What good is Ice Cauldron?
Frederick Scott
>
>>>
>
>> Ice Cauldron is an excellent card with several uses. For one
>>thing, you can put a Counterspell on it so that you don't have to keep 2
>>islands untapped to cast it later. Then you can use the Counterspell
>>whenever you feel like it. It can be used in this way for any instant or
>>interrupt.
>Just thought I'd set you straight here...you can put the counterspell
>on the cauldron..however..you better come up with 2 blue mana
>anyways..as tapping this artifact is NOT an interrupt...thus..the
>spell goes on unless you pay the blue from an interrupt source:)
Why can you tap the Ice Cauldron to throw a Counterspell at all? If
the Ice Cauldron doesn't tap at interrupt speed, isn't it too late to
counter a spell by the time its effect DOES resolve? (AAAARRG! TIMING
QUESTIONS!!!)
Fred
Doug Curry
>see...@proteon.inet-serv.com (Jason Seemann) writes:
The Ice Cauldron does not tap to cast the spell, it taps to release
its stored mana, and *not* at interrupt speed. So you *can* put an
interrupt (like a counterspell) on the IC, but putting the mana on it
is just setting yourself up for manaburn. It's a great way to keep a
Counterspell when your opponent is playing discard.
Doug Curry Houston, Texas
All opinions expressed are my own, and not necessarily
those of Logica, Synercom, or Paranet.
Brian Mudge
Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> wrote:
>see...@proteon.inet-serv.com (Jason Seemann) writes:
>
>>
>>>>
>>
>>> Ice Cauldron is an excellent card with several uses. For one
>>>thing, you can put a Counterspell on it so that you don't have to keep 2
>>>islands untapped to cast it later. Then you can use the Counterspell
>>>whenever you feel like it. It can be used in this way for any instant or
>>>interrupt.
>>Just thought I'd set you straight here...you can put the counterspell
>>on the cauldron..however..you better come up with 2 blue mana
>>anyways..as tapping this artifact is NOT an interrupt...thus..the
>>spell goes on unless you pay the blue from an interrupt source:)
>
>Why can you tap the Ice Cauldron to throw a Counterspell at all? If
>the Ice Cauldron doesn't tap at interrupt speed, isn't it too late to
>counter a spell by the time its effect DOES resolve? (AAAARRG! TIMING
>QUESTIONS!!!)
Not actually a timing question here. The Cauldron lets you play a
card on it as though it were in your hand. The end result is that you
can use the counterspell on the cauldron at interrupt speed, but you
can't use the cauldron's ability to cast it. (You have to pay the UU
from some other source.)
The reason you should put a zero mana counter on the cauldron if you're
going to place a counterspell on it is that the mana from the counter
can only be used for the spell.
Bri...
Dennis F. Hefferman
|Why can you tap the Ice Cauldron to throw a Counterspell at all? If
|the Ice Cauldron doesn't tap at interrupt speed, isn't it too late to
|counter a spell by the time its effect DOES resolve? (AAAARRG! TIMING
|QUESTIONS!!!)
You don't have to tap the Cauldron to cast a spell you've placed on it.
In fact, you don't even need to _control_ the Cauldron to cast a spell _you've_
placed on it....
The card should be of type "Summon Rules Lawyer".
--
Dennis Francis Heffernan IRC: Macavity heff...@pegasus.montclair.edu
Montclair State University #include <disclaim.h> Computer Science/Philosophy
"I guess my work around here has all been done."
-- The Devil, in "The Garden of Allah", Don Henley
Arlo Bensinger
(Brian Mudge) writes:
>
>In article <fred_sDM...@netcom.com>,
>Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>see...@proteon.inet-serv.com (Jason Seemann) writes:
>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>> Ice Cauldron is an excellent card with several uses. For one
>>>>thing, you can put a Counterspell on it so that you don't have to
keep 2
>>>>islands untapped to cast it later. Then you can use the
Counterspell
>>>>whenever you feel like it. It can be used in this way for any
instant or
>>>>interrupt.
>>>Just thought I'd set you straight here...you can put the
counterspell
>>>on the cauldron..however..you better come up with 2 blue mana
>>>anyways..as tapping this artifact is NOT an interrupt...thus..the
>>>spell goes on unless you pay the blue from an interrupt source:)
>>
>>the Ice Cauldron doesn't tap at interrupt speed, isn't it too late to
>>counter a spell by the time its effect DOES resolve? (AAAARRG!
TIMING
>>QUESTIONS!!!)
>
>card on it as though it were in your hand. The end result is that you
>can use the counterspell on the cauldron at interrupt speed, but you
>can't use the cauldron's ability to cast it. (You have to pay the UU
>from some other source.)
> The reason you should put a zero mana counter on the cauldron if
you're
>going to place a counterspell on it is that the mana from the counter
>can only be used for the spell.
>Bri...
>
>
See, I dont get this. Given the wording "you may play this card as
though it were in your hand" I would think WotC would errata the
Cauldron's lack of specifically saying "tapping the Cauldron for mana
is played as an interrupt" to make it implied. It just seems that's the
way the card was 'supposed' to be played, what is was designed to be
used like, and it's unfortunate lack of specifically saying "played as
an interrupt" should be errated by the rulings team. But this is just
my opinion, and who am I to question the great machinations of the DC
and WotC....
Arlo
Member LTVO
(Liberate Time Vault Organization)
Jan McManus
ar...@ix.netcom.com(Arlo "Arlo Bensinger " writes:
If the card can be played as though it is in your hand, does that mean
you can discard it if Disrupting sceptred? (CF also elkin bottle)
--
Jan McManus
J...@Turncoat.demon.co.uk (Labyrinthe)
Doug Curry
>If the card can be played as though it is in your hand, does that mean
>you can discard it if Disrupting sceptred? (CF also elkin bottle)
No, that's one of the strengths of the Cauldron. (and the Bottle)
Even though you may play the cards as if they were in your hand, they
are *not* in your hand, and are therefore not targets for things like
Amnesia, Hynotica Specter, Disrupting Sceptre, etc.
Andrew W Greenwood
: Why can you tap the Ice Cauldron to throw a Counterspell at all? If
: the Ice Cauldron doesn't tap at interrupt speed, isn't it too late to
: counter a spell by the time its effect DOES resolve? (AAAARRG! TIMING
: QUESTIONS!!!)
Well, you don't tap the Ice Cauldron to cast a spell on it. The cauldron
says you can play a spell on it as if it were in your hand. You tap the
cauldron for 1 of 2 effects: 1) to add a spell to it and to add any mana
tokens to it (you can add 0 mana tokens if you want) though you can only
do this if there are no mana tokens on the cauldron. 2) to release the
mana from the mana tokens into you mana pool (at fast effect speed, not
at interupt speed) though this mana can only be used to cast spells
already on the cauldron.
So to cast a counterspell that was on the cauldron, you would have to
provide UU from some other source that provides mana at interupt speed
and then just take the counterspell from the cauldron (much like you would
take it from your hand if that is where you were playing it from).
Hope this cleared things up for you.
-Scarecrow
N2O O2
card. it says...Tap: Spell on Ice Cauldron.....
Why is it good? Before the end of your turn, tap 11, 10 pt fireball. My
turn. untap. tap 10. fireball you for 20. Good game.
James Wenzel
>In article <4ggl3f$n...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> n2...@aol.com (N2O O2) writes:
>
> Yes, you do need to tap the cauldron to cast the spell on it. Read the
> card. it says...Tap: Spell on Ice Cauldron.....
>
>
>You tap it to add a charge counter to the Cauldron, and (at the same time)
>put a spell card in castable limbo.
True.
>Or you tap it to remove the charge counter
>and gain the mana paid to charge the Cauldron.
True again.
>
>However, ``you may play that spell as though it were in your hand''. No
>Cauldron-tapping required.
True as well.
>The Cauldron may be tapped; that doesn't stop
>you casting the spell.
False: if the Cauldron is tapped, you cannot use the spell on it because
any non-creature (non-land) artifacts cannot be used while they are
tapped (with specific exceptions, of which this is not one).
>
>--
>
>Regards, | ``"I can't suit myself," said Weinbaum, a little petulantly.
>Kers. | "I work for the Government".'' - Blish, "The Quincunx of Time".
As always, I hope that I am both clear and correct in my explanation.
--
Blessed Be
--Adilor--
(James Wenzel)
jg...@virginia.edu
George W. Bayles
[snip]
: >The Cauldron may be tapped; that doesn't stop
: >you casting the spell.
: False: if the Cauldron is tapped, you cannot use the spell on it because
: any non-creature (non-land) artifacts cannot be used while they are
: tapped (with specific exceptions, of which this is not one).
If this were true you'd never be able to use the mana to cast the spell.
Fortunately, it isn't true:
"The ability to play the spell you stored on the Cauldron, and the fact that
you get to play it, is locked in by the effect of putting it there, not by a
continuous ability of the Cauldron. Therefore you may play the spell regardless
of whether the Cauldron is tapped, and regardless of whether you lose control
of the Cauldron later. You must follow all normal rules for playing the spell,
so cannot play a stored Fireball during your opponent' turn, for example."
Mike Marcelais
| If the card can be played as though it is in your hand, does that mean
| you can discard it if Disrupting sceptred? (CF also elkin bottle)
No. `play' means: cast if it is a spell or lay it as a land. The card
is never _in_ your hand and anything which looks for cards in hand will
not see the Iced card.
The Cauldron basically breaks the rule `you can only play cards
in your hand'
--
+------------------------+----------------------------+
| Mike Marcelais | mrma...@eos.ncsu.edu |
| Moonstone Dragon | Magic: The Gathering Judge |
| -==(UDIC)==- | Author of ChrHack 2.3 |
+-----------------------------------------------------+
Chris Dollin
Yes, you do need to tap the cauldron to cast the spell on it. Read the
card. it says...Tap: Spell on Ice Cauldron.....
Not on my Cauldron, it doesn't.
You tap it to add a charge counter to the Cauldron, and (at the same time)
put a spell card in castable limbo. Or you tap it to remove the charge counter
and gain the mana paid to charge the Cauldron.
Youever, ``you may play that spell as though it were in your hand''. No
Cauldron-tapping required. The Cauldron may be tapped; that doesn't stop
you casting the spell.
--
Charles Hoot
>Why is it good? Before the end of your turn, tap 11, 10 pt fireball.
> My turn. untap. tap 10. Fireball you for 20. Good game.
Somewhere in here you need to tap the cauldron to get the 11 mana.
Now this happens as an instant, so my response is to shatter/disenchant/...
your cauldron. Your fireball goes away. Your Cauldron goes away.
Unfortunately, you get the mana. Yes indeed, you have 11 mana that
can not be spent on anything other than the fireball which was on your
cauldron. The net result is that you take 11 points of mana burn,
have no fireball to cast and if you jumped the gun and tapped your lands
before the Cauldron, you have 10 other mana to dispose of somehow.
If you're going to put big sorceries on the Cauldron, you had better
have a way of protecting it from destruction, or you are asking for
mana burn.
C Hoot
Chris Mattern
>
> ke...@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Chris Dollin) wrote:
> >In article <4ggl3f$n...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> n2...@aol.com (N2O O2) writes:
> >
> > Yes, you do need to tap the cauldron to cast the spell on it. Read the
> > card. it says...Tap: Spell on Ice Cauldron.....
> >
> >Not on my Cauldron, it doesn't.
> >
> >You tap it to add a charge counter to the Cauldron, and (at the same time)
> >put a spell card in castable limbo.
>
>
> >Or you tap it to remove the charge counter
> >and gain the mana paid to charge the Cauldron.
>
>
> >
> >However, ``you may play that spell as though it were in your hand''. No
> >Cauldron-tapping required.
>
> True as well.
>
> >The Cauldron may be tapped; that doesn't stop
> >you casting the spell.
>
> any non-creature (non-land) artifacts cannot be used while they are
> tapped (with specific exceptions, of which this is not one).
>
> >
No, I looked this up on mox.perl. You *can* cast the spell if
the Cauldron is tapped. If you stop to think for a moment, it
doesn't make any sense for it any other way, because any other
way means that an Ice Cauldron by itself can never use the mana
put into the mana counter.
Chris Mattern
Mike Marcelais
| False: if the Cauldron is tapped, you cannot use the spell on it because
| any non-creature (non-land) artifacts cannot be used while they are
| tapped (with specific exceptions, of which this is not one).
Actually, that's not true in this case. The Cauldron gives the ability to
be cast the spell to the spell card itself hence the Cauldron doesn't need to
stay around being untapped. It is not a continuous effect of the cauldron
nor is it an activated ability of the cauldron.
If you think about it, this is the only way it can work because when the
tap the cauldron to get the mana, then the cauldron is tapped and you
couldn't cast the spell (by your interpretation) meaning that there would
be no way to use the Cauldron effectively w/o Twiddle, etc
James Wenzel
>My spies tell me that James Wenzel (jg...@virginia.edu) wrote:
>| False: if the Cauldron is tapped, you cannot use the spell on it because
>| any non-creature (non-land) artifacts cannot be used while they are
>| tapped (with specific exceptions, of which this is not one).
>
>Actually, that's not true in this case. The Cauldron gives the ability to
>be cast the spell to the spell card itself hence the Cauldron doesn't need to
>stay around being untapped. It is not a continuous effect of the cauldron
>nor is it an activated ability of the cauldron.
>
>If you think about it, this is the only way it can work because when the
>tap the cauldron to get the mana, then the cauldron is tapped and you
>couldn't cast the spell (by your interpretation) meaning that there would
>be no way to use the Cauldron effectively w/o Twiddle, etc
Thanks for the correction. I'll make a note of it.
>
>--
>
>+------------------------+----------------------------+
>| Mike Marcelais | mrma...@eos.ncsu.edu |
>| Moonstone Dragon | Magic: The Gathering Judge |
>| -==(UDIC)==- | Author of ChrHack 2.3 |
>+-----------------------------------------------------+
Andrew W Greenwood
: If the card can be played as though it is in your hand, does that mean
: you can discard it if Disrupting sceptred? (CF also elkin bottle)
Nope. Only cards actually in your hand may be discarded if someone uses a
Disrupting sceptre on you. Since the cards on an Ice Cauldron or from
Elkin Bottle are not actually in your hand, you may not discard them.
-Scarecrow
Dennis F. Hefferman
|False: if the Cauldron is tapped, you cannot use the spell on it because
|any non-creature (non-land) artifacts cannot be used while they are
|tapped (with specific exceptions, of which this is not one).
You're not using the Cauldron when you cast the spell stored on it.
You're only using the Cauldron when you tap it to put on a charge counter or to
take one off.
|As always, I hope that I am both clear and correct in my explanation.
So much for hope.
Please, before embarassing yourself any further, go read the rulings.
Cameron Hutchison
Does this mean I cannot discard a card voluntarily from the cauldron
or elkin bottle, due to a lands edge being out?
Cheers
--
Cameron Hutchison (ca...@zip.com.au) | Beware of the clams
GCS d--@ -p+ c++(++++) l++ u+ e+ m+(-) s n- h++ f? !g w+ t r+
'Ian' G. Sulham
> In article <4ggl3f$n...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> n2...@aol.com (N2O O2) writes:
> >Yes, you do need to tap the cauldron to cast the spell on it. Read the
> >card. it says...Tap: Spell on Ice Cauldron.....
> >
> >Why is it good? Before the end of your turn, tap 11, 10 pt fireball. My
> >turn. untap. tap 10. fireball you for 20. Good game.
>
> Sorry, you still *cannot* play a Sorcery during your opponent's turn.
You don't play a sorcery - ice caldroun is like a spell battery, similar
to mana batteries. You load it with a spell and mana, and can later use
both to some effect. He 'loaded' a 10pt fireball before the end of his
opponent's turn, then fired it with a 10pt addition to the original
fireball (ie, doubled the size of the fireball)
Matt "Ian" Sulham, red...@u.washington.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide
the bodies of those who pissed me off.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Pick
>In article <4ggl3f$n...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> n2...@aol.com (N2O O2) writes:
>>Yes, you do need to tap the cauldron to cast the spell on it. Read the
>>card. it says...Tap: Spell on Ice Cauldron.....
>>
>>Why is it good? Before the end of your turn, tap 11, 10 pt fireball. My
>>turn. untap. tap 10. fireball you for 20. Good game.
> Sorry, you still *cannot* play a Sorcery during your opponent's turn.
He never claims that one can. He puts a fireball on the cauldron
(plus Red + 10) during his opponents turn then casts the fireball
with the mana on the cauldron (plus ten more) during his turn.
--
_____________Paul A Pick________...@dragon.acadiau.ca_________
R: Do you want to play Questions? G: How do you play that?
R: You have to ask questions. G: Statement! One-Love.
R: I'm not going to play if you're going to be like that... -R&GAreDead