legendary things note below.]
4) Unstable Shapeshifter copies the creature that just came into play as its
base characteristics are when the "copy" triggered ability -resolves- ... not
as the creature first came into play. This usually makes no difference
whatsoever ... and remember that copy cards copy the _base_ characteristics,
so effects like Humility's or Crusade's don't affect what gets copied. But
there are some odd situations where it could make a difference. [Bethmo -
did you get an answer back about what happens if the creature vanishes before
US can actually copy it?]
5) If you have an Assembly Worker, an Orcish Conscripts, and an Exalted Dragon,
you may declare the group of three as attackers -and- pay the Dragon's
attack cost with the Assembly Worker. Similarly, if your Monstrous Hound
attacks together with your Leviathan, the Hound checks the number of lands
just before the Leviathan's attack cost is paid, not the number of lands
afterwards.
6) Fork no longer copies the effects of an interrupt on the spell; it won't
copy Sleight/Hack/Lace/Ersatz Gnomes changes. [I may have said this before,
but the answer came up again this round.]
7) Volrath's Shapeshifter will copy "*" or "X" power or toughness as 0 ...
but _will_ copy abilities that continuously set a value for either stat. So
a VS being a Maro will track the number of cards in your hand to set its
power and toughness the same way Maro does, for instance; its ability will
override the "0/0" stats it sees from the Maro on top of your graveyard.
8) Tahngarth's Rage vs. Ensnaring Bridge: The Bridge checks before the
creature is attacking, and the Rage gives the bonus only while/once the
creature _is_ attacking ... so the Bridge checks before the Rage bonus
appears on the creature.
9) It's fine to make "Elder Dragon Legend" tokens in Volrath's Lab. Yes,
there's a part of that creature type that's another Magic word ... but these
tokens will _not_ follow the "Legend" rules any more than "White Knight"
tokens would have to be white. So yes, you can make them, and no, you can't
dream up any rules-trickery to play using them so don't try.
10) Lich note: Lich does _not_ keep your life total at zero; if you take
damage while Liched, your life total goes down from zero. [It keeps you alive
when at or below 0 life just fine.] So if you Mirror Universe while Liched
... your life total "tries to" change from whatever number it's at, 0 _or_
negative, to opponent's total ... which means you will draw at least
your opponent's life total in cards, but may draw _much_ more than that if
you've taken a lot of damage while Liched. [And of course this may possibly
kill you by drawing out. Oh, the agony...]
11) All the sacrifices for Cataclysm take place at the same time, though
active player _chooses_ what to save before opponent does.
12) If a Word of Command is Forked ... where are you all running off to? If,
I say, this happens, then the Forked Word when it resolves has to choose
a spell in that player's hand which could start the next batch. At this time,
in this odd situation, that will be a batch of _interrupts_... so the Fork
can only choose an interrupt [which must target the Word of Command itself,
as that's what's currently being interrupted]. [I believe it can also choose
a land to play if it's currently the target player's main phase and they
could otherwise play a land. Even though there's no natural way to play a
land in the interrupt window. But Forked Words of Command are unnatural
enough to cause a spacetime inversion that turns that rulebook page inside
out...]
13) The actual artist on Censorship is Matt Wilson ... but "there's no artist
listed there" or "I can't tell you that" is also a legal answer for Squirrel
Farm.
14) Enough Memory Crystals can reduce the generic portion of a buyback cost all
the way to 0, even if the cost is an odd number to start with. [It won't be
left with "one last <1> that can't get reduced".]
15) The rules team wants B.F.M to work as if it were worded "You must put both
B.F.M. cards into play at the same time to put ~ into play.", instead of
"You must play both B.F.M. cards to put ~ into play.". Things that put both
cards into play at once will get it into play - Living Death, for instance.
Or phasing it in. Or Portcullis leaving play. [Eureka won't, because it
puts cards into play one after another.]
16) If you're using Unglued cards as tournament-legal even though they aren't
DCI-legal, you are allowed four left-half BFM cards and four right-half BFM
cards, not a total of four half-cards.
17) If a Giant Fan or Hungry Hungry Heifer removes a Gemstone Mine's last
counter, that triggers its sacrifice-me ability.
18) "No Rest for the Wicked: card reads, "Sacrifice No Rest for the Wicked:
Return to your hand all creature cards put into your graveyard from play this
turn. Read this as "Return _from your graveyard_ to your hand ..." for
ease of understanding."
19) 'Phyrexian Colossus: numbering reads, "306/350." Should be "305/350."'
20) Yes, you may replace Sylvan Library's card draws both with Abundance
reveal-cards-until-and-put-into-hands, and if done right this can leave
you with no cards in your hand drawn this turn to choose when SL tells you
to choose. And yes, if you do this correctly you don't have to put any cards
back and don't have to pay any life.
21) Karn,_Silver Golem [and Dromosaur and Goblin Cadets] trigger when they
block or _become_ blocked. So if Karn gets blocked by a creature, then gets
targetted by Choking Vines or Dazzling Beauty, he is already blocked ... and
won't become blocked _again_, so won't get the bonus twice. [Most cards that
get a bonus when blocked specify "by a creature" somehow, and these won't
trigger at all for either of those spells.]
22) Temporal Aperture loses track of which card is the "top card" whenever
your library is shuffled, the order of cards including the top card is
rearranged, or cards are taken from the top of your library [including
draws]. Even if there's only one card in your library. So "shuffling" one
card does cause the effect to end.
23) Umbilicus: if you choose not to pay, you choose the permanent to return
at that same time, on announcement of the upkeep cost. If that permanent isn't
in play when the cost resolves, Nothing Happens. If you _have_ no permanents
when you announce the cost [possible only if it's not your Umbilicus] then
you may still choose not to pay, and then simply cannot choose a permanent to
return at all.
24) Yawgmoth's Will's remove-from-game effect is a replacement effect, and
will interact normally with buyback's replacement effect: you can choose
the order of the two, so your buyback cards _can_ get put back in your hand if
you pay the buyback.
25) More Abundance: if you're drawing several cards at once, and replace more
than one of them with Abundance's ability, you deal with the reveal-until/put-
in-hand/put-on-bottom-of-library effects one at a time, one after another. So
the cards revealed for each Abundance use get put on the bottom of the library
separately, and do not "mix" among themselves. [Technically this also applies
to Aladdin's Lamp uses, if those are combined with Abundance or with
themselves.] Also, if drawing several cards at once, you choose
land-or-nonland for each separately ... and choose for -all- of the
replacements you make before drawing _any_ of the cards. So you can't decide
to go for a land, find the Swamp you needed, _then_ decide for the next of
the three to go for nonland, for instance.
26) If you use Mask of the Mimic, and target a creature that has been changed
from its original card [copy cards, shapeshifters, animated Phantasmal
Terrained lands, Fowl Played creatures, etc.], you get to search for a copy
of the original card, not for the creature it's currently being. So for a
Volrath's Shapeshifter you'd look for another VS, not for whatever it
currently is, and ditto for Clone; for an animated Forest that was Evil
Presenced, you'd look for a Forest, not a Swamp; etc.
27) Corrosion will destroy artifacts controlled by any player, as long as
they have enough rust counters on them. It only _places_ rust counters on
target opponent's artifacts, but it will zap your Moxen or Shield Sphere in
the process...
28) If Animate Dead is on a creature, and the creature ceases to be a
creature, then in this order: the Animate Dead will be buried because it's
no longer on a legal target, the AD's ability will trigger, and the
permanent it was on will be buried, even though it's not a creature any more.
[Example: if you Animate Dead a Licid, then turn the Licid into an
enchantment, the Animate Dead will fall off ... and this will bury the
Licid enchantment.] Ditto for Dance of the Dead and Necromancy. Not ditto
for Diabolic Servitude, as that never bothers to change into a creature
enchantment on the creature in question in the first place.
29) Lifeline doesn't care who controls the "another creature" - it just looks
to see if more than one creature is in play whenever one dies.
General
1) If you have to choose some subset of permanents to untap during the untap
phase's mass untap, rather than untapping everything, you can only choose
things to untap that -are- tapped. [Smoke/Winter Orb/Damping Field/Static
Orb/etc.] So, for instance, you can't choose an untapped land as one of your
two permanents to untap for Static Orb; you have to look at your tapped
permanents and choose two of them. [This is also why the storage lands can't
gain counters while untapped - you can't choose not to untap them unless they
_are_ tapped at the time.]
2) Copy cards do copy "counts as" text along with other text; a Clone of a
Wall of Spears will count as a Wall also.
3) If a spell gets its color changed several times, and makes a permanent,
the permanent will start off being the -latest- color the spell had. Also,
permanents made by spells come into play as the last color the spell had,
not necessarily the same as the original color of the spell, and will
trigger "comes into play" abilities based on that last color. [The permanent
comes into play with an effect affecting it that's changing its color from
its base color; the effect doesn't wait to apply until the permanent is
actually in play.]
4) " "Destroy all <foo>" generates a single event destroying all the foo that
exist at the time, not a bunch of one-foo events. Replacement effects can
change part of this mass destruction. If a new foo is somehow created during
this replacement, it won't be destroyed. (This follows the same meta-rule
someone asked about not long ago with the Llurgoyf: the things that are going
to be destroyed are recorded when the event is created, and no changes other
than actual replacement effects will change what's scheduled for destruction.)"
5) "This creature must block that creature" effects, like Crashing Boars',
cannot -also- force -other- creatures to block at the same time to make the
chosen creature a legal blocker. Defender can choose to have this happen,
of course ... but if the chosen creature can't block by itself, it can't
be _forced_ to block on its own. [Detailed posts about Crashing Boars, a
Lure, a Goblin War Drums, and some Orcish Conscripts on defender's side can
be found through dejanews - I'm not repeating that twisted mess of
explanation here... um, I mean to say "We have found a marvelous demonstration
of these qualities but unfortunately this newsgroup is too small to contain
it". Yeah, that's it.]
6) As the Mirage rulebook [!!] turns out to state, "legends" are any creatures
of creature type Legend, _and_ also any artifacts, lands, or enchantments
that are stated to be Legendary in the line under their picture. If a legend
is a creature, it's got creature type Legend. So Karn,_Silver Golem, is a
Legend, and can be bounced by Karakas or held down by Arena of the Ancients.
These two cards, however, are going to get "fixed" to affect _creature_
legends only - you still can't bounce Karakas with its own ability.
[Exception: they want to treat "Legendary" and "Legend" stuff exactly alike...
so if Karakas becomes a _creature_, it can now bounce itself, for instance.]
For another example, you may use Sword of the Chosen on Karn,_Silver Golem...
7) 'Yes, "is blocked by <foo>" or "becomes blocked by <foo>" will re-trigger if
the blockers are changed and the new blocker still satisfies <foo>. "Is
blocked" or "becomes blocked" with no "by" qualification won't retrigger.'
[Grew out of a question on Karn; applies to switching blockers with Sorrow's
Path, General Jarkeld, and the like.]
Other
1) Urza's Saga does not have a full rulebook. It has an insert in the
starter decks that explains the new abilities Cycling and Echo, explains
how the "sleeper" and 'growing' enchantments work, and gives a couple of
rules updates [for Trample, and for the default duration of effects of
spells or abilities]. You _will_ need a 5E [or 6E] rulebook to play.
2) The Unglued Rulings file, and the Unglued QAS ["Questions Asked Seldom"],
are now both available on various web pages, including, I believe, WotC's.
3) Urza's Saga cards that have the same name as previously-released cards
will be legal to use wherever the older ones were, the moment Urza's Saga is
released. So you may use Urza's Saga basic lands in your tournament deck
that day, if you want, rather than having to wait a month for US itself
to become tourney-legal. Bethmo's fairly sure that none of the reprinted
cards have any functional changes, the way Tempest's Power Sink changed
the wording, so that part of the question is probably moot. [But she's
checking on it.] The Trample change, and the other rules changes, are
official with the Rulings Post release done along with this post.
Dave
David DeLaney
Urza's Saga stuff]. These are explanations for the Rulings, examples, etc.;
they are not further Rulings or anything like that.
:1) If an effect doesn't specify its duration, it lasts "permanently."
:In other words, it lasts until another effect changes the situation.
This doesn't _change_ how cards that _do_ say "permanently" work - they still
last until overridden, also. We're just going back to having "permanently"
as the default, rather than no default at all. Apparently too many people
asked The FAQ On Jinxed Idol for cards that said "permanently"...
:2) Trample is no longer a damage-redirection ability.
This is fairly well straight off the Urza's Saga rules insert.
:* If the attacker is blocked by one creature, it first deals damage
: to the blocker.
Technically all this damage is assigned ["dealt"] at the same time. Think of
it, if you like, as putting all the damage somewhere, and then checking to
see if it was legal to put it all in the places you put it, much like
declaring attackers or blockers works; you have to put enough on all the
blockers to try to kill them all, in order to also put any on defending player.
:3) When an effect changes a permanent's type, the new type replaces
:all previous and current types. Reminder text stating a card still
:counts as a particular type, such as Stalking Stones's ("This
:creature still counts as a land."), is now considered rules text.
Yes, this is official: this is the first case I know of of reminder-text
changing to rules text, instead of vice-versa.
:If Transmogrifying Licid's effect is applied to a creature that also
:counts as a land, such as an animated forest, the forest counts as an
:artifact creature, but no longer counts as a land.
Subtle point 1: The Licid's effect only applies as long as the Licid is on
the creature. When the Licid falls off/the Thran Forge wears off/etc., the
permanent goes back to its old type.
Subtle point 2: Lands that have become artifact creatures through this Licid
are no longer lands ... so do +not+ tap for mana as a mana source any more.
Like Witch Engine or Carpet of Flowers, they give you mana as an instant as
long as they aren't lands.
:4) Any time a spell or ability checks anything about a permanent
:during resolution, it uses that permanent's current values. If the
:permanent has left play, the spell or ability uses the last values it
:had before leaving play. This rule applies both to the source and
:targets of a spell or ability as well as to any other permanents it
:may check.
This is a Big Big Big Reversal. Read it carefully a couple times. This
_reverses_, in essence, the "lock in all characteristics of the source
on announcement" rule. Changing how Tracker works, for instance.
Note #1 - _very_ important: this does _not_ allow Disenchant, Terror, Bolt,
etc., to become counterspells. If the source has left play, the ability still
resolves, but uses the last known values for the permanent. This is _very_
necessary to keep in mind ... because my gut feeling is that this rule change
will lead directly to such questions becoming FAQs all of a sudden.
Note #2: the way this works: when Tim taps, he creates a blue ability
that reads "Tim deals 1 damage to target creature or player". When this
ability resolves, it checks the characteristics of the target to find out
whether that's still a creature or player ... and it re-checks Tim to find
out what color and characteristics the _source of the damage_ has. If Tim
is green by then, the ability deals green damage; if Tim has Flying by then,
the damage is from a flying creature; etc. If Tim is _missing_ by then, the
ability uses the last-seen values Tim had to determine this stuff.
Note #3: Almost everything wants to look at the _source_ of the ability if
it's checking what characteristics the ability's damage, effects, have.
However, Protection-from looks to see what color [quality] the ability itself
is ... and that's still set when the ability is generated, and as far as I
know _doesn't_ change later. The ability may end up from a green source, but
it's still a blue ability if it started off on. [We're discussing portions of
this change still, as I note below.]
Note #4: Several netreps are pointing out possibly-Broken portions of this
change, yes. We'll deal with the questions as they come up. Feel free to ask
about them if you're confused...
:5) The way we refer to damage in the Magic game has changed. Damage
:is now "dealt" at the beginning of damage resolution and
:"successfully dealt" at the end of damage prevention.
I'm still going to use "assign" a lot when I mean "dealt", because there's
now nothing else "assign" refers to so it's unambiguous. Note that Spirit Link
and the like, which trigger off damage, even though they may say "dealt
damage" actually _mean_ "successfully dealt" damage in this terminology.
[Which is usually what we ended up saying while explaining it _anyway_...]
:6) When a card's text starts with, "At the time you play," the text
:following that phrase is an additional cost of playing the card. The
:additional cost must be paid when the card's casting cost is first paid.
This _replaces_ the "Cost: Effect" template on spells. The FAQ that came up
for that notation apparently grew to be Too Much To Handle.
:1) The rules changes to trample make it stronger in some situations
:and weaker in others. Here are some examples:
This is more of an explanation than anything else, not True Rulings.
:* A creature with trample can now deal damage to the defending player
: even if blocked by a creature with protection from its color.
If, of course, it will deal enough damage to get past the blocker's toughness.
:Also note that "lethal damage" means "damage equal to its
:toughness"--it has nothing to do with any abilities that may reduce
:damage or prevent the creature from being destroyed.
If the creature has already got damage on it, the _total_ damage, dealt plus
successfully dealt, is compared, not just what's currently being dealt.
For example, a 5/5 blocker with 3 damage on it already only needs to be dealt
2 damage to be lethally damaged; a 3/3 Trampling attacker blocked by it may
choose to deal 2 to it and 1 to defender, rather than being forced to deal
all 3 to it "because 3 is less than 5".
:2) Effects that modify the amount of damage dealt, such as Urza's
:Armor and Furnace of Rath, are replacement abilities--they replace
:the amount of damage that would normally be dealt with some other
:amount. If two or more such abilities are in effect, apply their
:modifications in the following order: effects the active player
:controls, in the order that player chooses, then effects the
:nonactive player controls, in the order that player chooses (sometimes
:called "APNAP," which stands for "active player, nonactive player").
...This explanation, while telling us how they want it handled, doesn't
really use good -terms-. The effects are apparently a cross _between_
continuous and replacement; they are using the continuous-ability "timing"
structure. Think of them as "continuous replacement" abilities if you like.
They are _not_ played in a series at all, despite using the APNAP notation
- they are applied all at once, right after deciding where the damage will
be assigned.
:3) Echo is an upkeep cost. While Humility is in play, the cost is
:removed. If you gain and lose control of a creature with echo
:multiple times in one turn, you still pay its casting cost only once
:during your next upkeep. If a creature with echo phases out, you must
:pay the echo cost again during the upkeep after it phases back in
:(because phased-out creatures aren't controlled by anyone).
Treat it very much like "During your upkeep, if <this permanent> has come
under your control since your last upkeep, pay its casting cost or sacrifice
it." If it comes under your control at end of upkeep, you have to pay next
upkeep. It "sees" things that phase in because they _do_ come into play ...
they just don't, by special rule for phasing-in, do anything about it right
_then_.
:1) Curfew should read, "Each player who controls a creature chooses
:one of them and returns it to owner's hand."
:2) Exhume should read, "Each player with a creature card in his or her
:graveyard chooses one of them and puts that creature into play."
So either of these can be cast regardless of who controls creatures or
who has creature cards in their graveyard.
:3) Karn, Silver Golem's second ability should read, "[ . . . ] power
:and toughness each equal to its total casting cost until end of turn."
[Having a power of 2RR doesn't make much sense, in other words.]
:6) Remembrance should read, "[ . . . ] you may search your library
:for a copy of that card."
So if a creature that's a Land card or Artifact card or Enchantment card
dies, you may search for a copy of that card.
:1) While Arcane Laboratory is in play, you can't play a buyback spell
:twice in one turn. It doesn't matter whether it's the same spell card
:or not.
[Techincally it's a different _spell_ when it comes back to your hand, anyway,
even if it's still the same -card-.]
:3) Ill-Gotten Gains enables you to choose from all the cards in your
:graveyard, including those you just discarded.
Thus, it does not and -cannot- target those cards. So you can't cause someone
to "lose" some of their choices by removing cards from their graveyard i
response to the spell, as long as they have at least three when they finally
choose. And the choice is made on resolution, _after_ the "then". {I guess
this falls under Hidden Information, because the spell -specifically- states
that you won't know what's in your graveyard to choose from until then...}
:4) If a card was a creature when it was put into its owner's
:graveyard, it can be returned by Lifeline's effect, regardless of
:whether the card is a creature card.
Similarly, if a card that isn't currently a creature goes to your graveyard,
Lifeline can't possibly bring it back.
:6) Lifeline and Ball Lightning interact in a very messy way. Here's
:how. (All the situations below assume that Ball Lightning's
:controller also controls another creature.)
One note:
:Under the rules for resolving endless loops, both players
:pick a number, and the process repeats that many times and then stops
:(even if this leaves the game in an "impossible" position).
If the same player controls both, _that_ player is the only one who needs to
pick a number - opponent doesn't get any input in that case. And if different
players control them, there's no loop in this case. [For a case where both
players get to pick a number, think of AEther Flash/Lifeline where the
enchantment and the artifact are controlled by different players...]
Dave
Maarten van Beek
> :during resolution, it uses that permanent's current values. If the
> :permanent has left play, the spell or ability uses the last values it
> :had before leaving play. This rule applies both to the source and
> :targets of a spell or ability as well as to any other permanents it
> :may check.
So this means that I could now bury my Dreadnought before playing
Panda's ability, and still get to deal 12 damage, right?
> :2) Effects that modify the amount of damage dealt, such as Urza's
> :Armor and Furnace of Rath, are replacement abilities--they replace
> :the amount of damage that would normally be dealt with some other
> :amount. If two or more such abilities are in effect, apply their
> :modifications in the following order: effects the active player
> :controls, in the order that player chooses, then effects the
> :nonactive player controls, in the order that player chooses (sometimes
> :called "APNAP," which stands for "active player, nonactive player").
>
> ...This explanation, while telling us how they want it handled, doesn't
> really use good -terms-. The effects are apparently a cross _between_
> continuous and replacement; they are using the continuous-ability "timing"
> structure. Think of them as "continuous replacement" abilities if you like.
> They are _not_ played in a series at all, despite using the APNAP notation
> - they are applied all at once, right after deciding where the damage will
> be assigned.
So what happens then if you have several in play? Say I have an Urza's
Armor and a Furnace of Rath in play? Some effect deals (i.e. assigns) 3
damage to me. If I understand this correctly, I can choose between being
dealt (3-1) X 2 = 4 damage or being dealt (3 x 2) -1 = 5 damage, right?
Maarten van Beek
mailto:ques...@blacklotus.demon.nl
Ingo Warnke
: > :4) Any time a spell or ability checks anything about a permanent
: > :during resolution, it uses that permanent's current values. If the
: > :permanent has left play, the spell or ability uses the last values it
: > :had before leaving play. This rule applies both to the source and
: > :targets of a spell or ability as well as to any other permanents it
: > :may check.
: So this means that I could now bury my Dreadnought before playing
: Panda's ability, and still get to deal 12 damage, right?
Yes.
: > :Armor and Furnace of Rath, are replacement abilities--they replace
: > :the amount of damage that would normally be dealt with some other
: > :amount. If two or more such abilities are in effect, apply their
: > :modifications in the following order: effects the active player
: > :controls, in the order that player chooses, then effects the
: > :nonactive player controls, in the order that player chooses (sometimes
: > :called "APNAP," which stands for "active player, nonactive player").
: >
: So what happens then if you have several in play? Say I have an Urza's
: Armor and a Furnace of Rath in play? Some effect deals (i.e. assigns) 3
: damage to me. If I understand this correctly, I can choose between being
: dealt (3-1) X 2 = 4 damage or being dealt (3 x 2) -1 = 5 damage, right?
That's how I understand it myself.
Ingo Warnke
Ingo Warnke
: From: "Beth Moursund" <Scryb...@classic.msn.com>
: Subject: FOR RELEASE: Urza rulings without the darn non-ASCII punctuation
ROFL
: 2) Trample is no longer a damage-redirection ability.
: * If the attacker is blocked by one creature, it first deals damage
: to the blocker. If it deals lethal damage to that creature, any
: remaining damage may be divided as its controller chooses between the
**************
This should have been changed to reflect banding.
Ingo Warnke
Ingo Warnke
: :3) When an effect changes a permanent's type, the new type replaces
: :counts as a particular type, such as Stalking Stones's ("This
: :creature still counts as a land."), is now considered rules text.
: Subtle point 2: Lands that have become artifact creatures through this Licid
: are no longer lands ... so do +not+ tap for mana as a mana source any more.
: Like Witch Engine or Carpet of Flowers, they give you mana as an instant as
: long as they aren't lands.
I'm not sure how this ruling interacts with the dual lands. Oracle makes
the mana tap ability a kind of reminder text for those lands. If they
are animated and affected by the Transmogrifying Licid, can they be
tapped for mana at all?
: :4) Any time a spell or ability checks anything about a permanent
: :during resolution, it uses that permanent's current values. If the
: :permanent has left play, the spell or ability uses the last values it
: :had before leaving play. This rule applies both to the source and
: :targets of a spell or ability as well as to any other permanents it
: :may check.
: This is a Big Big Big Reversal. Read it carefully a couple times. This
: _reverses_, in essence, the "lock in all characteristics of the source
: on announcement" rule. Changing how Tracker works, for instance.
This reversal does *not* reverse targeting rules and the rule 'If all targeted
parts of a spell fizzle, the untargeted parts don't happen'. If you cast Divine
Offering on opponent's Alladin's Lamp and opponent responds by sacrificing
the Lamp to his Atog, the Divine Offering fizzles just as it did before and
does *not* give life.
: Note #3: Almost everything wants to look at the _source_ of the ability if
: it's checking what characteristics the ability's damage, effects, have.
: However, Protection-from looks to see what color [quality] the ability itself
: is ... and that's still set when the ability is generated, and as far as I
: know _doesn't_ change later. The ability may end up from a green source, but
: it's still a blue ability if it started off on. [We're discussing portions of
: this change still, as I note below.]
On what do you base this difference?
: :1) Curfew should read, "Each player who controls a creature chooses
: :one of them and returns it to owner's hand."
: :2) Exhume should read, "Each player with a creature card in his or her
: :graveyard chooses one of them and puts that creature into play."
: So either of these can be cast regardless of who controls creatures or
: who has creature cards in their graveyard.
The choices are still made at announcement.
: :3) Ill-Gotten Gains enables you to choose from all the cards in your
: :graveyard, including those you just discarded.
: Thus, it does not and -cannot- target those cards. So you can't cause someone
: to "lose" some of their choices by removing cards from their graveyard i
: response to the spell, as long as they have at least three when they finally
: choose. And the choice is made on resolution, _after_ the "then". {I guess
: this falls under Hidden Information, because the spell -specifically- states
: that you won't know what's in your graveyard to choose from until then...}
While Curfew and Exhume were errataed, Ill-Gotten Gains just got a ruling that
contradicts the rules. I don't understand that. The problem was known and
handled one way for Curfew/Exhume. Why was another road taken for Ill-Gotten
Gains? It has exactly the same problems as Curfew/Exhume. The same rules
that make the choices for Curfew/Exhume required at announcement make the
choices for Ill-Gotten Gains required at announcement.
The cards in the graveyard are not 'hidden information' by the current
definition. They sould be, as I tried to explain several times. But again
the Rules Team has decided to handle cards individually instead of revising
the rules.
Ingo Warnke
Ingo Warnke
: 24) Yawgmoth's Will's remove-from-game effect is a replacement effect, and
: will interact normally with buyback's replacement effect: you can choose
: the order of the two, so your buyback cards _can_ get put back in your hand if
: you pay the buyback.
Just to understand: If Yagmoth's Will affected cards going to any player's
graveyard, any buyback spell played by the inactive player would be
automatically RFG'ed, right?
Ingo Warnke
Ingo Warnke
: In article <70eetr$k3b$1...@gaia.ns.utk.edu>, d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu
: says...
: > :If Transmogrifying Licid's effect is applied to a creature that also
: > :artifact creature, but no longer counts as a land.
: > Subtle point 2: Lands that have become artifact creatures through this Licid
: > are no longer lands ... so do +not+ tap for mana as a mana source any more.
: > Like Witch Engine or Carpet of Flowers, they give you mana as an instant as
: > long as they aren't lands.
: Why?
Because only to *lands* applies the rule 'if it makes mana, it does so
at mana source speed'. If the card is no longer a land, this rules does not
apply.
: Unless they do something other than generate mana, they should still
: be mana sources. Painlands, for example, would operate at instant speed.
This was AFAIK only an 'intermediate' rule.
Ingo Warnke
Ingo Kemper
wrote:
>4) Any time a spell or ability checks anything about a permanent
>during resolution, it uses that permanent's current values. If the
>permanent has left play, the spell or ability uses the last values it
>had before leaving play. This rule applies both to the source and
>targets of a spell or ability as well as to any other permanents it
>may check.
Does that mean that if I cast a Phyrexian Dreadnought, I can't choose
to have Pandemonium no damage by sacrificing the artifact creature
first, if I wanted to do that for some reason?
Ingo Kemper
--
__ _ __ __ __ __
__/ /_/ \/ /_/____/_ |___Sky...@uni-muenster.de___---===> \
/_/ /_/\_/ |__/ |__/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ---===>__/
Stuart Smith
>On 19 Oct 1998 04:23:03 GMT, d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu (David DeLaney)
>wrote:
>
>>4) Any time a spell or ability checks anything about a permanent
>>during resolution, it uses that permanent's current values. If the
>>permanent has left play, the spell or ability uses the last values it
>>had before leaving play. This rule applies both to the source and
>>targets of a spell or ability as well as to any other permanents it
>>may check.
>
>Does that mean that if I cast a Phyrexian Dreadnought, I can't choose
>to have Pandemonium no damage by sacrificing the artifact creature
>first, if I wanted to do that for some reason?
Pandemonium says you _may_ do damage. However, if it said you _must_
do damage, then sacrificing the Dreadnought before dealing with Pandemonium
would no longer let you avoid doing 12 points of damage.
---
Stuart Smith
== Any opinions expressed are my own. You may share them for free. ==
Maarten van Beek
>
> On 19 Oct 1998 04:23:03 GMT, d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu (David DeLaney)
> wrote:
>
> >during resolution, it uses that permanent's current values. If the
> >permanent has left play, the spell or ability uses the last values it
> >had before leaving play. This rule applies both to the source and
> >targets of a spell or ability as well as to any other permanents it
> >may check.
>
> to have Pandemonium no damage by sacrificing the artifact creature
Ah, I get to say it! RTFC!!! Pandemonium damage is optional to begin
with...
But I get what you mean, and I think the answer is: no. You can't make
Panda fizzle because it would not be able to find the Dreadnought. Even
with the Dreadnought gone, it will remember the last stats it had before
it left. So you _can_ sac the Dreadnought and then still deal damage....
Maarten van Beek
mailto:pande...@blacklotus.demon.nl
Morgan Lewis
>Here, _finally_, is the awaited October/Urza's Saga Rulings post.
>6) When a card's text starts with, "At the time you play," the text
>following that phrase is an additional cost of playing the card. The
>additional cost must be paid when the card's casting cost is first
>paid. For example, Raze reads, "At the time you play Raze, sacrifice
>a land." To play Raze, you must pay one red mana and sacrifice a land.
>
In other words, had Raze been printed under the old format, it would have read
"Sacrifice a land: destroy target land." A much needed clarification, and one
I'm glad to see. Removing the Cost: Effect should cut the "Can I do this more
than once?" questions; as soon as this gets put in a proper rulebook (it had
*better* be in the 6th ed rulebook!), it should hopefully cut the "Can I play
this without sac'ing a land?" questions.
>General Rulings
>
>1) The rules changes to trample make it stronger in some situations
>and weaker in others. Here are some examples:
>
>* A creature with trample can now deal damage to the defending player
> even if blocked by a creature with protection from its color.
>
I'd been confused about this one at first, then corrected. Nice to see
confirmation.
>2) Effects that modify the amount of damage dealt, such as Urza's
>Armor and Furnace of Rath, are replacement abilities--they replace
>the amount of damage that would normally be dealt with some other
>amount. If two or more such abilities are in effect, apply their
>modifications in the following order: effects the active player
>controls, in the order that player chooses, then effects the
>nonactive player controls, in the order that player chooses
>(sometimes called "APNAP," which stands for "active player, nonactive
>player").
>
>If a spell or ability enables you to divide damage among several
>creatures and/or players, divide the damage first, then apply effects
>that modify the amount of damage dealt. For example, if Furnace of
>Rath is in play when a trampling creature deals combat damage, you
>first divide the damage according to the trample rules, then the
>Furnace's effect doubles the amount dealt to each creature or player.
>
Fellows? Does this clarify everybody's questions about Urza's Armor/Furnace
of Rath/Sulfuric Vapors?
>Errata
>
>1) Curfew should read, "Each player who controls a creature chooses
>one of them and returns it to owner's hand."
>
>2) Exhume should read, "Each player with a creature card in his or her
>graveyard chooses one of them and puts that creature into play."
>
Do these significantly alter the cards, or are they just clarifying what
happens? It appears to be the second, but I might be missing something.
>4) Lifeline should read, "Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard
>and another creature is in play, put that creature back into play
>under its owner's control at end of turn." In other words, its effect
>works for all players.
>
Finally, clear, functional wording for Lifeline.
>6) Remembrance should read, "[ . . . ] you may search your library
>for a copy of that card."
>
Meaning the creature need not be a creature card, so this now works for
sleepers, animated Factories, etc.
>7) Serra Avatar's second ability should read, "Whenever Serra Avatar
>is put into a graveyard from anywhere, instead shuffle Serra Avatar
>into owner's library." The "from anywhere" part means this ability
>works when the Avatar is put into a graveyard from any
>zone--someone's hand or library, limbo, and so on.
>
Another needed clarification.
>8) Wall of Junk should include, "Wall of Junk counts as a Wall.
>(Walls cannot attack.)"
>
And a minor nuisance cleared up.
>Specific Card Rulings
>
>5) If several creatures and Lifeline are all in play, and all the
>creatures go to their owners' graveyards at the same time (because of
>Wrath of God, for instance), Lifeline's effect will put all of them
>back into play at end of turn.
>
An interesting consequence, but I'm glad to see a ruling.
>6) Lifeline and Ball Lightning interact in a very messy way. Here's
>how. (All the situations below assume that Ball Lightning's
>controller also controls another creature.)
>[snip scenarios]
Yeesh. That was messier than I'd thought.
Morgan
Morgan Lewis
>:3) When an effect changes a permanent's type, the new type replaces
>:all previous and current types. Reminder text stating a card still
>:counts as a particular type, such as Stalking Stones's ("This
>:creature still counts as a land."), is now considered rules text.
>
>Yes, this is official: this is the first case I know of of reminder-text
>changing to rules text, instead of vice-versa.
>
>:If Transmogrifying Licid's effect is applied to a creature that also
>:counts as a land, such as an animated forest, the forest counts as an
>:artifact creature, but no longer counts as a land.
>
>Subtle point 1: The Licid's effect only applies as long as the Licid is on
> the creature. When the Licid falls off/the Thran Forge wears off/etc., the
> permanent goes back to its old type.
>Subtle point 2: Lands that have become artifact creatures through this Licid
> are no longer lands ... so do +not+ tap for mana as a mana source any more.
> Like Witch Engine or Carpet of Flowers, they give you mana as an instant as
> long as they aren't lands.
>
Rules pertaining to sources of mana (not to be confused with Mana Sources) are
getting more and more odd-sounding all the time. It makes perfect sense, but
sheesh....does anybody besides me think it would be much easier if they simply
ruled all mana-giving abilities to be played as Mana Sources? When tapping an
animated, Transmogrified forest for mana is an ability that can be
Interdicted, then Things Are Getting Screwy. (One could argue that having a
Transmogrified animated forest is, in and of itself, Screwy, but you know what
I mean.)
>:3) Karn, Silver Golem's second ability should read, "[ . . . ] power
>:and toughness each equal to its total casting cost until end of turn."
>
>[Having a power of 2RR doesn't make much sense, in other words.]
>
Not that a noncreature artifact should ever have a casting cost different from
its total casting cost *anyways*, as far as I can tell.
Morgan
Morgan Lewis
>David DeLaney (d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu) wrote:
>: :3) When an effect changes a permanent's type, the new type replaces
>: :counts as a particular type, such as Stalking Stones's ("This
>: :creature still counts as a land."), is now considered rules text.
>
>: are no longer lands ... so do +not+ tap for mana as a mana source any more.
>: Like Witch Engine or Carpet of Flowers, they give you mana as an instant as
>: long as they aren't lands.
>
>the mana tap ability a kind of reminder text for those lands. If they
>are animated and affected by the Transmogrifying Licid, can they be
>tapped for mana at all?
Hmm....a Bayou, for example, will still count as a Forest and as a Swamp. As
I understand it, anything that counts as those have the appropriate
mana-producing ability. Unsure whether this still holds true for when the
"thing" is a creature but not a land. I *suspect* it holds true, but I'm not
sure.
Morgan
Morgan Lewis
>In article <362b4...@news.uni-rostock.de>, nfa...@cks1.rz.uni-
>rostock.de says...
>> Dave Romerstein (romers...@elsva.com) wrote:
>> : In article <70eetr$k3b$1...@gaia.ns.utk.edu>, d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu
>> : says...
>> : > :artifact creature, but no longer counts as a land.
>>
> Licid
>> : > are no longer lands ... so do +not+ tap for mana as a mana source any
> more.
>> : > Like Witch Engine or Carpet of Flowers, they give you mana as an instant
> as
>> : > long as they aren't lands.
>>
>>
>> Because only to *lands* applies the rule 'if it makes mana, it does so
>> apply.
>
>So Llanowar Elves now make mana at instant speed? Sol Rings?
>
No, because they specifically say (via text or errata) "Play as a mana
source."
>> : Unless they do something other than generate mana, they should still
>> : be mana sources. Painlands, for example, would operate at instant speed.
>>
>> This was AFAIK only an 'intermediate' rule.
>
>Unless the argument is that since the lands won't specifically *say*
>"Play this as a mana source", I see nothing that would prevent them from
>continuing to operate at mana source speed unless the do something other
>than make mana.
>
I believe that *is* the argument--that since they don't say "Play as a mana
source" and are no longer lands, that it is not a Mana Source ability. Note:
I don't like this situation either.
Morgan
Kyle Nishioka
: nfa...@cks1.rz.uni-rostock.de (Ingo Warnke) wrote:
: >David DeLaney (d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu) wrote:
: >: :counts as a particular type, such as Stalking Stones's ("This
: >: :creature still counts as a land."), is now considered rules text.
: >: Subtle point 2: Lands that have become artifact creatures through this Licid
: >: are no longer lands ... so do +not+ tap for mana as a mana source any more.
: >: Like Witch Engine or Carpet of Flowers, they give you mana as an instant as
: >: long as they aren't lands.
: >
: >the mana tap ability a kind of reminder text for those lands. If they
: >are animated and affected by the Transmogrifying Licid, can they be
: >tapped for mana at all?
: >Ingo Warnke
: Hmm....a Bayou, for example, will still count as a Forest and as a Swamp. As
: I understand it, anything that counts as those have the appropriate
: mana-producing ability. Unsure whether this still holds true for when the
: "thing" is a creature but not a land. I *suspect* it holds true, but I'm not
: sure.
Well, the rule says that *lands'* mana generating abilities are mana
sources. But, from what I gather, it is the *land type* that determines
whether or not a card has the ability. So, the card should have the
mana generating ability, but the ability will be an instant unless WotC
issues another ruling. The real problem is how can a card have a land
type but not be a land. I'm not sure if land-ness and landtype are
completely independent of one another. IOW, does assigning a landtype
automatically make it a land?
--
Kyle
nk...@hawaii.edu
#include <std_disclaimer.h>
#include <blue_ribbon>
Brian Trosko
: >following that phrase is an additional cost of playing the card. The
: >paid. For example, Raze reads, "At the time you play Raze, sacrifice
: >a land." To play Raze, you must pay one red mana and sacrifice a land.
: In other words, had Raze been printed under the old format, it would have read
: "Sacrifice a land: destroy target land." A much needed clarification, and one
: I'm glad to see. Removing the Cost: Effect should cut the "Can I do this more
: than once?" questions; as soon as this gets put in a proper rulebook (it had
: *better* be in the 6th ed rulebook!), it should hopefully cut the "Can I play
: this without sac'ing a land?" questions.
Arrrrgh. No! Cost:Effect worked just fine, and people who were confused
about being able to pay multiple times should have been referred to the
bit in the rulebook which says you can't pump things like that. Now there
will be many more questions about just *what* is a cost and what isn't.
: Fellows? Does this clarify everybody's questions about Urza's Armor/Furnace
: of Rath/Sulfuric Vapors?
No. If Sulfuric Vapors is in play and I Arc Lightning 3 creatures for 1
point each, what happens?
: And a minor nuisance cleared up.
Although I think the irony of WoTC putting "walls cannot attack" on *every
friggin' wall*, even in an "Expert" level set, and then forgetting to put
"Counts as a wall" on a card is delicious.
David DeLaney
>: 2) Trample is no longer a damage-redirection ability.
>: * If the attacker is blocked by one creature, it first deals damage
>: remaining damage may be divided as its controller chooses between the
>This should have been changed to reflect banding.
The Urza's Saga sheet says "its controller" once or twice, and "the person
distributing the damage" once or twice. Other answers from bethmo have
confirmed that yes, banding on a blocker does let defender assign where the
Trample damage goes.
Dave
David DeLaney
>On 19 Oct 1998 04:23:03 GMT, d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu (David DeLaney)
>wrote:
>>during resolution, it uses that permanent's current values. If the
>>permanent has left play, the spell or ability uses the last values it
>>had before leaving play. This rule applies both to the source and
>>targets of a spell or ability as well as to any other permanents it
>>may check.
>
>to have Pandemonium no damage by sacrificing the artifact creature
Yes, this would be one consequence of that ruling. [Thought of it myself
about twelve hours ago, after the last time I was on the newsgroup.]
However, note that Pandemonium says "you may" ... so you can _always_ just
choose not to do it, and deal 0 damage that way...
Dave
David DeLaney
>d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu (David DeLaney) wrote:
>>6) When a card's text starts with, "At the time you play," the text
>>following that phrase is an additional cost of playing the card. The
>>additional cost must be paid when the card's casting cost is first
>>paid. For example, Raze reads, "At the time you play Raze, sacrifice
>>a land." To play Raze, you must pay one red mana and sacrifice a land.
>
>"Sacrifice a land: destroy target land." A much needed clarification, and one
>I'm glad to see.
Yep. Me too, actually. [Reading the card originally, it looked the other
way around - I knew it wasn't _triggered_, simply because anything triggered
in US starts with the word "When" or "Whenever". I didn't know what it was,
but surely it couldn't be a cost, since it was out of template? Well, surprise:
new template...]
>Removing the Cost: Effect should cut the "Can I do this more
>than once?" questions; as soon as this gets put in a proper rulebook (it had
>*better* be in the 6th ed rulebook!), it should hopefully cut the "Can I play
>this without sac'ing a land?" questions.
I believe, though I don't know, that that FAQ's [surprising] multiplication
woudl be a large part of the reason why they changed this template.
>>If a spell or ability enables you to divide damage among several
>>creatures and/or players, divide the damage first, then apply effects
>>that modify the amount of damage dealt. For example, if Furnace of
>>Rath is in play when a trampling creature deals combat damage, you
>>first divide the damage according to the trample rules, then the
>>Furnace's effect doubles the amount dealt to each creature or player.
>
>Fellows? Does this clarify everybody's questions about Urza's Armor/Furnace
>of Rath/Sulfuric Vapors?
Should. Play them as you would replacement abilities, before the damage
actually gets assigned. [And not, as I wrote in my Commentary, as
"continuous replacement abilities" - I still had the first version of the
Rulings stuck in my head when I read the final for-release version. Bad Dave.]
>>1) Curfew should read, "Each player who controls a creature chooses
>>one of them and returns it to owner's hand."
>>
>>2) Exhume should read, "Each player with a creature card in his or her
>>graveyard chooses one of them and puts that creature into play."
>
>Do these significantly alter the cards, or are they just clarifying what
>happens? It appears to be the second, but I might be missing something.
As worded, you couldn't cast the spell if one player had no creature/no
creature card in the graveyard. Because there were choices requierd that
at least one player simply couldn't make. With the rewording, only the
players who _can_ choose get to choose, so there's no problem there.
>>6) Remembrance should read, "[ . . . ] you may search your library
>>for a copy of that card."
>
>Meaning the creature need not be a creature card, so this now works for
>sleepers, animated Factories, etc.
Yep. Anything that's a creature at the time.
Dave
David DeLaney
>Here's my usual Analysis & Comments for the Rulings Post just issued [10/18/98,
>Urza's Saga stuff]. These are explanations for the Rulings, examples, etc.;
>they are not further Rulings or anything like that.
>
>:controls, in the order that player chooses, then effects the
>:nonactive player controls, in the order that player chooses (sometimes
>:called "APNAP," which stands for "active player, nonactive player").
>
>...This explanation, while telling us how they want it handled, doesn't
>really use good -terms-.
Sorry, Bad Dave. I still had the first version I saw of this Ruling in my
mind when I looked at the final version, and didn't notice the Change that
happened. Treat the paragraph I wrote as actually saying
"This explanation is telling you [as I missed the first time I read it,
due to having the beta-test version in my head still] that the replacement
abilities are going in a series before the actual damage assignment, as
replacement abilities usually do, and that the series is using its usual
timing - APNAP. Doesn't matter what order the enchantments came into play/
spells were cast/etc. _Don't_, as I said earlier, think of them as
"continuous replacement abilities" - that was Dave's brain going temporarily
off..."
>If the same player controls both, _that_ player is the only one who needs to
>pick a number - opponent doesn't get any input in that case. And if different
>players control them, there's no loop in this case. [For a case where both
>players get to pick a number, think of AEther Flash/Lifeline where the
>enchantment and the artifact are controlled by different players...]
And after a little intense looking, it turns out my initial impression here
was wrong. I'd been under the above impression ... but it turns out that
for loops _not_ under the players' control [a), loops done entirely by the
game rules, and b) loops entirely composed of _mandatory_ effects] the
"both players pick a number, use the larger number" is what happens - Ball
Lightning/Lifeline, for instance. If [only] one player has some input into the
loop and nobody else does [making a Mesa Pegasus token, saccing an Ornithopter
to Ashnod's Altar, choosing what to sacrfice for Tainted AEther, etc.], then
that player picks the number of times the loop happens. But many Lifeline
loops don't have this option.
David DeLaney
>> :4) Any time a spell or ability checks anything about a permanent
>> :during resolution, it uses that permanent's current values. If the
>> :permanent has left play, the spell or ability uses the last values it
>> :had before leaving play. This rule applies both to the source and
>> :targets of a spell or ability as well as to any other permanents it
>> :may check.
>
>Panda's ability, and still get to deal 12 damage, right?
Yep. Or 0, if you want.
>> :2) Effects that modify the amount of damage dealt, such as Urza's
>> :Armor and Furnace of Rath, are replacement abilities--they replace
>> :the amount of damage that would normally be dealt with some other
>> :amount. If two or more such abilities are in effect, apply their
>> :modifications in the following order: effects the active player
>> :controls, in the order that player chooses, then effects the
>> :nonactive player controls, in the order that player chooses (sometimes
>> :called "APNAP," which stands for "active player, nonactive player").
>
>So what happens then if you have several in play? Say I have an Urza's
>Armor and a Furnace of Rath in play? Some effect deals (i.e. assigns) 3
>damage to me. If I understand this correctly, I can choose between being
>dealt (3-1) X 2 = 4 damage or being dealt (3 x 2) -1 = 5 damage, right?
You play them in series, as the above -said- but I didn't see because I was
seeing an older version, and if you control both you decide their order, yes.
David DeLaney
>> Because only to *lands* applies the rule 'if it makes mana, it does so
>> at mana source speed'. If the card is no longer a land, this rules does not
>> apply.
>
>So Llanowar Elves now make mana at instant speed? Sol Rings?
Llanowar Elves and Sol Rings both _say_ [with Oracle] that their abilities
are mana sources. Lands' abilities that tap for mana do not have to.
>Unless the argument is that since the lands won't specifically *say*
>"Play this as a mana source", I see nothing that would prevent them from
>continuing to operate at mana source speed unless the do something other
>than make mana.
If they aren't lands any more, they don't get to use the 'default for lands'
rule. This was apparently an unintended consequence, but bethmo thinks it'll
be okay because it doesn't apply to very many ways of making the lands
creatures. [Most ways to do so _do_ have the "This still counts as a land"
reminder->rules text. Transmogrifying Licid specifically doesn't, but Living
Plane, Kormus Bell, etc., all do.]
David DeLaney
>
>its total casting cost *anyways*, as far as I can tell.
Not in the existing card set, no. There's nothing at all stopping them
from making colored-cost artifacts in the rules. It appears to be a design
constraint, instead.
Ingo Warnke
: I'm glad to see. Removing the Cost: Effect should cut the
: than once?" questions; as soon as this gets put in a proper rulebook (it had
: *better* be in the 6th ed rulebook!), it should hopefully cut the "Can I play
: this without sac'ing a land?" questions.
It also allows making permanents with a special cost paid at annoucenements.
: >2) Effects that modify the amount of damage dealt, such as Urza's
: >Armor and Furnace of Rath, are replacement abilities--they replace
: >the amount of damage that would normally be dealt with some other
: >amount. If two or more such abilities are in effect, apply their
: >modifications in the following order: effects the active player
: >controls, in the order that player chooses, then effects the
: >nonactive player controls, in the order that player chooses
: >(sometimes called "APNAP," which stands for "active player, nonactive
: >player").
: >
: Fellows? Does this clarify everybody's questions about Urza's Armor/Furnace
: of Rath/Sulfuric Vapors?
The problem seems to be that other cards change as well. Benevolent Unicorn
reads:
Whenever a spell assigns damage to a creature or player, that damage is
reduced by 1.
This is the same template as Urza's Armor (with 'deal' replaced by the older
'assign'), so I guess it also works now as a replacement ability. This would
mean if I Bolt my opponent while Justice and my Benevolent Unicorn/Urza's
Armor is out, I would only be dealt 2 damage by Justice. Previously the
Unicon prevented 1 damage only after Justice saw the 3 Bolt damage, so I
was dealt 3 damage by Justice. The same problem exists with the damage reducing
ability of Protection.
: >1) Curfew should read, "Each player who controls a creature chooses
: >one of them and returns it to owner's hand."
: >
: >2) Exhume should read, "Each player with a creature card in his or her
: >graveyard chooses one of them and puts that creature into play."
: >
: Do these significantly alter the cards, or are they just clarifying what
: happens? It appears to be the second, but I might be missing something.
One can now play those cards even if one player does not have a creature
in the graveyard/in play.
: >7) Serra Avatar's second ability should read, "Whenever Serra Avatar
: >is put into a graveyard from anywhere, instead shuffle Serra Avatar
: >into owner's library." The "from anywhere" part means this ability
: >works when the Avatar is put into a graveyard from any
: >zone--someone's hand or library, limbo, and so on.
: >
: Another needed clarification.
I don't know why the 'instead' is there. If it really is a played replacement
ability, it will not be applicable for discard costs and also no for most
discard effects, as the choice what to discard is usually not made until
the event to be replaced starts.
Ingo Warnke
Ingo Warnke
: : Fellows? Does this clarify everybody's questions about Urza's Armor/Furnace
: : of Rath/Sulfuric Vapors?
: No. If Sulfuric Vapors is in play and I Arc Lightning 3 creatures for 1
: point each, what happens?
You distribute 1 damae to each participent, which the Sulfuric Vapors change
to 2 dmaage to each participent.
Ingo Warnke
Ingo Warnke
: d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu (David DeLaney) writes:
: >Here's my usual Analysis & Comments for the Rulings Post just issued [10/18/98,
: >Urza's Saga stuff]. These are explanations for the Rulings, examples, etc.;
: >they are not further Rulings or anything like that.
: >
: >:controls, in the order that player chooses, then effects the
: >:nonactive player controls, in the order that player chooses (sometimes
: >:called "APNAP," which stands for "active player, nonactive player").
: "This explanation is telling you [as I missed the first time I read it,
: due to having the beta-test version in my head still] that the replacement
: abilities are going in a series before the actual damage assignment, as
: replacement abilities usually do, and that the series is using its usual
: timing - APNAP. Doesn't matter what order the enchantments came into play/
: spells were cast/etc. _Don't_, as I said earlier, think of them as
: "continuous replacement abilities" - that was Dave's brain going temporarily
: off..."
I'm not sure if this is what actually happens. I think the above is meant to
be continuous replacement effects, not something that is played.
For example, changing an event several times produces not one series for
replacement abilities, but actually several serieses with only 1 ability
played during each series.
If this would happen here, Furnace of Rath would apply each time and
double the damage unboundedly.
Ingo Warnke
Norbert Adam
> romers...@elsva.com (Dave Romerstein) writes:
> >So Llanowar Elves now make mana at instant speed? Sol Rings?
> Llanowar Elves and Sol Rings both _say_ [with Oracle] that their abilities
> are mana sources. Lands' abilities that tap for mana do not have to.
> ...
> If they aren't lands any more, they don't get to use the 'default for lands'
> rule.
To sum it up: In a few rare occasions you can counter a mana source? I _love_
exceptions to a rule!
--
Norbert
I want a full explanation of what's going on and a mirror.
_______________________________________
--- / \ ---
---- / mailto:n.a...@snafu.de \ -----
---- \ http://pages.vossnet.de/norbertadam / -----
--- \_______________________________________/ ---
Morgan Lewis
I don't think it does, and I don't think it needs to be a land to have a
landtype. In one of the rules-related posts (I forget which, since I
misplaced all but the actual rulings posts, but I believe it was the "Things
Bethmo's Said..."), it said that Legendary Lands (such as Karakas) that become
creatures have the creature type Legend. (Ex: Extinction will destroy them
if you choose "Legend"). **So it could be suspected that as unanimated lands
they have the creature type, but aren't creatures** (and so Extinction won't
destroy them then because it specifically kills creatures.) So if a land that
isn't a creature can have a creature type, it can be surmised that a creature
which isn't a land can have a land type. That surmising, of course, depends
on whether or not the **/**'d supposition is correct or not.
Morgan
Jeff Heikkinen
wrote:
>
>To sum it up: In a few rare occasions you can counter a mana source?
Only literally :-). In the TransLicid/ Animated Land case, you can
counter something that produces mana, and could therefore be called a
"mana source" in an informal sense, but you can do this precicely
because it is *NOT* a Mana Source (note capitalization) in the sense
that the rules care about.
To put it another way, it's not a Mana Source, it's an Instant that
happens to produce mana.
David DeLaney
>: of Rath/Sulfuric Vapors?
>
>No. If Sulfuric Vapors is in play and I Arc Lightning 3 creatures for 1
>point each, what happens?
You deal 1 damage to each of them; this is damage from a red spell, so
Sulfuric Vapors replaces that with 2 damage to each of them.
[And no, you can't try to deal 0 damage to something with Arc Lightning and
have SV make it 1 instead; "distribute <these> any way you choose among any
number of target <whatevers>" means you have to put at least one of <these>
on each <whatever> you target.]
David DeLaney
>Morgan Lewis (m...@efn.org) wrote:
>The problem seems to be that other cards change as well. Benevolent Unicorn
>reads:
> Whenever a spell assigns damage to a creature or player, that damage is
> reduced by 1.
>This is the same template as Urza's Armor (with 'deal' replaced by the older
>'assign'), so I guess it also works now as a replacement ability.
Should, I believe.
>mean if I Bolt my opponent while Justice and my Benevolent Unicorn/Urza's
>Armor is out, I would only be dealt 2 damage by Justice.
Justice is triggered, so will see the damage only after all replacement
abilities, correct.
>The same problem exists with the damage reducing ability of Protection.
No, no. That happens later, at start of d-p step. After all the replacement
abilities have happened; Protection's reduce-to-zero will happen after
Sulfuric Vapors' add-1, always.
>: >7) Serra Avatar's second ability should read, "Whenever Serra Avatar
>: >is put into a graveyard from anywhere, instead shuffle Serra Avatar
>: >into owner's library." The "from anywhere" part means this ability
>: >works when the Avatar is put into a graveyard from any
>: >zone--someone's hand or library, limbo, and so on.
>
>I don't know why the 'instead' is there. If it really is a played replacement
>ability, it will not be applicable for discard costs and also no for most
>discard effects, as the choice what to discard is usually not made until
>the event to be replaced starts.
I don't either. It should be treated only as a triggered ability, thus
the "Whenever". Don't know how I overlooked this when reading over it. [Unless
it's that there were other things we were focussing on - ruling 4, for the
most part...] I'll let them know the "instead" needs to not be there.
David DeLaney
>David DeLaney wrote:
>> romers...@elsva.com (Dave Romerstein) writes:
>> >So Llanowar Elves now make mana at instant speed? Sol Rings?
>> Llanowar Elves and Sol Rings both _say_ [with Oracle] that their abilities
>> are mana sources. Lands' abilities that tap for mana do not have to.
>> ...
>> If they aren't lands any more, they don't get to use the 'default for lands'
>> rule.
>
>To sum it up: In a few rare occasions you can counter a mana source? I _love_
>exceptions to a rule!
Well, no. Sorry.
In a few rare occasions, something you expect to be a mana source ability
_isn't_ one, so you can counter it. [An ability that makes mana isn't
necessarily a "mana source ability"...]
David DeLaney
>nk...@Hawaii.Edu (Kyle Nishioka) wrote:
>>The real problem is how can a card have a land
>>type but not be a land. I'm not sure if land-ness and landtype are
>>completely independent of one another. IOW, does assigning a landtype
>>automatically make it a land?
Well: note that something that looks for forest cards in your deck can find
them ... where they aren't lands [only land cards]. So I'd say that something
that actually looked only for land _type_ wouldn't restrict itself to lands.
But note: a) pretty much everything that checks for "forests" checks in play
only, and b) there isn't any way right now to _make_ an Orc count also as
a Forest, for instance. The only things that change land types only change
lands' land types, in other words.
>**So it could be suspected that as unanimated lands
>they have the creature type, but aren't creatures** (and so Extinction won't
>destroy them then because it specifically kills creatures.)
Pretty much, yes. Arena of the Ancients and Karakas are gonna get "fixed"
to only affect _creature_ legends, because of this. An-Zerrin Ruins only
keeps creatures tapped, for about the only other affected card...
Stewart L. Potter
David DeLaney <d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu> wrote in article
<70h7ag$ato$1...@gaia.ns.utk.edu>...
: Maarten van Beek <webm...@blacklotus.demon.nl> writes:
: >> :4) Any time a spell or ability checks anything about a permanent
: >> :during resolution, it uses that permanent's current values. If the
: >> :permanent has left play, the spell or ability uses the last values it
: >> :had before leaving play. This rule applies both to the source and
: >> :targets of a spell or ability as well as to any other permanents it
: >> :may check.
: >
: >So this means that I could now bury my Dreadnought before playing
: >Panda's ability, and still get to deal 12 damage, right?
:
: Yep. Or 0, if you want.
:
A few weeks ago a question was asked about what would happen if an opponent
cast Living Death with Pandemonium in play. The question that in this
situation could the active player target the nonactive players creatures
with the Pandemonium effect and destroy them before the nonactive player
got the opportunity to deliver damage. The answer was that the NAP
creature's would deliver 0 damage since when the NAP got around to his
series effects, the Pandemonium would see these creature as dead.
With the above rules change I ask the question again.
With Pandemonium in play. My opponent (AP) cast Living Death, can he target
my creatures and destroy them without me having them deliver damage, too?
----
Stu
Maarten van Beek
>
> David DeLaney <d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu> wrote in article
> <70h7ag$ato$1...@gaia.ns.utk.edu>...
> : Maarten van Beek <webm...@blacklotus.demon.nl> writes:
> : >> :4) Any time a spell or ability checks anything about a permanent
> : >> :during resolution, it uses that permanent's current values. If the
> : >> :permanent has left play, the spell or ability uses the last values it
> : >> :had before leaving play. This rule applies both to the source and
> : >> :targets of a spell or ability as well as to any other permanents it
> : >> :may check.
> : >
> : >So this means that I could now bury my Dreadnought before playing
> : >Panda's ability, and still get to deal 12 damage, right?
> :
> : Yep. Or 0, if you want.
> :
>
> A few weeks ago a question was asked about what would happen if an opponent
> cast Living Death with Pandemonium in play. The question that in this
> situation could the active player target the nonactive players creatures
> with the Pandemonium effect and destroy them before the nonactive player
> got the opportunity to deliver damage. The answer was that the NAP
> creature's would deliver 0 damage since when the NAP got around to his
> series effects, the Pandemonium would see these creature as dead.
>
> With the above rules change I ask the question again.
And you should, since the answer is gonna be different...
> With Pandemonium in play. My opponent (AP) cast Living Death, can he target
> my creatures and destroy them without me having them deliver damage, too?
Nope. Now when its your turn to play Panda's triggered abilities, Panda
remembers your creatures scores from just before they left play. So you
now still get to deal damage.
Maarten van Beek
mailto:pand...@blacklotus.demon.nl
Ingo Warnke
: > Whenever a spell assigns damage to a creature or player, that damage is
: >This is the same template as Urza's Armor (with 'deal' replaced by the older
: >'assign'), so I guess it also works now as a replacement ability.
: >The same problem exists with the damage reducing ability of Protection.
: No, no. That happens later, at start of d-p step. After all the replacement
: abilities have happened; Protection's reduce-to-zero will happen after
: Sulfuric Vapors' add-1, always.
That's how it used to be and probably how they want it to work. But the
problem remains that it is not really obvious what dp-like abilities
are continuous replacements (like Urza's Armpor, Benelovent Unicorn) and
which are 'beginning of dp' abilitiess.
[about the Serra Avatar errata]
: most part...] I'll let them know the "instead" needs to not be there.
It's worse. It doesn't work as intended if it is a 'normal' replacment
ability (that means if it is played).
Ingo Warnke
Kyle Nishioka
: m...@efn.org (Morgan Lewis) writes:
: >nk...@Hawaii.Edu (Kyle Nishioka) wrote:
: >>The real problem is how can a card have a land
: >>type but not be a land. I'm not sure if land-ness and landtype are
: >>completely independent of one another. IOW, does assigning a landtype
: >>automatically make it a land?
: Well: note that something that looks for forest cards in your deck can find
: them ... where they aren't lands [only land cards].
I can see how the land type can exist outside of play, but I think land
attribute is still present. Otherwise how can you say that something is a
land card if it is not a land when it is in play? If land-ness is removed
it would just be a card.
Goola2u
>(Walls cannot attack.)"
Aw darn. :)
Goola2u
>_isn't_ one, so you can counter it. [An ability that makes mana isn't
>necessarily a "mana source ability"...]
>
So, by the same note, if there was a Mana Source spell that did direct damage,
it would be uncounterable? Not that WOTC would make a card like this or
anything, but it's possible in theory. To illustrate, here's a possibility:
Mana Bolt R
Mana Source
Deals 2 damage to target creature or player and one to you.
So this would be uncounterable?
Goola2u
>>
>>Not that a noncreature artifact should ever have a casting cost different
>from
>>its total casting cost *anyways*, as far as I can tell.
>
>Not in the existing card set, no. There's nothing at all stopping them
>from making colored-cost artifacts in the rules. It appears to be a design
>constraint, instead.
>
Sorta like direct-damage Mana Sources? :)
Ricardo Hinojosa
phantasmal terrain to be a swamp and Kormus Bell is in play making it a
creature ... If a transmo Licid is usen to turn it into an artifact creature
the phantasmal terrain will fall off because its no longer a land causing it
to revert into a non-creature non-land artifact forest for a moment before
the licid gets burried as an illegal target.
If a sleeper enchantment existed that read somthing like
"if ~ is an enchantment and a permanent is put into your graveyard from play
it becomes a 30/30 creature that counts as a legend
0: ~ becomes an enchantment"
And one was in play as a creature with a transmo licid enchanting it. If
its controler decided to revert it to enchantment form it would revert to a
non-enchantment straight artifact until the licid was in he graveyard which
would be too late for it to become a creature again?
I hope that was understandable ... I'm not sure I understant it myself.
Thanks,
Ricardo
Dan Johnson
Goola2u <goo...@aol.comREMOVE> wrote:
>So, by the same note, if there was a Mana Source spell that did direct damage,
>it would be uncounterable?
If it did direct damage, it wouldn't be a Mana Source spell.
Note that the rule about being unable to interrupt a mana source does not
actually care whether it is limited to producing mana. (For comparison,
Metamorphosis is a sorcery whose effect is only to produce mana; it has
always been vulnerable to Counterspell.)
--
Daniel W. Johnson
pano...@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
David DeLaney
Yeah, I said "fooey" too. The artwork -shows- it attacking Urza, after all.
But I guess 2 mana for a 0/7 creature with a serious drawback is 1 or 2 too
few...
David DeLaney
>>In a few rare occasions, something you expect to be a mana source ability
>>_isn't_ one, so you can counter it. [An ability that makes mana isn't
>>necessarily a "mana source ability"...]
>
>it would be uncounterable?
Yep. Mana Sources don't have an interrupt window at all [or a response
window]... and anything that triggers off any part of their lifecycle has
to wait until it's all done before you can play the series that triggered
thing goes in. So interrupts can't counter it, since they can't be played
at the right time, and triggered "counter all spells unless this happens"
stuff will have to wait until after the Mana Sourec has already resolved...
so won't be able to counter it either.
>Not that WOTC would make a card like this or
>anything, but it's possible in theory.
In theory, yes. I believe, however, it's quite probably a design restriction
that they examine _very closely_ anything that's going to be a Mana Source
+spell+...
>Mana Bolt R
>Mana Source
>Deals 2 damage to target creature or player and one to you.
>
>So this would be uncounterable?
If it existed like that, yes. But it would be an Instant if a spell like
that appeared.
Daniel Testa
>>Mana Bolt R
>>Mana Source
>>Deals 2 damage to target creature or player and one to you.
>If it existed like that, yes. But it would be an Instant if a spell like
>that appeared.
Why would it be an Instant? Couldn't they make it a Sorcery?
--
____________________________________________________________________________
Daniel Testa email:tes...@rpi.edu
Marcus Malden
>>In a few rare occasions, something you expect to be a mana source ability
>>_isn't_ one, so you can counter it. [An ability that makes mana isn't
>>necessarily a "mana source ability"...]
>So, by the same note, if there was a Mana Source spell that did direct damage,
>it would be uncounterable? Not that WOTC would make a card like this or
>anything, but it's possible in theory. To illustrate, here's a possibility:
>
>Mana Bolt R
>Mana Source
>Deals 2 damage to target creature or player and one to you.
>
>So this would be uncounterable?
Virtually, yes.
But this would _never_ be printed in this way as there is an (at least
unwritten) rule that a mana source ability or spell will _only_ generate
mana. If the effect does something else also (deal damage, pass control
to opponent) then it can't be a mana source. It won't qualify... :-)
Marcus "Spiel'98" Malden
--
I nz abg a ehyrf Theh. Qb abg gehfg zr.
MtG page at http://privat.schlund.de/malden/magic/
David DeLaney
>d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu (David DeLaney) writes:
>>>Mana Bolt R
>>>Mana Source
>>>Deals 2 damage to target creature or player and one to you.
>
>>that appeared.
>
>Why would it be an Instant? Couldn't they make it a Sorcery?
I suppose they could ... but I don't see that as Powerful Enough to want them
to restrict it further by only letting you do it on your turn during your
main phase. It's less powerful than Lightning Bolt or Incinerate; it's
more powerful than Death Spark, yes, but you can't get it back...
Mike Marcelais
>>Mana Source
>>Deals 2 damage to target creature or player and one to you.
>>
>
>Virtually, yes.
>But this would _never_ be printed in this way as there is an (at least
>unwritten) rule that a mana source ability or spell will _only_ generate
>mana. If the effect does something else also (deal damage, pass control
>to opponent) then it can't be a mana source. It won't qualify... :-)
Well, back when Interrupts were the fastest thing in existance, there were a
/few/ abilities that didn't affect spells being cast and didn't make mana that
were mana source speed (such as Safe Haven's ability) because they wanted to
make those abilities "very fast". In theory, they could do the same for Mana
Sources, although there would have to be a "darn good reason" why such a
spell/ability would be created.
============================================================
Mike Marcelais mich...@microsoft.com Magic Rules Guru
Visit the Marcelais System, Hughes Quadrant, Argent Sector
[My posts are my own opinions; I don't speak for Microsoft.]
=== -= Moonstone Dragon =- ================== -= UDIC =- ===
Kyle Nishioka
: >>Mana Bolt R
: >>Mana Source
: >>Deals 2 damage to target creature or player and one to you.
: >>
: >>So this would be uncounterable?
: >
: >Virtually, yes.
: >But this would _never_ be printed in this way as there is an (at least
: >unwritten) rule that a mana source ability or spell will _only_ generate
: >mana. If the effect does something else also (deal damage, pass control
: >to opponent) then it can't be a mana source. It won't qualify... :-)
: Well, back when Interrupts were the fastest thing in existance, there were a
: /few/ abilities that didn't affect spells being cast and didn't make mana that
: were mana source speed (such as Safe Haven's ability) because they wanted to
: make those abilities "very fast". In theory, they could do the same for Mana
: Sources, although there would have to be a "darn good reason" why such a
: spell/ability would be created.
Yeah, like another installment to Unglued. A great card idea to
simplfy timing:
"All spells and abilities are played as mana sources."
Marcus Malden
"Roll a six-sided die whenever a player plays a spell. On a result of 1
the spell fails completely. 2 - play the spell as a sorcery. 3 - play
the spell as an instant. 4 - play the spell as an interrupt. 5 - play
the spell as a mana source. 6 - roll twice more" :-)
SCNR
Marcus "shooting at the thread, yelling 'die, thread! die!'" Malden