Ryan Fuller and Bob Maher Suspended
Orgg99
I do have a little problem with the Bob Maher suspension though.
From Sideboard:
"The whistleblower clause allows people to come forward to the DCI regarding
any tournament fraud they may have committed or been involved in. They must do
so with 100% disclosure and full honesty, and then, depending on other
variables, their suspensions stand to be much smaller than peoples' who do not
turn themselves in."
"Maher did just that, turning himself in to the DCI after Grand Prix - Seattle
many months ago. Maher approached the DCI with some information after his
relationship with Chad Butterfield had soured. He admitted his involvement in
the tournament fraud and expressed regret for his actions: "I wished it never
happened and I'm a different person now." After a long and grueling
investigation, all involved parties have been punished and the false
tournaments are being stricken from the records."
This sounds to me like Maher got tipped that the poop was going to hit the fan
and he turned rat first. Maybe he wanted to beat Butterfield to the punch.
(Something is a little weird there.) So the other two guys get 5 years (Magic
is over for them) and Maher, who was just as guilty, gets a measly 6 months? I
agree that a break for whistleblowers may be helpful to DCI enforcement, but
the whistleblower shouldn't be allowed to skate.
Ed Chauvin IV
Unfortunately, without some direct conclusive evidence that Maher didn't come
forward on his own, not granting him the benefit of the whistleblower clause
would negate the purpose of the clause in that future potential whistleblowers
will be less eager to come forward if they know that the DCI can just say, "We
don't believe you. Go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass Go, do not
collect $200."
Ed Chauvin IV
--
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the Beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
"I always feel left out when someone *else* gets killfiled."
--Terry Austin
Fshrly834
>fan
>>and he turned rat first. Maybe he wanted to beat Butterfield to the punch.
>>(Something is a little weird there.) So the other two guys get 5 years
>(Magic
>>is over for them) and Maher, who was just as guilty, gets a measly 6 months?
>I
>>agree that a break for whistleblowers may be helpful to DCI enforcement, but
>>the whistleblower shouldn't be allowed to skate.
>
>Unfortunately, without some direct conclusive evidence that Maher didn't come
>forward on his own, not granting him the benefit of the whistleblower clause
>would negate the purpose of the clause in that future potential
>whistleblowers
>will be less eager to come forward if they know that the DCI can just say,
>"We
>don't believe you. Go to jail, go directly to jail, do not pass Go, do not
>collect $200."
>
That's why they investigate.
Orgg99
Did you know that it is apparently a very common thing for aspiring Magic pros
to rent a loft somewhere and open up a "store" so that they can then hold DCI
"sanctioned" tournaments and voila! - - build up enough points to qualify for
the big time tourneys by "winning" lots of their own tournaments? I bet many
try to be legitimate and honest about it, but I bet many fabricate whatever
results they need.
I would like to know how many of the pro tour players have little stores
somewhere, or have close friends who have little stores somewhere.
Karl Allen
> One other thing about Maher's infraction.
> Did you know that it is apparently a very common thing for aspiring Magic pros
> to rent a loft somewhere and open up a "store" so that they can then hold DCI
> "sanctioned" tournaments and voila! - - build up enough points to qualify for
> the big time tourneys by "winning" lots of their own tournaments?
No, I didn't know that. And I wonder how on earth you do. I suspect you're
making assumptions; possibly valid ones, but without much evidence to back
them up. Not sure that that helps the situation much - if you've got evidence
of tourney fraud, by all means forward it to the DCI. Making wide ranging
accusations without any evidence just confuses the issue.
> I bet many
> try to be legitimate and honest about it, but I bet many fabricate whatever
> results they need.
> I would like to know how many of the pro tour players have little stores
> somewhere, or have close friends who have little stores somewhere.
Lots of Pro Tour players are closely associated with stores. That's hardly
a surprise, given that being associated with a store is one way to get to
play a lot and therefore improve. I'm guessing just about every Pro Tour
player at least has friends that own a store. Unless you're trying to imply
that owning or knowing someone who owns a store is somehow suspicious, I'm
not sure what you're getting at.
I remain,
K
Orgg99
>that owning or knowing someone who owns a store is somehow suspicious, I'm
>not sure what you're getting at.
>
Of course that is not what I am saying.
Pull your head out of your rear and go read the story about Maher in Sideboard.
This will help you get a clue. There were also articles by Gary Wise alluding
to the same scheme, and other people have been suspended for similar actions.
And since you asked me about what I know, well, I don't play in sanctioned
tournaments and I don't seek to.
However.....
I am acquainted with one former pro tour player who rented space and ran a
store.
I am also acquainted with other people who rented space, opened a store, and
made no secret that their main ambition is to get on the pro tour. They have
tournaments all the time. I don't know if there is anything illegitimate going
on, and I don't inquire.
But I have read enough suspension and cheating reports to know that the world
and its Magic players are not as pure and ethical as you apparently, and
naively believe.
Personally, I applaud the DCI for cracking down on fraud and abuse; it is a
very difficult endeavor and I think they are on the right track.
Fshrly834
Theron Martin is enjoying a seat on the sidelines right now for this kind of
ratings scheme. This is nowhere near the first time this kind of stuff has
come out about Pro Tour players. It's happened often enough that it is a
legitimate question about other high-profile players. It would take a
full-scale check into tournament histories to weed out other PT players who
"dominated" tournaments in order to acquire enough ratings points to climb into
the major tourneys.
Orgg99
>ratings scheme. This is nowhere near the first time this kind of stuff has
>come out about Pro Tour players. It's happened often enough that it is a
>legitimate question about other high-profile players. It would take a
>full-scale check into tournament histories to weed out other PT players who
>"dominated" tournaments in order to acquire enough ratings points to climb
>into
>the major tourneys.
>
there is nothing inherently wrong or unethical or even unusual about operating
your own store and playing big time Magic. Probably, it's very common. And
the thing is, guys like Maher and Martin are top-notch Magic players who are
easily good enough to be playing in the major tourneys. But it is sure seems
like it is too easy and too tempting for some to find short-cuts under the
present points/ratings system.
Justin Sexton
> >Unless you're trying to imply
> >that owning or knowing someone who owns a store is somehow suspicious, I'm
> >not sure what you're getting at.
> >
>
> Of course that is not what I am saying.
> Pull your head out of your rear and go read the story about Maher in
> Sideboard.
I did. So did Karl, I'm sure.
> This will help you get a clue. There were also articles by Gary Wise
> alluding to the same scheme, and other people have been suspended for similar > actions.
Yes, they have. Less than ten that I recall. In what way does it make
this scam "common?"
> And since you asked me about what I know, well, I don't play in sanctioned
> tournaments and I don't seek to.
Ah. So your experience in this is admittedly limited.
> However.....
> I am acquainted with one former pro tour player who rented space and ran a
> store.
One. And was his store legitimate? Did he fabricate tournament
reports?
> I am also acquainted with other people who rented space, opened a store, and
> made no secret that their main ambition is to get on the pro tour.
Good ambition to have. Are they doing unethical things to get there?
> They have tournaments all the time.
Good for them; Magic needs more TOs.
> I don't know if there is anything illegitimate going
> on, and I don't inquire.
Oh. But you're willing to generalize from your total lack of knowledge
and claim that this is widespread and common. Huh.
> But I have read enough suspension and cheating reports to know that the world
> and its Magic players are not as pure and ethical as you apparently, and
> naively believe.
Cheating happens. No one on this group has ever, to my recollection,
seriously denied that.
> Personally, I applaud the DCI for cracking down on fraud and abuse; it is a
> very difficult endeavor and I think they are on the right track.
Ahem. Two possible situations exist. Either you are aware (or suspect)
that your acquaintances are cheating, or you don't. If you do, then
you should report them. Not reporting them gives lie to your statement
above. If you do not have such knowledge, then you are talking out of
your rear, and should retract your statements.
Choose wisely, Orgg.
Justin
Orgg99
>this scam "common?"
Why do you ask?
Did somebody say the type of cheating Maher and Martin and the others got
nailed for is common?
>Ah. So your experience in this is admittedly limited.
>
Congratulations. You can read.
>One. And was his store legitimate? Did he fabricate tournament
>reports?
....but not too well. I addressed this.
>> I am also acquainted with other people who rented space, opened a store,
>and
>> made no secret that their main ambition is to get on the pro tour.
>
>Good ambition to have. Are they doing unethical things to get there?
Mmm. Yeah, your reading comprehension could use some work. But you probably
have a couple of years before you have to worry about SATs and stuff. Good
luck.
>Oh. But you're willing to generalize from your total lack of knowledge
>and claim that this is widespread and common. Huh.
Generalization? What on earth are you talking about? What generalization?
I never said the type of cheating Maher and Martin and their partners did was
common - - just that it *could* be, and there's not a whole lot the DCI can
do about it.
>Ahem. Two possible situations exist. Either you are aware (or suspect)
>that your acquaintances are cheating, or you don't. If you do, then
>you should report them. Not reporting them gives lie to your statement
>above. If you do not have such knowledge, then you are talking out of
>your rear, and should retract your statements.
>
>Choose wisely, Orgg.
>
>Justin
Whew. You're off into outer space here Justin. You got a bug up your ass or
something? By the way, I often forget that many people who post to this group
do not speak English as their first language, so if this is where your trouble
is, I apologize for coming off a little rough. On the other hand, if you have
not quite mastered English, maybe you should be more discriminate about
criticising others.
Regards,
Tom
Ed Chauvin IV
>>this scam "common?"
>
>Why do you ask?
>Did somebody say the type of cheating Maher and Martin and the others got
>nailed for is common?
No, but you did say it was "probably very common."
Orgg99
>>nailed for is common?
>
>No, but you did say it was "probably very common."
>
Yep. I continue to speculate that it is "probably very common". No
accusation, just speculation. My opinion.
And I am glad the DCI is making sure everybody knows that they take it very
seriously.
Karl Allen
>>Unless you're trying to imply
>>that owning or knowing someone who owns a store is somehow suspicious, I'm
>>not sure what you're getting at.
> Of course that is not what I am saying.
Of course not. You'd rather keep your accusations vague and non-specific,
so that you can't really be accused of saying anything that might come back
to haunt you.
> Pull your head out of your rear and go read the story about Maher in
>Sideboard. This will help you get a clue.
Thanks for the advice, but I've got more clues than I know what to do
with. I've played in enough PTQs, State Championships, and other mid-range
tourneys to know that cheating is a problem. Heck, I've been the first person
to post here on various suspensions (like David Williams), always with
undisguised glee at the idea that people are getting what they deserve. You
imply that tournament fraud is rampant, but without any real way to know if
that's true or not. If it is, then by all means I hope the DCI cracks down.
But if it isn't, having people that don't know what they're talking about
make wild claims isn't helpful. It contributes to an overall feeling of
malaise about the situation; people assume that everyone's doing it, so they
should either do it themselves, drop out of the tournament scene all together,
or just come to accept it when they do see it.
If you really know of people who commit tourney fraud, report it to the DCI.
Name names. But don't go around making claims based on zero actual facts. It
doesn't help the situation.
I remain,
K
Justin Sexton
> >Yes, they have. Less than ten that I recall. In what way does it make
> >this scam "common?"
>
> Why do you ask?
> Did somebody say the type of cheating Maher and Martin and the others got
> nailed for is common?
Yes. You did, and you know it. Quoting:
>>Did you know that it is apparently a very common thing for aspiring
Magic pros
>>to rent a loft somewhere and open up a "store" so that they can then
hold DCI
>>"sanctioned" tournaments and voila! - - build up enough points to
qualify for
>>the big time tourneys by "winning" lots of their own tournaments?
Unless you're seriously arguing that your use of the word "apparently"
makes this all hypothetical...
> >Ah. So your experience in this is admittedly limited.
> >
>
> Congratulations. You can read.
>
> >One. And was his store legitimate? Did he fabricate tournament
> >reports?
>
> ....but not too well. I addressed this.
No, you didn't. You made broad generalizations, then brought up some
specific instances without giving any evidence. That's not addressing
anything.
> >> I am also acquainted with other people who rented space, opened a store,
> and
> >> made no secret that their main ambition is to get on the pro tour.
> >
> >Good ambition to have. Are they doing unethical things to get there?
>
> Mmm. Yeah, your reading comprehension could use some work. But you probably
> have a couple of years before you have to worry about SATs and stuff. Good
> luck.
Tee-hee. Math is hard! I'm a twenty-seven year old college graduate.
English is my first (but not only) language, and I've been on usenet
for more than eight years. Any other irrelevant and inaccurate
potshots you want to take, or would you rather start offering some
evidence or retractions?
> >Oh. But you're willing to generalize from your total lack of knowledge
> >and claim that this is widespread and common. Huh.
>
> Generalization? What on earth are you talking about? What generalization?
> I never said the type of cheating Maher and Martin and their partners did was
> common - - just that it *could* be, and there's not a whole lot the DCI can
> do about it.
Liar. That is not what you said. See above.
> >Ahem. Two possible situations exist. Either you are aware (or suspect)
> >that your acquaintances are cheating, or you don't. If you do, then
> >you should report them. Not reporting them gives lie to your statement
> >above. If you do not have such knowledge, then you are talking out of
> >your rear, and should retract your statements.
> Whew. You're off into outer space here Justin. You got a bug up your ass or
> something? By the way, I often forget that many people who post to this group
> do not speak English as their first language, so if this is where your trouble
> is, I apologize for coming off a little rough. On the other hand, if you have
> not quite mastered English, maybe you should be more discriminate about
> criticising others.
Or, I'm dead on, and you can't offer up any counterpoints. Regardless,
I'm not going to get into a flamewar with you. If your reply to this
(assuming you do reply) isn't more to the point, I won't bother
responding.
Justin
The Doge
>Or, I'm dead on, and you can't offer up any counterpoints. Regardless,
>I'm not going to get into a flamewar with you. If your reply to this
>(assuming you do reply) isn't more to the point, I won't bother
>responding.
>
Well, this is to the point. If you guys are gonna spit at each other, take
it to email.