Is discard-phase discard an effect?
Thomas R Wylie
Discarding down to 7 cards is treated as a fast effect, yes, just like
drawing one card during the draw phase. Therefore, you can respond to it
with effects like Ancestral Recall. Note that unlike the draw during the
draw phase, it doesn't simply happen once during discard. If for some
reason your hand keeps getting back above seven cards, you keep discarding
down to 7 until you can move on past the phase.
Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Joseph W. DeVincentis
Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>Discarding down to 7 cards is treated as a fast effect, yes, just like
>drawing one card during the draw phase. Therefore, you can respond to it
>with effects like Ancestral Recall. Note that unlike the draw during the
>draw phase, it doesn't simply happen once during discard. If for some
>reason your hand keeps getting back above seven cards, you keep discarding
>down to 7 until you can move on past the phase.
Hehehe... think about this one:
/dev/joe's Vise 2
[insert cool art]
Artifact
Whenever target opponent discards
a card, he must draw a card.
David DeLaney
>Question: Is the decision to handle discarding [as required by the
>Discard Phase] an effect that can be responded to?
Sure. It's an instant-speed fast effect with no cost. You can't end
discard phase with more than 7 cards, so you may end up having to discard
several times during discard phase. ["I discard down to seven. I cast
Ancestral Recall. I try to end discard phase. Oops - I can't yet.
I discard down to seven. I use Xira Arien on me. I try to end discard phase.
Oops - I can't yet. I discard down to seven. I eat an artifact with my Sage
of Lat-Nam. I try to end my discard phase. Oops - I can't yet..."],
but only if a) you're getting cards into your hand during discard phase
or b) your Library of Leng taps during this phase [UL only] or c) opponent's
Cursed Rack _un_taps during this phase...
>Situation: I was targeted by a Black Vise and needed to ditch a
>spell innocuously. The only candidate was Ancestral Recall. If I
>cast it on myself, I'd only make the Vise problem worse. But casting it
>on my opponent would give him more cards, doubly bad because he had an
>Ivory Tower. To minimize the damage, I wanted to use the Ancestral
>Recall as a response to opponent's decision of "Okay, I'll check to
>see if I have to discard now." If this works, the Ancestrally Recalled
>cards flow into opponent's hand during stack resolution, followed
>immediately and uninterruptably by the discard operation.
That works fine. Also useful is "I cast Ancestral Recall, which leaves my hand
when announced - in response, I check my Vise damage. Oh look, four cards.
Oh joy, three more cards appear immediately afterwards..."
He can't
>use any of them until after discarding down to seven cards.
Given the above stack, this is correct.
At least that's what *I'd* say. I really don't think this has been Ruled
on much at all; I can't find much on it.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. Disclaimer: IMHO; VRbeableURLAP
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Tim Murtaugh
: c...@mercury.interpath.net (Node 1) writes:
: >Question: Is the decision to handle discarding [as required by the
: >Discard Phase] an effect that can be responded to?
: Sure. It's an instant-speed fast effect with no cost. You can't end
: discard phase with more than 7 cards, so you may end up having to discard
: several times during discard phase. ["I discard down to seven. I cast
: Ancestral Recall. I try to end discard phase. Oops - I can't yet.
: I discard down to seven. I use Xira Arien on me. I try to end discard phase.
: Oops - I can't yet. I discard down to seven. I eat an artifact with my Sage
: of Lat-Nam. I try to end my discard phase. Oops - I can't yet..."],
(cut)
: At least that's what *I'd* say. I really don't think this has been Ruled
: on much at all; I can't find much on it.
I'd have to say that you are very wrong. Your _draw_ phase is not an
effect it just happens. No matter how many cards you are drawing,
nothing can be cast during this period, no matter how slowly you draw them.
The idea being that you draw all your cards at the same time; BOOM; in
the blink of an eye you have another spell. It is safe to assume that
your discard phase is treated the same way. At the end of your turn if
you have nine cards, you choose two to discard and; BOOM; you lost two
spells. Once you discard you cannot do anything else in your turn and
neither can your opponent. That is one reason that it is so important to
tell your opponent that you are done and does he/she have anything to do?
If you have eight cards and one of them is Ancestral Recall, yes you can
declare your intention to discard, and yes as an instant(if it's an instant
I can't remember off hand) you may choose to cast AR but it will resolve
_before_ your discard phase so you then effectively have ten cards to
deal with.
Sorry to be so long winded.
"Be excellent to each other."
Dr Fish
: Dave
Mike Marcelais
| David DeLaney (d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu) wrote:
| : c...@mercury.interpath.net (Node 1) writes:
| : >Question: Is the decision to handle discarding [as required by the
| : >Discard Phase] an effect that can be responded to?
| : Sure. It's an instant-speed fast effect with no cost. You can't end
| : discard phase with more than 7 cards, so you may end up having to discard
| : several times during discard phase. ["I discard down to seven. I cast
| : Ancestral Recall. I try to end discard phase. Oops - I can't yet.
| : I discard down to seven. I use Xira Arien on me. I try to end discard phase.
| : Oops - I can't yet. I discard down to seven. I eat an artifact with my Sage
| : of Lat-Nam. I try to end my discard phase. Oops - I can't yet..."],
| (cut)
| : At least that's what *I'd* say. I really don't think this has been Ruled
| : on much at all; I can't find much on it.
| I'd have to say that you are very wrong. Your _draw_ phase is not an
| effect it just happens. No matter how many cards you are drawing,
| nothing can be cast during this period, no matter how slowly you draw them.
| The idea being that you draw all your cards at the same time; BOOM; in
| the blink of an eye you have another spell. It is safe to assume that
| your discard phase is treated the same way.
Of all the statments in this paragraph, only the last is correct.
Fast effects _are_ allowed during your draw phase. Your normal card draw
is an Instant speed effect which must be done exactly once. Howling mines,
etc, add additional fast effects. Discard phase works the same way.
--
+------------------------+----------------------------+
| Mike Marcelais | mrma...@eos.ncsu.edu |
| Moonstone Dragon | Magic: The Gathering Judge |
| -==(UDIC)==- | Author of ChrHack 2.3 |
+-----------------------------------------------------+
Thomas R Wylie
Tim Murtaugh <tmur...@college.antioch.edu> wrote:
> I'd have to say that you are very wrong. Your _draw_ phase is not an
>effect it just happens. No matter how many cards you are drawing,
>nothing can be cast during this period, no matter how slowly you draw them.
>The idea being that you draw all your cards at the same time; BOOM; in
That may have been true at one time, but if so, it changed several editions
ago. The draw phase is full-fledged phase, just like upkeep or the
end phase. The thing that's unique about draw is that you get one free
draw during that phase, which acts as an instant.
Discard is similar. It's a full fledged phase, with the unique feature
that if needed, you discard down to 7 as an instant, and repeat as necessary.
David DeLaney
>David DeLaney (d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu) wrote:
>: Sure. It's an instant-speed fast effect with no cost. You can't end
>: discard phase with more than 7 cards, so you may end up having to discard
>: several times during discard phase. ["I discard down to seven. I cast
>: Ancestral Recall. I try to end discard phase. Oops - I can't yet.
>: I discard down to seven. I use Xira Arien on me. I try to end discard phase.
>: Oops - I can't yet. I discard down to seven. I eat an artifact with my Sage
>: of Lat-Nam. I try to end my discard phase. Oops - I can't yet..."],
>
>effect it just happens.
I'd have to say that you haven't read the rulebook yet.
>No matter how many cards you are drawing,
>nothing can be cast during this period, no matter how slowly you draw them.
Yep - you have Neglected To Find Out If You Know What You're Talking About.
Pages 40-41, "More on the turn sequence": "Either player may use fast effects
during draw [phase]" and "Any player may use fast effects during discard"
{phase}.
>The idea being that you draw all your cards at the same time; BOOM; in
>the blink of an eye you have another spell. It is safe to assume that
>your discard phase is treated the same way.
It is safe to assume that discard phase is treated the same way as draw
phase. It is *not* safe to assume that they are treated as "contradicts
what the Rulebook has to say about it".
>Once you discard you cannot do anything else in your turn and
>neither can your opponent.
False again. "End" phase is there specifically to allow your opponent
to use fast effects after you have ended discard phase but before your
turn ends.
Daniele Monterisi
>Discard is similar. It's a full fledged phase, with the unique feature
>that if needed, you discard down to 7 as an instant, and repeat as necessary.
So if I have understood, I can respond to my opponent announcing that
he's discarding or that he's ending his discard phase by casting a
Hurkyl's Recall that brings him to 10+ cards, _without him having the
chance to use any spell between the resolution of HR and his
discarding down to 7_???
Is this right?
Thanks
Daniele
>
Subject: Is discard-phase discard an effect?
In article <44hsbk$h...@college.antioch.edu>, tmur...@college.antioch.edu (Tim
Murtaugh) writes:
>David DeLaney (d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu) wrote:
>: c...@mercury.interpath.net (Node 1) writes:
>: >Question: Is the decision to handle discarding [as required by the
>: >Discard Phase] an effect that can be responded to?
>
>: Sure. It's an instant-speed fast effect with no cost. You can't end
>: discard phase with more than 7 cards, so you may end up having to discard
>: several times during discard phase. ["I discard down to seven. I cast
>: Ancestral Recall. I try to end discard phase. Oops - I can't yet.
>: I discard down to seven. I use Xira Arien on me. I try to end discard phase.
>: Oops - I can't yet. I discard down to seven. I eat an artifact with my Sage
>: of Lat-Nam. I try to end my discard phase. Oops - I can't yet..."],
>
>(cut)
>: At least that's what *I'd* say. I really don't think this has been Ruled
>: on much at all; I can't find much on it.
>
> I'd have to say that you are very wrong. Your _draw_ phase is not an
>effect it just happens. No matter how many cards you are drawing,
>nothing can be cast during this period, no matter how slowly you draw them.
<other stuff snipped>
What?!?!?! The rulings (and maybe even the rule book; I haven't checked
lately) clearly state that drawing *is* an effect that can be responded to.
Therefore, discarding is *also* an effect that can be responded to (like you
can save your Disrupting Scepter to make the poor bastard discard *again* after
discarding... >:) The only phases that allow *no* effects are untap and
declaration of attack.
Rick "Twisted"
"May you always go first" -- Curse of Magic
J. Andrew Lipscomb
Yes, but he can answer that by Divine Offering some of his artifacts,
lessening the impact and gaining life.
J. Andrew Lipscomb <ew...@chattanooga.net, them...@delphi.com>
PGP keys by request
Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian.
Mike Marcelais
| aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) wrote:
| >Discard is similar. It's a full fledged phase, with the unique feature
| >that if needed, you discard down to 7 as an instant, and repeat as necessary.
| So if I have understood, I can respond to my opponent announcing that
| he's discarding or that he's ending his discard phase by casting a
| Hurkyl's Recall that brings him to 10+ cards, _without him having the
| chance to use any spell between the resolution of HR and his
| discarding down to 7_???
| Is this right?
Not quite. _Each_ discard is a separate effect, so if he is at 10 cards,
and you respond to a card discard, _that_ card is still gone and he picks
up all of his artifacts, but he'll still have the other 9 original cards and
can choose to discard something else.
If you cast it at the end of the phase, then he can't leave the phase (you
can't leave discard phase with more than 7 cards) so he'd have to discard
some more cards. Since fast effects are allowed during discard, he can
cast any Instants or Interrupts from his hand also; but he can't cast those
Artifacts you just made him pick up.
Thomas R Wylie
Mike Marcelais <mrma...@eos.ncsu.edu> wrote:
>Not quite. _Each_ discard is a separate effect, so if he is at 10 cards,
>and you respond to a card discard, _that_ card is still gone and he picks
>up all of his artifacts, but he'll still have the other 9 original cards and
>can choose to discard something else.
>
>If you cast it at the end of the phase, then he can't leave the phase (you
>can't leave discard phase with more than 7 cards) so he'd have to discard
>some more cards. Since fast effects are allowed during discard, he can
>cast any Instants or Interrupts from his hand also; but he can't cast those
>Artifacts you just made him pick up.
Ah, no. The discarding effect is discard-all-at-once; you go down to
seven cards, and that's it.
To answer the original question, the player could just respond to Hurkyl's
Recall by playing fast effects, to avoid having a hand size greater
than seven. Since you can't cast artifacts during discard anyway, it's
unlikely that waiting for the artifacts to return to your hand would have
increased your options, so you should be ok, or at least, as ok as you
would have been without the chance to respond.
Thomas R Wylie
Michael D. Phoenix <mic...@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>>Ah, no. The discarding effect is discard-all-at-once; you go down to
>>seven cards, and that's it.
>respond by doing the "discard down to 7" effect, which will resolve
>before the HR resolves? And then I am ending the turn with more than
>7 cards in my hand?
No. You cannot end your discard phase with more than seven cards
in hand, so keep playing the discard-to-7 effect as necessary.
>And, conversely, if I declare that I am handling the discard effect,
>and in response someone Hurkyl's Recall's me, I have to discard down
>to 7 cards including the HR cards?
This is correct.
Michael D. Phoenix
>>Not quite. _Each_ discard is a separate effect, so if he is at 10 cards,
>>and you respond to a card discard, _that_ card is still gone and he picks
>>up all of his artifacts, but he'll still have the other 9 original cards and
>>can choose to discard something else.
>>
>>If you cast it at the end of the phase, then he can't leave the phase (you
>>can't leave discard phase with more than 7 cards) so he'd have to discard
>>some more cards. Since fast effects are allowed during discard, he can
>>cast any Instants or Interrupts from his hand also; but he can't cast those
>>Artifacts you just made him pick up.
>
>seven cards, and that's it.
So...if someone Hurkyl's Recall's me during my Discard phase, I can
respond by doing the "discard down to 7" effect, which will resolve
before the HR resolves? And then I am ending the turn with more than
7 cards in my hand?
And, conversely, if I declare that I am handling the discard effect,
and in response someone Hurkyl's Recall's me, I have to discard down
to 7 cards including the HR cards?
Just making sure I understood you correctly...
Thanks,
Mickey.
Kyle Nishioka
: In article <45bh30$a...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>,
: Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
: >
: >Mike Marcelais <mrma...@eos.ncsu.edu> wrote:
: >>Not quite. _Each_ discard is a separate effect, so if he is at 10 cards,
: >>and you respond to a card discard, _that_ card is still gone and he picks
: >>up all of his artifacts, but he'll still have the other 9 original cards and
: >>can choose to discard something else.
: >>
: >>If you cast it at the end of the phase, then he can't leave the phase (you
: >>can't leave discard phase with more than 7 cards) so he'd have to discard
: >>some more cards. Since fast effects are allowed during discard, he can
: >>cast any Instants or Interrupts from his hand also; but he can't cast those
: >>Artifacts you just made him pick up.
: >
: >Ah, no. The discarding effect is discard-all-at-once; you go down to
: >seven cards, and that's it.
: So...if someone Hurkyl's Recall's me during my Discard phase, I can
: respond by doing the "discard down to 7" effect, which will resolve
: before the HR resolves? And then I am ending the turn with more than
: 7 cards in my hand?
Read the above post again. You cannot leave the phase w/ more than 7
cards in your hand. The "discard down to 7" may be applied more than once.
: And, conversely, if I declare that I am handling the discard effect,
: and in response someone Hurkyl's Recall's me, I have to discard down
: to 7 cards including the HR cards?
Yes.
--
Kyle
nk...@uhunix3.its.hawaii.edu
#include <std_disclaimer.h>
David DeLaney
:My spies tell me that Daniele Monterisi (d.mon...@agora.stm.it) wrote:
:| aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) wrote:
:| >Discard is similar. It's a full fledged phase, with the unique feature
:| >that if needed, you discard down to 7 as an instant, and repeat as necessary.
:
:| So if I have understood, I can respond to my opponent announcing that
:| he's discarding or that he's ending his discard phase by casting a
:| Hurkyl's Recall that brings him to 10+ cards, _without him having the
:| chance to use any spell between the resolution of HR and his
:| discarding down to 7_???
:| Is this right?
:Not quite. _Each_ discard is a separate effect, so if he is at 10 cards,
:and you respond to a card discard, _that_ card is still gone and he picks
:up all of his artifacts, but he'll still have the other 9 original cards and
:can choose to discard something else.
Er, no. The effect is "Discard down to seven", not "Discard one at a time
each as a fast effect until you have seven or less cards". It's a "Discard
X cards" effect, which resolves all at once; once he declares he's going to
discard down to seven, when that resolves he discards-down-to-seven when
that instant-speed effect resolves, all during the one effect's resolution.
Think of it as an inverse Braingeyser.
He *can't* choose to discard only one card unless he's at 8 cards when his
discard-to-seven resolves [or five cards when his discard-to-four resolves
under Cursed Rack].
Mike Marcelais
| In article <45bh30$a...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>,
| Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
| >
| >Mike Marcelais <mrma...@eos.ncsu.edu> wrote:
| >>and you respond to a card discard, _that_ card is still gone and he picks
| >>up all of his artifacts, but he'll still have the other 9 original cards and
| >>can choose to discard something else.
| >>
| >>can't leave discard phase with more than 7 cards) so he'd have to discard
| >>some more cards. Since fast effects are allowed during discard, he can
| >>cast any Instants or Interrupts from his hand also; but he can't cast those
| >>Artifacts you just made him pick up.
| >
| >Ah, no. The discarding effect is discard-all-at-once; you go down to
| >seven cards, and that's it.
| So...if someone Hurkyl's Recall's me during my Discard phase, I can
| respond by doing the "discard down to 7" effect, which will resolve
| before the HR resolves? And then I am ending the turn with more than
| 7 cards in my hand?
| And, conversely, if I declare that I am handling the discard effect,
| and in response someone Hurkyl's Recall's me, I have to discard down
| to 7 cards including the HR cards?
| Just making sure I understood you correctly...
No, the discard down to 7 is just a fast effect during your discard phase.
(My error was thinking that each individual discard was a separate fast
effect action, but oh well -- the idea is still the same). You cannot
end your Discard phase with more than 7 cards. So, if you do a discard
down to 7 effect, then get hit with a H's Recall and get above 7 cards, you
will either have to cast down to 7 or use another `discard down to 7' effect.
Daniele Monterisi
d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu (David DeLaney) wrote:
>>_without him having the
>>chance to use any spell between the resolution of HR and his
>>discarding down to 7_???
>Careful here. If he announced he's discarding, then you may respond to that
>with HR and the HR will happen immediately before the discard. If he announced
>he's _ending his discard phase_, then you may say "Wait - before you do, I HR
>you". This _backs him up_ into his discard phase still, and he gets to use
>more fast effects after the HR before he tries to again end his discard
>phase if he likes. [He can't cast any artifacts then though.]
OK, maybe I can use a better example.
Let's suppose You are in your discard phase and announce you're
discarding down to 7. I use an Ancestral recall forcing you to draw 3
cards.
You don't have any instant/interrupt you'd like to use now (before the
AR).
So you draw 3 cards, including an instant. Can you use it before
discarding? I think you can't.
So far for the announce of discarding.
But if you have , say, 6 cards and announce you're ending the discard
phase, and I use the AR as above, then you are backed up to your
discard phase. Or are you forced to end the phase immediately after
the resolution of AR, therefore having no chance to use the instant
you draw to avoid discarding a card? Based on what you said it seems
to be the first of these 2 possibilities.
Excuse me if my english is confusing, I'm from Italy.
Thanks,
bye
Dan
WARNING:NEW ADDRESS dmo...@mbox.vol.it
(the old one is useful for some times yet)
--- For when the Great One Scorer comes to write against your name ---
--- He marks not if you won or lost, but how you played the game ---
David DeLaney
>Sorry to be annoying, but i want to understand...
That's all right. You have *no* idea how Annoying some of us can be when
provoked properly...
>d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu (David DeLaney) wrote:
>>Careful here. If he announced he's discarding, then you may respond to that
>>with HR and the HR will happen immediately before the discard. If he announced
>>he's _ending his discard phase_, then you may say "Wait - before you do, I HR
>>you". This _backs him up_ into his discard phase still, and he gets to use
>>more fast effects after the HR before he tries to again end his discard
>>phase if he likes. [He can't cast any artifacts then though.]
>
>OK, maybe I can use a better example.
>Let's suppose You are in your discard phase and announce you're
>discarding down to 7. I use an Ancestral recall forcing you to draw 3 cards.
Okay [this goes on the stack].
>You don't have any instant/interrupt you'd like to use now (before the AR).
>So you draw 3 cards, including an instant. Can you use it before
>discarding? I think you can't.
You can't; the Ancestral Recall got put on the stack "on top of" the
instant-speed "discard to 7" effect, and will resolve right before the
discard effect resolves, in accordance with the normal fast-effect timing
rules. There's no chance to start new fast effects while resolving old
ones [* normal footnote about triggered effects and damage-prevention
steps goes here].
You could instead have waited for the "discard to 7" effect to resolve,
and the discard to happen, then started a new stack with the Ancestral Recall,
which would end up forcing him to draw three cards and, if he couldn't
cast 3 fast effect spells or force/allow himself to discard somehow, would
also cause him to have to use "discard to 7" *again* before he could end
his discard phase.
>So far for the announce of discarding.
>But if you have , say, 6 cards and announce you're ending the discard
>phase, and I use the AR as above, then you are backed up to your
>discard phase.
Correct. You can then cast fast-effect spells, since they're legal during
discard, or discard down to 7 as a fast effect if you have more than 7 cards,
in any order; you can't again try to end discard phase until your hand is
down below 8 cards.
>Or are you forced to end the phase immediately after
>the resolution of AR,
No. You're not forced to try to end the phase _again_ simply because you
tried to end it before; you are truly "backed up" back past the point where
you said "I want to end discard phase now". This is _just_ like the "back
up, I want to use a fast effect before the attack" backup; once that's done,
the active player _need not_ try again immediately to attack, but can go
on and do other main-phase things.
>Excuse me if my english is confusing, I'm from Italy.
That's okay. English is confusing to _everyone_ at times; it's a mishmashed
conglomerate of an ill-spelled language. Its saving grace is that it has
very easy, mostly, cases and tenses...