can extirpate be used to mana burn
neun...@yahoo.fr
if player A already has, say, an "armageddon" in his
graveyard and then, during his turn, takes four mana,
amongst (which there's at least one white mana) can
player B, upon suspecting that another armageddon
is coming, play the split-second extirpate (choosing
armageddon)?
Would that work to prevent the armageddon?
If it can prevent the armageddon, what happen to
the four mana that player A took?
I think my question is (but I'm not sure, you tell me
if it makes sense :) : "can extirpate be played
after player A took the mana, but before Armageddon
is on the stack?"
Now in case this works, what if player A has a krosan
grip in his graveyard and takes three mana (including
one green), can player B play "extirpate" (choosing
krosan grip) ?
And, last but not least, what would be a scenario
to "mana burn" an opponent playing a dragonstorm
deck, knowing that the opponent has already one
dragonstorm card in his graveyard and knowing you
have one extirpate ?
Thanks in advance for all the infos,
Driss
l0ne
> if player A already has, say, an "armageddon" in his
> graveyard and then, during his turn, takes four mana,
> amongst (which there's at least one white mana) can
> player B, upon suspecting that another armageddon
> is coming, play the split-second extirpate (choosing
> armageddon)?
>
> Would that work to prevent the armageddon?
When a player can take actions during a turn, he is said to have
"priority". When a player has priority, he can do a number of things; he
can play mana abilities, or announce a spell. Only when he passes
priority can the opponent act -- in this case, if he has priority, he
can either use the mana abilities of his lands and then use the mana to
play the Armageddon and pass, or announce the Armageddon and pay with
the mana abilities as part of the announcement.
In neither of these cases the other player is able to play the Split
Second spell before the Armageddon is cast. This works even if Player A
gets priority during another player's turn, assuming he does this with
an instant or ability, unlike Armageddon, the sorcery (as long as the
other player didn't play a Split Second card before passing).
--
- ∞
neun...@yahoo.fr
...
> When a player can take actions during a turn, he is said to have
> "priority". When a player has priority, he can do a number of things; he
> can play mana abilities, or announce a spell. Only when he passes
> priority can the opponent act -- in this case, if he has priority, he
> can either use the mana abilities of his lands and then use the mana to
> play the Armageddon and pass, or announce the Armageddon and pay with
> the mana abilities as part of the announcement.
>
> In neither of these cases the other player is able to play the Split
> Second spell before the Armageddon is cast.
ok, so the Armageddon is cast and goes to the stack?
At this point playerd B could, for example, play a counterspell which
would, upon resolving, remove Armageddon from the stack?
What if at this point player B plays Extirpate? What happens to
the physical Armageddon card that player A just casted? I understand
now that Armageddon is on the stack and will resolve unless player
B counters it, but what happens to the card? Is it already in the
graveyard? Is it still in player A's hand? Is it removed from the
game by Extirpate?
David DeLaney
>if player A already has, say, an "armageddon" in his
>graveyard and then, during his turn, takes four mana,
>amongst (which there's at least one white mana) can
>player B, upon suspecting that another armageddon
>is coming, play the split-second extirpate (choosing
>armageddon)?
If player A currently has priority, player B can't do _anything_ right now.
Only one player at most ever has priority at a time, and players can only
take actions if they have priority (or if some card is telling them they
can).
Similarly, if player A is currently tapping mana because he's in the middle
of an announcement or resolution that says he has to, or can, pay mana? Player
B can't do ANYTHING right now.
In sum? Player B CANNOT "jump in in between player A tapping for mana
and player A doing whatever he was planning to do with the mana and try to
do something before player A can do the next thing player A planned to do".
Magic is NOT a game of "Slap" - the first to shout does NOT get to do the
next thing.
Player B has to wait until he has priority before he can cast a spell, tap
for mana, play an ability, or take a special action; if A has priority right
now, A is gonna be the one getting priority UNTIL A actually -passes-. Once
A passes, B can do something (unless everyone just passed sequentially). So
no, B can't interfere in between A getting mana for ... something unknown as
yet ... and A casting whatever spell it is.
>I think my question is (but I'm not sure, you tell me
>if it makes sense :) : "can extirpate be played
>after player A took the mana, but before Armageddon
>is on the stack?"
No. Not unless A _passed_ after tapping the mana. And A in general will not
do so ... because if he does, and the stack is currently empty? All _B_ has
to do is ALSO pass to make A take 4 manaburn ... because if all players pass
in succession with the stack empty, the current step or phase ENDS and the
next one begins. And if this is Main phase, there's no steps involved; everyone
passing in succession with the stack empty makes Main phase end, which involves
mana draining from pools and burning players, and either Combat or End phase
begin, depending on which Main phase this was.
You can't "jump in in the middle of another player doing something", ever, in
Magic; that's not how the timing system works.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from d...@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
>On Feb 27, 6:22 pm, millen...@gmail.com (l0ne) wrote:
>> When a player can take actions during a turn, he is said to have
>> "priority". When a player has priority, he can do a number of things; he
>> can play mana abilities, or announce a spell. Only when he passes
>> priority can the opponent act -- in this case, if he has priority, he
>> can either use the mana abilities of his lands and then use the mana to
>> play the Armageddon and pass, or announce the Armageddon and pay with
>> the mana abilities as part of the announcement.
>>
>> In neither of these cases the other player is able to play the Split
>> Second spell before the Armageddon is cast.
>
>ok, so the Armageddon is cast and goes to the stack?
Assuming A doesn't inexplicably pass after getting the mana for it, yes it
does. Putting the spell on the stack is the very first part of announcing it
(409.1a).
>At this point playerd B could, for example, play a counterspell which
>would, upon resolving, remove Armageddon from the stack?
Yep. That would be the primary way to interfere with A's playing of a spell;
trying to "pre-emptively strike" the spell by interfering with paying the
cost, or getting the mana, in general Does Not Work.
>What if at this point player B plays Extirpate? What happens to
>the physical Armageddon card that player A just casted? I understand
>now that Armageddon is on the stack and will resolve unless player
>B counters it, but what happens to the card? Is it already in the
>graveyard? Is it still in player A's hand? Is it removed from the
>game by Extirpate?
The card's on the stack, with the spell. (409.1a again) Since that's not
one of the places Extirpate searches for cards, an Extirpate in response
will get the Armageddon in A's graveyard, but won't do anything to the
Armageddon spell or card on the stack. In general, something has to SAY
it'll counter a spell (or ability) on the stack to be able to do so -
fiddling with the source of an ability won't counter the ability, and
neither will fiddling with wherever the mana came from, or whatever else
was used to pay costs.
So, in order, "the Armageddon in A's graveyard, plus any B wants to remove
from A's hand or library, get removed from the game and A's deck gets
shuffled"; "it sits there on the stack until the spell resolves or is
countered or otherwise leaves the stack"; "the card is on the stack with
the spell"; "no, it's not in the graveyard yet"; "no, it's not in A's hand
any more"; "no, it doesn't get touched by Extirpate ... unless of course
something ELSE manages to counter it before Extirpate can resolve, which
isn't too likely but could happen, because then the card would be in the
graveyard before Extirpate started looking there".
neun...@yahoo.fr
Excellent Dave,
thanks a lot for taking the time to explain this in detail,
now I understand it much better :)
See you soon on r.g.t-c.m.r.,
Driss
Willful Wizard
into strategy, but there are rules issues buried in there also.
> And, last but not least, what would be a scenario
> to "mana burn" an opponent playing a dragonstorm
> deck, knowing that the opponent has already one
> dragonstorm card in his graveyard and knowing you
> have one extirpate ?
Everything thats been said about priority still applies, namely, you
can not normally intervene between a person adding mana to their mana
pool and using it for a spell, because mana abilities (tapping land)
do not use the stack.
BUT, mana abilities are not the only way a Dragonstorm deck gets mana.
They also tend to use things like:
Seething Song
2R
Instant
Add RRRRR to your mana pool.
This is a spell, and the person who played the spell must pass
priority, thus giving you a chance to respond, in order for it to
resolve and them to get the mana. This is where you would want to do
some math... if this gets them close to the critical amount of mana
(for Dragonstorm its 9) then you should play Extripate on the
Dragonstorm in the graveyard while the mana spell is still on the
stack. If you play it then, they won't yet have the mana to play the
Dragonstorm, and Extirpate will get the copy in their hand. Then the
mana spell will resolve and they will either have to use it or mana
burn.
Things get a little more complicated with another card Dragonstorm
uses:
Chromatic Star
1
Artifact
1, T, Sacrifice Chromatic Star: Add one mana of any color to your mana
pool. When Chromatic Star is put into a graveyard from play, draw a
card.
If they sac the Chromatic Star for mana, its a mana ability just like
tapping a land, and won't use the stack. They'll have the mana and be
able to play instants before you can respond. Luckily, Dragonstorm is
sorcery and they will have to give you a chance to respond so the card
drawing ability will resolve and the stack will be empty.
Theres another version of this card:
Chromatic Sphere
1
Artifact
1, T, Sacrifice Chromatic Sphere: Add one mana of any color to your
mana pool. Draw a card.
I THINK (and would love for someone to confirm) that the one ability
here counts as a mana ability and you won't have a chance to play
Extripate before they get the mana and the card, and have a chance to
use the mana.
I think this was more along the lines you were thinking. Hope it
helps.
-Will
Zoe Stephenson
> Everyone seems to have missed this part so I'll tackle it. I drift
> into strategy, but there are rules issues buried in there also.
> > And, last but not least, what would be a scenario
> > to "mana burn" an opponent playing a dragonstorm
> > deck, knowing that the opponent has already one
> > dragonstorm card in his graveyard and knowing you
> > have one extirpate ?
> Everything thats been said about priority still applies, namely, you
> can not normally intervene between a person adding mana to their mana
> pool and using it for a spell, because mana abilities (tapping land)
> do not use the stack.
Exactly. You only get to play spells and abilities once the player
with priority hands you priority.
> BUT, mana abilities are not the only way a Dragonstorm deck gets mana.
[...]
> Theres another version of this card:
Chromatic Sphere {1} Artifact
{1}, {T}, Sacrifice Chromatic Sphere: Add one mana of any color to
your mana pool. Draw a card.
> I THINK (and would love for someone to confirm) that the one ability
> here counts as a mana ability and you won't have a chance to play
> Extripate before they get the mana and the card, and have a chance to
> use the mana.
Correct. It's all one ability. The trade-off between this and the
Chromatic Star is that the Chromatic Star gets you a card no matter
how it went to the graveyard from play, but the Chromatic Sphere only
gets you a card when you play its ability.
--
-- Zoe Stephenson, NetRep rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules
Group FAQ: http://www.daeghnao.com/magic/faq/ --
--
neun...@yahoo.fr
> Everyone seems to have missed this part so I'll tackle it. I drift
>
> > And, last but not least, what would be a scenario
> > to "mana burn" an opponent playing a dragonstorm
> > deck, knowing that the opponent has already one
> > dragonstorm card in his graveyard and knowing you
> > have one extirpate ?
>
> Everything thats been said about priority still applies, namely, you
> can not normally intervene between a person adding mana to their mana
> pool and using it for a spell, because mana abilities (tapping land)
> do not use the stack.
>
> BUT, mana abilities are not the only way a Dragonstorm deck gets mana.
> They also tend to use things like:
>
> Seething Song
> 2R
> Instant
> Add RRRRR to your mana pool.
this is exactly what I was thinking of...
Now I start to understand it all better. Back to the rules
for more reading :)
Thanks for your explanations,