Kaervek's Spite ruling
durnik
OK, here's the situation. Let's see if I was right, or if my
friend was. We're playing with pre-release cards from Visions, and just
out of dumb luck, all three of my boosters from the PR event had the rare
Kaervek's Spite in them. :)
Me: 2 Life Opponent: 15 life
My cards in play: 9 swamps, nothing else
My cards in hand: 3 Kaervek's Spite, nothing else
Opponent's cards in play: 1 Cadaverous Knight, nothing else
Opponent's hand: empty
It's now his upkeep, and he's going to kill me this turn unless I kill him
with instants. I tap all 9 swamps and have BBBBBBBBB in my mana pool.
CAN I: cast Spite, respond to that with another Spite, and respond to that
with the third Spite, in a single spell stack?
I guess the question is, when is the cost of discarding one's hand
actually paid? It's a cost, yes, so it's quite unavoidable. But it's kinda
like casting Bolt in response to being Mind Twisted for your entire hand,
which we already know works as a LIFO instant. The fate of the swamps is
largely irrelevant as all 9 mana are in the pool.
Does my opponent lose 15 life and die during his upkeep?
Or do I lose my other two Spites before I have a chance to react with them
as instants, and thus die to his Knight during his main phase?
This will go a long way toward my decision about just how good or bad
Kaervek's Spite is. What do you think, everyone?
- Mike Bahr/dur...@goodnet.com- An independent Equinox representative
Michael Kreviazuk
If I am not mistaken... Kaervek's Spite is worded as follows -
Discard your hand, Sacrifice all permanents, Discard your Hand: Target
Player loses 5 life, effects that prevent... and so on - and all costs
appear before the colon, you must discard your hand before the spell can
begin to resolve and before you can respond.
I do not think you can possibly play more than one of these things
over a span of 3 or 4 turns. It's a pity.
Chris Otwell
Biggest question is this: Does this affect OPPONENT's PERMENANTS as well?
If so, this is a new balance and would ROCK!
Chris
---
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Christopher E. Otwell otw...@rmtc.central.sun.com
Surgeon General's Warning: The opinions that I give may cause great pain to
the general Magic Player, and has been known to cause cancer in unborn 2
year olds that have mother who play Magic. Take the advice at your own risk.
Mike Marcelais
Michael Kreviazuk <kr...@pangea.ca> wrote in article
<01bc01f4$2321d8c0$2c5c2dce@michael>...
| If I am not mistaken... Kaervek's Spite is worded as follows -
| Discard your hand, Sacrifice all permanents, Discard your Hand: Target
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You only have to discard your hand once...
| Player loses 5 life, effects that prevent... and so on - and all costs
| appear before the colon, you must discard your hand before the spell can
| begin to resolve and before you can respond.
Correct.
--
+------------------------+----------------------+
| Mike Marcelais | Excel Developer and |
| mich...@microsoft.com | Magic Rules Guru |
+------------------------+----------------------+
| Opinions expressed in this post are mine, and |
| do not necessarily reflect those of Microsoft |
+--= Moonstone Dragon =---------------= UDIC =--+
Polar Bear
In article <5bf7km$6...@news.goodnet.com>, dur...@goodguy.goodnet.com
(durnik) wrote:
+ OK, here's the situation. Let's see if I was right, or if my
+friend was. We're playing with pre-release cards from Visions, and just
+out of dumb luck, all three of my boosters from the PR event had the rare
+Kaervek's Spite in them. :)
You are an very unfortunate person :)
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ri...@polarbear.tiac.net
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Mike Marcelais
durnik <dur...@goodguy.goodnet.com> wrote in article
<5bf7km$6...@news.goodnet.com>...
|
| OK, here's the situation. Let's see if I was right, or if my
| friend was. We're playing with pre-release cards from Visions, and just
| out of dumb luck, all three of my boosters from the PR event had the rare
| Kaervek's Spite in them. :)
|
| Me: 2 Life Opponent: 15 life
| My cards in play: 9 swamps, nothing else
| My cards in hand: 3 Kaervek's Spite, nothing else
| Opponent's cards in play: 1 Cadaverous Knight, nothing else
| Opponent's hand: empty
|
| It's now his upkeep, and he's going to kill me this turn unless I kill him
| with instants. I tap all 9 swamps and have BBBBBBBBB in my mana pool.
|
| CAN I: cast Spite, respond to that with another Spite, and respond to that
| with the third Spite, in a single spell stack?
No. The cost of announcing the first spite is to discard your entire hand
(etc). When you try to announce the second SPite, you realize that you don't
have any cards in your hand anymore so there is nothing to announce.
|
| I guess the question is, when is the cost of discarding one's hand
| actually paid? It's a cost, yes, so it's quite unavoidable.
Costs are paid when you announce the spell.
Matt Franklin
> I guess the question is, when is the cost of discarding one's hand
Right away. It's like paying the mana. Or a better example is
sacrifice-- you can't sac a creature, but then say, "oh wait, didn't
want to do that, in response to that I'll sac it for this instead."
Eric Whitley
Chris Otwell (otw...@Eng.Sun.COM) wrote:
: Biggest question is this: Does this affect OPPONENT's PERMENANTS as well?
: If so, this is a new balance and would ROCK!
: Chris
What makes you think it affects your opponant? The discards/sacrifices
are part of the cost of the spell. Your opponant doesn't have to sac a
Goblin when you Goblin Grenade. Same deal here.
Inigo.
Erik Osterholm
otw...@Eng.Sun.COM (Chris Otwell) wrote:
>Biggest question is this: Does this affect OPPONENT's PERMENANTS as well?
>If so, this is a new balance and would ROCK!
Uh, no. RTFM, sacrifices can only affect *your* stuff, not your
opponent'. Besides, it's written as a cost, which must be paid with
your stuff.
Erik Osterholm
er...@cy-net.net
Eric Whitley
Eric Whitley (gt7...@acmex.gatech.edu) wrote:
: Chris Otwell (otw...@Eng.Sun.COM) wrote:
: : Biggest question is this: Does this affect OPPONENT's PERMENANTS as well?
: : If so, this is a new balance and would ROCK!
: : Chris
: What makes you think it affects your opponant? The discards/sacrifices
: are part of the cost of the spell. Your opponant doesn't have to sac a
: Goblin when you Goblin Grenade. Same deal here.
: Inigo.
Oh, wait. I see what you're saying. You're saying that because it says
"sacrifice all permanants...", maybe it takes out your opponant's too? If
that's the case, then, no it doesn't affect your opponant's permanants.
You can't sacrifice something you don't control. It would make Hecatomb a
lot cooler if you could.... :)
Inigo
David DeLaney
dur...@goodguy.goodnet.com (durnik) writes:
> OK, here's the situation. Let's see if I was right, or if my
>friend was. We're playing with pre-release cards from Visions, and just
>out of dumb luck, all three of my boosters from the PR event had the rare
>Kaervek's Spite in them. :)
>
>Me: 2 Life Opponent: 15 life
>My cards in play: 9 swamps, nothing else
>My cards in hand: 3 Kaervek's Spite, nothing else
The sacrifice of permanents _and_ the discard of hand are both costs. The
Spite is an instant, true ... but you still have to announce instants in
a batch one after another, and can't announce one that's not in your hand.
When you sac all your permanents and discard your hand for the first Spite,
you discard the other two Spites along with it.
How to work this would require having two of the Spites sitting off "set aside"
because you managed to catch them by casting a Three Wishes. Elkin Bottle
or stealing a Spite from opponent with Grinning Totem would also work.
>I guess the question is, when is the cost of discarding one's hand
>actually paid?
On announcement, like any other cost.
Dave
--
\/David DeLaney d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David DeLaney
In article <5bgdi3$k...@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> otw...@Eng.Sun.COM writes:
>Biggest question is this: Does this affect OPPONENT's PERMENANTS as well?
Hey Mike, time this. _One day_ [or less - I didn't check the date].
Chris, go read your rulebook: you can only sacrifice things you control.
Chris Otwell
I don't know why I thought that, at the time.... I'm sure I looked stupid in
retrospect....
Chris
In article e...@catapult.gatech.edu, gt7...@acmex.gatech.edu (Eric Whitley) writes:
> Chris Otwell (otw...@Eng.Sun.COM) wrote:
>
> : Biggest question is this: Does this affect OPPONENT's PERMENANTS as well?
>
> : If so, this is a new balance and would ROCK!
>
> : Chris
>
> What makes you think it affects your opponant? The discards/sacrifices
> are part of the cost of the spell. Your opponant doesn't have to sac a
> Goblin when you Goblin Grenade. Same deal here.
>
> Inigo.
Chris Otwell
In article n...@gaia.ns.utk.edu, d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu (David DeLaney) writes:
> In article <5bgdi3$k...@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> otw...@Eng.Sun.COM writes:
>
>
> Chris, go read your rulebook: you can only sacrifice things you control.
It was a stupid Idea I had. I don't know why i was thinking that it was a bury all
permenents , not sacrifice...
> Dave
> --
> \/David DeLaney d...@panacea.phys.utk.edu "It's not the pot that grows the flower
> It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
> Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
> http://enigma.phys.utk.edu/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David Schwartz
Yup, you can't Spite in reply to a Spite, since part of the cost
is discarding your hand. (Unless the other Spite is not in your
hand.)
But, Balance, replied with Spite equals fun, fun, fun!
--
________________ Gravity is ______
___@^^^^\ / \ a harsh mistress. / \
@ \_____/ David Schwartz \__________________________/ >
(^^^^^\ _______ ___/
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Ralph
David DeLaney wrote:
> How to work this would require having two of the Spites sitting off "set aside"
> because you managed to catch them by casting a Three Wishes. Elkin Bottle
> or stealing a Spite from opponent with Grinning Totem would also work.
>
Multiple spites are possible during your draw phase using all those
library manipulation cards, most of them are U/B. A deck based on
discard/library control could probably use this as a good finisher, for
example:
Me: During my draw phase, i tap 6 swamps for 6 black, cast K. Spite,
pay the cost, you loose 5 life
You: Ouch
Me: Now I draw a card, oh look, the spite I put there last turn, cast it,
I pay the cost (which happens to be nothing at this point in time, you
loose another 5 life
You: Ouch, dead
Ralph
Sean Porterfield
Chris Otwell wrote:
>
> Biggest question is this: Does this affect OPPONENT's PERMENANTS as well?
>
>
> Chris
>
> > Discard your hand, Sacrifice all permanents, Discard your Hand: Target
> > appear before the colon, you must discard your hand before the spell can
> > begin to resolve and before you can respond.
> > over a span of 3 or 4 turns. It's a pity.
> >
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Christopher E. Otwell otw...@rmtc.central.sun.com
>
> Surgeon General's Warning: The opinions that I give may cause great pain to
> the general Magic Player, and has been known to cause cancer in unborn 2
> year olds that have mother who play Magic. Take the advice at your own risk.
ugly...
MarkDLew
> > Player loses 5 life, effects that prevent... and so on - and all costs
> > appear before the colon, you must discard your hand before the spell
can
> > begin to resolve and before you can respond.
> > I do not think you can possibly play more than one of these
things
> > over a span of 3 or 4 turns. It's a pity.
Yes, but that cuts both ways, since the sacrifices are before the colon
they happen on announcement and they *don't* happen on resolution. So you
reverse the order; rather than respond to the Spite, you Spite in response
to a draw effect. Kaervek's Spite is an Instant, so you can play it in
your draw phase as a response to the draw effect. You discard your hand
upon announcing the spite, and then you get to keep the card you draw.
You could conceivably cast four Spites in one turn, if you had enough mana
available. It would go something like this: Play Greed; do Greed effect;
announce Spite in response to Greed effect (discard hand, sac permanents);
Spite resolves; Greed effect resolves, draw a card - a new Greed; Play
Greed; do Greed effect, draw a card - a new Spite; and then repeat the
loop.
I didn't count it out carefully, but I think you need 44 mana and you pay
14 life on the Greed.
I'm not saying it's practical, just possible....
mdl