Q: Timing Questions (from a guy who thought he was experienced)
Jason C Reynolds
Okay. I thought I had timing down... Then I played a game involving
multiple Nettling Imps, Tims, Seasingers, Royal Assasins, and
Jandor's Saddlebags... I've also read a couple of posts that have
totally confused me. I thought it was as simple as Last In, First Out,
but apparently there is a flaw in my logic (when it comes to 'fast effect'
damage anyway). So, I thought propose a couple of hypothetical situations
and see what the 'masters' say...
Situation 1 -----
Chuck : Taps Tim to deliver 1 point of damage (enough to kill) to Frank's
Royal Assassin.
Frank : Responds by tapping Royal Assassin to destroy Chuck's Tim.
My Outcome : Chuck's Tim dies, while Frank's Royal stays alive.
My logic behind this is that if you follow the LIFO rule, Chuck's Tim
won't even live to deal his damage. Am I correct here?
Situation 2 -----
Chuck : Taps Tim to kill Frank's Royal.
Frank : Taps Royal to destroy Chuck's Tim.
Chuck : Activates his Jandor's Saddlebags and untaps his Tim.
My Outcome : Frank's Royal Assassin dies, while Chuck's Tim lives.
Using LIFO this is pretty easy.... Jandor's fires first, Chuck's Tim
becomes untapped. Next Frank's Royal looks to see if Tim is tapped.
Its not... Royal fizzles. Tim taps and delivers lethal damage to
Royal. How am I doing?
Situation 3 -----
Chuck : Casts Goblin Grenade and sacrifices a goblin to deliver 5
damage to Frank.
Frank : Powers his Rod of Ruin and does 1 point of damage (lethal)
to Chuck's soon-to-be-sacrificed goblin.
My Outcome : Frank's life total remains unchanged. Chuck's goblin dies.
Since the Timmy-on-a-Stick is going to fire way before the Goblin
Grenade resolves (it is a sorcery) this seems like a pretty easy one...
basically the goblin is in the Graveyard by the time the Grenade becomes
active. The Grenade looks around but can't find its corresponding goblin
so it fizzles.
Situation 4 -----
Chuck : Taps Tim to destroy Frank's Tim.
Frank : Taps Tim to destroy Chuck's Tim.
My Outcome : Chuck's Tim bites the dust.
Since Frank's Tim is going to resolve first Chuck's Tim will take
it in the shorts.
Situation 5 -----
(Frank has a Seasinger in play which has control of Chuck's Royal
Assassin. The Assassin was under Frank's control when his turn began
(ie. it doesn't have summoning sickness). It is Frank's turn....)
Chuck : Untaps Frank's Seasinger w/ Jandor's Saddlebags.
Chuck : Taps Nettling Imp to force Frank's Seasinger to attack.
Frank : Taps controlled Royal Assassin to destroy Chuck's Nettling Imp.
Frank : Casts Twiddle to tap Seasinger.
My Outcome : I have no idea.... suggestions?
Situation 6 -----
Chuck : Attacks Frank w/ Phantom Monster.
Frank : (Has no flying blockers) Casts Lighting, which does lethal
damage to the Phantom Monster.
Chuck : Claims that Frank takes 3 points of damage due to the fact that
his Phantom went unblocked.
Usually this kind of situation isn't a problem in our group... Frank
would take no damage and Chuck's Phantom Monster would die. Just
awhile ago my friend was at local tournament (in a situation very similar
to this... my friend = Frank) and several people told him that he would
take the 3 damage from the unblocked Phantom regardless. I (we) were
under the impression that only 'surviving unblocked attackers' dealt
damage to their opponent in the 'Assign Damage Phase'. Is not
'Declare Attackers' followed by a round of fast effects? What is the
ruling on this? (One would think that you could attack with your Craw
Wurm, unsummon it, and then tell your opponent to take 6 points of
damage... BS if you ask me.)
Misc. Questions....
Will untapping an attacking creature with Jandor's prevent said creature
from dealing damage? (I don't think so)
Can you sacrifice a creature that is 'on its way to the graveyard'?
(ie someone casts Lightning on my Armor Thrull and I sacrifice it
to another one of my creatures.)
Thats all for now..... Mucho Thanks in Advance! Email vastly preferred!
Later,
Jason Reynolds
Gary S Cerefice
|>
|> Okay. I thought I had timing down... Then I played a game involving
|> multiple Nettling Imps, Tims, Seasingers, Royal Assasins, and
|> Jandor's Saddlebags... I've also read a couple of posts that have
|> totally confused me. I thought it was as simple as Last In, First Out,
|> but apparently there is a flaw in my logic (when it comes to 'fast effect'
|> damage anyway). So, I thought propose a couple of hypothetical situations
|> and see what the 'masters' say...
Before we start, remember that removing/altering the source of an effect after
the effect has been declared/triggered has no effect on that effect.
|>
|> Situation 1 -----
|> Chuck : Taps Tim to deliver 1 point of damage (enough to kill) to Frank's
|> Royal Assassin.
|> Frank : Responds by tapping Royal Assassin to destroy Chuck's Tim.
|>
|> My Outcome : Chuck's Tim dies, while Frank's Royal stays alive.
|> My logic behind this is that if you follow the LIFO rule, Chuck's Tim
|> won't even live to deal his damage. Am I correct here?
No. Killing Tim does not undo his poke. The sequence is
-Tim pokes Vinne
-Vinne reponds by killing Tim
-No FUrther effects
-Vinnie kills Tim
Damage Resolution: Vinnie has 1 damage and 1 tougness. Vinnie dies
(BTW, Vinnie is the royal assassin)
|>
|> Situation 2 -----
|> Chuck : Taps Tim to kill Frank's Royal.
|> Frank : Taps Royal to destroy Chuck's Tim.
|> Chuck : Activates his Jandor's Saddlebags and untaps his Tim.
|>
|> My Outcome : Frank's Royal Assassin dies, while Chuck's Tim lives.
|> Using LIFO this is pretty easy.... Jandor's fires first, Chuck's Tim
|> becomes untapped. Next Frank's Royal looks to see if Tim is tapped.
|> Its not... Royal fizzles. Tim taps and delivers lethal damage to
|> Royal. How am I doing?
Close, but not quite right (just some semantics diffecences here)
-Tim taps and pokes Vinnie
-Vinnie responds by stabbing at Tim
-Tim's friendly master untapps Tim w/ the saddlebags
-No Further effects played
- Saddlebags resolve. Tim untaps
-Vinnie tries to stab Tim. Tim is untapped. Vinnie Fails
Damage resolution: Again Vinnie has 1 damage and dies.
|>
|> Situation 3 -----
|> Chuck : Casts Goblin Grenade and sacrifices a goblin to deliver 5
|> damage to Frank.
|> Frank : Powers his Rod of Ruin and does 1 point of damage (lethal)
|> to Chuck's soon-to-be-sacrificed goblin.
|>
<Wrong, misleading outcome deleted>
Sacrificing the goblin is part of the COST of the GG. It can NOT be
interrupted. Once the GG is declared, the mana is paid and the goblin is
sacrificed. This leaves no target for the Rod of Ruin to poke.
|>
|> Situation 4 -----
|> Chuck : Taps Tim to destroy Frank's Tim.
|> Frank : Taps Tim to destroy Chuck's Tim.
|>
|> My Outcome : Chuck's Tim bites the dust.
|>
|> Since Frank's Tim is going to resolve first Chuck's Tim will take
|> it in the shorts.
No. Both Tim's die. The effects resolve LIFO, but damage is not
applied/resolved until the END of the stack. At this point, both Tim's have
lethal damage and die.
|>
|> Situation 5 -----
|> (Frank has a Seasinger in play which has control of Chuck's Royal
|> Assassin. The Assassin was under Frank's control when his turn began
|> (ie. it doesn't have summoning sickness). It is Frank's turn....)
|>
|> Chuck : Untaps Frank's Seasinger w/ Jandor's Saddlebags.
|> Chuck : Taps Nettling Imp to force Frank's Seasinger to attack.
|> Frank : Taps controlled Royal Assassin to destroy Chuck's Nettling Imp.
|> Frank : Casts Twiddle to tap Seasinger.
|>
|> My Outcome : I have no idea.... suggestions?
OK, here we go
-Chuck triggerss Saddlebags to untap Seasinger
-Chuck uses Imp to make seasinger attack
-Frank taps controlled Vinnie to stab Imp
-Frank twiddles hsi own seasinger
-No Further effects
-Twiddle resolves. Seasinger looses control of
Vinnie
-Vinnie's stab resolves, killing Imp
-Imp's nettle resolves, seasinger must attack
-Saddlebags effect "fizzles" as Seaginer is untapped
Net result. Frank wasted a Twiddle (Chuck was already untapping his seasigner
for him). The Imp dies. The seasinger must attack this round or die. Chuck has
a tapped assassin
|>
|> Situation 6 -----
|> Chuck : Attacks Frank w/ Phantom Monster.
|> Frank : (Has no flying blockers) Casts Lighting, which does lethal
|> damage to the Phantom Monster.
|> Chuck : Claims that Frank takes 3 points of damage due to the fact that
|> his Phantom went unblocked.
|>
|> Usually this kind of situation isn't a problem in our group... Frank
|> would take no damage and Chuck's Phantom Monster would die. Just
|> awhile ago my friend was at local tournament (in a situation very similar
|> to this... my friend = Frank) and several people told him that he would
|> take the 3 damage from the unblocked Phantom regardless. I (we) were
|> under the impression that only 'surviving unblocked attackers' dealt
|> damage to their opponent in the 'Assign Damage Phase'. Is not
|> 'Declare Attackers' followed by a round of fast effects? What is the
|> ruling on this? (One would think that you could attack with your Craw
|> Wurm, unsummon it, and then tell your opponent to take 6 points of
|> damage... BS if you ask me.)
Correct. There is a fast effects stage after dlecaring attakcs and after
declaring blockers. If the LB is used in either of these stages, then you would
take no damage from the Phantom Monster. If you wait until the assgin damage
phase (no fast effects are legal here anyway), then you would take damage.
|>
|> Misc. Questions....
|> Will untapping an attacking creature with Jandor's prevent said creature
|> from dealing damage? (I don't think so)
NO
|>
|> Can you sacrifice a creature that is 'on its way to the graveyard'?
|> (ie someone casts Lightning on my Armor Thrull and I sacrifice it
|> to another one of my creatures.)
That depends on when you sacrifice it. If you sacrifice it before the LB
resolves, then it is OK. If you wait until the LB resolves, then you cna not
sacrifice it.
|>
|> Thats all for now..... Mucho Thanks in Advance! Email vastly preferred!
|>
|> Later,
|> Jason Reynolds
|>
Gary
Jonathon Paxman
: Okay. I thought I had timing down... Then I played a game involving
: multiple Nettling Imps, Tims, Seasingers, Royal Assasins, and
: Jandor's Saddlebags... I've also read a couple of posts that have
: totally confused me. I thought it was as simple as Last In, First Out,
: but apparently there is a flaw in my logic (when it comes to 'fast effect'
: damage anyway). So, I thought propose a couple of hypothetical situations
: and see what the 'masters' say...
This has been on this news group umpteen times.. Here we go again..
: Situation 1 -----
: Chuck : Taps Tim to deliver 1 point of damage (enough to kill) to Frank's
: Royal Assassin.
: Frank : Responds by tapping Royal Assassin to destroy Chuck's Tim.
: My Outcome : Chuck's Tim dies, while Frank's Royal stays alive.
: My logic behind this is that if you follow the LIFO rule, Chuck's Tim
: won't even live to deal his damage. Am I correct here?
nope. Both die.. the reasoning is simple.. Once an effect is
announced, and it's costs are paid for(tapping tim), the effect happens
even if the source (Tim) dies. (It's in the itty bitty rulebook).
: Situation 2 -----
: Chuck : Taps Tim to kill Frank's Royal.
: Frank : Taps Royal to destroy Chuck's Tim.
: Chuck : Activates his Jandor's Saddlebags and untaps his Tim.
: My Outcome : Frank's Royal Assassin dies, while Chuck's Tim lives.
: Using LIFO this is pretty easy.... Jandor's fires first, Chuck's Tim
: becomes untapped. Next Frank's Royal looks to see if Tim is tapped.
: Its not... Royal fizzles. Tim taps and delivers lethal damage to
: Royal. How am I doing?
Yep.
: Situation 3 -----
: Chuck : Casts Goblin Grenade and sacrifices a goblin to deliver 5
: damage to Frank.
: Frank : Powers his Rod of Ruin and does 1 point of damage (lethal)
: to Chuck's soon-to-be-sacrificed goblin.
: My Outcome : Frank's life total remains unchanged. Chuck's goblin dies.
No. The goblin sac is the cost for the grenade.. It is, then an
interrupt, in the same way that tapping for the required red mana is an
interrupt. I'm not sure on the ruling when BeB or Hydroblast is used,
since these are interrupts themselves.
In the situation you described, you cannot use the Rod, since your
target does not exist, and the grenade does it's 5pts of damage.
: Since the Timmy-on-a-Stick is going to fire way before the Goblin
: Grenade resolves (it is a sorcery) this seems like a pretty easy one...
: basically the goblin is in the Graveyard by the time the Grenade becomes
: active. The Grenade looks around but can't find its corresponding goblin
: so it fizzles.
: Situation 4 -----
: Chuck : Taps Tim to destroy Frank's Tim.
: Frank : Taps Tim to destroy Chuck's Tim.
: My Outcome : Chuck's Tim bites the dust.
Both die.. see #1
: Since Frank's Tim is going to resolve first Chuck's Tim will take
: it in the shorts.
: Situation 5 -----
: (Frank has a Seasinger in play which has control of Chuck's Royal
: Assassin. The Assassin was under Frank's control when his turn began
: (ie. it doesn't have summoning sickness). It is Frank's turn....)
: Chuck : Untaps Frank's Seasinger w/ Jandor's Saddlebags.
: Chuck : Taps Nettling Imp to force Frank's Seasinger to attack.
: Frank : Taps controlled Royal Assassin to destroy Chuck's Nettling Imp.
: Frank : Casts Twiddle to tap Seasinger.
: My Outcome : I have no idea.... suggestions?
Why not just nettle the Seasinger.. It cannot attack (since it is still
tapped) and it dies. Frank can use the RA once (to kill the Imp, maybe)
and then Chuck gets it back.
The situation you described is just silly. Frank twiddles his own
seasinger, killing it second hand when the imp effect resolves. The imp
dies via Roy, and Roy returns to Chuck, when the seasinger dies.
: Situation 6 -----
: Chuck : Attacks Frank w/ Phantom Monster.
: Frank : (Has no flying blockers) Casts Lighting, which does lethal
: damage to the Phantom Monster.
: Chuck : Claims that Frank takes 3 points of damage due to the fact that
: his Phantom went unblocked.
: Usually this kind of situation isn't a problem in our group... Frank
: would take no damage and Chuck's Phantom Monster would die. Just
: awhile ago my friend was at local tournament (in a situation very similar
: to this... my friend = Frank) and several people told him that he would
: take the 3 damage from the unblocked Phantom regardless. I (we) were
: under the impression that only 'surviving unblocked attackers' dealt
: damage to their opponent in the 'Assign Damage Phase'. Is not
: 'Declare Attackers' followed by a round of fast effects? What is the
: ruling on this? (One would think that you could attack with your Craw
: Wurm, unsummon it, and then tell your opponent to take 6 points of
: damage... BS if you ask me.)
Basically, yes. If a creature dies before damage is dealt (there is
plenty of time to do this) then it deals no damage.
: Misc. Questions....
: Will untapping an attacking creature with Jandor's prevent said creature
: from dealing damage? (I don't think so)
No
: Can you sacrifice a creature that is 'on its way to the graveyard'?
: (ie someone casts Lightning on my Armor Thrull and I sacrifice it
: to another one of my creatures.)
No. This is described verbatim in the rules. You can, however sacrifice
an attacking or blocking creature that is about to recieve lethal damage
(after blockers are declared, but before damage is dealt)
: Thats all for now..... Mucho Thanks in Advance! Email vastly preferred!
: Later,
: Jason Reynolds
James R. McClure Jr.
>Situation 1 -----
>Chuck : Taps Tim to deliver 1 point of damage (enough to kill) to Frank's
> Royal Assassin.
>Frank : Responds by tapping Royal Assassin to destroy Chuck's Tim.
>
>My Outcome : Chuck's Tim dies, while Frank's Royal stays alive.
>My logic behind this is that if you follow the LIFO rule, Chuck's Tim
>won't even live to deal his damage. Am I correct here?
Peace Jason,
False. Destroying the source of damage does not counter the damage (already in progress).
Both the PS & RA die.
>Situation 2 -----
>Chuck : Taps Tim to kill Frank's Royal.
>Frank : Taps Royal to destroy Chuck's Tim.
>Chuck : Activates his Jandor's Saddlebags and untaps his Tim.
>
>My Outcome : Frank's Royal Assassin dies, while Chuck's Tim lives.
>Using LIFO this is pretty easy.... Jandor's fires first, Chuck's Tim
>becomes untapped. Next Frank's Royal looks to see if Tim is tapped.
>Its not... Royal fizzles. Tim taps and delivers lethal damage to
>Royal. How am I doing?
Correct. You are one for two.
>Situation 3 -----
>Chuck : Casts Goblin Grenade and sacrifices a goblin to deliver 5
> damage to Frank.
>Frank : Powers his Rod of Ruin and does 1 point of damage (lethal)
> to Chuck's soon-to-be-sacrificed goblin.
>
>My Outcome : Frank's life total remains unchanged. Chuck's goblin dies.
>
>Since the Timmy-on-a-Stick is going to fire way before the Goblin
>Grenade resolves (it is a sorcery) this seems like a pretty easy one...
>basically the goblin is in the Graveyard by the time the Grenade becomes
>active. The Grenade looks around but can't find its corresponding goblin
>so it fizzles.
False. The Goblin Grenade requires the _sacrifice_ of a Goblin as a _cost_. This
means that the loss of the Goblin is unavoidable and occurs when the spell is
DECLARED (that is when you pay all costs, like mana and sacrifices). There is no
Goblin for RoR to target Frank takes 5 damage.
>Situation 4 -----
>Chuck : Taps Tim to destroy Frank's Tim.
>Frank : Taps Tim to destroy Chuck's Tim.
>
>My Outcome : Chuck's Tim bites the dust.
>
>Since Frank's Tim is going to resolve first Chuck's Tim will take
>it in the shorts.
Wrong. Again, destroying the source of a damage after the damage is "on the way"
[i.e.: part of the currently unresolved spell stack] does NOT counter that damage.
Both PSs die.
>Situation 5 -----
>(Frank has a Seasinger in play which has control of Chuck's Royal
>Assassin. The Assassin was under Frank's control when his turn began
>(ie. it doesn't have summoning sickness). It is Frank's turn....)
>
>Chuck : Untaps Frank's Seasinger w/ Jandor's Saddlebags.
>Chuck : Taps Nettling Imp to force Frank's Seasinger to attack.
>Frank : Taps controlled Royal Assassin to destroy Chuck's Nettling Imp.
>Frank : Casts Twiddle to tap Seasinger.
>
>My Outcome : I have no idea.... suggestions?
Is this supposed to be one big stack? Why wouldn't Chuck wait until the RA returns to
his control before nettling the Seasinger? As soon as the JS effect resolves (and the
Seasinger untaps), the RA returns to Chuck's control [card text]. Then Chuck can nettle
the Seasinger all he wants. If that is one big stack, then it would resolve like this:
Twiddle resolves and either fizzles (Seasinger is not yet untapped) or untaps Seasinger
(in which case Chuck gets his RA back). RA destroys NI. NI forces Seasinger to attack.
JS resolves and either fizzles (Seasinger is already untapped) or untaps Seasinger (in
which case Chuck gets his RA back). Chuck should just JS the Seasinger and get his
RA back first.
>Situation 6 -----
>Chuck : Attacks Frank w/ Phantom Monster.
>Frank : (Has no flying blockers) Casts Lighting, which does lethal
> damage to the Phantom Monster.
>Chuck : Claims that Frank takes 3 points of damage due to the fact that
> his Phantom went unblocked.
>
>Usually this kind of situation isn't a problem in our group... Frank
>would take no damage and Chuck's Phantom Monster would die. Just
>awhile ago my friend was at local tournament (in a situation very similar
>to this... my friend = Frank) and several people told him that he would
>take the 3 damage from the unblocked Phantom regardless. I (we) were
>under the impression that only 'surviving unblocked attackers' dealt
>damage to their opponent in the 'Assign Damage Phase'. Is not
>'Declare Attackers' followed by a round of fast effects? What is the
>ruling on this? (One would think that you could attack with your Craw
>Wurm, unsummon it, and then tell your opponent to take 6 points of
>damage... BS if you ask me.)
You are correct. There is a fast effects phase between Declare Blockers and Deal
Damage. A creature must survive until the Deal Damage phase to deal damage. The
PM dies and Frank takes ZERO damage.
>Misc. Questions....
>Will untapping an attacking creature with Jandor's prevent said creature
>from dealing damage? (I don't think so)
No. JS does not specify that it removes the target creature from the attack.
>Can you sacrifice a creature that is 'on its way to the graveyard'?
>(ie someone casts Lightning on my Armor Thrull and I sacrifice it
>to another one of my creatures.)
No and yes. If you wait until the LB resolves, then you cannot sacrifice the AT (it
already has lethal damage and is on its way to the graveyard). If you respond to
your opponent's LB by sac'g the AT (stacking the AT's fast effect on top of your
opponent's instant), then the AT's effect resolves first and is successful.
Nil carborundum illigitimi,
James R. McClure Jr.
The OS/2 Apostle
<insert disclaimer here>
Red Adept
>In article <3sq3hl$9...@selway.umt.edu>, j...@selway.umt.edu (Jason C Reynolds) writes:
>|> Situation 5 -----
>|> (Frank has a Seasinger in play which has control of Chuck's Royal
>|> Assassin. The Assassin was under Frank's control when his turn began
>|> (ie. it doesn't have summoning sickness). It is Frank's turn....)
>|> Chuck : Untaps Frank's Seasinger w/ Jandor's Saddlebags.
>|> Chuck : Taps Nettling Imp to force Frank's Seasinger to attack.
>|> Frank : Taps controlled Royal Assassin to destroy Chuck's Nettling Imp.
*** Frank : Casts Twiddle to tap Seasinger.
>|> My Outcome : I have no idea.... suggestions?
Close, but not quite right. Here's the sequence.
-Chuck triggers Saddlebags to untap Seasinger (tapped Saddlebags)
-Chuck uses Imp to make seasinger attack (tapped Nettling Imp)
-Frank taps controlled Vinnie to stab Imp (tapped Royal Assassin)
-Frank twiddles his own seasinger (currently tapped Seasinger)
-No Further effects
*** -Twiddle resolves to tap already tapped Seasinger (fizzle)
-Vinnie's stab resolves, killing Imp (tapped, dead Imp)
-Imp's nettle resolves, seasinger must attack (check)
-Saddlebags effect UNTAPS Seasinger (Tapped Assassin returns to Chuck)
>Net results:
Frank wasted a Twiddle. Yes, but because he tapped an already tapped
critter with it.
The Imp dies.
The (Untapped) seasinger must attack this round or die.
Chuck has a tapped assassin.
Close, but for the twiddle.
Nice going, Gary.
--Red
CFL-News Coordinator for the San Antonio Texans
---
reda...@cris.com, Brent, Son of Fiona (Amber), Robin Redgrove (SCA)
M:TG Addict, Hail Eris, All Hail Discordia, Fanimaniac, Ferret-o-phile
Witch, Raven, "Clinging to his paganism like lichen to a stone." Goth
Kyle Nishioka
: Okay. I thought I had timing down... Then I played a game involving
: multiple Nettling Imps, Tims, Seasingers, Royal Assasins, and
: Jandor's Saddlebags... I've also read a couple of posts that have
: totally confused me. I thought it was as simple as Last In, First Out,
: but apparently there is a flaw in my logic (when it comes to 'fast effect'
: damage anyway). So, I thought propose a couple of hypothetical situations
: and see what the 'masters' say...
: Situation 1 -----
: Chuck : Taps Tim to deliver 1 point of damage (enough to kill) to Frank's
: Royal Assassin.
: Frank : Responds by tapping Royal Assassin to destroy Chuck's Tim.
: My Outcome : Chuck's Tim dies, while Frank's Royal stays alive.
: My logic behind this is that if you follow the LIFO rule, Chuck's Tim
: won't even live to deal his damage. Am I correct here?
No. Tim doesn't have to be alive to deal its damage. Its activation cst
has been fully paid and its effect is still in the tack. It will resolve
no matter what happens to the source.
: Situation 2 -----
: Chuck : Taps Tim to kill Frank's Royal.
: Frank : Taps Royal to destroy Chuck's Tim.
: Chuck : Activates his Jandor's Saddlebags and untaps his Tim.
: My Outcome : Frank's Royal Assassin dies, while Chuck's Tim lives.
: Using LIFO this is pretty easy.... Jandor's fires first, Chuck's Tim
: becomes untapped. Next Frank's Royal looks to see if Tim is tapped.
: Its not... Royal fizzles. Tim taps and delivers lethal damage to
: Royal. How am I doing?
Correct.
: Situation 3 -----
: Chuck : Casts Goblin Grenade and sacrifices a goblin to deliver 5
: damage to Frank.
: Frank : Powers his Rod of Ruin and does 1 point of damage (lethal)
: to Chuck's soon-to-be-sacrificed goblin.
: My Outcome : Frank's life total remains unchanged. Chuck's goblin dies.
: Since the Timmy-on-a-Stick is going to fire way before the Goblin
: Grenade resolves (it is a sorcery) this seems like a pretty easy one...
: basically the goblin is in the Graveyard by the time the Grenade becomes
: active. The Grenade looks around but can't find its corresponding goblin
: so it fizzles.
The sacrifice is taken at the time the spell is cast. It is not possible
for the Rod to target the Goblin because (a) the active player gets to
start all spell stacks and (b) the target is removed from play when the
Grenade is cast.
So the net result is 5 damage to whatever catches the Grenade.
: Situation 4 -----
: Chuck : Taps Tim to destroy Frank's Tim.
: Frank : Taps Tim to destroy Chuck's Tim.
: My Outcome : Chuck's Tim bites the dust.
: Since Frank's Tim is going to resolve first Chuck's Tim will take
: it in the shorts.
And Frank's Tim will soon follow.
: Situation 5 -----
: (Frank has a Seasinger in play which has control of Chuck's Royal
: Assassin. The Assassin was under Frank's control when his turn began
: (ie. it doesn't have summoning sickness). It is Frank's turn....)
: Chuck : Untaps Frank's Seasinger w/ Jandor's Saddlebags.
: Chuck : Taps Nettling Imp to force Frank's Seasinger to attack.
: Frank : Taps controlled Royal Assassin to destroy Chuck's Nettling Imp.
: Frank : Casts Twiddle to tap Seasinger.
: My Outcome : I have no idea.... suggestions?
Assuming that this was all done in one batch, it will resolve like this.
The Twiddle will fizzle (the Seasinger was tapped to begin with)
The Assassin will kill the Imp
The Seasinger is Nettled. If she doesn't attack this turn, the Seasinger
will die at the end of the turn.
The Seasinger untaps.
: Situation 6 -----
: Chuck : Attacks Frank w/ Phantom Monster.
: Frank : (Has no flying blockers) Casts Lighting, which does lethal
: damage to the Phantom Monster.
: Chuck : Claims that Frank takes 3 points of damage due to the fact that
: his Phantom went unblocked.
: Usually this kind of situation isn't a problem in our group... Frank
: would take no damage and Chuck's Phantom Monster would die. Just
: awhile ago my friend was at local tournament (in a situation very similar
: to this... my friend = Frank) and several people told him that he would
: take the 3 damage from the unblocked Phantom regardless. I (we) were
: under the impression that only 'surviving unblocked attackers' dealt
: damage to their opponent in the 'Assign Damage Phase'. Is not
: 'Declare Attackers' followed by a round of fast effects? What is the
: ruling on this? (One would think that you could attack with your Craw
: Wurm, unsummon it, and then tell your opponent to take 6 points of
: damage... BS if you ask me.)
It is BS. Here is a snip from Stephen D'Angelo's ruling summaries.
Remove any attackers which were killed from the combat (even if
they regenerated). [Page 28]
: Misc. Questions....
: Will untapping an attacking creature with Jandor's prevent said creature
: from dealing damage? (I don't think so)
No.
: Can you sacrifice a creature that is 'on its way to the graveyard'?
: (ie someone casts Lightning on my Armor Thrull and I sacrifice it
: to another one of my creatures.)
If you sac it in response to the LB, yes. If you wait for the LB to
resolve, no. It is not on its way to the grave until the LB resolves and
it enters the damage prevention sub phase.
--
Kyle
nk...@uhunix3.uhcc.hawaii.edu
#include <std_disclaimer.h>
James McIninch
: Situation 1 -----
: Chuck : Taps Tim to deliver 1 point of damage (enough to kill) to Frank's
: Royal Assassin.
: Frank : Responds by tapping Royal Assassin to destroy Chuck's Tim.
: My Outcome : Chuck's Tim dies, while Frank's Royal stays alive.
: My logic behind this is that if you follow the LIFO rule, Chuck's Tim
: won't even live to deal his damage. Am I correct here?
No. Royal Assassin send Tim to the graveyard, then Tim's effect resolves
(deals one point of damage) killing the Assassin. Both are dead. The rules
concerning this are very explicit (see Resolving Fast Effects and note the
example carefully).
: Situation 2 -----
: Chuck : Taps Tim to kill Frank's Royal.
: Frank : Taps Royal to destroy Chuck's Tim.
: Chuck : Activates his Jandor's Saddlebags and untaps his Tim.
: My Outcome : Frank's Royal Assassin dies, while Chuck's Tim lives.
: Using LIFO this is pretty easy.... Jandor's fires first, Chuck's Tim
: becomes untapped. Next Frank's Royal looks to see if Tim is tapped.
: Its not... Royal fizzles. Tim taps and delivers lethal damage to
: Royal. How am I doing?
This seems correct.
: Situation 3 -----
: Chuck : Casts Goblin Grenade and sacrifices a goblin to deliver 5
: damage to Frank.
: Frank : Powers his Rod of Ruin and does 1 point of damage (lethal)
: to Chuck's soon-to-be-sacrificed goblin.
: My Outcome : Frank's life total remains unchanged. Chuck's goblin dies.
Correct. Though if there was a second goblin in play, that could be used in
lieu of the one nixed by the Rod o' Ruin.
: Situation 4 -----
: Chuck : Taps Tim to destroy Frank's Tim.
: Frank : Taps Tim to destroy Chuck's Tim.
: My Outcome : Chuck's Tim bites the dust.
: Since Frank's Tim is going to resolve first Chuck's Tim will take
: it in the shorts.
Both Tims die. (For the same reason as above).
: Situation 5 -----
: (Frank has a Seasinger in play which has control of Chuck's Royal
: Assassin. The Assassin was under Frank's control when his turn began
: (ie. it doesn't have summoning sickness). It is Frank's turn....)
: Chuck : Untaps Frank's Seasinger w/ Jandor's Saddlebags.
: Chuck : Taps Nettling Imp to force Frank's Seasinger to attack.
: Frank : Taps controlled Royal Assassin to destroy Chuck's Nettling Imp.
: Frank : Casts Twiddle to tap Seasinger.
Seasinger Untaps. Since Frank does not respond, that effect is considered
resolved, Frank lost control of the Royal.
Nettling Imp forces Seasinger to attack (hence tap). Frank has already lost
control of Royal and therefore can't do anything with it.
Were I Frank, I'd use the Twiddle to untap the Seasinger. If Chuck does not
counter, tap the Seainger to take control of another creature (maybe the
Nettling Imp, if there's nothinge better).
: Situation 6 -----
: Chuck : Attacks Frank w/ Phantom Monster.
: Frank : (Has no flying blockers) Casts Lighting, which does lethal
: damage to the Phantom Monster.
: Chuck : Claims that Frank takes 3 points of damage due to the fact that
: his Phantom went unblocked.
Wrong. The lightning bolt resolves, killing the phantom monster before the
creature deals damage. Attacking is not a fast effect.
: Will untapping an attacking creature with Jandor's prevent said creature
: from dealing damage? (I don't think so)
No.
: Can you sacrifice a creature that is 'on its way to the graveyard'?
: (ie someone casts Lightning on my Armor Thrull and I sacrifice it
: to another one of my creatures.)
No. This is explicitly stated in the rules under 'Sacrificing'.
Thomas R Wylie
Jason C Reynolds <j...@selway.umt.edu> wrote:
>Situation 1 -----
>Chuck : Taps Tim to deliver 1 point of damage (enough to kill) to Frank's
> Royal Assassin.
>Frank : Responds by tapping Royal Assassin to destroy Chuck's Tim.
>My Outcome : Chuck's Tim dies, while Frank's Royal stays alive.
>My logic behind this is that if you follow the LIFO rule, Chuck's Tim
>won't even live to deal his damage. Am I correct here?
No. Once an effect is played and paid for, mucking with the source of
the effect won't interfere with the effect itself; it is not required for
the source to remain in play in order of the effect to resolve successfully.
The Assassin still suffers 1 point of damage.
>Situation 2 -----
>Chuck : Taps Tim to kill Frank's Royal.
>Frank : Taps Royal to destroy Chuck's Tim.
>Chuck : Activates his Jandor's Saddlebags and untaps his Tim.
>
>My Outcome : Frank's Royal Assassin dies, while Chuck's Tim lives.
>Using LIFO this is pretty easy.... Jandor's fires first, Chuck's Tim
>becomes untapped. Next Frank's Royal looks to see if Tim is tapped.
>Its not... Royal fizzles. Tim taps and delivers lethal damage to
>Royal. How am I doing?
This one is fine.
>Situation 3 -----
>Chuck : Casts Goblin Grenade and sacrifices a goblin to deliver 5
> damage to Frank.
>Frank : Powers his Rod of Ruin and does 1 point of damage (lethal)
> to Chuck's soon-to-be-sacrificed goblin.
>My Outcome : Frank's life total remains unchanged. Chuck's goblin dies.
Incorrect. Sacrifices are costs, so the Goblin disappeared before either
player could even interrupt the Goblin Grenade, never mind respond to it.
>Situation 4 -----
>Chuck : Taps Tim to destroy Frank's Tim.
>Frank : Taps Tim to destroy Chuck's Tim.
>My Outcome : Chuck's Tim bites the dust.
>Since Frank's Tim is going to resolve first Chuck's Tim will take
>it in the shorts.
Actually, both Tims suffer 1 point of damage. First of all, damage always
waits until the end of the batch in order to resolve. Second, as noted
above, destroying the source of an effect does not counter the effect.
>Situation 5 -----
>(Frank has a Seasinger in play which has control of Chuck's Royal
>Assassin. The Assassin was under Frank's control when his turn began
>(ie. it doesn't have summoning sickness). It is Frank's turn....)
>Chuck : Untaps Frank's Seasinger w/ Jandor's Saddlebags.
>Chuck : Taps Nettling Imp to force Frank's Seasinger to attack.
>Frank : Taps controlled Royal Assassin to destroy Chuck's Nettling Imp.
>Frank : Casts Twiddle to tap Seasinger.
>My Outcome : I have no idea.... suggestions?
Assuming all of these effects were played in the same batch, break it down:
1. Twiddle resolves and taps the already tapped Seasinger.
2. Royal Assassin's effect destroys the Imp.
3. The Seasinger is forced to attack or die.
4. The Seasinger untaps.
The Imp is dead, and the Seasinger is free to try and attack.
>Situation 6 -----
>Chuck : Attacks Frank w/ Phantom Monster.
>Frank : (Has no flying blockers) Casts Lighting, which does lethal
> damage to the Phantom Monster.
>Chuck : Claims that Frank takes 3 points of damage due to the fact that
> his Phantom went unblocked.
>
>Usually this kind of situation isn't a problem in our group... Frank
>would take no damage and Chuck's Phantom Monster would die. Just
>awhile ago my friend was at local tournament (in a situation very similar
>to this... my friend = Frank) and several people told him that he would
>take the 3 damage from the unblocked Phantom regardless...
Your group is correct, those at the tournament are wrong. Creatures must
survive until damage dealing in order to deal their damage.
>Misc. Questions....
>Will untapping an attacking creature with Jandor's prevent said creature
>from dealing damage? (I don't think so)
No.
>Can you sacrifice a creature that is 'on its way to the graveyard'?
>(ie someone casts Lightning on my Armor Thrull and I sacrifice it
>to another one of my creatures.)
You can respond to the Lightning Bolt by sacrificing its target; the bolt
has not resolved yet, so the creature has no idea it will be taking 3 points
of damage. Only if you wait until the batch has finished resolving
can you not sacrifice the target. Creatures are only ever "on their way"
during damage prevention.
Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Bill Welch
> >Situation 2 -----
> >Chuck : Taps Tim to kill Frank's Royal.
> >Frank : Taps Royal to destroy Chuck's Tim.
> >Chuck : Activates his Jandor's Saddlebags and untaps his Tim.
> >
> >My Outcome : Frank's Royal Assassin dies, while Chuck's Tim lives.
> >Using LIFO this is pretty easy.... Jandor's fires first, Chuck's Tim
> >becomes untapped. Next Frank's Royal looks to see if Tim is tapped.
> >Its not... Royal fizzles. Tim taps and delivers lethal damage to
> >Royal. How am I doing?
>
> This one is fine.
But the Tim has been tapped twice to pay for only one poke. Are you
sure this is right?
. Bill
--
Alan Stearns
McIninch) wrote:
> Jason C Reynolds (j...@selway.umt.edu) wrote:
>
> : Situation 3 -----
> : Chuck : Casts Goblin Grenade and sacrifices a goblin to deliver 5
> : damage to Frank.
> : Frank : Powers his Rod of Ruin and does 1 point of damage (lethal)
> : to Chuck's soon-to-be-sacrificed goblin.
>
> : My Outcome : Frank's life total remains unchanged. Chuck's goblin dies.
>
> Correct. Though if there was a second goblin in play, that could be used in
> lieu of the one nixed by the Rod o' Ruin.
>
Nope. "Since Sacrifice is a cost, it happens instantaneously as soon as
you declare it; it can't be prevented by other effects" p62, little rulebook.
As soon as the Goblin Grenade is announced, the Goblin is gone. There's
nothing there for the Rod to poke.
>
> : Can you sacrifice a creature that is 'on its way to the graveyard'?
> : (ie someone casts Lightning on my Armor Thrull and I sacrifice it
> : to another one of my creatures.)
>
> No. This is explicitly stated in the rules under 'Sacrificing'.
You cannot sacrifice something on it's way to the graveyard, but you can
respond to the lightning bolt by sacrificing your Thrull. Damage hasn't
been dealt yet (the bolt hasn't resolved), so the Thrull isn't "on it's
way" yet.
Alan Stearns
alan.s...@adobe.com
Joseph W. DeVincentis
Bill Welch <bi...@moonmoth.demon.co.uk> wrote:
|In article <3stava$l...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes:
|
|> >Chuck : Taps Tim to kill Frank's Royal.
|> >Frank : Taps Royal to destroy Chuck's Tim.
|> >Chuck : Activates his Jandor's Saddlebags and untaps his Tim.
|> >
|> >My Outcome : Frank's Royal Assassin dies, while Chuck's Tim lives.
|> >Using LIFO this is pretty easy.... Jandor's fires first, Chuck's Tim
|> >becomes untapped. Next Frank's Royal looks to see if Tim is tapped.
|> >Its not... Royal fizzles. Tim taps and delivers lethal damage to
|> >Royal. How am I doing?
|>
|> This one is fine.
|
|sure this is right?
The only part that is wrong is "Tim taps and delivers...."
Replace this with "Tim does one damage to the Royal Assassin."
Tim is untapped at the end of this stack.
[Now finish the above with: "The stack of effects has finished
resolving, so handle damage. The Assassin has lethal damage,
and will go to the graveyard unless some damage prevention or
redirection is used on Tim's damage to the Assassin, or the
Assassin is regenerated."]
David DeLaney
"Jason C Reynolds (j...@selway.umt.edu) wrote:
": Situation 3 -----
": Chuck : Casts Goblin Grenade and sacrifices a goblin to deliver 5
": damage to Frank.
": Frank : Powers his Rod of Ruin and does 1 point of damage (lethal)
": to Chuck's soon-to-be-sacrificed goblin.
": My Outcome : Frank's life total remains unchanged. Chuck's goblin dies.
"
"Correct. Though if there was a second goblin in play, that could be used in
"lieu of the one nixed by the Rod o' Ruin.
Nope. You cannot "nix" a sacrifice in any way. The sacrifice, as others pointed
out, is a cost of the effect [since GG doesn't *specifically say otherwise*]
and happens as soon as you *announce* the spell, before anything can respond.
Thus it's *not there* to be poked by the time you can respond with the Rod's
effect. There is no way to "sideswipe" something being sacrificed and get rid
of it before it actually disappears from play to the graveyard; sacrifice
is totally unpreventable.
": Situation 5 -----
": (Frank has a Seasinger in play which has control of Chuck's Royal
": Assassin. The Assassin was under Frank's control when his turn began
": (ie. it doesn't have summoning sickness). It is Frank's turn....)
"
": Chuck : Untaps Frank's Seasinger w/ Jandor's Saddlebags.
": Chuck : Taps Nettling Imp to force Frank's Seasinger to attack.
": Frank : Taps controlled Royal Assassin to destroy Chuck's Nettling Imp.
": Frank : Casts Twiddle to tap Seasinger.
"
"Seasinger Untaps.
Nope. Twiddle taps Seasinger. Nothing happens, since Seasinger is already
tapped. [Twiddle does _not_ say "Tap target creature if it is untapped, or
untap it if it is tapped"; you choose which one happens when you announce
the spell.]
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. Disclaimer: IMHO; VRbeableURLAP
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
>The Twiddle will fizzle (the Seasinger was tapped to begin with)
Not _quite_. The Twiddle will resolve fully. It will tap the Seasinger. Since
the Seasinger is already tapped, this results in "Nothing Happens". This is
not a "fizzle". However, if something is tapping the Seasinger "to do X",
then X will not take place because the something failed to actually tap the
Seasinger.
Dave "Nitpicks ya ig" DeLaney
David DeLaney
> -Frank twiddles hsi own seasinger
> -No Further effects
> -Twiddle resolves. Seasinger looses control of
> Vinnie
Nope. The Twiddle was to *tap* the Seasinger; this *cannot* result in
the Seasinger untapping. All that happens is that the Twiddle resolves
[not "fizzles"] and simply Does Nothing At All.
Dave