Rudy Edwards breaks the untap phase to win!!!
way...@auburn.campus.mci.net
I was hanging out at the Warzone Saturday night after the ptq. Rudy
Edwards, Chip Hogan, Aziz Al-doory, Shay Hall, Josh Bradford, Scott
Reinfeld,Brian Engle,And myself, Will Ayers played in a non-sanctioned
5th/Mirage/Italian Legends booster draft. I, being a relative newcomer to
the big leagues, drafted like a little girl with sand in her panties,
ended up with 4 creatures and an x spell, and little else. I get my
panties whooped when little weenie hordes tear me a new orifice, by Shay
Hall who drafted 2 Hecatombs, a Blanket of Night, and a Kormus Bell.
In the finals, Rudy Edwards was playing Chip Hogan. In the third game
Chip is beating down Rudy with a Vaevictus Asmadi. Rudy has a Fyndhorn
Elder that Chip enchanted with a Teferi's Curse, that is currently phased
out. At the beginning of Rudy's turn, Chip is at 20, and Rudy is at 5
life. Rudy began his untap phase and in response to the Elder phasing in,
he taps a City of Brass for mana.
Note that this happens before Rudy untaps during his untap phase
because phasing happens before untapping. Rudy immediately goes into a
damage prevention/redirection phase and casts an 8 point Alabaster
Potion, leaving himself 2 islands untapped. Rudy then Mana Drains his own
Alabaster Potion so that during his main phase he will have an additional
10 colorless mana. After all of this resolved, Rudy then continues with
his untap phase and untaps all his land. Chip makes Rudy walk through it
once again (very slowly), analyzing the procedure step by step, finally
agreeing that it was a legal play.
After Rudy draws his card and enters his main phase, he then casts a
twenty-one point disintegrate, tapping all of his lands and the Fyndhorn
Elder plus the mana from the Mana Drain. The look of surprise on Chip's
face when Rudy pulled this off was priceless.
After discussing this at great length (several hours) between the
bystanders AND the players, Chip comments that this entire problem would
never have arisen if WotC had never introduced the phasing section of the
untap phase.
I just say it all sucks hot buttered ass.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
'Ian' G. Sulham
Consulting page 1, Mirage Rulebook as necessary....
On Sun, 4 May 1997 way...@auburn.campus.mci.net wrote:
<snippage>
> In the finals, Rudy Edwards was playing Chip Hogan. In the third game
> Chip is beating down Rudy with a Vaevictus Asmadi. Rudy has a Fyndhorn
> Elder that Chip enchanted with a Teferi's Curse, that is currently phased
> out. At the beginning of Rudy's turn, Chip is at 20, and Rudy is at 5
> life. Rudy began his untap phase and in response to the Elder phasing in,
> he taps a City of Brass for mana.
Stop. Since when has this been legal? - 'In response to the end of my
untap phase, I'll tap all this' is wrong. Everything stems from the
question of whether or not you may tap land. <For the record, pg 8, MI
rulebook "mana sources may be played whenever you need mana to play an
effect that's legal at the time."
^^^^^
Answer to question - since Rudy can't tap land <he has no legal effect to
use> he can't get the rest of this 'combo'. The remainder of the article
is included for anyone that missed the original post.
Note that this happens before Rudy untaps during his untap phase
> because phasing happens before untapping. Rudy immediately goes into a
> damage prevention/redirection phase and casts an 8 point Alabaster
> Potion, leaving himself 2 islands untapped. Rudy then Mana Drains his own
> Alabaster Potion so that during his main phase he will have an additional
> 10 colorless mana. After all of this resolved, Rudy then continues with
> his untap phase and untaps all his land. Chip makes Rudy walk through it
> once again (very slowly), analyzing the procedure step by step, finally
> agreeing that it was a legal play.
> After Rudy draws his card and enters his main phase, he then casts a
> twenty-one point disintegrate, tapping all of his lands and the Fyndhorn
> Elder plus the mana from the Mana Drain. The look of surprise on Chip's
> face when Rudy pulled this off was priceless.
> After discussing this at great length (several hours) between the
> bystanders AND the players, Chip comments that this entire problem would
> never have arisen if WotC had never introduced the phasing section of the
> untap phase.
> I just say it all sucks hot buttered ass.
>
> -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
>
>
Matt "Ian" Sulham, red...@u.washington.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide
the bodies of those who pissed me off.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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Emailing denotes acceptance of these terms.
Ingo Warnke
'Ian' G. Sulham (red...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: > In the finals, Rudy Edwards was playing Chip Hogan. In the third game
: > Chip is beating down Rudy with a Vaevictus Asmadi. Rudy has a Fyndhorn
: > Elder that Chip enchanted with a Teferi's Curse, that is currently phased
: > out. At the beginning of Rudy's turn, Chip is at 20, and Rudy is at 5
: > life. Rudy began his untap phase and in response to the Elder phasing in,
: > he taps a City of Brass for mana.
: Stop. Since when has this been legal? - 'In response to the end of my
: untap phase, I'll tap all this' is wrong. Everything stems from the
: question of whether or not you may tap land. <For the record, pg 8, MI
: rulebook "mana sources may be played whenever you need mana to play an
: effect that's legal at the time."
This is not true. Mana sources can now always be used, no matter if you can
do something with the mana.
: > After discussing this at great length (several hours) between the
: > bystanders AND the players, Chip comments that this entire problem would
: > never have arisen if WotC had never introduced the phasing section of the
: > untap phase.
This doesn't have to do anything with the problem. The mana source could
have been played also during the untap phase or in response to the untap
effect. The 'mana sources everytime'-rule is the problem, that allows to
use lands twice per turn, with some additional help (like the Mana Drain
here, or the Sands of Time).
Ingo Warnke
Paul Barclay
way...@auburn.campus.mci.net writes:
> In the finals, Rudy Edwards was playing Chip Hogan. In the third game
>Chip is beating down Rudy with a Vaevictus Asmadi. Rudy has a Fyndhorn
>Elder that Chip enchanted with a Teferi's Curse, that is currently phased
>out. At the beginning of Rudy's turn, Chip is at 20, and Rudy is at 5
>life. Rudy began his untap phase and in response to the Elder phasing in,
>he taps a City of Brass for mana.
Note that he didn't need to do it in response - he had plenty of time to do it
before the untapping. It's nice to see players actually use the rules to their
advantage for a change.
> After discussing this at great length (several hours) between the
>bystanders AND the players, Chip comments that this entire problem would
>never have arisen if WotC had never introduced the phasing section of the
>untap phase.
Nope. It's the Mana Source rule that allows this (you've been able to do this
since Mana Sources came into being, regardless of Phasing).
Paul Barclay.
Andreas Weiss
Ingo Warnke wrote:
> : > In the finals, Rudy Edwards was playing Chip Hogan. In the third game
> : > Chip is beating down Rudy with a Vaevictus Asmadi. Rudy has a Fyndhorn
> : > Elder that Chip enchanted with a Teferi's Curse, that is currently phased
> : > out. At the beginning of Rudy's turn, Chip is at 20, and Rudy is at 5
> : > life. Rudy began his untap phase and in response to the Elder phasing in,
> : > he taps a City of Brass for mana.
>
> : untap phase, I'll tap all this' is wrong. Everything stems from the
> : question of whether or not you may tap land. <For the record, pg 8, MI
> : rulebook "mana sources may be played whenever you need mana to play an
> : effect that's legal at the time."
>
> This is not true. Mana sources can now always be used, no matter if you can
> do something with the mana.
(snip)
> This doesn't have to do anything with the problem. The mana source could
> have been played also during the untap phase or in response to the untap
> effect. The 'mana sources everytime'-rule is the problem, that allows to
> use lands twice per turn, with some additional help (like the Mana Drain
> here, or the Sands of Time).
As a side note: Mana Drain gives you the mana during your next turn's
main
phase, which was AFAIK ruled to be your next turn *after* the current
turn,
much the same as your Ivory Gargoyle, when killed during your upkeep
makes you
skip the draw phase one turn later. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
OTOH, he could have simply tapped the City during the opponent's discard
phase
to do the same trick (but that wouldn't have been as much fun as abusing
the
new untap rule, of course ;).
Andreas Weiss
Ingo Warnke
Andreas Weiss (nd...@ezinfo.vmsmail.ethz.ch) wrote:
: > This doesn't have to do anything with the problem. The mana source could
: > have been played also during the untap phase or in response to the untap
: > effect. The 'mana sources everytime'-rule is the problem, that allows to
: > use lands twice per turn, with some additional help (like the Mana Drain
: > here, or the Sands of Time).
: As a side note: Mana Drain gives you the mana during your next turn's
: main
: phase, which was AFAIK ruled to be your next turn *after* the current
: turn,
: much the same as your Ivory Gargoyle, when killed during your upkeep
: makes you
: skip the draw phase one turn later. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
I think both Mana Drain/Ivory Gargoyle work the same in this respect, but
not the way you describe it. Both cards talk about your next foo phase, not
about the foo phase of the turn after they were played. So the way it was
done is correct.
: OTOH, he could have simply tapped the City during the opponent's discard
: phase
: to do the same trick (but that wouldn't have been as much fun as abusing
: the
: new untap rule, of course ;).
He could have cast the Alabaster Potion without any damage, just in 'give
life'-mode.
Ingo Warnke
Paul Barclay
Andreas Weiss <nd...@ezinfo.vmsmail.ethz.ch> writes:
>> This doesn't have to do anything with the problem. The mana source could
>> have been played also during the untap phase or in response to the untap
>> effect. The 'mana sources everytime'-rule is the problem, that allows to
>> use lands twice per turn, with some additional help (like the Mana Drain
>> here, or the Sands of Time).
>As a side note: Mana Drain gives you the mana during your next turn's
>main
>phase, which was AFAIK ruled to be your next turn *after* the current
>turn,
>much the same as your Ivory Gargoyle, when killed during your upkeep
>makes you
>skip the draw phase one turn later. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
You're mistaken. Mana Drain says "Add {X} to your mana pool at the start of
your next Main Phase". Ivory Gargoyle says "Return Ivory Gargoyle to your
hand at the end of the turn and skip your next Draw phase". Now, in the
Gargoyle case, you may actually be correct, due to a ruling on Insidious
Bookworms. I'll ask about it.
Paul Barclay.
Tony James
'Ian' G. Sulham wrote:
>
> Consulting page 1, Mirage Rulebook as necessary....
>
> On Sun, 4 May 1997 way...@auburn.campus.mci.net wrote:
>
> <snippage>
>
> > In the finals, Rudy Edwards was playing Chip Hogan. In the third game
> > Chip is beating down Rudy with a Vaevictus Asmadi. Rudy has a Fyndhorn
> > Elder that Chip enchanted with a Teferi's Curse, that is currently phased
> > out. At the beginning of Rudy's turn, Chip is at 20, and Rudy is at 5
> > life. Rudy began his untap phase and in response to the Elder phasing in,
> > he taps a City of Brass for mana.
>
> Stop. Since when has this been legal? - 'In response to the end of my
> untap phase, I'll tap all this' is wrong. Everything stems from the
> question of whether or not you may tap land. <For the record, pg 8, MI
> rulebook "mana sources may be played whenever you need mana to play an
> effect that's legal at the time."
> ^^^^^
> Answer to question - since Rudy can't tap land <he has no legal effect to
> use> he can't get the rest of this 'combo'. The remainder of the article
> is included for anyone that missed the original post.
>
Even if he could he would have died from mana burn.
mana burn - Any leftover mana in a player's mana pool at the end of a
phase or at the beginning or end of combat is lost, and the player's
life total drops by that amount.
When he ended his untap phase, the 10 mana would have suffered a loss of
10 life.
> Note that this happens before Rudy untaps during his untap phase
> > because phasing happens before untapping. Rudy immediately goes into a
> > damage prevention/redirection phase and casts an 8 point Alabaster
> > Potion, leaving himself 2 islands untapped. Rudy then Mana Drains his own
> > Alabaster Potion so that during his main phase he will have an additional
> > 10 colorless mana. After all of this resolved, Rudy then continues with
> > his untap phase and untaps all his land. Chip makes Rudy walk through it
> > once again (very slowly), analyzing the procedure step by step, finally
> > agreeing that it was a legal play.
> > After Rudy draws his card and enters his main phase, he then casts a
> > twenty-one point disintegrate, tapping all of his lands and the Fyndhorn
> > Elder plus the mana from the Mana Drain. The look of surprise on Chip's
> > face when Rudy pulled this off was priceless.
> > After discussing this at great length (several hours) between the
> > bystanders AND the players, Chip comments that this entire problem would
> > never have arisen if WotC had never introduced the phasing section of the
> > untap phase.
> > I just say it all sucks hot buttered ass.
> >
--
Lawrence A. James ----------------------------------------
SEAS III | http://watt.seas.virginia.edu/~laj8n |
University of Virginia ----------------------------------------
Canadian
PB...@cam.ac.uk (Paul Barclay) wrote:
>> After discussing this at great length (several hours) between the
>>bystanders AND the players, Chip comments that this entire problem would
>>never have arisen if WotC had never introduced the phasing section of the
>>untap phase.
>Nope. It's the Mana Source rule that allows this (you've been able to do this
>since Mana Sources came into being, regardless of Phasing).
Fyndhorn Elder's ability is played as a mana source? If it is, woops, I
have once again proven my scrubdom =).
I need a theme song.
<funk>
Music: Wocka-chicka DUM-DUT wocka-chicka-wocka-chicka
Crowd: "He's the biggest scrub in the world!"
Me: "Ohhhh yeah! I'm huge. Word."
=)
--
Chris Foley (chr...@uniserve.com)
Erik Osterholm
Tony James <la...@virginia.edu> wrote:
>> Stop. Since when has this been legal? - 'In response to the end of my
>> untap phase, I'll tap all this' is wrong. Everything stems from the
>> question of whether or not you may tap land. <For the record, pg 8, MI
>> rulebook "mana sources may be played whenever you need mana to play an
>> effect that's legal at the time."
>> ^^^^^
>> Answer to question - since Rudy can't tap land <he has no legal effect to
>> use> he can't get the rest of this 'combo'. The remainder of the article
>> is included for anyone that missed the original post.
>>
>Even if he could he would have died from mana burn.
>mana burn - Any leftover mana in a player's mana pool at the end of a
>phase or at the beginning or end of combat is lost, and the player's
>life total drops by that amount.
>When he ended his untap phase, the 10 mana would have suffered a loss of
>10 life.
Mana Drain UU
Interrupt
Counter target spell. Add X to your mana pool at the beginning of
your next MAIN PHASE where X is the casting cost of target spell.
The mana didn't come into his pool until his main phase.
Erik Osterholm
er...@tamu.edu
http://PersonalWebs.myriad.net/erik/
http://www2.cy-net.net/~erik/
Nate Clarke
Do you people realize this post is fake as Brian Hacker's
hair color? Out of no where they decide to do a 5th/IA/Legends/Mi
draft.. Rudy and Chip come out of this draft with strong FOUR color
decks.. Not only that but Chip is lucky enough to get a Teferi's Curse!
You scrubs have all been punked by the pimp in the winnebago Rudy..
-Nate C.
The Regulator
Matt Farney
> Here's a variation of the untap phase, "tap for mana" problem that
> comes up a lot more often than the mana drain trick mentioned above.
>
> I have a mirror universe in play, I am at 10 life, and I have 1 city of
> brass and 8 land. Before they untap on my turn, I tap all of my land
> for mana. This does 8 points of mana burn and 1 point of city damage,
> taking me to 1 life. Then all my lands untap, I go to upkeep, and then
> I city/mirror for the kill.
Technically, things would happen like this:
Tap all land.
Take 1 damage from city of brass.
All lands untap
Lose 8 life from mana burn.
Same net effect, just a slightly different order. ;)
> Turn Order Rules and Rulings: Phase 0: Beginning of Turn
> + Mana sources which are used during this step do not cause mana
> burn until the end of the first phase that you play. Normally this
> is the untap phase, but if you skip your untap it could be the
> upkeep phase. [Aahz 04/07/97]
>
> Turn Order Rules and Rulings: Phase 1: Untap
> Neither player may cast spells or abilities (other than specialized
> ones) before or during the untap phase. [Mirage Page 46] Mana
> sources are legal, however. [WotC Rules Team 10/03/96] Interrupts
> to specialized spells/effects and anything that happens during
> damage prevention if damage occurs are always allowed. [D'Angelo
> 11/06/96]
>
These do prove the original combo idea was legal too.
-Matt
Canadian
way...@auburn.campus.mci.net wrote:
>Rudy began his untap phase and in response to the Elder phasing in,
>he taps a City of Brass for mana.
In response to? You mean, before it was phased in?
Bwahaha.
> I just say it all sucks hot buttered ass.
Someone does, yep.
--
Chris Foley (chr...@uniserve.com)
Mike Marcelais
> As a side note: Mana Drain gives you the mana during your next turn's
> main
> phase,
No. Mana Drain gives you mana during "your next main phase". If you haven't
gotten to your main phase yet, then it will be _this turns_ main phase.
The problem with the "combo" is the Alabaster Potion, not the use of Mana
Drain.
--
+------------------------+----------------------+
| Mike Marcelais | MS Office Developer |
| mich...@microsoft.com | and Magic Rules Guru |
+------------------------+----------------------+
| Opinions expressed in this post are mine, and |
| do not necessarily reflect those of Microsoft |
+--= Moonstone Dragon =---------------= UDIC =--+
Nafaroo, Endbringer
On Mon, 5 May 1997, Tony James wrote:
> 'Ian' G. Sulham wrote:
> >
> > Consulting page 1, Mirage Rulebook as necessary....
> >
> > On Sun, 4 May 1997 way...@auburn.campus.mci.net wrote:
> >
> > <snippage>
> >
> > > In the finals, Rudy Edwards was playing Chip Hogan. In the third game
> > > Chip is beating down Rudy with a Vaevictus Asmadi. Rudy has a Fyndhorn
> > > Elder that Chip enchanted with a Teferi's Curse, that is currently phased
> > > out. At the beginning of Rudy's turn, Chip is at 20, and Rudy is at 5
> > > life. Rudy began his untap phase and in response to the Elder phasing in,
> > > he taps a City of Brass for mana.
> >
> > Stop. Since when has this been legal? - 'In response to the end of my
> > untap phase, I'll tap all this' is wrong. Everything stems from the
> > question of whether or not you may tap land. <For the record, pg 8, MI
> > rulebook "mana sources may be played whenever you need mana to play an
> > effect that's legal at the time."
> > ^^^^^
> > Answer to question - since Rudy can't tap land <he has no legal effect to
> > use> he can't get the rest of this 'combo'. The remainder of the article
> > is included for anyone that missed the original post.
> >
>
> Even if he could he would have died from mana burn.
>
> mana burn - Any leftover mana in a player's mana pool at the end of a
> phase or at the beginning or end of combat is lost, and the player's
> life total drops by that amount.
>
> When he ended his untap phase, the 10 mana would have suffered a loss of
> 10 life.
Exactly! Why did no one mention this before? The problem is, while he
can now legally tap the mana during untap, because of the new mana source
speed, he can't do anything with it. From the 5th ed. rulebook, page 22:
"Any player can play fast effects (instants, interrupts, mana sources)
during any of these phases EXCEPT FOR UNTAP AND CLEANUP." (caps are mine)
So, I guess that he could tap the land for mana, but he would have
absolutely nothing to do with that mana except burn. The Alabaster
Potion was not legal to cast at all, nor was the Mana Drain. That's the
problem here.
We Are
## ##### ## # #
# # # # # # ## ##
# # # # # # # ## #
###### # # ###### # #
# # # # # # # #
# # ##### # # # #
Third of Five
Mike Marcelais
way...@auburn.campus.mci.net wrote in article
<8627911...@dejanews.com>...
> I was hanging out at the Warzone Saturday night after the ptq. Rudy
> Edwards, Chip Hogan, Aziz Al-doory, Shay Hall, Josh Bradford, Scott
> Reinfeld,Brian Engle,And myself, Will Ayers played in a non-sanctioned
> 5th/Mirage/Italian Legends booster draft. I, being a relative newcomer to
> the big leagues, drafted like a little girl with sand in her panties,
> ended up with 4 creatures and an x spell, and little else. I get my
> panties whooped when little weenie hordes tear me a new orifice, by Shay
> Hall who drafted 2 Hecatombs, a Blanket of Night, and a Kormus Bell.
> Chip is beating down Rudy with a Vaevictus Asmadi. Rudy has a Fyndhorn
> Elder that Chip enchanted with a Teferi's Curse, that is currently phased
> out. At the beginning of Rudy's turn, Chip is at 20, and Rudy is at 5
> life. Rudy began his untap phase and in response to the Elder phasing in,
> he taps a City of Brass for mana.
> because phasing happens before untapping. Rudy immediately goes into a
> damage prevention/redirection phase and casts an 8 point Alabaster
> Potion, leaving himself 2 islands untapped.
This is illegal. Where are the 8 points of damage being prevented?
Alabaster Potion targets damage (when used to prevent damage -- it cannot be
used to gain life during a damage prevention phase). Since there is only 1
point of damage pending, the most that X could be in the Potion is 1.
> Rudy then Mana Drains his own
> Alabaster Potion so that during his main phase he will have an additional
> 10 colorless mana. After all of this resolved, Rudy then continues with
> his untap phase and untaps all his land.
[and taking 1 point of Brass damage and losing 7 life from Mana Burn from the
leftover Alabaster Potion mana]
> Chip makes Rudy walk through it
> once again (very slowly), analyzing the procedure step by step, finally
> agreeing that it was a legal play.
He wuz wrong. The attempted casting of the Potion was illegal. Aside from
that it was fine and if there was 8 points of pending damage around, then
everything would have been legal (except that Rudy would have died).
> After Rudy draws his card and enters his main phase, he then casts a
> twenty-one point disintegrate, tapping all of his lands and the Fyndhorn
> Elder plus the mana from the Mana Drain. The look of surprise on Chip's
> face when Rudy pulled this off was priceless.
> After discussing this at great length (several hours) between the
> bystanders AND the players, Chip comments that this entire problem would
> never have arisen if WotC had never introduced the phasing section of the
> untap phase.
No; with or without phasing, it is legal to use mana sources during untap
(both before and after the "normal" untap). Having Phasing doesn't fix this.
Mike Marcelais
> straight from 5th edition rulebook (page 22)
> "Either player can play fast effects (instants, interrupts, and mana
> sources) during any of these phases except for untap and cleanup."
>
> So tapping of a land for mana is NOT allowed at all.
Mana sources can be used _at any time_; even when using an effect is normally
illegal. The problem with the combo (and the only one that I see) is the use
of Alabaster Potion.
Paul van Gool
way...@auburn.campus.mci.net wrote:
> In the finals, Rudy Edwards was playing Chip Hogan. In the third game
>Chip is beating down Rudy with a Vaevictus Asmadi. Rudy has a Fyndhorn
>Elder that Chip enchanted with a Teferi's Curse, that is currently phased
>out. At the beginning of Rudy's turn, Chip is at 20, and Rudy is at 5
>life. Rudy began his untap phase and in response to the Elder phasing in,
>he taps a City of Brass for mana.
Rudy should have known the rules. And I am sure he does. I am just
surprised he could trich people like Chip.
straight from 5th edition rulebook (page 22)
"Either player can play fast effects (instants, interrupts, and mana
sources) during any of these phases except for untap and cleanup."
So tapping of a land for mana is NOT allowed at all.
If you want to play at PT level first learn the basic rules. And than
learn all the ways people will missuse them just to win.
> Note that this happens before Rudy untaps during his untap phase
>because phasing happens before untapping. Rudy immediately goes into a
>damage prevention/redirection phase and casts an 8 point Alabaster
>Potion, leaving himself 2 islands untapped. Rudy then Mana Drains his own
>Alabaster Potion so that during his main phase he will have an additional
>10 colorless mana. After all of this resolved, Rudy then continues with
>his untap phase and untaps all his land. Chip makes Rudy walk through it
>once again (very slowly), analyzing the procedure step by step, finally
>agreeing that it was a legal play.
> After Rudy draws his card and enters his main phase, he then casts a
>twenty-one point disintegrate, tapping all of his lands and the Fyndhorn
>Elder plus the mana from the Mana Drain. The look of surprise on Chip's
>face when Rudy pulled this off was priceless.
> After discussing this at great length (several hours) between the
>bystanders AND the players, Chip comments that this entire problem would
>never have arisen if WotC had never introduced the phasing section of the
>untap phase.
Eric Taylor
way...@auburn.campus.mci.net wrote:
: life. Rudy began his untap phase and in response to the Elder phasing in,
: he taps a City of Brass for mana.
I don't think it is quite accurate to say you are really tapping the
city "in response" to the elder phasing in, which implies you are
starting a new spell stack. You're just tapping a land for mana.
Because there exists some time before things actually uptap, I would
imagine that you can do this tap the city of brass/damage prevent/mana
drain trick even if there were no elder phasing in. The reason a trick
like this works is that you can tap for mana at any time. The issue
has relatively little or nothing to do with phasing like Chip Hogan was
quoted as whining about. It's all about when you can make mana. The
mirage rulebook, p.8 about it having to be "legal at the time" I am
pretty sure is wrong - you never need a reason or an explanation to
make mana.
My favorite variation of the "tap for mana at any time" trick is to
make a creature blink during damage prevention.
If you have a mishra factory, you can block a bear, kill the bear, go
to damage prevention, and if you have a storm cauldron in play, you can
tap the mishra for mana, make it blink into your hand and it lives.
That's more than blinkie can do.
Here's a variation of the untap phase, "tap for mana" problem that
comes up a lot more often than the mana drain trick mentioned above.
I have a mirror universe in play, I am at 10 life, and I have 1 city of
brass and 8 land. Before they untap on my turn, I tap all of my land
for mana. This does 8 points of mana burn and 1 point of city damage,
taking me to 1 life. Then all my lands untap, I go to upkeep, and then
I city/mirror for the kill.
It's best not to have to use these tricks in a game, because it's
difficult to convince that judge that it is legal, let alone your
opponent. There's something very fishy about the whole thing.
I'm not a judge of any kind, so please if I have made any mistakes in
my interpretation of the rules, please correct me.
Here are a couple of somewhat pertinent rulings about the subject:
David K. Lewis
In article <5kl5i6$il3$4...@neptune.uniserve.com>, chr...@uniserve.com (Canadian) writes:
>
> PB...@cam.ac.uk (Paul Barclay) wrote:
> >Nope. It's the Mana Source rule that allows this (you've been able to do this
> >since Mana Sources came into being, regardless of Phasing).
>
> Fyndhorn Elder's ability is played as a mana source? If it is, woops, I
> have once again proven my scrubdom =).
It is.
Dave
Frank Kim
As some people have noted, tapping land during the untap phase
may not be legal, but how about this:
1) Have Phrexian Warbeast in play.
2) Phase in that blue creature which phases out another creature.
3) Target Warbeast leaves play, causing you 1 point of damage.
4) Enter damage prevention phase.
5) Continue as below...
way...@auburn.campus.mci.net wrote in article
<8627911...@dejanews.com>...
....
Walter Goodwin
In article <5kld03$s...@news.IAEhv.nl>, Paul van Gool <pvg...@iaehv.nl> wrote:
>Rudy should have known the rules. And I am sure he does. I am just
>surprised he could trich people like Chip.
>straight from 5th edition rulebook (page 22)
>"Either player can play fast effects (instants, interrupts, and mana
>sources) during any of these phases except for untap and cleanup."
And the 5'th rule book explicitly states in the beginning that certain
rules may be misrepresented for simplicity, so what's your point? looking
through the old threads, it is quite permissible to use mana sources during
the untap phase, and once the city of brass does damage, a DP step happens.
Once a DP step happens, damage prevention spells become legal, once DP
spells become legal, interrupts to those spells become legal. So now
we have shown that that rule you quoted has exceptions, wow, big surprise.
Now, here's the problem, Alabaster Potion is legal during a DP step
only when it is preventing damage, And, since the latest version (ack,
I think the latest version says this, I could be wrong) says prevent
X damage (not up to X damage) it must have X points of damage to target,
this means he could have spent 3 on it. Casting it to gain life isn't
legal during a DP step. Therefore, it shouldn't have happened, but for
a very different reason. (but it could've worked out if he'd done something
different that was legal.)
Ingo Warnke
Nafaroo, Endbringer (aret...@students.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: Exactly! Why did no one mention this before? The problem is, while he
: can now legally tap the mana during untap, because of the new mana source
: speed, he can't do anything with it. From the 5th ed. rulebook, page 22:
: "Any player can play fast effects (instants, interrupts, mana sources)
: during any of these phases EXCEPT FOR UNTAP AND CLEANUP." (caps are mine)
5th ed. rulebook, page 43:
"You may play mana sources whenever you have priority to play any kind of spell
or ability, including times such as the untap phase ..."
As said in the beginning of the rulebook, the first section can have slight
inaccurancies.
: So, I guess that he could tap the land for mana, but he would have
: absolutely nothing to do with that mana except burn. The Alabaster
: Potion was not legal to cast at all, nor was the Mana Drain. That's the
: problem here.
Why was the Alabaster Potion illegal? There was a damage prevention step!
Ingo Warnke
Ingo Warnke
Paul van Gool (pvg...@iaehv.nl) wrote:
: straight from 5th edition rulebook (page 22)
: "Either player can play fast effects (instants, interrupts, and mana
: sources) during any of these phases except for untap and cleanup."
: So tapping of a land for mana is NOT allowed at all.
Please look at page 43 of the rulebook, the first sentence in the mana source
section states that mana sources can be played during the untap effect.
If you are irritated why the rulebook contradicts itself, read page 2, there
it tells you that section 2 will sometimes make little errors in section 1.
IMHO it is bad to have the term fast effect include interrupts and mana sources
because the timing rules for those are now substantially different. They have
little in common.
: If you want to play at PT level first learn the basic rules. And than
: learn all the ways people will missuse them just to win.
Good advice :-)
Ingo Warnke
Brian Engle
I agree with the things Eric Taylor wrote in this post, but am replying
to clarify a few of the things in the original post that could be
misinterpreted. BTW, I am Shay Hall (using my friend Brian Engle's
e-mail account b/c my server is having problems right now) and if you
want to reply to me, my e-mail address is hal...@mail.auburn.edu. I
played in the booster draft where this took place and was there arguing
about the implications of breaking the untap phase afterwards. Also, for
the people posting 'This doesn't work!', the original intent of the post
was *not* 'Does this work?'. It's not like the people involved don't
know magic. I'm 99% sure that Rudy and Chip ran it by David (Doust) when
it happened, too. Now to Mr. Taylor's post:
Eric Taylor wrote:
>
> way...@auburn.campus.mci.net wrote:
> : life. Rudy began his untap phase and in response to the Elder phasing in,
> : he taps a City of Brass for mana.
>
> I don't think it is quite accurate to say you are really tapping the
> city "in response" to the elder phasing in, which implies you are
> starting a new spell stack. You're just tapping a land for mana.
>
> Because there exists some time before things actually uptap, I would
> imagine that you can do this tap the city of brass/damage prevent/mana
> drain trick even if there were no elder phasing in.
Absolutely. I was with Will Ayers when we posted the original. That fact
was never in question, and was mentioned only because Rudy needed the
extra mana from the Fyndhorn Elder to power up his fireball enough to
defeat Chip. This incidentally is why Rudy thought about doing all this
during untap anyway. If he didn't need th Elder's mana, he could have
done all this during Chip's cleanup or discard phase.
> The issue
> has relatively little or nothing to do with phasing like Chip Hogan was
> quoted as whining about.
Excuse me- we went to great lengths (we thought...) when posting to
point out that Chip never whined about anything. It took us all a while
to rationalize what was going on at first, but Chip actually accepted
the legality of the play more quickly than most of us did. Chip is a
swell guy. The play was pretty spectacular, and we all realized that.
Chip gracefully accepted it. It was a close match and the cards in the
draft weren't much of a big deal to any of us. I think the MD was the
only really impressive card in a draft featuring unusually sub-omptimal
cards.
> Here's a variation of the untap phase, "tap for mana" problem that
> comes up a lot more often than the mana drain trick mentioned above.
Um, not to nitpick, but I think there took a great cosmic aligning of
nature to let this come up at all. I doubt there will ever be another
chance to duplicate this in an actual game. Usually, there is a better
play or more efficient way of getting the job done. In this case, Rudy
was pinned down if he didn't come up with a way to kill Chip... kind of
like a Rosewater puzzle. Just gaining life from the potion wouldn't have
even stalled long enough to draw another card. Also, Fireballing the
Dragon wouldn't have accomplished much either. Chip was in a much more
favorable creature situation defensively (I think he had Uncle Istvan
and a Wall of Air if memory serves and a COP:White, white being the
majority of Rudy's evasive creatures and offense) and the XBall was
about the only way Rudy was going to get through.
Well, that was very longwinded, and I'm sorry. One question I would like
to pose to the NG, though: Should WotC add a phase before untap
specifically to deal with phasing creatures? This might also eliminate
some of the confusion about leaving/returning to play questions and
corner cases.
Also, BTW, Chip and I were pondering this, and maybe there is a simple
explanation that we missed. We didn't have a rulebook handy to look it
up, either. Let's say I have an Erhnam out. My opponent Lightning Bolts
the Ehrnam. The LB resolves. Then my opponent LBs the Ehrnam a second
time, and I respond by Reality Rippling my Ehrnam. The second bolt
fizzles, but Ehrnam is not in play for Cleanup/Heal, so does he phase in
with 3 damage on him? Common sense says no. Is it spelled out somewhere
that Heal Creatures affects creatures that are out of play, or that
phasing in/out removes accumulated damage?
Shaybo
Ingo Warnke
Walter Goodwin (wgoo...@expert.cc.purdue.edu) wrote:
: Now, here's the problem, Alabaster Potion is legal during a DP step
: only when it is preventing damage, And, since the latest version (ack,
: I think the latest version says this, I could be wrong) says prevent
: X damage (not up to X damage) it must have X points of damage to target,
No. It targets *packets* of damage, not individual points. The Alabaster
potion had one target, the packet of damage created by the City. It is
legal to cast an 8 point Alabaster Potion on it just as it legal to use a
Millstone on a 1 card library.
Ingo Warnke
Ingo Warnke
Mike Marcelais (mich...@microsoft.com) wrote:
: > because phasing happens before untapping. Rudy immediately goes into a
: > damage prevention/redirection phase and casts an 8 point Alabaster
: > Potion, leaving himself 2 islands untapped.
: This is illegal. Where are the 8 points of damage being prevented?
: Alabaster Potion targets damage (when used to prevent damage -- it cannot be
: used to gain life during a damage prevention phase). Since there is only 1
: point of damage pending, the most that X could be in the Potion is 1.
DP spells target packets of damage, not individual points of damage. So it is
legal to target a 1 point packet with an 8 point Alabaster Potion.
D'Angelo says about this:
You can always try to prevent more damage than is there, but you can't use
a damage prevention spell/ability at all unless there is at least one
packet. [Aahz 09/24/96]
Ingo Warnke
Walter Goodwin
In article <336ee...@info4.uni-rostock.de>,
Ingo Warnke <nfa...@hp1.uni-rostock.de> wrote:
>No. It targets *packets* of damage, not individual points. The Alabaster
>potion had one target, the packet of damage created by the City. It is
>legal to cast an 8 point Alabaster Potion on it just as it legal to use a
>Millstone on a 1 card library.
Careful, the potion says it prevents X points of damage to target creature
or player, it goes beyond just simple packet targetting because it doesn't
care about sources, and can prevent damage coming from various sources, but
I digress. The potion NEEDS X damage to be cast, whether it "targets" the
damage is academic. The millstone is a bad example because it doesn't
matter how many cards are on the library, because it can't possibly know how
many cards are going to be there until it resolves. IF the millstone removed
2 "target cards" then you'd need at least 2 cards in the library to use it in
the same way that you need 2 creatures to cast ashes to ashes, or need X
additional targets beyond the first when spending the extra mana on a fireball.
The heart of the combo was sound, but its implementation was found lacking.
(and he couldn't have done this at the end of the other player's turn?!?)
Ingo Warnke
Frank Kim (fk...@promis.com) wrote:
: As some people have noted, tapping land during the untap phase
: may not be legal, but how about this:
It is legal.
: 1) Have Phrexian Warbeast in play.
: 2) Phase in that blue creature which phases out another creature.
: 3) Target Warbeast leaves play, causing you 1 point of damage.
: 4) Enter damage prevention phase.
: 5) Continue as below...
This also works.
Ingo Warnke
Paul Barclay
>It is legal.
>This also works.
Except for the fact that the Warbeast causes loss of life. Substitute a
Floodgate and a non-blue creature, and you'll be fine.
Paul Barclay.
Ingo Warnke
Walter Goodwin (wgoo...@expert.cc.purdue.edu) wrote:
: >No. It targets *packets* of damage, not individual points. The Alabaster
: >potion had one target, the packet of damage created by the City. It is
: >legal to cast an 8 point Alabaster Potion on it just as it legal to use a
: >Millstone on a 1 card library.
: Careful, the potion says it prevents X points of damage to target creature
: or player, it goes beyond just simple packet targetting because it doesn't
: care about sources, and can prevent damage coming from various sources, but
: I digress. The potion NEEDS X damage to be cast, whether it "targets" the
: damage is academic.
No, this very example shows that it is *not* academic. The target of the Potion
is a packet of damage. That is the only thing that is checked for legality.
There is no requirement that the packet must contain at least a certain number
of damage points.
: The millstone is a bad example because it doesn't
: matter how many cards are on the library, because it can't possibly know how
: many cards are going to be there until it resolves.
Correct, please apply the same logic to Alabaster Potion. It doesn't care
what is in a packet of damage until it resolves.
: IF the millstone removed
: 2 "target cards" then you'd need at least 2 cards in the library to use it
Very true. But, as written, Millstone's ability targets a player and it is
completely uninteresting what is in that players library until the effect re-
solves. The exact same logic applies to Alabaster Potion; it targets a packet
of damage and it is completely uninteresting what is in that packet until
the spell resolves.
Ingo Warnke
mark balabon
Mike Marcelais (mich...@microsoft.com) wrote:
: > straight from 5th edition rulebook (page 22)
: > "Either player can play fast effects (instants, interrupts, and mana
: > sources) during any of these phases except for untap and cleanup."
: >
: > So tapping of a land for mana is NOT allowed at all.
: Mana sources can be used _at any time_; even when using an effect is normally
: illegal. The problem with the combo (and the only one that I see) is the use
: of Alabaster Potion.
Mike-
I'll agree that the alabaster potion is a problem. My question is
why the mana drain isn't just as problematic? My understanding was that
no effects (or spells) were legal during the untap phase. Granted, the
rule doesn't apply to mana sources, but wouldn't it also apply to the mana
drain? (I know - if he couldn't cast the potion, he couldn't drain it. I'm
just trying to make sure I have the rules right & he couldn't cast the
drain either).
Bally
Paul Barclay
wgoo...@expert.cc.purdue.edu (Walter Goodwin) writes:
>In article <336ee...@info4.uni-rostock.de>,
>Ingo Warnke <nfa...@hp1.uni-rostock.de> wrote:
>>No. It targets *packets* of damage, not individual points. The Alabaster
>>potion had one target, the packet of damage created by the City. It is
>>legal to cast an 8 point Alabaster Potion on it just as it legal to use a
>>Millstone on a 1 card library.
>Careful, the potion says it prevents X points of damage to target creature
>or player, it goes beyond just simple packet targetting because it doesn't
>care about sources, and can prevent damage coming from various sources, but
>I digress. The potion NEEDS X damage to be cast, whether it "targets" the
>damage is academic. The millstone is a bad example because it doesn't
>matter how many cards are on the library, because it can't possibly know how
>many cards are going to be there until it resolves.
And the Potion does? It still resolves LIFO. Since it doesn't target the
actual damage, it will never, ever, check to see that there is "enough" damage
in the packet for it to prevent. It doesn't care how much there is, it will
just prevent X points of it, in exactly the same way that a Disintegrate
doesn't care what the toughness of a creature is, it just deals X damage to
it. Ingo knows what he's talking about.
>IF the millstone removed
>2 "target cards" then you'd need at least 2 cards in the library to use it in
>the same way that you need 2 creatures to cast ashes to ashes, or need X
>additional targets beyond the first when spending the extra mana on a fireball.
Except that Damage Prevention effects _only_ target packets of damage, and can
target any number of packets of damage (under the same restrictions as stuff
like Contagion). Alabaster Potion doesn't say "Prevent X target points of
damage", it says "Prevent X damage". Your last 2 examples each rely on the
card having more than 1 target, which isn't the case here.
>The heart of the combo was sound, but its implementation was found lacking.
>(and he couldn't have done this at the end of the other player's turn?!?)
It wouldn't have been nearly as much fun.
Paul Barclay.
WiSK and Michelle
Brian Engle wrote:
> Also, BTW, Chip and I were pondering this, and maybe there is a simple
> explanation that we missed. We didn't have a rulebook handy to look it
> up, either. Let's say I have an Erhnam out. My opponent Lightning Bolts
> the Ehrnam. The LB resolves. Then my opponent LBs the Ehrnam a second
> time, and I respond by Reality Rippling my Ehrnam. The second bolt
> fizzles, but Ehrnam is not in play for Cleanup/Heal, so does he phase in
> with 3 damage on him? Common sense says no. Is it spelled out somewhere
> that Heal Creatures affects creatures that are out of play, or that
> phasing in/out removes accumulated damage?
Mirage rulebook (page 1) regarding phasing out:
"... Otherwise, all effects that depend on the permanent being in
play or that apply to it while it's in play end immediately. All
damage on it is removed, and because it's considered out of play,
any effects scheduled to affect it at end of turn are ignored."
WiSK.
--
+-------------------+----------------------------------------+
| WiSK and Michelle | Check our Microprose Magic bug list at |
| b...@xs4all.nl | http://www.xs4all.nl/~bpm/mtgbugs.html |
+-------------------+----------------------------------------+
City Hunter
> If you have a mishra factory, you can block a bear, kill the bear, go
> to damage prevention, and if you have a storm cauldron in play, you can
> tap the mishra for mana, make it blink into your hand and it lives.
> That's more than blinkie can do.
Um, a Mishras Factory can't tap for mana when it is a creature, read the
card.
Hoftyzer John T
Frank Kim (fk...@promis.com) wrote:
: As some people have noted, tapping land during the untap phase
: may not be legal, but how about this:
[SNIP]
Actually it is legal. You can play a manasource at any time another
effect is taking place. If something phased in or out, mana sources are
legal. There is even a point when you can tap for mana outside all
phases. Ifyou have a Sands of Time in play, it takes place before the
untap phase, right before it happens, you can tap all your land for mana,
then the Sands will untap it, then it all carries over into your upkeep.
Neat trick thanks to the cool Mana Source rulings.
John
Jim Hamp
The card doesn't say that. It says it can't tap for mana *if it's just
come into play this turn*, a reminder that as a creature it has summoning
sickness and can't use abilities that require tapping.
Hope this helps
Hampster
Steven Lee
Shay Hall wrote:
> Also, BTW, Chip and I were pondering this, and maybe there is a simple
> explanation that we missed. We didn't have a rulebook handy to look it
> up, either. Let's say I have an Erhnam out. My opponent Lightning Bolts
> the Ehrnam. The LB resolves. Then my opponent LBs the Ehrnam a second
> time, and I respond by Reality Rippling my Ehrnam. The second bolt
> fizzles, but Ehrnam is not in play for Cleanup/Heal, so does he phase in
> with 3 damage on him? Common sense says no. Is it spelled out somewhere
> that Heal Creatures affects creatures that are out of play, or that
> phasing in/out removes accumulated damage?
Damage is a temporary condition, and so disappears as soon as the the
creature phases out. It's still gone even if the creature phases
back in the same turn.
from the Mirage booklet (p.1) on phasing a permanent:
"All damage on it is removed, ...."
--steven
Kyle Nishioka
mark balabon (bala...@bu.edu) wrote:
: I'll agree that the alabaster potion is a problem. My question is
: why the mana drain isn't just as problematic? My understanding was that
: no effects (or spells) were legal during the untap phase. Granted, the
: rule doesn't apply to mana sources, but wouldn't it also apply to the mana
: drain? (I know - if he couldn't cast the potion, he couldn't drain it. I'm
: just trying to make sure I have the rules right & he couldn't cast the
: drain either).
The rules for interrupts have changed a bit as well. They may be played
at any time they become necessary. So, when the Potion is cast, the Mana
Drain becomes legal to cast because the Potion's interrupt window makes
interrupts legal.
About the Potion being legal in the first place, I'm pretty sure that it
is legal to cast the Potion for 8 even though there is only 1 pt of damage
in the packet. The choice of X is not a targetting decision, just the
packet(s). And there is no limit as to how much damage you can prevent
from a single packet.
--
Kyle
nk...@hawaii.edu
#include <std_disclaimer.h>
#include <blue_ribbon>
mcc...@wku.edu
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.970505...@ux9.cso.uiuc.edu>, "Nafaroo, Endbringer" <aret...@students.uiuc.edu> writes:
>> > Answer to question - since Rudy can't tap land <he has no legal effect to
>> > use> he can't get the rest of this 'combo'. The remainder of the article
>> > is included for anyone that missed the original post.
>> >
>>
>> Even if he could he would have died from mana burn.
>>
>> mana burn - Any leftover mana in a player's mana pool at the end of a
>> phase or at the beginning or end of combat is lost, and the player's
>> life total drops by that amount.
>>
>> When he ended his untap phase, the 10 mana would have suffered a loss of
>> 10 life.
>
> can now legally tap the mana during untap, because of the new mana source
> speed, he can't do anything with it. From the 5th ed. rulebook, page 22:
>
>
> absolutely nothing to do with that mana except burn. The Alabaster
> Potion was not legal to cast at all, nor was the Mana Drain. That's the
> problem here.
Here's why no one mentioned this before: BOTH spells WERE legal. Did you both
totally miss the part about City of Brass??? There was a damage prevention step
created DURING untap which allows damage prevention spells (such as Alabaster
Potion) to be cast. These spells are fully capable of being countered (by spells
such as Mana Drain.)
He has no mana in his pool at the end of untap, therefore takes no burn. This
was a legal play by the current rules. Read more.
--
____________________________________________________________________________
| | |
| Jason McCoy | Visit the Nexus! |
| of | You can find us on the Web at: |
| Team Nexus | http://www.mindspring.com/~thenexus/index.htm |
|______________________|_____________________________________________________|
Paul van Gool
"Mike Marcelais" <mich...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>> straight from 5th edition rulebook (page 22)
>> "Either player can play fast effects (instants, interrupts, and mana
>> sources) during any of these phases except for untap and cleanup."
>>
>> So tapping of a land for mana is NOT allowed at all.
>Mana sources can be used _at any time_; even when using an effect is normally
>illegal.
OK, tell me were and in which rule this is written down.
As far as I know nowwhere.
>The problem with the combo (and the only one that I see) is the use
>of Alabaster Potion.
Ofcourse casting the Potion or Mana Draining it are also both illegal
during untap phase.
sj...@lehigh.edu
Cool? I'll agree that it might be intellectually interesting, but it is NOT a
good rule. Any rule you cannot easily explain to a 10 year old is a bad
rule. I would never want to have to try to explain this to a judge or even
worse, my opponent in a tournament. The guy would probably never believe
me, even though I'd be right, and I wouldn't blame him because it goes
against everything we're accustomed to in the rules. This "mana sources
can be played anytime" rule has caused at least as much confusion as it has
solved. What is wrong with saying they cannot be played during the untap
phase? Then we aren't having silly obscure rules discussions like this one.
Robert Hubby
Erik Osterholm (er...@tamu.edu) wrote:
: Mana Drain UU
Correction: 1U is the casting cost.
: Interrupt
: Counter target spell. Add X to your mana pool at the beginning of
: your next MAIN PHASE where X is the casting cost of target spell.
:
: The mana didn't come into his pool until his main phase.
: Erik Osterholm
: er...@tamu.edu
: http://PersonalWebs.myriad.net/erik/
: http://www2.cy-net.net/~erik/
:
David Gude
mark balabon wrote:
>
> Mike Marcelais (mich...@microsoft.com) wrote:
> : > straight from 5th edition rulebook (page 22)
> : > "Either player can play fast effects (instants, interrupts, and mana
> : > sources) during any of these phases except for untap and cleanup."
> : >
> : > So tapping of a land for mana is NOT allowed at all.
>
> : Mana sources can be used _at any time_; even when using an effect is normally
> : of Alabaster Potion.
>
> Mike-
>
> I'll agree that the alabaster potion is a problem. My question is
> why the mana drain isn't just as problematic? My understanding was that
> no effects (or spells) were legal during the untap phase. Granted, the
> rule doesn't apply to mana sources, but wouldn't it also apply to the mana
> drain? (I know - if he couldn't cast the potion, he couldn't drain it. I'm
> just trying to make sure I have the rules right & he couldn't cast the
> drain either).
>
I don't care if everything is phased out, you CAN NOT, I repeat can not
cast spells during in response too, or anything else having to do with
untap. You must wait until upkeep.
Bennie
Hasn't anyone just posed the question to WotC? They could settle this
question... seems to be a hair-splitting quandrey that Mr. Wylie
should weigh in on.
--
--Bennie, Richmond Task Mages
"I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything as
a career. I don't want to sell anything sold or processed, or process
anything sold, bought or processed, or process anything sold, bought
or processed. Or repair anything sold, bought, or processed, you
know, as a career."
Mike Marcelais
Ingo Warnke <nfa...@hp1.uni-rostock.de> wrote in article
<336ee...@info4.uni-rostock.de>...
Eh...this conflicts with how other targetted stuff has been ruled to work.
After all, I can't cast Ashes to Ashes at one critter because there aren't
two critters around (but there IS 1). Why should damage prevention be any
different?
[Note that most D/P spells like Healing Salve say "prevent _up to_ 3 damage"
so they can be aimed at anything you want, but Alabaster Potion says "prevent
X damage" exactly. If there isn't X damage, it cannot be used with that X.
Guardian Angel works the same way.]
--
+------------------------+----------------------+
| Mike Marcelais | MS Office Developer |
| mich...@microsoft.com | and Magic Rules Guru |
+------------------------+----------------------+
| Opinions expressed in this post are mine, and |
| do not necessarily reflect those of Microsoft |
+--= Moonstone Dragon =---------------= UDIC =--+
Trevor Holness
Robert Hubby wrote:
> : Mana Drain UU
>
> Correction: 1U is the casting cost.
Since when is Mana Drain U1 to cast? Unless I missed something HUGE, I
was always under the impression that it was UU
David DeLaney
nfa...@hp1.uni-rostock.de (Ingo Warnke) writes:
>Andreas Weiss (nd...@ezinfo.vmsmail.ethz.ch) wrote:
>: As a side note: Mana Drain gives you the mana during your next turn's main
>: phase, which was AFAIK ruled to be your next turn *after* the current turn,
>: much the same as your Ivory Gargoyle, when killed during your upkeep makes you
>: skip the draw phase one turn later. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
>
>I think both Mana Drain/Ivory Gargoyle work the same in this respect, but
>not the way you describe it. Both cards talk about your next foo phase, not
>about the foo phase of the turn after they were played. So the way it was
>done is correct.
"At the beginning of your next main phase" is Mana Drain's wording, and it
means it; if you Mana Drain something during your turn's untap, upkeep, or
draw phase, you get the mana during that same turn's main phase.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
"'Ian' G. Sulham" <red...@u.washington.edu> writes:
>Stop. Since when has this been legal? - 'In response to the end of my
>untap phase, I'll tap all this' is wrong.
Um, Ian: phasing in is done at the _start_ of the untap phase. And mana
sources are legal to use during untap phase, or indeed during any phase;
they are not bound by the limits on general fast effects.
David DeLaney
way...@auburn.campus.mci.net writes:
>Rudy began his untap phase and in response to the Elder phasing in,
>he taps a City of Brass for mana.
>because phasing happens before untapping. Rudy immediately goes into a
>damage prevention/redirection phase and casts an 8 point Alabaster
>Alabaster Potion so that during his main phase he will have an additional
>10 colorless mana. After all of this resolved, Rudy then continues with
>his untap phase and untaps all his land. Chip makes Rudy walk through it
>once again (very slowly), analyzing the procedure step by step, finally
>agreeing that it was a legal play.
As stated, this is all legal.
Dave "Cheesy, yes. But legal." DeLaney
David DeLaney
pvg...@iaehv.nl (Paul van Gool) writes:
>"Mike Marcelais" <mich...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>Mana sources can be used _at any time_; even when using an effect is normally
>>illegal.
Page 43, 5E rulebook. Page 8, Mirage rulebook.
>Ofcourse casting the Potion or Mana Draining it are also both illegal
>during untap phase.
Nope. Casting the Potion in damage prevention mode is legal any time there
is damage done and a damage-prevention step is going on; any spell can be
interrupted, so any spell can be Mana Drained.
Dave
David DeLaney
"Nafaroo, Endbringer" <aret...@students.uiuc.edu> writes:
>Exactly! Why did no one mention this before? The problem is, while he
>can now legally tap the mana during untap, because of the new mana source
>speed, he can't do anything with it.
>absolutely nothing to do with that mana except burn. The Alabaster
>Potion was not legal to cast at all, nor was the Mana Drain. That's the
>problem here.
Nope. This all started with the player tapping a _City of Brass_. That,
during untap phase, produced the triggered effect of the player taking
one damage; this in turn, still during untap phase, set off a damage prevention
step, in which the Alabaster Potion was legal to cast in damage-prevention mode.
[Not in gain-life mode, of course.]
David DeLaney
bala...@bu.edu (mark balabon) writes:
> I'll agree that the alabaster potion is a problem. My question is
>why the mana drain isn't just as problematic? My understanding was that
>no effects (or spells) were legal during the untap phase. Granted, the
>rule doesn't apply to mana sources, but wouldn't it also apply to the mana
>drain?
Nope. Interrupts have permission to be used any time a spell or ability is
in its interrupt window; mana sources have blanket permission to be used;
triggered effects will be triggered any time the appropriate scenario happens,
and specialized effects may be used any time the appropriate scenario occurs.
David DeLaney
City Hunter <ryan....@resnet.ucsb.edu> writes:
>> If you have a mishra factory, you can block a bear, kill the bear, go
>> to damage prevention, and if you have a storm cauldron in play, you can
>> tap the mishra for mana, make it blink into your hand and it lives.
>> That's more than blinkie can do.
>
>Um, a Mishras Factory can't tap for mana when it is a creature, read the
>card.
You read the card, Ryan.
"Assembly Worker still counts as a land but cannot be tapped for mana the turn
it comes into play."
Nothing there about "Assembly Worker cannot be tapped for mana for any reason".
Alex Rhomberg
> Um, not to nitpick, but I think there took a great cosmic aligning of
> nature to let this come up at all.
Yeah, obviously
> (I think he [Chip] had Uncle Istvan
> and a Wall of Air if memory serves and a COP:White
That must have been a great drafted deck chip had: GGRRBB for Vaevictis,
BBB for the Uncle, UU for the Wall and W for the CoP. Did he play with
all duals/City and Paradise?
Do any other troll bells finally ring?
--
_________________________________________________________________
/ \
| Alex Rhomberg Tel: +41 1 632 49 18 |
| Institut fuer Elektronik Fax: +41 1 632 12 10 |
| ETH Zuerich Zentrale: +41 1 632 11 11 |
| Gloriastrasse 35 |
| 8092 Zuerich email: rhom...@ife.ee.ethz.ch |
\_________________________________________________________________/
sj...@lehigh.edu
In <5koda4$9...@bolt.sonic.net>, rah...@sonic.net (Robert Hubby) writes:
Not on any Mana Drain I've ever seen.
Erik Osterholm
City Hunter <ryan....@resnet.ucsb.edu> wrote:
>> If you have a mishra factory, you can block a bear, kill the bear, go
>> to damage prevention, and if you have a storm cauldron in play, you can
>> tap the mishra for mana, make it blink into your hand and it lives.
>> That's more than blinkie can do.
>Um, a Mishras Factory can't tap for mana when it is a creature, read the
>card.
I am reading it. It doesn't say that anywhere on it. You go read the
card. It still counts as a land. It cannot tap for mana if it has
summoning sickness, but that only happens the first turn that the CARD
is in play.
Ingo Warnke
Mike Marcelais (mich...@microsoft.com) wrote:
: Eh...this conflicts with how other targetted stuff has been ruled to work.
: After all, I can't cast Ashes to Ashes at one critter because there aren't
: two critters around (but there IS 1). Why should damage prevention be any
: different?
This is no contradiction. The Alabaster Potion had 1 target, the packet of
damage containg the damage from the City of Brass. It is important to under-
stand that dp spells don't target individual points of damage (in which
case the above argument would be correct), but packets of damage.
There is no requirement that the packet must contain at least as much damage
as was selected by the dp spell. This is very similiar to the question if a
Ray of Command can be played targeting an untapped creature. The Ray simply
isn't interested in the tap state of its target anytime, it will do the un-
tap effect, no matter if it actually changed the tap state. The Alabaster
Potion also isn't interested in how much damage there is in the packet, it
will prevent X damage, no matter how much of this is 'waste'.
: [Note that most D/P spells like Healing Salve say "prevent _up to_ 3 damage"
: so they can be aimed at anything you want, but Alabaster Potion says "prevent
: X damage" exactly. If there isn't X damage, it cannot be used with that X.
: Guardian Angel works the same way.]
The 'up to' terminology is simply not necessary, it is a leftover from earlier.
You can use a Millstone on an empty library, why not use an Alabaster Potion
on less damage? The answer is that both Millstone and the Potion don't target
individual cards/damage points, they target a player/damage packet.
Ingo Warnke
Paul Barclay
In article <01bc599d$32cc0420$ba27...@michmarc2.dns.microsoft.com> "Mike Marcelais" <mich...@microsoft.com> writes:
>> In the finals, Rudy Edwards was playing Chip Hogan. In the third game
>> Chip is beating down Rudy with a Vaevictus Asmadi. Rudy has a Fyndhorn
>> Elder that Chip enchanted with a Teferi's Curse, that is currently phased
>> out. At the beginning of Rudy's turn, Chip is at 20, and Rudy is at 5
>> life. Rudy began his untap phase and in response to the Elder phasing in,
>> he taps a City of Brass for mana.
>> Note that this happens before Rudy untaps during his untap phase
>> because phasing happens before untapping. Rudy immediately goes into a
>> damage prevention/redirection phase and casts an 8 point Alabaster
>> Potion, leaving himself 2 islands untapped.
>This is illegal. Where are the 8 points of damage being prevented?
>Alabaster Potion targets damage (when used to prevent damage -- it cannot be
>used to gain life during a damage prevention phase). Since there is only 1
>point of damage pending, the most that X could be in the Potion is 1.
Alabaster Potion targets <any number of> _packets_ of damage. It doesn't
target the damage individually. This is Da Rule (TM) for damage prevention
spells and effects.
Paul Barclay.
mcc...@wku.edu
In article <5knt6k$k...@news.IAEhv.nl>, pvg...@iaehv.nl (Paul van Gool) writes:
> "Mike Marcelais" <mich...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>>> "Either player can play fast effects (instants, interrupts, and mana
>>> sources) during any of these phases except for untap and cleanup."
>>>
>>> So tapping of a land for mana is NOT allowed at all.
>
>>illegal.
> OK, tell me were and in which rule this is written down.
>>of Alabaster Potion.
> during untap phase.
Try reading Stephen D'Angelo's files. They describe when Mana Sources can and
cannot be used quite well. And, Yes, they CAN be used during untap. Also, the
files explain that damage prevention spells may attempt to prevent more damage
than is actually assigned. So the Alabaster Potion for 8 is legal. Since the
Potion os cast, the Mana Drain is legal.
With a little reading, we can end this "Is this legal?" discussion. It IS legal.
Period.
mcc...@wku.edu
In article <336FCE...@ix.netcom.com>, Bennie <ben...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> Hasn't anyone just posed the question to WotC? They could settle this
> question... seems to be a hair-splitting quandrey that Mr. Wylie
> should weigh in on.
Oh....great....let's get Tom involved. That means that it will be ruled
differently than it is supposed to....counterintuitive...at least, if he stays
consistent with what he's ruled lately...
mcc...@wku.edu
In article <336EDC...@resnet.ucsb.edu>, City Hunter <ryan....@resnet.ucsb.edu> writes:
>> If you have a mishra factory, you can block a bear, kill the bear, go
>> to damage prevention, and if you have a storm cauldron in play, you can
>> tap the mishra for mana, make it blink into your hand and it lives.
>> That's more than blinkie can do.
>
> Um, a Mishras Factory can't tap for mana when it is a creature, read the
> card.
Um...methinks YOU need to read the card. If you make it a creature, it cannot
tap for mana ****on the turn it came into play.****
mcc...@wku.edu
In article <5koda4$9...@bolt.sonic.net>, rah...@sonic.net (Robert Hubby) writes:
> Erik Osterholm (er...@tamu.edu) wrote:
> : Mana Drain UU
>
> Correction: 1U is the casting cost.
>
PUFF, PUFF, GIVE!!!!!
Mana Drain costs (as stated above) UU. I have NO idea where you got your
information.
mcc...@wku.edu
In article <336FBE...@express-news.net>, David Gude <dg...@express-news.net> writes:
>
> I don't care if everything is phased out, you CAN NOT, I repeat can not
> cast spells during in response too, or anything else having to do with
> untap. You must wait until upkeep.
Dude, you need to chill out and read a bit. Try D'Angelo's files. You are
severely wrong.
Hoftyzer John T
Paul van Gool (pvg...@iaehv.nl) wrote:
: "Mike Marcelais" <mich...@microsoft.com> wrote:
: >> straight from 5th edition rulebook (page 22)
: >> "Either player can play fast effects (instants, interrupts, and mana
: >> sources) during any of these phases except for untap and cleanup."
: >>
: >> So tapping of a land for mana is NOT allowed at all.
: >Mana sources can be used _at any time_; even when using an effect is normally
: >illegal.
: OK, tell me were and in which rule this is written down.
: As far as I know nowwhere.
Page 43 of the Mirage Rulebook. Read it and weep.
: >The problem with the combo (and the only one that I see) is the use
: >of Alabaster Potion.
: Ofcourse casting the Potion or Mana Draining it are also both illegal
: during untap phase.
And of course, he didn't cast them during the untap phase. He cast them
in a damage prevention sub-phase, which was totally legal. However, the
8 on the alabaster potion was illegal, you cannot prevent damage that
isnot there.
John
Eric Bezancon
mcc...@wku.edu wrote:
>
> In article <336FCE...@ix.netcom.com>, Bennie <ben...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > Hasn't anyone just posed the question to WotC? They could settle this
> > question... seems to be a hair-splitting quandrey that Mr. Wylie
> > should weigh in on.
>
> Oh....great....let's get Tom involved. That means that it will be ruled
> differently than it is supposed to....counterintuitive...at least, if he stays
> consistent with what he's ruled lately...
>
> --
I think you're beeing pretty tough on Tom. So far, he has done a very
good job...
I'm sure he will ruled that Rudy's move was legal, kinda wierd..., but
legal.
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> | | |
> | Jason McCoy | Visit the Nexus! |
> | of | You can find us on the Web at: |
> | Team Nexus | http://www.mindspring.com/~thenexus/index.htm |
> |______________________|_____________________________________________________|
--
-----------------------------------------------------
Eric BEZANCON
Institut National de l'Audiovisuel
4 Av de l'Europe - 94366 Bry sur Marne Cedex - FRANCE
Email: b...@ina.fr - Tel: 01.49.83.24.55
-----------------------------------------------------
Hoftyzer John T
Ingo Warnke (nfa...@hp1.uni-rostock.de) wrote:
: Walter Goodwin (wgoo...@expert.cc.purdue.edu) wrote:
: : Now, here's the problem, Alabaster Potion is legal during a DP step
: : only when it is preventing damage, And, since the latest version (ack,
: : I think the latest version says this, I could be wrong) says prevent
: : X damage (not up to X damage) it must have X points of damage to target,
: No. It targets *packets* of damage, not individual points. The Alabaster
: potion had one target, the packet of damage created by the City. It is
: legal to cast an 8 point Alabaster Potion on it just as it legal to use a
: Millstone on a 1 card library.
No, no, no. Alabaster Potion does not target a packet of damage. If you
get hit by 10 points of combat damage from 5 different creatures, a 10
point Alabaster Potion will prevent all of it. If what you said were
true, then you could only prevent the packet of one creature and have to
take the rest, this is just not right. The X in Alabaster Potion must be
equal to or less than the amount of damage you have taken to enter the
current damage prevention step. Since Rudt has taken 1 damage (City of
Brass) he can cast, at most, a 1 point Alabaster Potion.
John
Hoftyzer John T
mcc...@wku.edu wrote:
: > So, I guess that he could tap the land for mana, but he would have
: > absolutely nothing to do with that mana except burn. The Alabaster
: > Potion was not legal to cast at all, nor was the Mana Drain. That's the
: > problem here.
: Here's why no one mentioned this before: BOTH spells WERE legal. Did you both
: totally miss the part about City of Brass??? There was a damage prevention step
: created DURING untap which allows damage prevention spells (such as Alabaster
: Potion) to be cast. These spells are fully capable of being countered (by spells
: such as Mana Drain.)
: He has no mana in his pool at the end of untap, therefore takes no burn. This
: was a legal play by the current rules. Read more.
Both spells were leagl to be played, but not the way he did it. Since
the gain life aspect of Alabaster Potion cannot be used during a damage
prevention phase, he must have been trying to prevent damage with it.
Since the Potion targets damage, he could not have cast it for more than
1, so the play he made was not legal. Read more.
John
Ingo Warnke
Hoftyzer John T (jth...@nic.smsu.edu) wrote:
: : No. It targets *packets* of damage, not individual points. The Alabaster
: : potion had one target, the packet of damage created by the City. It is
: : legal to cast an 8 point Alabaster Potion on it just as it legal to use a
: : Millstone on a 1 card library.
: No, no, no. Alabaster Potion does not target a packet of damage. If you
: get hit by 10 points of combat damage from 5 different creatures, a 10
: point Alabaster Potion will prevent all of it. If what you said were
: true, then you could only prevent the packet of one creature and have to
: take the rest, this is just not right.
Look again at what I wrote. The first sentence talks about packets in plural,
that is the general case when casting Alabaster Potion (AP). So in your i
example, the AP would be able to target different packets of damage created
by different creatures.
I then proceeded to talk about the problem at hand, the Alabaster Potion vs.
the City damage. In this sentence I had only that example in mind, so I stated
that the AP had one target, which is correct in that scenario.
: The X in Alabaster Potion must be
: equal to or less than the amount of damage you have taken to enter the
: current damage prevention step.
Can you explain how you come to that conlcusion? You can mill an empty library
(because the ability targets a player, not cards), you can Ray of Command a
tapped creature (because the target specification is 'creature', not 'tapped
creature'). Exactly the same logic holds for AP. Its target(s) are damage
packet(s), if there is a damage packet, you can cast AP.
Ingo Warnke
David Buchanan
Paul Barclay <PB...@cam.ac.uk> wrote in article
<PB207.576...@cam.ac.uk>...
: Except for the fact that the Warbeast causes loss of life. Substitute a
: Floodgate and a non-blue creature, and you'll be fine.
Look again, it does damage. At least, mine do.
DDB
David Buchanan
Hoftyzer John T <jth...@nic.smsu.edu> wrote in article
<5kq11i$12...@ursa.smsu.edu>...
: Paul van Gool (pvg...@iaehv.nl) wrote:
: : "Mike Marcelais" <mich...@microsoft.com> wrote:
:
: : >> straight from 5th edition rulebook (page 22)
: : >> "Either player can play fast effects (instants, interrupts, and mana
: : >> sources) during any of these phases except for untap and cleanup."
: : >>
: : >> So tapping of a land for mana is NOT allowed at all.
:
: : >Mana sources can be used _at any time_; even when using an effect is
normally
: : >illegal.
:
: : OK, tell me were and in which rule this is written down.
: : As far as I know nowwhere.
:
: Page 43 of the Mirage Rulebook. Read it and weep.
What do phase costs have to do with anything?
Try page 46 :
Untap: No fast effects are allowed...
And the Glossary p.68
fast effect. An instant, interrupt, mana source, or noncontinuous
ability...
It goes against what I've been hearing, so the rulebook must
be in error against Ingo, Delaney, and Marcelais.
Wish I had a 5th ed. to compare it to.
DDB
mcc...@wku.edu
In article <5kq0r0$12...@ursa.smsu.edu>, jth...@nic.smsu.edu (Hoftyzer John T) writes:
> mcc...@wku.edu wrote:
>
> : He has no mana in his pool at the end of untap, therefore takes no burn. This
> : was a legal play by the current rules. Read more.
>
> Both spells were leagl to be played, but not the way he did it. Since
> the gain life aspect of Alabaster Potion cannot be used during a damage
> prevention phase, he must have been trying to prevent damage with it.
> Since the Potion targets damage, he could not have cast it for more than
> 1, so the play he made was not legal. Read more.
>
> John
Hey, John....try reading more about Damage Prevention. The points are not
targetted, the packet is. He can (and did) attempt to prevent 8 damage, although
only 1 pt was assigned. This is legal by current rules. I am not saying it
SHOULD be legal. I am saying it IS.
--
Eric Taylor
Bennie (ben...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: Hasn't anyone just posed the question to WotC? They could settle this
: question... seems to be a hair-splitting quandrey that Mr. Wylie
: should weigh in on.
This is not a hair-splitting question.
Like Brian Engle posted in a previous article, the players involved
weren't your average magic tools. They know the rules. It's all
perfectly legal.
I think my previous point I posted at the beginning of the thread has
been proven by now as evinced by the slew of replies from tools who are
positive you can't do it.
Don't dare do a trick like this in your average tournament.
It will be difficult and perhaps impossible to convince the average
level 1 judge this is legal, let alone your opponent, who will tell
everyone you cheated when the fireball hits him.
Mike Marcelais
City Hunter <ryan....@resnet.ucsb.edu> wrote in article
<336EDC...@resnet.ucsb.edu>...
> > If you have a mishra factory, you can block a bear, kill the bear, go
> > to damage prevention, and if you have a storm cauldron in play, you can
> > tap the mishra for mana, make it blink into your hand and it lives.
> > That's more than blinkie can do.
>
> Um, a Mishras Factory can't tap for mana when it is a creature, read the
> card.
Why not (assuming that it doesn't have summoning sickness)? A Factory
doesn't lose any of its old abilities when it turns into a Worker.
--
+------------------------+----------------------+
| Mike Marcelais | MS Office Developer |
| mich...@microsoft.com | and Magic Rules Guru |
+------------------------+----------------------+
| Opinions expressed in this post are mine, and |
| do not necessarily reflect those of Microsoft |
+--= Moonstone Dragon =---------------= UDIC =--+
Jim Hamp
On 7 May 1997 sj...@lehigh.edu wrote:
> In <5koda4$9...@bolt.sonic.net>, rah...@sonic.net (Robert Hubby) writes:
> >Erik Osterholm (er...@tamu.edu) wrote:
> >: Mana Drain UU
> >
> >Correction: 1U is the casting cost.
>
> Not on any Mana Drain I've ever seen.
>
I suspect he's got an Alpha version of the Throat Drain. I've often seen
them confused. Even the pictures are similar. :)
Hampster
Mike Marcelais
mark balabon <bala...@bu.edu> wrote in article <5kncet$k...@news.bu.edu>...
> Mike Marcelais (mich...@microsoft.com) wrote:
> : > straight from 5th edition rulebook (page 22)
> : > "Either player can play fast effects (instants, interrupts, and mana
> : > sources) during any of these phases except for untap and cleanup."
> : >
> : > So tapping of a land for mana is NOT allowed at all.
>
> : Mana sources can be used _at any time_; even when using an effect is
normally
> : illegal. The problem with the combo (and the only one that I see) is the
use
> : of Alabaster Potion.
>
> Mike-
>
> I'll agree that the alabaster potion is a problem. My question is
> why the mana drain isn't just as problematic? My understanding was that
> no effects (or spells) were legal during the untap phase.
With three exceptions:
1) Mana sources are always legal.
2) Specialized effects are always legal if their "time to use them" pops
up. [Such as damage prevention effects which became legal as soon as we
needed a damage prevention step.]
3) (True) Interrupts, assuming there is a spell or effect to target.
So, the Alabaster Potion became legal to use (but not with X=8) when the
damage prevention step started up, and the Mana Drain was legal because there
was a spell to target.
Effectively, this makes _every_ spell or effect except mana sources able to
be targetted by interrupts, regardless of then they are being cast.
> Granted, the rule doesn't apply to mana sources, but wouldn't it also apply
to the mana
> drain? (I know - if he couldn't cast the potion, he couldn't drain it.
I'm
> just trying to make sure I have the rules right & he couldn't cast the
> drain either).
Interrupts have the same "global" permission that mana sources do; except
that interrupts have to be interrupting something.
mcc...@wku.edu
In article <33708C...@ina.fr>, Eric Bezancon <b...@ina.fr> writes:
> mcc...@wku.edu wrote:
>>
>> In article <336FCE...@ix.netcom.com>, Bennie <ben...@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>> > question... seems to be a hair-splitting quandrey that Mr. Wylie
>> > should weigh in on.
>>
>> differently than it is supposed to....counterintuitive...at least, if he stays
>> consistent with what he's ruled lately...
>>
>> --
>
> I think you're beeing pretty tough on Tom. So far, he has done a very
> good job...
> I'm sure he will ruled that Rudy's move was legal, kinda wierd..., but
> legal.
Ooops....I am sorry. That was more of a joke than anything. I know that Tom has
his hands full with us...and I know he makes a lot of rulings, pulling from a
lot of other rulings. Some of his latest ones have been kind of weird, though. I
agree that he has done a good job.
Michael Feuell
[note, X-posted, and a courtesy copy emailed]
David DeLaney<d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu> wrote:
>Nope. Casting the Potion in damage prevention mode is legal any time there
>is damage done and a damage-prevention step is going on; any spell can be
>interrupted, so any spell can be Mana Drained.
Dave,
Does this mean you can now counter-spell a false orders?
Previous versions of the rules made this spell uncounterable (as it was
the only legal spell during 'declare blockers').
Also, it didn't say he did, but could he have, after the creature phased
in _then_ tapped the city, and used the creature as well to get a bigger
A.Potion? (then untapping all the land and the creature...) :*)
Doing it that way, at least, would give you a reason as to why it had to
be done during the untap, rather than during the 'start of turn' phase or
during the previous turn's discard phase...
thanks,
`\ /'
-elf >`^'<
/=\
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~Michael J. Feuell (e...@cie.cuc.com)~
~http://www.empire.net/~elf/mpa (Magic Players Association)~
~http://www.empire.net/~elf/magic (see _your_ DCI rating/ranking)~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Walter Goodwin
In article <01bc5b01$940ce820$ba27...@michmarc2.dns.microsoft.com>,
Mike Marcelais <mich...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>
>So, the Alabaster Potion became legal to use (but not with X=8) when the
>damage prevention step started up, and the Mana Drain was legal because there
>was a spell to target.
>
Actually, Ingo was right. I guess I went too much on the wording
of the card instead of trying to apply the "meta-rules" (or, better
know as rules that aren't really written down :) You can always
try to prevent more damage than is actually there. _sigh_.
BTW, Rich is also in agreement that you can also spend more mana
than points of damage, so don't even try to argue about it ;) </sarcasm>
Jason Goodwin
wgoo...@expert.cc.purdue.edu
Robert Hubby
sj...@lehigh.edu wrote:
: In <5koda4$9...@bolt.sonic.net>, rah...@sonic.net (Robert Hubby) writes:
: >Erik Osterholm (er...@tamu.edu) wrote:
: >: Mana Drain UU
: >Correction: 1U is the casting cost.
: Not on any Mana Drain I've ever seen.
I think you're thinking of DRAIN POWER, not Mana Drain.
R.A.H. Elf of the redwoods, Sonoma Valley, Breakfast Cereal Country.
"Most software isn't designed. Rather, it emerges from the development
team like a zombie emerging from a bubbling vat of Research and
Development juice" - Alan Cooper
Robert Hubby
Trevor Holness (thol...@pathcom.com) wrote:
: Robert Hubby wrote:
: > : Mana Drain UU
: > Correction: 1U is the casting cost.
: was always under the impression that it was UU
Drain Power is UU, Mana Drain is 1U...always was, always will be.
R.A.H. Elf of the redwoods, Sonoma Valley, Breakfast Cereal Country.
"My Karma ran over my Dogma." - Bumper Sticker
Robert Hubby
mcc...@wku.edu wrote:
: In article <5koda4$9...@bolt.sonic.net>, rah...@sonic.net (Robert Hubby) writes:
: > Erik Osterholm (er...@tamu.edu) wrote:
: > : Mana Drain UU
: > Correction: 1U is the casting cost.
: Mana Drain costs (as stated above) UU. I have NO idea where you got your
: information.
From looking at the card. Are you sure you're not looking at a "Drain Power"
instead of a Mana Drain?
R.A.H. Elf of the redwoods, Sonoma Valley, Breakfast Cereal Country.
"You ask so many questions...what answer should I choose?
Is it Schizoid Paranoia or just Existential Blues?" - T-bone.
Nicholas Neil Abbondante
ADAM!!!, could you please try and clear this issue up?
i'm sure you have seen the posts.
just in case, though:
during untap phase:
as a mana source, city of brass is tapped
this sidesteps into a damage prevention phase
an 8-point alabaster potion is cast to prevent the 1 damage from the city
of brass
it is mana drained by the caster
the caster then, durin their main phase, taps all the now-untapped land
and includes the mana drain mana in a 21-point game ending fireball
thank you.
and get tom if you need to
Nick 'the lieutenant' Abbondante o ,_o
n...@wpi.edu http://www.wpi.edu/~nrk/ /T-+--/ |\
Wpi Astronomical Society(WAS) President / > < |
w...@wpi.edu http://www.wpi.edu/~was/ FENCING!!
Senior Programmer @ Web Design Associates PHYSICS!!
n...@wedesignsites.com http://www.wedesignsites.com/
Jim Hamp
On Tue, 6 May 1997, Bennie wrote:
> Hasn't anyone just posed the question to WotC? They could settle this
> question... seems to be a hair-splitting quandrey that Mr. Wylie
> should weigh in on.
Dave DeLaney, now official WotC netrep in .rules, has stated that this
was legal from beginning to end.
Hampster
Chad Taylor Reedy
On Wed, 7 May 1997, Erik Osterholm wrote:
> City Hunter <ryan....@resnet.ucsb.edu> wrote:
>
> >> If you have a mishra factory, you can block a bear, kill the bear, go
> >> to damage prevention, and if you have a storm cauldron in play, you can
> >> tap the mishra for mana, make it blink into your hand and it lives.
> >> That's more than blinkie can do.
>
> >Um, a Mishras Factory can't tap for mana when it is a creature, read the
> >card.
>
> I am reading it. It doesn't say that anywhere on it. You go read the
> card. It still counts as a land. It cannot tap for mana if it has
> summoning sickness, but that only happens the first turn that the CARD
> is in play.
>
> Erik Osterholm
> er...@tamu.edu
> http://PersonalWebs.myriad.net/erik/
> http://www2.cy-net.net/~erik/
>
>
>
If a Mishra's Factory is a 2/2 Assembly Worker Artifact Creature, you
CANNOT tap it for mana.
David Buchanan
Robert Hubby <rah...@sonic.net> wrote in article
<5kqqaq$3...@bolt.sonic.net>...
: Trevor Holness (thol...@pathcom.com) wrote:
: : Robert Hubby wrote:
: : > : Mana Drain UU
: : > Correction: 1U is the casting cost.
: : Since when is Mana Drain U1 to cast? Unless I missed something HUGE, I
: : was always under the impression that it was UU
:
: Drain Power is UU, Mana Drain is 1U...always was, always will be.
:
Hmm.... Just so nobody has any confusion I'm going
to list the cards involved right here. This comes
straight out of the encyclopedia:
Mana Drain UU Interupt from Legends
Counters target spell. At the beginning of your...
Illus. C1994 Mark Tedin :)
Drain Power UU Sorcery in Fourth Ed.
Target player must draw all mana from his or her...
Illus. Douglas Shuler
Kinda funny, both are UU!
DDB
Phaedrus
In article <Pine.A41.3.95.970507...@tiger3.ocs.lsu.edu>,
Chad Taylor Reedy <cre...@tiger3.ocs.lsu.edu> wrote:
>On Wed, 7 May 1997, Erik Osterholm wrote:
>> City Hunter <ryan....@resnet.ucsb.edu> wrote:
>> >Um, a Mishras Factory can't tap for mana when it is a creature, read the
>> >card.
>> I am reading it. It doesn't say that anywhere on it. You go read the
>> card. It still counts as a land. It cannot tap for mana if it has
>> summoning sickness, but that only happens the first turn that the CARD
>> is in play.
>If a Mishra's Factory is a 2/2 Assembly Worker Artifact Creature, you
>CANNOT tap it for mana.
Ummm, first of all, as the post you're replying to (and whose text you
included) pointed out, nowhere does the card say this. Second, if you
check the rulings (something that's generally very wise to do before you set
out to correct a correction), you'll find this: "When it is an Assembly
Worker, it is still a land and retains all of its other abilities. [Duelist
Magazine #2, Page 14]"
--
\o\ If you're interested in books/stories with transformation themes, \o\
/o/ try <URL:http://www.halcyon.com/phaedrus/translist/translist.html>. /o/
\o\ New list entries always appreciated. FC1.21:FC(W/C)p6arw A- C->++ D>++ \o\
/o/ H+ M>+ P R T++++ W** Z+ Sm RLCT a cmn++++$ d e++ f+++ h- i++wf p-- sm# /o/
Walter Goodwin
In article <5kqqg2$4...@bolt.sonic.net>, Robert Hubby <rah...@sonic.net> wrote:
>From looking at the card. Are you sure you're not looking at a "Drain Power"
>instead of a Mana Drain?
Ummm, looking at the card here in my hand, it does indeed cost
UU to cast. (and look, here it is in apprentice, and other card
lists with the same cost.)
Erik Osterholm
rah...@sonic.net (Robert Hubby) wrote:
>mcc...@wku.edu wrote:
>: In article <5koda4$9...@bolt.sonic.net>, rah...@sonic.net (Robert Hubby) writes:
>: > Erik Osterholm (er...@tamu.edu) wrote:
>: > : Mana Drain UU
>: > Correction: 1U is the casting cost.
>: PUFF, PUFF, GIVE!!!!!
>: Mana Drain costs (as stated above) UU. I have NO idea where you got your
>: information.
>From looking at the card. Are you sure you're not looking at a "Drain Power"
>instead of a Mana Drain?
Hell, I think even Drain Power has a UU casting cost. Yup, the guy's
definately nuts.
Dan Johnson
In article <01bc5afe$bbf4b1e0$1118aa84@ddb91737>,
David Buchanan <ddb9...@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu> wrote:
>Hoftyzer John T <jth...@nic.smsu.edu> wrote in article
><5kq11i$12...@ursa.smsu.edu>...
>What do phase costs have to do with anything?
Perhaps he meant page 43 of the Fifth Edition rulebook: You may play mana
sources whenever you have priority to play any kind of spell or ability,
including times such as the untap phase ....
--
Daniel W. Johnson
pano...@iquest.net
http://www.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
Rudy Edward
OK, almost all of these things have been pointed out out one point or
another by 3 or 4 people in this thread who are constantly correcting
peoples mistakes, but I'll clarify things anyhow:
First:
I did not "respond" to the Fyndhorn Elder phasing in (I'm not even sure
if responding to phasing in is legal, not that it would make a difference
in anything I can think of) I tapped the COB *after* the Elder was phased
in, and it was necessary, or I would not have had the mana to cast the 8
point alabaster potion and a mana drain, to end up with the phat
fireball...
Second: tapping for mana during untap is legal (I bet more than half of
the people who knew that play with Mirror Universe, eh?)
Third: Alabaster potion does not target specific damage, therefore can be
cast for any x... so it can be cast for 8 even when only one point of
damage exists....
Fourth: Alabaster potion is legal to cast even during the untap phase,
qualifying as a "specialized effect" once there is damage (COB) to
trigger damage prevention
Fifth: Mana Drain also qualifies once a spell (alabaster potion) is cast,
and can therefore be cast during Untap
Sixth: Mana Drain does not cost 1U (although if you ask the visions
design team, that wouldnt be as bad as long as it put x mana into your
opponents pool during YOUR main phase as well) and Mana Drain DEFINITELEY
says that you get the mana during your NEXT main phase.
Seventh: yes, I really can count to 7
-the pimp in the winnebago
Paul Barclay
"David Buchanan" <ddb9...@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu> writes:
Ah. As pointed out to me by Ingo Warnke, I have some fabulously rare
misprinted Phrexian War Beasts :-)
Paul Barclay.
Paul Barclay
e...@netmarket.com (Michael Feuell) writes:
>[note, X-posted, and a courtesy copy emailed]
>David DeLaney<d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu> wrote:
>>Nope. Casting the Potion in damage prevention mode is legal any time there
>>is damage done and a damage-prevention step is going on; any spell can be
>>interrupted, so any spell can be Mana Drained.
> Dave,
> Does this mean you can now counter-spell a false orders?
> Previous versions of the rules made this spell uncounterable (as it was
> the only legal spell during 'declare blockers').
Yep. You can interrupt _any_ non-manasource spell at any time.
> Also, it didn't say he did, but could he have, after the creature phased
> in _then_ tapped the city, and used the creature as well to get a bigger
> A.Potion? (then untapping all the land and the creature...) :*)
Sure. Untapping is a Phase Effect done in the Untap phase. You can do this at
any time during the untap phase.
> Doing it that way, at least, would give you a reason as to why it had to
> be done during the untap, rather than during the 'start of turn' phase or
> during the previous turn's discard phase...
Yep.
Paul Barclay.
David Ryle
Robert Hubby wrote:
> : Mana Drain costs (as stated above) UU. I have NO idea where you got your
> : information.
>
> From looking at the card. Are you sure you're not looking at a "Drain Power"
> instead of a Mana Drain?
So you have a Mana Drain that costs U1? Have you done the bend test on
this card? If it passes you may well have the rarest card in existence
(along with 1996 World Champion).
How much are you selling it for? ;-)
the Bog Imp
mcc...@wku.edu
In article <5kqqaq$3...@bolt.sonic.net>, rah...@sonic.net (Robert Hubby) writes:
> Trevor Holness (thol...@pathcom.com) wrote:
> : Robert Hubby wrote:
> : > : Mana Drain UU
> : > Correction: 1U is the casting cost.
> : was always under the impression that it was UU
>
> Drain Power is UU, Mana Drain is 1U...always was, always will be.
>
Sorry, Robert.....Mana Drain costs UU...the same as a Counterspell and Drain
Power.
mcc...@wku.edu
In article <Pine.A41.3.95.970507...@tiger3.ocs.lsu.edu>, Chad Taylor Reedy <cre...@tiger3.ocs.lsu.edu> writes:
>
> If a Mishra's Factory is a 2/2 Assembly Worker Artifact Creature, you
> CANNOT tap it for mana.
>
>
If that is what you think, then I hope to play you soon. Read the card (or any
of the rulings). You may not tap it for mana if it is an Assembly Worker AND it
has come into play this turn.
Stephan S
>Paul van Gool (pvg...@iaehv.nl) wrote:
>And of course, he didn't cast them during the untap phase. He cast them
>in a damage prevention sub-phase, which was totally legal. However, the
>8 on the alabaster potion was illegal, you cannot prevent damage that
>isnot there.
hmmm, if i read the Alabaster Potion right it says
" *gain* <x> Life, or prevent <x> Damage " - so where was it illegal?
>John
----
-Steve / sig...@cryogen.com
//Her hand gently beckons, she whispers your name -- but those who//
//go with her are never the same.//
----
Chris Otwell
In article 3...@bolt.sonic.net, rah...@sonic.net (Robert Hubby) writes:
> Trevor Holness (thol...@pathcom.com) wrote:
> : Robert Hubby wrote:
> : > : Mana Drain UU
> : > Correction: 1U is the casting cost.
> : Since when is Mana Drain U1 to cast? Unless I missed something HUGE, I
> : was always under the impression that it was UU
>
> Drain Power is UU, Mana Drain is 1U...always was, always will be.
Uhh....No, both are UU to cast.... But if you have any Mana Drains with a
1U casting cost, I'd trade you nicely for them.
Chris
> R.A.H. Elf of the redwoods, Sonoma Valley, Breakfast Cereal Country.
> "My Karma ran over my Dogma." - Bumper Sticker
---
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Christopher E. Otwell otw...@rmtc.central.sun.com
mark balabon
David DeLaney (d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu) wrote:
: "Nafaroo, Endbringer" <aret...@students.uiuc.edu> writes:
: >Exactly! Why did no one mention this before? The problem is, while he
: >can now legally tap the mana during untap, because of the new mana source
: >speed, he can't do anything with it.
: >So, I guess that he could tap the land for mana, but he would have
: >absolutely nothing to do with that mana except burn. The Alabaster
: >Potion was not legal to cast at all, nor was the Mana Drain. That's the
: >problem here.
: Nope. This all started with the player tapping a _City of Brass_. That,
: during untap phase, produced the triggered effect of the player taking
: one damage; this in turn, still during untap phase, set off a damage
prevention
: step, in which the Alabaster Potion was legal to cast in damage-prevention
mode.
: [Not in gain-life mode, of course.]
I think that's the problem. If the potion is in damage-prevention mode,
can he prevent as much damage as he wants? I don't have a potion handy,
but I think the wording supports 2 interpretations:
1) He can prevent x damage, where x is the amount of damage taken (in this
example, it would be the 1 point he took from the city).
2) he can prevent x damage, but x may exceed the actual amount of damage
done. He doesn't gain life because the potion is in DP mode, but he can
spend more on x than damage done. (like he actually did - 8 was spent,
although the x damage was 1).
It comes down to which interpretation is correct.
Bally
Thomas Fagerlie Gundersen
way...@auburn.campus.mci.net wrote:
>
> I was hanging out at the Warzone Saturday night after the ptq. Rudy
> Edwards, Chip Hogan, Aziz Al-doory, Shay Hall, Josh Bradford, Scott
> Reinfeld,Brian Engle,And myself, Will Ayers played in a non-sanctioned
> 5th/Mirage/Italian Legends booster draft. I, being a relative newcomer to
> the big leagues, drafted like a little girl with sand in her panties,
> ended up with 4 creatures and an x spell, and little else. I get my
> panties whooped when little weenie hordes tear me a new orifice, by Shay
> Hall who drafted 2 Hecatombs, a Blanket of Night, and a Kormus Bell.
> In the finals, Rudy Edwards was playing Chip Hogan. In the third game
> Chip is beating down Rudy with a Vaevictus Asmadi. Rudy has a Fyndhorn
> Elder that Chip enchanted with a Teferi's Curse, that is currently phased
> out. At the beginning of Rudy's turn, Chip is at 20, and Rudy is at 5
> life. Rudy began his untap phase and in response to the Elder phasing in,
> he taps a City of Brass for mana.
> Note that this happens before Rudy untaps during his untap phase
> because phasing happens before untapping. Rudy immediately goes into a
> damage prevention/redirection phase and casts an 8 point Alabaster
> Potion, leaving himself 2 islands untapped. Rudy then Mana Drains his own
> Alabaster Potion so that during his main phase he will have an additional
> 10 colorless mana. After all of this resolved, Rudy then continues with
> his untap phase and untaps all his land. Chip makes Rudy walk through it
> once again (very slowly), analyzing the procedure step by step, finally
> agreeing that it was a legal play.
> After Rudy draws his card and enters his main phase, he then casts a
> twenty-one point disintegrate, tapping all of his lands and the Fyndhorn
> Elder plus the mana from the Mana Drain. The look of surprise on Chip's
> face when Rudy pulled this off was priceless.
> After discussing this at great length (several hours) between the
> bystanders AND the players, Chip comments that this entire problem would
> never have arisen if WotC had never introduced the phasing section of the
> untap phase.
> I just say it all sucks hot buttered ass.
>
> -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Actually, it is not legal to play effects that are not damage
prevention or redirection in the damage prevention phase.
From the 5th Edition rulebook (online version) :
Damage prevention begins in the "neutral state," with only fast
effects that prevent or redirect damage being legal. At the end of
damage prevention, abilities that automatically redirect damage are
played as a series of effects, followed by all other abilities that
trigger when damage is dealt. If any damage is generated or
redirected at the end of damage prevention, it's all handled during
a damage-prevention step following the current one. Deducting damage
from players' life totals and destroying creatures with lethal
damage happens as a single step just after the current
damage-prevention step but before the next one.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas F. Gundersen (tho...@pvv.org)
Homepage : http://www.pvv.org/~thomasg
----------------------------------------------------------------------