Experiment Kraj (x2) and "Play the ability only once each turn"
Mekkis
counter on it. I also have Patron of the Orochi in play with a +1/+1
counter on it.
I am assuming that Experiment Kraj now has the following abilities:
Experiment Kraj has all activated abilities of each other creature with
a +1/+1 counter on it.
T: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
T: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
T: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
... (repeat indefinately)
T: Untap all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability only
once each turn.
T: Untap all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability only
once each turn.
T: Untap all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability only
once each turn.
... (repeat indefinately).
First question: Is this correct?
Second question: Can I then have Experiment Kraj use as many "T: Untap
all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability only once each
turn." abilities as I want to in a given turn.
Thanks,
Patron of the Orochi
6GG
Legendary Creature — Spirit
7/7
Snake offering (You may play this card any time you could play an
instant by sacrificing a Snake and paying the difference in mana costs
between this and the sacrificed Snake. Mana cost includes color.)
T: Untap all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability only
once each turn.
Experiment Kraj
2GGUU
Legendary Creature — Ooze Mutant
4/6
Experiment Kraj has all activated abilities of each other creature with
a +1/+1 counter on it.
T: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
Mirror Gallery
5
Artifact
The “legend rule” doesn’t apply.
Jeff Heikkinen
> I have a mirror gallery and 2 Experiment Kraj in play, one has a +1/+1
> counter on it. I also have Patron of the Orochi in play with a +1/+1
> counter on it.
>
> I am assuming that Experiment Kraj now has the following abilities:
> Experiment Kraj has all activated abilities of each other creature with
> a +1/+1 counter on it.
> T: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
> T: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
> T: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
> ... (repeat indefinately)
> T: Untap all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability only
> once each turn.
> T: Untap all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability only
> once each turn.
> T: Untap all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability only
> once each turn.
> ... (repeat indefinately).
>
> First question: Is this correct?
They would, as far as I can see, each have two instances of each
ability. (You only apply each effect once, as far as I can tell - this
seems to at least be the *intent* of the dependency rule.) Most
importantly, I am quite confident they would each have exactly two
instances of the ability to untap all forests and green creatures.
> Second question: Can I then have Experiment Kraj use as many "T: Untap
> all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability only once each
> turn." abilities as I want to in a given turn.
They can play as many as they have, since each is a distinct ability. In
this scenario, it looks to me like you can do this a total of five times
each turn (yours *and* your opponent's), once for the original and twice
for each Experiment Kraj, which should be plenty. But "only" five, not
an indefinite number.
Zoe Stephenson
> I have a mirror gallery and 2 Experiment Kraj in play, one has a +1/+1
> counter on it. I also have Patron of the Orochi in play with a +1/+1
> counter on it.
OK, so Mirror Gallery is just there to allow the two Experiment Kraj to
be in play.
Experiment Kraj {2}{G}{G}{U}{U} Legendary Creature - Ooze Mutant 4/6
/ Experiment Kraj has all activated abilities of each other creature
with a +1/+1 counter on it.
/ {T}: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
Patron of the Orochi {6}{G}{G} Legendary Creature - Spirit 7/7
/ Snake offering
/ {T}: Untap all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability
only once each turn.
So we have two static abilities with continuous effects that need to be
put in the right order. They are both layer 5 abilities, both
characteristic-setting, and they both depend on one another, so we
apply them in timestamp order. You didn't specify a particular order,
so here's what happens in each case:
1. the one with the +1/+1 counter is first:
Experiment Kraj with the +1/+1 counter:
/ Experiment Kraj has all activated abilities of each other creature
with a +1/+1 counter on it. [own]
/ {T}: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature. [own]
/ {T}: Untap all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability
only once each turn. [From Patron of the Orochi]
Experiment Kraj without the +1/+1 counter:
/ Experiment Kraj has all activated abilities of each other creature
with a +1/+1 counter on it. [own]
/ {T}: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature. [own]
/ {T}: Untap all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability
only once each turn. [from Patron of the Orochi]
/ {T}: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature. [from other Kraj]
/ {T}: Untap all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability
only once each turn. [from other Kraj]
2. the one without the +1/+1 counter is first:
Experiment Kraj without the +1/+1 counter:
/ Experiment Kraj has all activated abilities of each other creature
with a +1/+1 counter on it. [own]
/ {T}: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature. [own]
/ {T}: Untap all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability
only once each turn. [from Patron of the Orochi]
/ {T}: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature. [from other Kraj]
Experiment Kraj with the +1/+1 counter:
/ Experiment Kraj has all activated abilities of each other creature
with a +1/+1 counter on it. [own]
/ {T}: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature. [own]
/ {T}: Untap all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability
only once each turn. [From Patron of the Orochi]
So, long story short, if the one with the +1/+1 counter came into play
first, then the one without the +1/+1 counter gets an extra Patron of
the Orochi ability.
> I am assuming that Experiment Kraj now has the following abilities:
> Experiment Kraj has all activated abilities of each other creature with
> a +1/+1 counter on it.
> T: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
> T: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
> T: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
> ... (repeat indefinately)
> T: Untap all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability only
> once each turn.
> T: Untap all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability only
> once each turn.
> T: Untap all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability only
> once each turn.
> ... (repeat indefinately).
> First question: Is this correct?
No. Each continuous effect only applies once as you go up through the
layers. They don't continually iterate round trying to add more and
more abilities on, precisely because in situations like the one you
theorise here, the game would never finish finding out what abilities
the permanents had.
> Second question: Can I then have Experiment Kraj use as many "T: Untap
> all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability only once each
> turn." abilities as I want to in a given turn.
You can play each such ability once. Depending on the set-up, there
will be either three or four of these abilities. Assume that two of
these are on an Experiment Kraj, then you'll end up being able to tap
that Experiment Kraj to untap itself, all the other green creatures
and all the forests twice per turn.
--
-- Zoe Stephenson, NetRep rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules
Group FAQ: http://www.boondock.org.uk/~zoe/mtgrules/ --
--
Zoe Stephenson
Since only one of them has a +1/+1 counter on, it depends on the order
in which they came into play. And since you have to apply the abilities
once only in some order, there's no way to get both Experiment Kraj to
have two copies of the Patron of the Orochi's ability. One of them has
to gain the abilities first; at that point the other Experiment Kraj
will not have gained the untap ability from the Patron of the Orochi,
so that Experiment Kraj will get just one copy of the ability.
> > Second question: Can I then have Experiment Kraj use as many "T: Untap
> > all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability only once each
> > turn." abilities as I want to in a given turn.
> They can play as many as they have, since each is a distinct ability. In
> this scenario, it looks to me like you can do this a total of five times
> each turn (yours *and* your opponent's), once for the original and twice
> for each Experiment Kraj, which should be plenty. But "only" five, not
> an indefinite number.
This will work out to be three or four, depending on timestamp. If the
Experiment Kraj both have a +1/+1 counter on, then it's always 4, with
the most recently-played being the one with the two untap abilities.
David DeLaney
about Experiment Kraj vs "Play this ability only once each turn"-type
limitations. The Kraj's gained ability is a different ability from the
original card's; limitations on one do not also restrain the other - you
may play the original's once, and the Kraj's once, per turn, for example.
Also, if you have three of the original card, the Kraj will gain the
ability once from each, and can use each of those abilities once each turn...
On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 13:27:57 -1000, Mekkis <ti89...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I have a mirror gallery and 2 Experiment Kraj in play, one has a +1/+1
>counter on it. I also have Patron of the Orochi in play with a +1/+1
>counter on it.
>
>I am assuming that Experiment Kraj now has the following abilities:
>Experiment Kraj has all activated abilities of each other creature with
>a +1/+1 counter on it.
>T: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
>T: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
>T: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
>... (repeat indefinately)
...Heh.
>T: Untap all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability only
>once each turn.
>T: Untap all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability only
>once each turn.
>T: Untap all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability only
>once each turn.
>... (repeat indefinately).
>
>First question: Is this correct?
Um. Very insightful question :) - and yes, I don't think anyone quite realized
this. I'd have to say "yes"... with the caveat that I belive we'll be able to
hear the yelling from here, once Zoe takes this back to the other netreps...
This MAY end up with EK hastily Errated to "each other creature not named
Experiment Kraj with a ...", which would definitely scrap this "not really a
loop" at its beginning. Note that R&D has already been notified, early in
the design of this card, that letting through an ability that stole other
creatures' _continuous_ abilities makes the rules Curl Up And Die Horribly,
and also note that ______, which can change its name, has no way to steal
other cards' powers. However, Sakashima the Impostor drives a hole through
that solution, rats. So maybe "each other creature with a +1/+1 counter on it
that does not have this power".
(Another solution would be "When you gain control of EK, sacrifice all other
creatures you control named EK", but Sakashima splatters that too, and really
sort of kills any solution depending on knowing the other "EK" would have the
name Experiment Kraj...)
>Second question: Can I then have Experiment Kraj use as many "T: Untap
>all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability only once each
>turn." abilities as I want to in a given turn.
Ugh. Yes. Since we don't have anything saying "An ability that B gains because
A has it and A gains back because B has it is the same ability as A's original
ability and must obey the same play restrictions."... ZOE!
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
>> They would, as far as I can see, each have two instances of each
>> ability. (You only apply each effect once, as far as I can tell - this
>> seems to at least be the *intent* of the dependency rule.) Most
>> importantly, I am quite confident they would each have exactly two
>> instances of the ability to untap all forests and green creatures.
>
>Since only one of them has a +1/+1 counter on, it depends on the order
>in which they came into play. And since you have to apply the abilities
>once only in some order, there's no way to get both Experiment Kraj to
>have two copies of the Patron of the Orochi's ability. One of them has
>to gain the abilities first; at that point the other Experiment Kraj
>will not have gained the untap ability from the Patron of the Orochi,
>so that Experiment Kraj will get just one copy of the ability.
Hm. Okay. Duh. Whew. Of course, 'don't keep reapplying continuous effects
over and over again just because situations change during continuous-effect
application', I should KNOW this.
David DeLaney
>Mekkis <ti89...@gmail.com> sent:
>> I have a mirror gallery and 2 Experiment Kraj in play, one has a +1/+1
>> counter on it. I also have Patron of the Orochi in play with a +1/+1
>> counter on it.
>
>OK, so Mirror Gallery is just there to allow the two Experiment Kraj to
>be in play.
>
> Experiment Kraj {2}{G}{G}{U}{U} Legendary Creature - Ooze Mutant 4/6
>/ Experiment Kraj has all activated abilities of each other creature
> with a +1/+1 counter on it.
>/ {T}: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
>
>put in the right order. They are both layer 5 abilities, both
>characteristic-setting, and they both depend on one another, so we
>apply them in timestamp order.
Side question: Since only one EK has a +1/+1 counter on it, +do+ they
depend on one another? The EK without the counter wants to gain the abilities
from the one that does; the EK with the counter does not want to gain the
abilities from the one that doesn't have one. So applying the ability on the
one that doesn't have one _doesn't_ change the text or existence of the
ability on the one that does, what it applies to, or what it does - so:
shouldn't the dependency only go one way here?
(If both have +1/+1 counters on them, then sure, break to timestamp - yes?)
(And I admit I missed seeing that he specified only one of them had a +1/+1
counter on it - I thought both would, since if only one does you can't
logically get to 'each one reflects the other'.)
David DeLaney
>Before getting to your post itself: ...
And after reading Zoe's reply, with a point I missed, and noticing that
I also missed a different point, a CORRECTED version of an answer... Now with
Actual Algebra!
>On Sun, 04 Jun 2006 13:27:57 -1000, Mekkis <ti89...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>I have a mirror gallery and 2 Experiment Kraj in play, one has a +1/+1
>>counter on it. I also have Patron of the Orochi in play with a +1/+1
>>counter on it.
>>
>>I am assuming that Experiment Kraj now has the following abilities:
>>Experiment Kraj has all activated abilities of each other creature with
>>a +1/+1 counter on it.
>>T: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
>>T: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
>>T: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
>>... (repeat indefinately)
>
>...Heh.
Okay. First off, you specified that only one of the EKs had a +1/+1 counter
on it (which I missed seeing the first time round because I was assuming you
were going for the mirror-mirror case). That being the case, the OTHER EK has
no way to "pick up" abilities that the first EK gets, so this can't "loop" in
the first place. The non-+1/+1 EK gets the ability of the Orochi twice and the
ability of the other EK; the +1/+1 EK gets only the ability of the Orochi.
(If I'm reading the dependency right, and I've asked Zoe about this in a
separate post, the ability of the one WITH the +1/+1 counter does not depend on
that of the one without one, since it's not trying to get abilities from that
EK? The ability of the one WITHOUT the +1/+1 counter DOES depend on the ability
of the EK with one, since it's trying to gain the abilities that EK has,
changing what it does to itself?)
Secondly, even if both had +1/+1 counters on them, each one's continuous
ability giving it other creatures' abilities gets applied once, not
repeatedly. (Which I should KNOW in my bones, having dealt with this for
years, but which STILL slipped my mind because ooo shiny.) In that case,
if each depends on the other, you break to timestamp order for applying
them; thus, the one that came into play earlier gets the ability of the
Orochi plus one Tap-to-add-+1/+1-counter ability from the other EK, while
the one that came into play later gets the ability of the Orochi twice
(once from the Orochi, once from the earlier-applied EK) and gets two
additional Tap-to-add-+1/+1-counter abilities (for a total of three, including
its original one) from the other EK.
So, EITHER way, it looks like one gets two Tap-to-add-counter abilities and
one Tap-to-untap-stuff ability, while the other gets three of the former and
two of the latter.
(Similarly, with N>2 EKs, the first-applied, whatever the order
of application ends up being, gets one Orochi ability and N-1 extra EK
abilities, the second gets two Orochi abilities and 2*(N-1) extra EK
abilities ... the Nth gets N Orochi abilities and N*(N-1) extra EK tap-to-add-
+1/+1-counter abilities. Yes? For a total of 1 + N*(N+1)/2 Orochi abilities
between everything.)
>>First question: Is this correct?
>
>Um. Very insightful question :) - and yes, I don't think anyone quite realized
>this. I'd have to say "yes"...
On closer inspection that becomes "no". So...
>>Second question: Can I then have Experiment Kraj use as many "T: Untap
>>all Forests and all green creatures. Play this ability only once each
>>turn." abilities as I want to in a given turn.
"no" here too. Each one can only use as many as it has. In your scenario, or
the one where both have a +1/+1 counter, it looks like that's a total of
one from the Orochi itself, and three more from the two EKs: four times
per turn. [Which is still better than the naive "three - one from the Orochi
and one from each EK" answer :) ]
Zoe Stephenson
> Zoe Stephenson <use...@daeghnao.com> wrote:
> >Mekkis <ti89...@gmail.com> sent:
> >> I have a mirror gallery and 2 Experiment Kraj in play, one has a +1/+1
> >> counter on it. I also have Patron of the Orochi in play with a +1/+1
> >> counter on it.
> >
> >OK, so Mirror Gallery is just there to allow the two Experiment Kraj to
> >be in play.
> >
> > Experiment Kraj {2}{G}{G}{U}{U} Legendary Creature - Ooze Mutant 4/6
> >/ Experiment Kraj has all activated abilities of each other creature
> > with a +1/+1 counter on it.
> >/ {T}: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.
> >
> >So we have two static abilities with continuous effects that need to be
> >put in the right order. They are both layer 5 abilities, both
> >characteristic-setting, and they both depend on one another, so we
> >apply them in timestamp order.
> Side question: Since only one EK has a +1/+1 counter on it, +do+ they
> depend on one another? The EK without the counter wants to gain the abilities
> from the one that does; the EK with the counter does not want to gain the
> abilities from the one that doesn't have one. So applying the ability on the
> one that doesn't have one _doesn't_ change the text or existence of the
> ability on the one that does, what it applies to, or what it does - so:
> shouldn't the dependency only go one way here?
I'd ask this of the other gurus right away, except that (i) I'm off to
London this afternoon for a conference, where I am unlikely to have
email access and (ii) if I ask this right now, there'll be a
Discussion, and I want to be there as the emails fly for that kind of a
Discussion. Rest assured, we've already had a few rounds of Kraj and
dependency, and there's still some discussion going on. Likely I'll
toss this in on Friday, once I'm back from the conference, assuming my
brain comes back with me.
> (If both have +1/+1 counters on them, then sure, break to timestamp - yes?)
> (And I admit I missed seeing that he specified only one of them had a +1/+1
> counter on it - I thought both would, since if only one does you can't
> logically get to 'each one reflects the other'.)
--