Island Sanctuary v Sylvan Library
do...@netcom.com
One player had both a Sylvan Library and a Island Sanctuary in play, as
well as a Vexing Arcanix. They would decline to draw a card, yet use the
'extra two cards' from the Sylvan Library to take a peek at what was
coming up. Then, they would Vex themselves and correctly guess what the
coming card was, drawing for only 3 mana!
Is this a legal chain of events? The only word that could possibly make a
difference as far as I saw was that the Sylvan Library allows drawing of
two 'extra' cards, perhaps implying that a first draw had to be made.
Thoughts are appreciated.
--
Check out Fabian Thylmann's Tournament Calendar at
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/nathan
Mike Stern
: Last night I was judging a tourney and the following situation came up.
: One player had both a Sylvan Library and a Island Sanctuary in play, as
: well as a Vexing Arcanix. They would decline to draw a card, yet use the
: 'extra two cards' from the Sylvan Library to take a peek at what was
: coming up. Then, they would Vex themselves and correctly guess what the
: coming card was, drawing for only 3 mana!
: Is this a legal chain of events? The only word that could possibly make a
: difference as far as I saw was that the Sylvan Library allows drawing of
: two 'extra' cards, perhaps implying that a first draw had to be made.
It seems legal. The player _is_ drawing one less card than he would
otherwise draw, which keeps Island Sanctuary in effect. I can understand
your frustration... looking up the info for this three-card combo was
a lot of work.
--
Mike Stern
ster...@netcom.com
"A waste is such a terrible thing to mind"
Anonymous Garbage Dump Supervisor
Jimmy McDonald
>Last night I was judging a tourney and the following situation came up.
>
>One player had both a Sylvan Library and a Island Sanctuary in play, as
>well as a Vexing Arcanix. They would decline to draw a card, yet use the
>'extra two cards' from the Sylvan Library to take a peek at what was
>coming up. Then, they would Vex themselves and correctly guess what the
>coming card was, drawing for only 3 mana!
>
>Is this a legal chain of events? The only word that could possibly make a
>difference as far as I saw was that the Sylvan Library allows drawing of
>two 'extra' cards, perhaps implying that a first draw had to be made.
>
seeing that its just a thought.. or in other words, an opinion..
it sounds reasonable to me.. because it is similar to using
island sanctuary with howling mine to still draw cards while using
the effect of the I.S.
jm
Mike Marcelais
| Last night I was judging a tourney and the following situation came up.
| One player had both a Sylvan Library and a Island Sanctuary in play, as
| well as a Vexing Arcanix. They would decline to draw a card, yet use the
| 'extra two cards' from the Sylvan Library to take a peek at what was
| coming up. Then, they would Vex themselves and correctly guess what the
| coming card was, drawing for only 3 mana!
| Is this a legal chain of events? The only word that could possibly make a
| difference as far as I saw was that the Sylvan Library allows drawing of
| two 'extra' cards, perhaps implying that a first draw had to be made.
Yes, this is legal. The `two extra' means that neither one of those two
draws counts as your `normal' draw for the turn (contrast with Aladdin's Lamp
whose draws do replace a normal draw).
Nifty (three card) combo.
--
+------------------------+----------------------------+
| Mike Marcelais | mrma...@eos.ncsu.edu |
| Moonstone Dragon | Magic: The Gathering Judge |
| -==(UDIC)==- | Author of ChrHack 2.3 |
+-----------------------------------------------------+
Michael Smith
If you can take 0 damage, why can't you draw 0 cards? And if you can
draw 0 cards, why can't you draw an extra 2 cards over and above the 0?
Just a thought on my part. I'd love an official ruling on this.
Jimmy McDonald (jmcd...@iacnet.com) wrote:
: do...@netcom.com wrote:
: >Last night I was judging a tourney and the following situation came up.
: >
: >One player had both a Sylvan Library and a Island Sanctuary in play, as
: >well as a Vexing Arcanix. They would decline to draw a card, yet use the
: >'extra two cards' from the Sylvan Library to take a peek at what was
: >coming up. Then, they would Vex themselves and correctly guess what the
: >coming card was, drawing for only 3 mana!
: >
: >Is this a legal chain of events? The only word that could possibly make a
: >difference as far as I saw was that the Sylvan Library allows drawing of
: >two 'extra' cards, perhaps implying that a first draw had to be made.
: >
: >Thoughts are appreciated.
Brian Mudge
>: do...@netcom.com wrote:
>: >Last night I was judging a tourney and the following situation came up.
>: >
>: >One player had both a Sylvan Library and a Island Sanctuary in play, as
>: >well as a Vexing Arcanix. They would decline to draw a card, yet use the
>: >'extra two cards' from the Sylvan Library to take a peek at what was
>: >coming up. Then, they would Vex themselves and correctly guess what the
>: >coming card was, drawing for only 3 mana!
>: >
>: >Is this a legal chain of events? The only word that could possibly make a
>: >difference as far as I saw was that the Sylvan Library allows drawing of
>: >two 'extra' cards, perhaps implying that a first draw had to be made.
No, it's not a legal chain of events. The library only triggers on a
"draw". Since the Sanctuary is giving you the choice of giving up
your draw, you don't have a draw for the library to trigger on.
That is to say, the event that the library looks for never happens.
Bri...
Mike Marcelais
This is not correct (the original poster is correct). The library doesn't
`trigger' anything...it is merely a fast effect that you use during your
draw phase: You draw 2 cards, then either pay life or replace _any_ two
cards you have drawn this turn. It does not `modify' the normal draw
directly and if you draw less (or more) than your 1 normal draw, it will
not have any effect on the Sylvan libraries ability to let you draw/replace
2 cards.
Brian Mudge
Hmmm. Guess I should RTFC.
Text:
You may draw two extra cards during your draw phase. If you do so,
put two of the cards drawn this turn back on top of your library (in any
order) or pay 4 life per card not replaced. Effects that prevent or
redirect damage cannot be used to counter this loss of life.
Rulings:
* You may wait until after your normal draw before deciding whether or
not to use this effect. [Duellist #2, P. 9]
Oh well, live and learn.
Bri...
Ingo Warnke
: Last night I was judging a tourney and the following situation came up.
: One player had both a Sylvan Library and a Island Sanctuary in play, as
: well as a Vexing Arcanix. They would decline to draw a card, yet use the
: 'extra two cards' from the Sylvan Library to take a peek at what was
: coming up. Then, they would Vex themselves and correctly guess what the
: coming card was, drawing for only 3 mana!
: Is this a legal chain of events? The only word that could possibly make a
: difference as far as I saw was that the Sylvan Library allows drawing of
: two 'extra' cards, perhaps implying that a first draw had to be made.
I don't see a problem with that. The extra is just there to remind people
that a Sylvan Library does not replace the usual draw in their draw phase,
it is an entirely new effect.
Ingo Warnke
Thomas R Wylie
Michael Smith <necr...@rrnet.com> wrote:
>Well, since we are expressing opinion instead of fact, how about this.
>If you can take 0 damage, why can't you draw 0 cards? And if you can
>draw 0 cards, why can't you draw an extra 2 cards over and above the 0?
>Just a thought on my part. I'd love an official ruling on this.
Actually, you can't take 0 damage.
But, regardless, Sylvan Library is an effect that allows you to draw two
cards, and then requires you to put two cards back, or pay life. The number
of cards you've already drawn is irrelevant, so you can use the ability
even if you're drawn 0 cards.
Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Tarek Jaber
-gary pratt-:)
Benjamin Carter
On a slightly different note... If you have two sylvan libraries in play,
how do they work together?
--
-Ben <bca...@umr.edu>
"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
-- Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943
Ingo Warnke
: | >: >One player had both a Sylvan Library and a Island Sanctuary in play, as
: | >: >'extra two cards' from the Sylvan Library to take a peek at what was
: | >: >coming up. Then, they would Vex themselves and correctly guess what the
: | >: >coming card was, drawing for only 3 mana!
: The library doesn't
: `trigger' anything...it is merely a fast effect that you use during your
: draw phase: You draw 2 cards, then either pay life or replace _any_ two
: cards you have drawn this turn. It does not `modify' the normal draw
Say for some bizzare reason you decide to use the effect of the Sylvan
Library before your normal draw. When the effect resolves, you decline one of
the 2 draws to power your Island Sanctuary. Is this legal? If yes, what about
'putting back 2 card drawn this turn'? You have drawn only one!
Another question, which comes to mind because of the 'you don't have to
track individual cards'-ruling on Recall.
Say in the above example I use Aladdin's Lamp with 1 of the draws to draw
say 3 cards instead of one. One of the cards drawn this way is a Plains
and I put it on the bottom of my library as to the Lamp's effect. Can I now
decide to put a Plains (which was in my hand before all this happened) back
as to the Sylvan Library's effect?
Ingo Warnke
Mike Marcelais
| Mike Marcelais (mrma...@bnr.csc.ncsu.edu) wrote:
| : | >: >One player had both a Sylvan Library and a Island Sanctuary in play, as
| : | >: >well as a Vexing Arcanix. They would decline to draw a card, yet use the
| : | >: >'extra two cards' from the Sylvan Library to take a peek at what was
| : | >: >coming up. Then, they would Vex themselves and correctly guess what the
| : | >: >coming card was, drawing for only 3 mana!
| : The library doesn't
| : `trigger' anything...it is merely a fast effect that you use during your
| : draw phase: You draw 2 cards, then either pay life or replace _any_ two
| : cards you have drawn this turn. It does not `modify' the normal draw
| Say for some bizzare reason you decide to use the effect of the Sylvan
| Library before your normal draw. When the effect resolves, you decline one of
| the 2 draws to power your Island Sanctuary. Is this legal? If yes, what about
| 'putting back 2 card drawn this turn'? You have drawn only one!
You'd lose 4 life because you are unable to return that card you've declined
to your library.
| Another question, which comes to mind because of the 'you don't have to
| track individual cards'-ruling on Recall.
| Say in the above example I use Aladdin's Lamp with 1 of the draws to draw
| say 3 cards instead of one. One of the cards drawn this way is a Plains
| and I put it on the bottom of my library as to the Lamp's effect. Can I now
| decide to put a Plains (which was in my hand before all this happened) back
| as to the Sylvan Library's effect?
No. Um...Recall only requires you to give the names of cards that you plan
on discarding -- it doesn't select which specific cards you are going to
discard at announcement. SL cares about specific cards.
'Ian' G. Sulham
[Snip Wylie and friends' discussion]
> On a slightly different note... If you have two sylvan libraries in play,
> how do they work together?
Probably like this - declare each as a separate effect. Deal with SL #1 -
draw 3 cards (1 normal + 2 from SL #1) and look. If you ** take 2 ** cards
and lose 4 life, you can then use SL #2 to look at the next two cards, one
of which you hadn't see before. It's one of those "digging for X card"
situation tricks to save yourself.
On the other hand, if you've got life to burn, you can tear through your
deck this way, getting anything you want asap
Matt "Ian" Sulham, red...@u.washington.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide
the bodies of those who pissed me off.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Marcelais
| Thomas R Wylie (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote:
| : Michael Smith <necr...@rrnet.com> wrote:
| : >Well, since we are expressing opinion instead of fact, how about this.
| : >If you can take 0 damage, why can't you draw 0 cards? And if you can
| : >draw 0 cards, why can't you draw an extra 2 cards over and above the 0?
| : >Just a thought on my part. I'd love an official ruling on this.
| : Actually, you can't take 0 damage.
| : But, regardless, Sylvan Library is an effect that allows you to draw two
| : cards, and then requires you to put two cards back, or pay life. The number
| : of cards you've already drawn is irrelevant, so you can use the ability
| : even if you're drawn 0 cards.
| : Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
| : aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
| On a slightly different note... If you have two sylvan libraries in play,
| how do they work together?
You can (in any order):
Draw your normal 1 card.
Draw 2 and then replace 2 {or pay life}.
Draw 2 and then replace 2 {or pay life}.
Unless the top of your library changes bewteen the two uses of the Sylvan,
there is no difference between having 1 SL and 2 SL unless you spend life.
do...@netcom.com
: Michael Smith <necr...@rrnet.com> wrote:
: >Well, since we are expressing opinion instead of fact, how about this.
: >If you can take 0 damage, why can't you draw 0 cards? And if you can
: >draw 0 cards, why can't you draw an extra 2 cards over and above the 0?
: >Just a thought on my part. I'd love an official ruling on this.
: Actually, you can't take 0 damage.
: But, regardless, Sylvan Library is an effect that allows you to draw two
: cards, and then requires you to put two cards back, or pay life. The number
: of cards you've already drawn is irrelevant, so you can use the ability
: even if you're drawn 0 cards.
This implies that what most people do with a Library in play is
incorrect. Everyone I know has been playing that instead of drawing your
normally allotted one card per turn, you draw three, and decide which of
those three to keep, replacing the other two.
It seems what we should be doing is first, drawing TWO cards, looking at
them, then replacing them. Then, proceed to your normal draw and take
only one card. Or alternately, drawing your one normal card, then
drawing two cards and putting them back.
If this is the case, the library is significantly less powerful since you
can only look two cards deep, rather than three (though it is still
useful). This sound right to you all?
--
Friday's at First! SF Bay Sanctioned Type I tournaments held at
Who's on First? every other Friday at 7:30pm. Call Jeff at
510-582-1893 for more information. Hope to see you there!
Paul Barclay
> : | >: >One player had both a Sylvan Library and a Island Sanctuary in play, as
> : | >: >well as a Vexing Arcanix. They would decline to draw a card, yet use the
> : | >: >'extra two cards' from the Sylvan Library to take a peek at what was
> : | >: >coming up. Then, they would Vex themselves and correctly guess what the
> : | >: >coming card was, drawing for only 3 mana!
>
> : The library doesn't
> : `trigger' anything...it is merely a fast effect that you use during your
> : draw phase: You draw 2 cards, then either pay life or replace _any_ two
> : cards you have drawn this turn. It does not `modify' the normal draw
>
> Say for some bizzare reason you decide to use the effect of the Sylvan
> Library before your normal draw. When the effect resolves, you decline one of
> the 2 draws to power your Island Sanctuary. Is this legal? If yes, what about
> 'putting back 2 card drawn this turn'? You have drawn only one!
This is legal, so you would end up paying 4 life. However, if you
only had 3 life, this would cause an irresolvable situation (you can't
pay life below zero, but you have to pay 4 life, whatever happens).
Having 3 life can't prevent you from invoking the Island Sanctuary
or the Sylvan Library, either. I suggest that Sylvan Library's wording
needs to be changed from "pay 4 life" to "lose 4 life".
> Another question, which comes to mind because of the 'you don't have to
> track individual cards'-ruling on Recall.
> Say in the above example I use Aladdin's Lamp with 1 of the draws to draw
> say 3 cards instead of one. One of the cards drawn this way is a Plains
> and I put it on the bottom of my library as to the Lamp's effect. Can I now
> decide to put a Plains (which was in my hand before all this happened) back
> as to the Sylvan Library's effect?
Ah. Erm, no rulings on this one. Please yourself, I guess :-).
Seriously, though, Sylvan Library only wants cards drawn this turn,
and that particular Plains does not have this quality, so my instincts
would be to say "no, you can't do this".
Paul Barclay.
P.S. Tom, both of these situations need rulings.
gs...@netspace.net.au
>
> Thomas R Wylie (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote:
>
> : Michael Smith <necr...@rrnet.com> wrote:
> : >Well, since we are expressing opinion instead of fact, how about this.
> : >If you can take 0 damage, why can't you draw 0 cards? And if you can
> : >draw 0 cards, why can't you draw an extra 2 cards over and above the 0?
> : >Just a thought on my part. I'd love an official ruling on this.
>
> : Actually, you can't take 0 damage.
>
> : But, regardless, Sylvan Library is an effect that allows you to draw two
> : cards, and then requires you to put two cards back, or pay life. The number
> : of cards you've already drawn is irrelevant, so you can use the ability
> : even if you're drawn 0 cards.
>
> : aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
>
> On a slightly different note... If you have two sylvan libraries in play,
> how do they work together?
>
No, they resolve seperately.
1. Draw 3 cards
2. Put 2 back or pay life
3. Draw the same 2 cards again (or different if you paid life)
4. Put them back again.
David DeLaney
>This implies that what most people do with a Library in play is
>incorrect. Everyone I know has been playing that instead of drawing your
>normally allotted one card per turn, you draw three, and decide which of
>those three to keep, replacing the other two.
This is, indeed, incorrect.
>It seems what we should be doing is first, drawing TWO cards, looking at
>them, then replacing them. Then, proceed to your normal draw and take
>only one card. Or alternately, drawing your one normal card, then
>drawing two cards and putting them back.
This is the correct version, except it's not "putting them back"; it's
"putting back two of the cards you've drawn so far this turn" [card text].
If you use your normal draw first, you have a choice of three to put two
back from; if you don't, you have to put back the two you just drew [or
pay life to keep].
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeableURLAPvi
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
George W. Bayles
[snip]
: This is the correct version, except it's not "putting them back"; it's
: "putting back two of the cards you've drawn so far this turn" [card text].
: If you use your normal draw first, you have a choice of three to put two
: back from; if you don't, you have to put back the two you just drew [or
: pay life to keep].
So if you had a Howling Mine out you could take your normal draw, take one
for the howler, and then 2 more for the Sylvan. Then you'd put back any 2
of the 4 you've drawn or pay life.
do...@netcom.com
: do...@netcom.com writes:
: >This implies that what most people do with a Library in play is
: >incorrect. Everyone I know has been playing that instead of drawing your
: >normally allotted one card per turn, you draw three, and decide which of
: >those three to keep, replacing the other two.
: This is, indeed, incorrect.
: >It seems what we should be doing is first, drawing TWO cards, looking at
: >them, then replacing them. Then, proceed to your normal draw and take
: >only one card. Or alternately, drawing your one normal card, then
: >drawing two cards and putting them back.
: This is the correct version, except it's not "putting them back"; it's
: "putting back two of the cards you've drawn so far this turn" [card text].
: If you use your normal draw first, you have a choice of three to put two
: back from; if you don't, you have to put back the two you just drew [or
: pay life to keep].
Maybe I should RTFC, sheesh. Thanks for the clarification.
Ray Miller
>From: do...@netcom.com
>Subject: Re: Island Sanctuary v Sylvan Library
>Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 22:51:01 GMT
>Thomas R Wylie (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote:
>: Michael Smith <necr...@rrnet.com> wrote:
>: >Well, since we are expressing opinion instead of fact, how about this.
>: >If you can take 0 damage, why can't you draw 0 cards? And if you can
>: >draw 0 cards, why can't you draw an extra 2 cards over and above the 0?
>: >Just a thought on my part. I'd love an official ruling on this.
>: Actually, you can't take 0 damage.
>: But, regardless, Sylvan Library is an effect that allows you to draw two
>: cards, and then requires you to put two cards back, or pay life. The number
>: of cards you've already drawn is irrelevant, so you can use the ability
>: even if you're drawn 0 cards.
>This implies that what most people do with a Library in play is
>incorrect. Everyone I know has been playing that instead of drawing your
>normally allotted one card per turn, you draw three, and decide which of
>those three to keep, replacing the other two.
>It seems what we should be doing is first, drawing TWO cards, looking at
>them, then replacing them. Then, proceed to your normal draw and take
>only one card. Or alternately, drawing your one normal card, then
>drawing two cards and putting them back.
>If this is the case, the library is significantly less powerful since you
>can only look two cards deep, rather than three (though it is still
>useful). This sound right to you all?
No. If your normal draw is 1 card, the library allows you to draw three
cards. If your normal draw is 0 cards the library allows you to draw 2 cards.
I see nothing here that suggests that your draw is split as you suggest.
Ray
>--
Thomas R Wylie
<do...@netcom.com> wrote:
>This implies that what most people do with a Library in play is
>incorrect. Everyone I know has been playing that instead of drawing your
>normally allotted one card per turn, you draw three, and decide which of
>those three to keep, replacing the other two.
This is, in fact, incorrect. It's a good-enough gloss if you have no other
draw-affecting cards in play, but it leads to incorrect interactions with
cards such as Howling Mines, or duplicate Sylvan Libraries.
>It seems what we should be doing is first, drawing TWO cards, looking at
>them, then replacing them. Then, proceed to your normal draw and take
>only one card. Or alternately, drawing your one normal card, then
>drawing two cards and putting them back.
>
>If this is the case, the library is significantly less powerful since you
>can only look two cards deep, rather than three (though it is still
>useful). This sound right to you all?
What you would normally do is take your normal draw, and then use the Sylvan
Library, meaning you're looking three cards deep into the library (since
you first draw one card, then draw another two).
do...@netcom.com
: >From: do...@netcom.com
: >: Michael Smith <necr...@rrnet.com> wrote:
: >: But, regardless, Sylvan Library is an effect that allows you to draw two
: >: cards, and then requires you to put two cards back, or pay life. The number
: >: of cards you've already drawn is irrelevant, so you can use the ability
: >: even if you're drawn 0 cards.
: >This implies that what most people do with a Library in play is
: >incorrect. Everyone I know has been playing that instead of drawing your
: >normally allotted one card per turn, you draw three, and decide which of
: >those three to keep, replacing the other two.
: >It seems what we should be doing is first, drawing TWO cards, looking at
: >them, then replacing them. Then, proceed to your normal draw and take
: >only one card. Or alternately, drawing your one normal card, then
: >drawing two cards and putting them back.
: >If this is the case, the library is significantly less powerful since you
: >can only look two cards deep, rather than three (though it is still
: >useful). This sound right to you all?
: No. If your normal draw is 1 card, the library allows you to draw three
: cards. If your normal draw is 0 cards the library allows you to draw 2 cards.
: I see nothing here that suggests that your draw is split as you suggest.
Actually, the Library allows you to draw two cards, SEPARATE from any
other draws you make. The key here is that the library says, "You may
draw two extra cards during your draw phase, _then either put two of the
cards drawn this turn back on top of your library (in any order)_, or lose
4 lives per card not replaced." This implies that you may put ANY two
cards you've drawn this turn back on your library, even ones not drawn
due to the Library's effect. But, in practice, you can easily consider it
to be drawing three cards, then replacing any two. The net result is
usually the same.