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DCI banned & restricted update

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Jason Carl

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Dec 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/3/97
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OFFICIAL CHANGES TO THE _DCI_(TM) STANDARD FLOOR RULES
BANNED & RESTRICTED LISTS

Announcement date: December 3, 1997

Effective date: January 1, 1998


Standard (Type II) Banned List

no alterations


Extended Banned List

no alterations


Classic (Type I) Banned List

no alterations


Classic (Type I) Restricted List

Strip Mine is added


Classic-Restricted (Type 1.5) Banned List

no alterations

Sincerely yours,

Jason Carl
DCI Policy Director
Wizards of the Coast


DCI is a trademark of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. (C) 1997 Wizards of the
Coast, Inc.

Jason Barker

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Dec 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/3/97
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On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Jason Carl wrote:
>
> Classic (Type I) Restricted List
>
> Strip Mine is added

One word: ASS

jason

Ps: Ty Holcomb can't beat a sligh deck.

T. Holcomb

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Dec 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/4/97
to Jason Barker

This is an unfortunate rumor the truth is I get annoyed by CHEESY mono-red
decks and have to beat them down. 3 COP reds in my sideboard protect me
from the great red wheel of cheese. Sack two mountains and firebast, gosh
I guess I will disrupt that.


RScottK

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Dec 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/5/97
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They restricted Strip Mine in T1? Which provides NO card advantage (1-for-1
card trade)? I can only think of three reasons why WOTC would do this:

1) They just introduced a new dumbed-down "strip" in Tempest and want T1
players to run out & buy lots of the new expansion.

2) They have completely confused "usefulness" with "overpower" and, one by
one, will be restricted and banning any card that is universally useful
regardless of deck type.

3) They want to encourage people to play with Mishra's Factories by making it
tougher to get rid of them.

WOTC, would you please leave your meddling to T2? T1 used to actually be fun
when the only "banned" cards were Ante cards and those that made tournament
play unfeasable (i.e. Divine Intervention, Shahrazad), and "restricted" cards
were those that were obviously and brutally broken, like Time Walk.

And for crying out loud, at least be consistent with what you consider
"broken." Black Vice was NOT broken when there were only a few ways to get rid
of Artifacts ... now that we have mox Monkeys and Goblin Tinkerers and
Builder's Banes (and more) it's BROKEN? What's up with that? Candelabra was
"broken" before all the Alliances, Mirage, Tempest etc. special lands were
introduced, now it's NOT broken when there are a dozen more good lands to use
it on?

Does anyone out there think that Strip Mine is way too powerful in T1? Have I
missed the groundswell of players shouting for it's restriction?

Roger Keith

HAM DJINN

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Dec 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/5/97
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Roger wrote:
>Does anyone out there think that Strip Mine is way too powerful in T1? Have
>I
>missed the groundswell of players shouting for it's restriction?

There's always going to be "big-government" types
whining for restriction of this, banning of that, but I think
DCI might have stumbled onto the right move here.
With Wastelands now in the mix, it is entirely conceivable
that a whole lot of players would find 4 x Mines plus
4 x Wastelands too potent to pass up. This would
get chaotic/silly. On the other hand, it sure is easy
to get skeptical...I know of absolutely nobody who
can explain the Juggernaut "in", Hippie "out" move
that the DCI made this summer. Just bizarre.
HAM

Andreas Weiss

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Dec 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/5/97
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RScottK wrote:
>
> And for crying out loud, at least be consistent with what you consider
> "broken." Black Vice was NOT broken when there were only a few ways to get rid
> of Artifacts ... now that we have mox Monkeys and Goblin Tinkerers and
> Builder's Banes (and more) it's BROKEN? What's up with that? Candelabra was
> "broken" before all the Alliances, Mirage, Tempest etc. special lands were
> introduced, now it's NOT broken when there are a dozen more good lands to use
> it on?

That's the policy of the DCI: Only restrict/ban cards when they're used
abusively.
Remember that Balance was unrestricted for over a year until a deck
appeared that
took major advantage of it. Mind Twist was not even restricted at
first...

Black Vise in fact got more powerful with the mox monkey since he kills
the
Moxes and thus can keep you from casting spells. I don't want to start
any more
discussion about whether its restriction is justified or not, but it was
used in
a lot of decks and therefore somewhat dominating the turnament scene,
which the
DCI didn't like.

OTOH cards like Candelabra maybe were once broken back when they were
released
(because of the lack of anti-artifact stuff), but they certainly are not
anymore
broken now than many other cards (it just took the DCI a little long to
take them
off the restricted list, IMHO - btw: I think Maze of Ith doesn't belong
there
either, it's hardly used now anyway, and not very abusive if used in
multiples
either).



> Does anyone out there think that Strip Mine is way too powerful in T1? Have I
> missed the groundswell of players shouting for it's restriction?

Strip Mine alone is not a poblem at all, after all it has been around
for years.
It was only restricted because using 4 Strips and 4 Wastelands (well,
maybe only
six or seven total but anyway) is simply a little too much disruption.
Though I
think they might have waited a while longer to give players time to
adjust to this
(play more or more basic lands, for example).

Andreas Weiss

Donna Ann Fiskeaux

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Dec 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/5/97
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RScottK wrote:
>
> WOTC, would you please leave your meddling to T2? T1 used to actually be fun.
>
> Black Vice is NOT broken.
>
> Roger Keith


Here, here, yes please WotC/DCI, leave T1 alone. You've all but
destroyed the format as it stands now. Sorry HAM DJINN, but I've gotta
go against you on this 1, 8 strips isn't/wasn't too many, it was just
annoying @ times, but no more so than having everything you do
countered. I wish I had a $ for every control deck player that I heard
complaining about having to play against 8 strips, but when you'd ask
them if they were gonna change there decks around so that they could
play more basic land, they said no. If it wasn't enough to make them
change, then it can't have been all that bad. Besides, most of them are
running @ least 6 of the damn things anyway & they're the ones crying!
I tried running a deck w/ all 8 strips & it screwed my game all up. I
was never building up resources because I was always stripping my
opponent's land. I also found that I was often feeling a colored-mana
crunch. Overall, it was taking me longer to develop my game. IMO, the
added strips hadn't affected the enviroment overly much.

The Vice appreciates your support Keith. You, I & many others don't
believe that its broken, but......

Nicol Bolas

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Dec 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/6/97
to

Well, I have to add in my own .07/.07:

First, the restriction of Strip Mine:

Totally Unnecessary. Wizards just gave us the Interdict, which, at least
in my area, has made its way into a great number of t1 decks to keep Strips
and Wastes under control. The balance of power is still there. 8 strips
in the deck, minus 4 of them being interdicted, leaves 4 strips left over,
which is STILL necessary to keep Factories, Outposts, LOA, etc. under
control. The lands still get controlled by the 4 strips, and the extra 4
get interdicted. Cool balance to me.

Also, does WotC realize that in Extended, there is virtually no way to keep
Outposts and Factories under control? 4 wastes get interdicted, leaving
the posts to pump out more dudes. I vote for UNbanning of the Strip in
extended. Keep the posts/factories under control.

And something has got to be done about the Control/Mirror deck. With every
DCI letter, this deck type is getting WAY too powerful. Here are some of
the MAJOR, but not the ONLY reasons why:

1: Restriction of the vice. Control freaks are no longer worried about
holding a handful of counterspells, ancestralling, Library drawing, or
anything that would give them a billion cards in their hand in fear of
their opponent pulling 3 vices at just the right moment. One vice is TOO
easily handled in this environment, and once it's gone, the threat to the
control deck is gone.

2: The Mirror. Now, I'm not one to cry for restriction or banning....I
rarely agree with DCI restrictions or bannings, and I'm certainly not going
to ask for one here. Just a change of the "mana source" rules. Let me
explain. Currently, before and after the "mass untap" of the untap phase,
one can put all of the mana that they can into their mana pool. Except
under extremely rare circumstances, it'll burn. Normally, this wouldn't be
much of a problem. However, with the mirror, one can be at 20, burn for 19
with no opportunity for the opponent to stop it, and tap a city and pop the
mirror, killing the opponent where the opponent CANNOT STOP IT!
Interdict/rust will get countered, zorbs will be gone, trust me, I've
played the deck and its variants hundreds of times. The rules should
change. Mana sources of any type should not be allowed during untap. This
would force Mirror users to do this during their opponent's turn, bringing
them nicely into Bolt range. It would give them some form of
vulnerability.

3: Now, the restriction of the strip: There are a couple of parts to this
one. First, WotC gave them the interdict, which will stop the 4
wastelands, and replace their counters. This leaves in essence only one
strip, which isn't much. Second, the 4 strips and 4 wastelands gave us a
new Nether Void deck that was, until Strip's restriction, much more
powerful than most previous Void/whatever decks. On the good side, it was
a very formidable challenge to the Mirror deck, and on the bad side, it had
potential to become another dominant t1 deck. However, I'd rather have a
variety of dominant decks than just 1. Worst case scenario, I won't have
to play against a billion mirror decks in the same t1 tourney, and the
rounds won't last forever when 2 mirror decks clash.

In summary: Unrestrict the Strip and the vice. The 4 interdicts keep the
strips under control, and something needs to be done about the mirror deck.
With 8 strips and 4 vices allowed, these decks will once again come back
under control.


--
Well, just my .07/.07

Nicol Bolas
NICOL...@prodigy.net

Ain't life a bitch?

Donna Ann Fiskeaux <dafi...@eos.ncsu.edu> wrote in article
<3488AC...@eos.ncsu.edu>...

Henrik Clausen

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Dec 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/6/97
to

On 6 Dec 1997 20:09:08 GMT, "Nicol Bolas" <NICOL...@prodigy.net>
wrote:

>Also, does WotC realize that in Extended, there is virtually no way to keep
>Outposts and Factories under control?

My friend, I have a card to teach you:

Disenchant 1W
Instant
Destroy target enchantment or artifact.

Around here, they work quite well against Factory...

>4 wastes get interdicted, leaving the posts to pump out more dudes.

More interesting cards for U:

Stone Rain, Sinkhole, Pillage, Creeping Mold, Icequake, Thermokarst
and several more LD spells. Not to mention Conquer, Political Trickery
(give 'em a used Glacier or UParadise).

>I vote for UNbanning of the Strip in extended. Keep the posts/factories under control.

Outpost can be a problem, it's a very powerful card. Factory?
Crunch, munch.

>The 4 interdicts keep the strips under control.

Rubbish. Not everyone plays Blue in T1.

>and something needs to be done about the mirror deck.

Now, that's another case. I suppose you don't play Uktabi Orangutan
- give it a try.

> With 8 strips and 4 vices allowed, these decks will once again come back
>under control.

Nah. The entire environment will just be floating with yet more
disruption than it already does (which is a LOT!).

-Henrik

Henrik Clausen

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Dec 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/6/97
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On 5 Dec 1997 07:53:45 GMT, rsc...@aol.com (RScottK) wrote:

>They restricted Strip Mine in T1? Which provides NO card advantage (1-for-1
>card trade)? I can only think of three reasons why WOTC would do this:

I can think of more.

Ever since I looked at the possibility of a 40-card deck with an
additional 20 Strip Mine, I've been convinced that Strip is plain
broken:

Take any 60-card deck. Tweak it to 56 cards - this will make it
slightly more powerful, as is well known. Throw in 4 Strip, and you'll
be messing with opponent's vital resource - land - practically for
free. REGARDLESS of your deck's theme!

Strip Mine is a no-brainer in T1. Plain stupid card.

>1) They just introduced a new dumbed-down "strip" in Tempest and want T1
>players to run out & buy lots of the new expansion.

They also made Wasteland Uncommon, as compared to the Rare Strip.
Wasteland is a balanced card, sometimes useless.

>2) They have completely confused "usefulness" with "overpower" and, one by
>one, will be restricted and banning any card that is universally useful
>regardless of deck type.

Which makes one hell of a lot *sense*. Strip Mine is an
uninteresting card that just happens to bring you good fortune if you
happen to draw them quickly.

>3) They want to encourage people to play with Mishra's Factories by making it
>tougher to get rid of them.

Mishra's are OK.

>WOTC, would you please leave your meddling to T2? T1 used to actually be fun
>when the only "banned" cards were Ante cards and those that made tournament
>play unfeasable (i.e. Divine Intervention, Shahrazad), and "restricted" cards
>were those that were obviously and brutally broken, like Time Walk.

Strip is just a bad design that should never have been printed. I
do some T1 and like to see Strip leave.

>Does anyone out there think that Strip Mine is way too powerful in T1?

Yes. It is very disruptive, and a stupid design.

>Have I missed the groundswell of players shouting for it's restriction?

Yes. I'll never miss it. We all agree to restrict our stripping of
each other, put some more relevant cards in our decks, and have fun.

Actually, I consider this one of the best and most relevant
restrictions ever.

-Henrik

tkrzywicki

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Dec 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/6/97
to

c'mon, kiddies, get a clue! there is a very good reason why strip
mine, black vise, etc. have been restricted. first and foremost, the
object of the dci restricted/banned list (especially in type 1) has been
to make sure that m:tg remains an intellectual sport at all levels
(including type 1). this includes restricting/banning cards that
inherently require little or no timing, skill, intelligence to play in
and of themselves, such as black vise. there have been several threads
over the past year regarding the unrestriction of the dreaded vise, and,
as a long time type 1 player, i must generally assume that most people
who wish to see a four vice type 1 environment don't play type 1
themselves. most of these posts have involved the following
explanations..."but you can play disenchant/force of
will/moxes/shatter/goblin tinkerer/gorilla shaman." any type 1 player
knows that if you don't see an answer to the vise early, even if you are
playing a speedy deck, you'll probably lose. which leads to yet another
point: i think that the object of the banned/restricted list is to
allow at least a decent amount of variety in deck construction, and this
variety/flexibility would not be available if vise were unrestricted
(this comment is directed at you, mr. four interdicts). same thing with
strip mine...it was reasonably broken by itself, but then again not
quite obscenely enough to warrant restriction. however, with 4 more
strips (wastelands), something had to be done or else type 1 would just
degenerate into a game of manascrew, which is something i think no magic
player wants. onto the mirror issue...this card should not be banned.
i personally have never seen anyone drop a first turn mirror and
devastate his opponent with it. i have been a mirror player for my
entire type 1 career and the deck takes a LOT of timing, skill, and
intelligence to win. the card doesn't win by itself, such as perhaps
the vice does. usually, i've found that the amnesia and tome are my
roads to victory, often being able to kill my opponent with a 20 point
fireball instead if i felt like it. i think most people are just
frustrated at the fact that the deck always wins with the mirror, which
is sorta justifiable, i guess. what i'm trying to get to is that if you
take any john doe who just learned how to play magic off the street and
give him a hand of land, mox, vice, vice, strip, strip, he's going to
win even though he may be the intellectual and strategic inferior of his
opponent. however, if you give the same guy a hand of 2 land, one
counter, a disenchant, a plow, some other card, and a mirror, he
probably won't be nearly as successful. let's face it, folks, type 1
should still deserve some respect and i personally think wotc dignified
the format by getting rid of those two cards and not the mirror. and to
the type 2 peanut gallery, get the cards and play for a year or two in
the format and then tell me vice and strip should be unrestricted.
later,
mike krzywicki
high point, nc (the type 1 capital of the known universe :)
1997 nc type 2 state champion
until last week top 50 in type 1 (but i just won another t1 tourney last
week so i should be back on soon)

feel free to send any comments to the address on the ng post.

Chuckie Sarsparilla

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Dec 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/6/97
to

Henrik Clausen wrote:
>
> On 6 Dec 1997 20:09:08 GMT, "Nicol Bolas" <NICOL...@prodigy.net>
> wrote:
>
> >Also, does WotC realize that in Extended, there is virtually no way to keep
> >Outposts and Factories under control?
>
> My friend, I have a card to teach you:
>
> Disenchant 1W
> Instant
> Destroy target enchantment or artifact.
>
> Around here, they work quite well against Factory...

But if you want to disenchant the factories, their other artifacts/
enchantments get to live.

> >4 wastes get interdicted, leaving the posts to pump out more dudes.
>
> More interesting cards for U:
>
> Stone Rain, Sinkhole, Pillage, Creeping Mold, Icequake, Thermokarst
> and several more LD spells. Not to mention Conquer, Political Trickery
> (give 'em a used Glacier or UParadise).

Often get countered by the time the outpost is out - and if you're
running more than 2-3 of these cards, you're probably playing LD...



> >I vote for UNbanning of the Strip in extended. Keep the posts/factories under control.
>
> Outpost can be a problem, it's a very powerful card. Factory?
> Crunch, munch.
>
> >The 4 interdicts keep the strips under control.
>
> Rubbish. Not everyone plays Blue in T1.

Hehe...wrong there.

If you mean 1.x, I agree, though. I feel the strip should be unbanned
in T1, and still be banned in T1.x.

(Yes, I know that strip was just restricted, not banned - but when a
card is restricted, it's essentially banned if it needs to work in
multiples.)



> >and something needs to be done about the mirror deck.
>
> Now, that's another case. I suppose you don't play Uktabi Orangutan
> - give it a try.

Doesn't help - the Mirror/Time Walk combo is popular, and they'll often
counter to Orangutan. Not nearly as effective as you make it to be -
besides, you have to be playing GREEN to use him.



> > With 8 strips and 4 vices allowed, these decks will once again come back
> >under control.
>
> Nah. The entire environment will just be floating with yet more
> disruption than it already does (which is a LOT!).

Yes, but none of it hurts control - both of these cards are enemies
of control, which just supports my theory that R.G. is a Control Player.

Chuckie
--
An immense river of oblivion is sweeping us away
into a nameless abyss.
-Ernest Renan

Donna Ann Fiskeaux

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Dec 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/6/97
to

Dear Mike,

Rather than send comments directly to your home email address, I'd
actually like to discuss the issues you've addressed as well as any
other T1 issue you'd care to debate, openly on the newsgroup. Now that
being said, I'm quite sure that Pete Lieher would take affront to you
calling him less than an intellectual giant because he plays a
non-control Mirror deck. Particularly after he went out & won both of
the InQuest T1 Invitationals that were held on the east coast w/ a deck
that in all probability he did not create. I personally find it
appalling that you'd have the audacity to make such a biased &
generalized statement as if it were fact. Those players who play U/W
counter/Mirror decks are no more intelligent than those person's who
choose to play other colors & styles of decks. Certainly there is
obviously some measure of skill in playing a deck w/ virtually no active
way to beat its opponents, but that is a testament to not just those
player's skill, but also the deck's ability. It seems painfully obvious
that you have mistaken the meddlesome DCI's neutering of your opponent's
decks to mean that U/W players must be more intelligent & thus WotC's
favorite sons. However, you are right about the Vice in 1 respect, if
you can't find an answer for an early Vice, it can potentially be a very
short game. Yet, the problem arises because control players like
yourself don't like the answer, its counterproductive to your game. The
answer is to get down to 4 cards in hand until a way to deal w/ the Vice
shows up. Obviously, that's not what a counter deck(I know its a
misnomer, but.....) wants to do, but versus an early Vice that's what
has to be done until you can find a Disenchant or whatever. My question
to you is, if it hurts you so bad, then why not Force of Will it? Do
you Force your opponent's 1st turn Necro? That's a no-brainer. So why
not Force a 1st turn Vice it is SO detrimental to your deck? The answer
is simple, you don't want to. That's the real crux of your whole post,
which is we are U/W players & we like the DCI because they make wise
restiction rulings since none of their rulings have hurt our deck.
Control deck players don't want to have to make changes to their decks
to stay current, they want the rest of the field to have to make changes
just to try & beat them, as if the deck wasn't already strong enough.
Did you change your deck to accommodate the possiblity of facing a deck
w/ 8 strips in it, such as adding more non-basic land? NO, none of you
guys did. You've got your 1 basic plain & 2 basic islands & you think
that's enough & anything that contradicts that logic should be
restricted. Mike I'm disappointed that you'd come onto the newsgroup &
espouse such elitist biased nonsense. As far as T1 goes, the Vice is
not broken & it didn't need to be restricted, neither did the Strip
Mine. So far as I've been able to ascertain, the addition of the 4
x-tra strips did little to change the T1 enviroment. Most players only
made cursory adjustments to their decks in preparation to face that
possiblity. I think by now it is quite obvious that I don't play a
control/Mirror deck, but I'm not an advocate for the banning of the
Mirror either. Getting killed by the Mirror is no more annoying than
getting Viced to death, or getting all your land destroyed or having
every play you attempt to make countered. In your post, you stated that
something had to be done to keep T1 Magic from becoming a game of
manascrew, now you & I both know that was not the outcome of adding
Wasteland to the mix, but to take that argument of yours 1 step further
if I may, why do you suppose that T1 would become all about who got land
screwed early? It wouldn't be because even the control players were
running anywhere from 6 to 8 strips would it? Yet didn't you say that
L-D was for the intellectually challenged player? Hmm....., I for one
find that very interesting. Mike, dropping the Mirror on somebody when
you've got total control of the game doesn't & I quote, "take(s) a LOT
of timing, skill, and intelligence". Give us all a break & cut the
bullshit, PLEASE. Now onto yet another intellectual tidbit pulled from
your post, so you think that the DCI's restriction/banned list is to
encourage deck variety, huh? Yes, the DCI have certainly done
everything in their power to promote the propagation of a variety of
different deck types(Please note the sarcasm). Well, let's see has
anybody heard from the Turbo Zoo since the Vice has been resticted? No,
me neither, I wonder if I'm still on his X-mas card list? Everytime the
DCI ostracizes another powerful card, it lessens the T1 enviroment a
little more. W/ their flippant ever-changing rulings, they've all but
broken T1 down into a control deck vs. black speed format. I can see
how the number of different deck types can be so overwhelming, but after
all, variety is the spice of life(Again, please note the sarcasm). Now,
as a LONG TIME T1 player w/ ALL the cards, let me enlighten you & please
note that I've not let my deck preference bias my opinion & just for the
record, Necro decks love being under the Vice, its restriction really
hurt us(Again w/ the sarcasm). 1st of all, let me preface my thoughts
by saying that I love T1, that its all I play & that I support any
rulings that increase the number of viable T1 deck types; of which
lately there have been none forth coming from the DCI. That's why I
firmly believe in the un-restriction of the Vice & Strip Mine,
obviously, but also the Berserk, Fork, the Maze & FastBond. T1 is
supposed to be a fast-paced chaotic enviroment it which the face of the
game can be radically changed w/ just one draw phase. Things everybody
needs to know about T1:

1) In Magic terms, T1 means, shit happens. Its balls to the wall
Magic.
2) Learn to deal w/ #1(see above).
3) Everyone needs to recognize that T1 is a format designed to support
moxen, Lotus & certain other powerful OOP cards which from now on
will be refered to as the P10.
4) As a format, yes T1 is open to everybody, but it helps if you have
the P10.
5) Yes you can play T1 if you don't have any or all of the P10, but
please don't cry in an attempt to get certain cards that hurt you
restricted; it only hurts the enviroment. If you don't mind
playing w/ fire, then you shouldn't mind getting burned.
Remember, only you can prevent forest fires.
6) That's why WotC created other formats(see #5 - above)

Btw Mike, not all of the best Chess players play w/ a sit back w/ my
thumb up my ass approach to their game, some play an agressive in your
face style of Chess, so why should that same truth not hold true w/
Magic? Pete Lieher's deck obviously wasn't a reactive deck, but rather
it was VERY pro-active one. He forced his game upon his opponent like
it or not.

Trevor Barrie

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Dec 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/6/97
to

In article <19971205075...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,

RScottK <rsc...@aol.com> wrote:
>They restricted Strip Mine in T1? Which provides NO card advantage (1-for-1

>2) They have completely confused "usefulness" with "overpower" and, one by


>one, will be restricted and banning any card that is universally useful
>regardless of deck type.

Huh? Usefulness regardless of deck types has _always_ been one of the most
important criteria for overpoweredness and, consequently, for being a candidate
for restriction or banning. This only makes sense, IMO.

>Does anyone out there think that Strip Mine is way too powerful in T1? Have I


>missed the groundswell of players shouting for it's restriction?

Apparently so.


Henrik Clausen

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Dec 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/7/97
to

On Sat, 06 Dec 1997 17:10:38 -0800, Chuckie Sarsparilla
<sarsp...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Henrik Clausen wrote:
>>
>> >Also, does WotC realize that in Extended, there is virtually no way to keep
>> >Outposts and Factories under control?
>>
>> My friend, I have a card to teach you:
>>
>> Disenchant 1W

>> Around here, they work quite well against Factory...
>
>But if you want to disenchant the factories, their other artifacts/
>enchantments get to live.

OK, but don't tell me you have virtually no way to keep a Factory
under control. You could also Shatterstorm the rest first.

>> >4 wastes get interdicted, leaving the posts to pump out more dudes.
>>
>> More interesting cards for U:
>>

>> Stone Rain, Sinkhole, Pillage, Creeping Mold, Icequake, ...


>
>Often get countered by the time the outpost is out - and if you're
>running more than 2-3 of these cards, you're probably playing LD...

Sure, that's the trick of CounterPost, but don't tell me you have
no way to deal with the 'Post.



>> >I vote for UNbanning of the Strip in extended. Keep the posts/factories under control.

>> Rubbish. Not everyone plays Blue in T1.
>Hehe...wrong there.

At the last T1 turney here, the amount of spoiler cards (Mox
monkey, Uktabi, Windchaser, ..) was so high that most of those $$$$
decks simply collapsed and R/G decks had a good time - the winner
being a Land Tax / Lands Edge deck, though. The amount of disruption
going on in T1 here is extreme.

>If you mean 1.x, I agree, though. I feel the strip should be unbanned
>in T1, and still be banned in T1.x.

Hell, you can still use Wasteland! That's a damn good alternative.

>> >and something needs to be done about the mirror deck.

Perhaps. They're really nasty.

>> Now, that's another case. I suppose you don't play Uktabi Orangutan
>> - give it a try.
>
>Doesn't help - the Mirror/Time Walk combo is popular, and they'll often
>counter to Orangutan. Not nearly as effective as you make it to be -
>besides, you have to be playing GREEN to use him.

As noted above, R/G disruption decks have quite a time in T1 here.

>Yes, but none of it hurts control.

Granted, control is still the strategy to beat in T1.


-Henrik

mark a wraith

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Dec 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/7/97
to

Henrik Clausen wrote:

>
> On 5 Dec 1997 07:53:45 GMT, rsc...@aol.com (RScottK) wrote:
>
> >They restricted Strip Mine in T1? Which provides NO card advantage (1-for-1
> >card trade)? I can only think of three reasons why WOTC would do this:
>
> I can think of more.
>
> Ever since I looked at the possibility of a 40-card deck with an
> additional 20 Strip Mine, I've been convinced that Strip is plain
> broken:
>
> Take any 60-card deck. Tweak it to 56 cards - this will make it
> slightly more powerful, as is well known. Throw in 4 Strip, and you'll
> be messing with opponent's vital resource - land - practically for
> free. REGARDLESS of your deck's theme!
>
> Strip Mine is a no-brainer in T1. Plain stupid card.
>
> >1) They just introduced a new dumbed-down "strip" in Tempest and want T1
> >players to run out & buy lots of the new expansion.
>
> They also made Wasteland Uncommon, as compared to the Rare Strip.
> Wasteland is a balanced card, sometimes useless.

Wow I've never seen a rare Strip Mine before. Where did you get that
from?

>
> >2) They have completely confused "usefulness" with "overpower" and, one by
> >one, will be restricted and banning any card that is universally useful
> >regardless of deck type.
>

> Which makes one hell of a lot *sense*. Strip Mine is an
> uninteresting card that just happens to bring you good fortune if you
> happen to draw them quickly.

So do a lot of T1 cards but I don't think they should be banned/
restricted. Heck, I enjoyed playing four Balances, but then again I'm a
warped individual.


>
> >3) They want to encourage people to play with Mishra's Factories by making it
> >tougher to get rid of them.
>
> Mishra's are OK.
>
> >WOTC, would you please leave your meddling to T2? T1 used to actually be fun
> >when the only "banned" cards were Ante cards and those that made tournament
> >play unfeasable (i.e. Divine Intervention, Shahrazad), and "restricted" cards
> >were those that were obviously and brutally broken, like Time Walk.
>
> Strip is just a bad design that should never have been printed. I
> do some T1 and like to see Strip leave.
>

> >Does anyone out there think that Strip Mine is way too powerful in T1?
>

> Yes. It is very disruptive, and a stupid design.

> No. It's not scary at all, except maybe in Juzam/Void. I don't think
Counterpost is a valid deck type in Type I anyway.

> >Have I missed the groundswell of players shouting for it's restriction?
>

> Yes. I'll never miss it. We all agree to restrict our stripping of
> each other, put some more relevant cards in our decks, and have fun.
>
> Actually, I consider this one of the best and most relevant
> restrictions ever.
>

> -HenrikNo no no. Bring back Strip Mine and Black Vise and lets have some fun
again, I like Type I BECAUSE it has powerful cards in it.

Talvin69

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Dec 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/7/97
to

Ok just jumping into this thread with a few IMNSHOs. I am not a heavy T1
player since the only $$ i have are a mirror and a drain (both italian) but i
have takethe opportunity when possible to watch and analyze as much Type 1 as
possible.
>Well, I have to add in my own .07/.07:
>
>First, the restriction of Strip Mine:
>
>Totally Unnecessary. Wizards just gave us the Interdict, which, at least
>in my area, has made its way into a great number of t1 decks to keep Strips
>and Wastes under control. The balance of power is still there. 8 strips
>in the deck, minus 4 of them being interdicted, leaves 4 strips left over,
>which is STILL necessary to keep Factories, Outposts, LOA, etc. under
>control. The lands still get controlled by the 4 strips, and the extra 4
>get interdicted. Cool balance to me.
Interdict is a very strong card and makes a good counter to the strip, but the
problem is that 4 in a deck can cause some hand clogging in the early game,
but in general it is worth playing 2-3. As for funky lands, now a Zoo deck
dies to any sort of control, control has mirror and maze which must be wasted,
as well as any other rogue lands they play (mishra etc).
>
>Also, does WotC realize that in Extended, there is virtually no way to keep
>Outposts and Factories under control? 4 wastes get interdicted, leaving
>the posts to pump out more dudes. I vote for UNbanning of the Strip in

>extended. Keep the posts/factories under control.
If your opponent is playing outposts in 1.X it is a given that they have 4
interdict which will save the posts, while being a friggin cantrip, hell if you
aren't playing wastes (why not?) they can just rust their outpost and get a
card instead of a dude for one turn.

>
>And something has got to be done about the Control/Mirror deck. With every
>DCI letter, this deck type is getting WAY too powerful. Here are some of
>the MAJOR, but not the ONLY reasons why:
Control mirror was barely even hurt by wasteland, i watched a Typical style
pre-tempest mirror deck tear a U/R counter/brun/frenetic 8 strip deck a new
asshole multiple times. Also at a $1000 tourney the type 1 bracket was almost
definitely won by a mirror deck. 8 Strips are strong huh? In order to be
plying 8 strips your deck must have 30+ mana sources. Figure 8 strips, 3
mishra's a library, a sol Ring, 5 moxen, a flower, and there is 19 mana sources
without cstable stuff such as cities, duals, and 1-3 basics. Also fellwar's
might have been a good idea since they are hard to bust with a monkey.

>
>1: Restriction of the vice. Control freaks are no longer worried about
>holding a handful of counterspells, ancestralling, Library drawing, or
>anything that would give them a billion cards in their hand in fear of
>their opponent pulling 3 vices at just the right moment. One vice is TOO
>easily handled in this environment, and once it's gone, the threat to the
>control deck is gone.
The vise did not need to be restricted. If you bust a vise against me 1st turn
i probably take 5 total points before i manage to bust out enough jewelry to
get under. not worht restricting. It kept the mirror deck in line with zoo and
Mono Black Juzam void. Since the restriction there are only Juzam Void and
Mirror control with a few successful zoo dekcs which are tuned 100% playing
against mirror and void decks which are slightly lees than perfect.
>
>2: The Mirror. Now, I'm not one to cry for restriction or banning....I
>rarely agree with DCI restrictions or bannings, and I'm certainly not going
>to ask for one here. Just a change of the "mana source" rules. Let me
>explain. Currently, before and after the "mass untap" of the untap phase,
>one can put all of the mana that they can into their mana pool. Except
>under extremely rare circumstances, it'll burn. Normally, this wouldn't be
>much of a problem. However, with the mirror, one can be at 20, burn for 19
>with no opportunity for the opponent to stop it, and tap a city and pop the
>mirror, killing the opponent where the opponent CANNOT STOP IT!
>Interdict/rust will get countered, zorbs will be gone, trust me, I've
>played the deck and its variants hundreds of times. The rules should
>change. Mana sources of any type should not be allowed during untap. This
>would force Mirror users to do this during their opponent's turn, bringing
>them nicely into Bolt range. It would give them some form of
>vulnerability.
Eh, i don't think this is the problem as the control player will merely burn
himself for 4-5 every turn for a few turns instead by burning during the
opponents discard.
>
>3: Now, the restriction of the strip: There are a couple of parts to this
>one. First, WotC gave them the interdict, which will stop the 4
>wastelands, and replace their counters. This leaves in essence only one
>strip, which isn't much. Second, the 4 strips and 4 wastelands gave us a
>new Nether Void deck that was, until Strip's restriction, much more
>powerful than most previous Void/whatever decks. On the good side, it was
>a very formidable challenge to the Mirror deck, and on the bad side, it had
>potential to become another dominant t1 deck. However, I'd rather have a
>variety of dominant decks than just 1. Worst case scenario, I won't have
>to play against a billion mirror decks in the same t1 tourney, and the
>rounds won't last forever when 2 mirror decks clash.
I think that 8strips is not too strong since you wreck your own mana
development in the process, this is 8 land which can only produce colorless in
addition to factories and your Library. TAs above this menas you need 30+ mana
sources in order to not get screwed.
>
>In summary: Unrestrict the Strip and the vice. The 4 interdicts keep the
>strips under control, and something needs to be done about the mirror deck.

> With 8 strips and 4 vices allowed, these decks will once again come back
>under control.
Also the maze should be unrestricted since it is rarely used, and then only as
a sideboard card. A few other cards no longer warrant restriction either, but
very few since the liberation WOTC did a few months ago.

>
>
>--
>Well, just my .07/.07
>
>Nicol Bolas
>NICOL...@prodigy.net
>
>Ain't life a bitch?
>
T.J. Xenos
ICP "The Great Milenko"-Already Out!
"Where'd you get that costume young man?" "My mom made it for me. Sieg Heil!
SEIG HEIL!!"
Scott Keith Mark
<<Freeze, dirtbag! This is a net.cop bust!

*Bad boys, bad boys, whatcha gonna do...*>>


Warren Connell

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Dec 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/7/97
to

Sorry, Nicol Bolas, but before you complain about Mirror Universe being
broken, remember that interdicts work on it as well. It's amusing, too.


WarrM...@webtv.net

Luís Coelho

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Dec 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/8/97
to

Just a suggestion.
As an alternative to restricting cards; I've always tought it could be a
lot better if WoTC decided to change the limit on equally named cards on a
deck from 4 to 3. I can see a lot of arguments against, like taking away
the abillity to make combos easily, but it would make a hell of a lot more
difficult to build a decent deck.
What do you think?

Regards,
Luís Coelho.

Expo 98 -- http://www.expo98.pt <-- Come and visit us in 98!

"Technology does not always equal progress"
-- Douglas Coupland, Life After God
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Way/3972/

Brian Thomas Habing

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Dec 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/9/97
to

"Lus Coelho" <Deep...@geocities.com> writes:

> Just a suggestion.
> As an alternative to restricting cards; I've always tought it could be a
>lot better if WoTC decided to change the limit on equally named cards on a
>deck from 4 to 3. I can see a lot of arguments against, like taking away
>the abillity to make combos easily, but it would make a hell of a lot more
>difficult to build a decent deck.
> What do you think?

The problem with limiting all cards to three instead of four is that it
just kills some decks (Thallids for example) for new reason.

Type B has a restricted list (max 1 each, 4 total in deck) and a limit two each list.

It seems to work pretty well.

The Type B homepage at http://www.stat.uiuc.edu/~habing/typeb.html
has the rules, ratings, past winning decks, and info on getting your
type b tournament rated.


---Brian Habing
hab...@stat.uiuc.edu


Trevor Barrie

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Dec 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/9/97
to

In article <01bd042d$609a3440$Loca...@host.ist.utl.pt>,
Luís Coelho <Deep...@geocities.com> wrote:

> As an alternative to restricting cards; I've always tought it could be a
>lot better if WoTC decided to change the limit on equally named cards on a
>deck from 4 to 3.

Exactly the wrong way to go IMO. Frankly, I've been wondering lately whether
the current Type II card mix is balanced enough that they could dispense with
the 4-per limit entirely. I mean, is there anything really degenerate you could
do? 60 Mishra's Factories is no longer possible. Just Incinerates & Mountains
doesn't sound as nasty as just Bolts & Mountains and besides, there are enough
Incinerate workalikes that you can more or less do that now. A Plague Rat deck
would become actually viable, but I doubt it would be actually broken.

>I can see a lot of arguments against, like taking away the abillity to make
>combos easily, but it would make a hell of a lot more difficult to build a
>decent deck.

How so? It would just make deck-building decision-making a little easier.
(Instead of deciding between 0,1,2,3, or 4 of such-and-such card, you only
have 4 possibilities from which to choose.)

Donna Ann Fiskeaux

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Dec 9, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/9/97
to

Hi all,

Congrats are in order for both Mark A Wraith & Talvin69 because they've
obviously got a clue when it comes to T1. I've said it before & we'll
say it again, as Mark pointed out, its T1 we're supposed to be drawing
stupid cards, that's why its fun. :) & Talvin hit it dead on the head
that w/ 8 strips in your dead, you'd have to be running damn near 50%
mana to not get color hosed. I tried reconfiguring my deck to
accommodate the 8 strips & found that my game just wasn't developing
fast enough because I wasn't gaining any sort of meaningful permanent
advantage. My opponent plays a land I strip it. So neither of us has
any land. & good for you, those that @ least swapped out so land for
basics. The Wasteland barely had a noticeable effect on the
enviroment. Control decks didn't bother to change their except to add
more strips & black decks didn't run as well w/ em'.

mark a wraith

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Dec 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/10/97
to

> A Plague Rat deck
> would become actually viable, but I doubt it would be actually broken.

Maybe a Plague Rat deck wouldn't but what about this deck?
18 Forest 42 Muscle Slivers. I think that would be fairly broken, yes?

Kris Wempa

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Dec 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/10/97
to

tkrzywicki <tkrzy...@prodigy.net> writes:

>should still deserve some respect and i personally think wotc dignified
>the format by getting rid of those two cards and not the mirror. and to

I will never understand why WoTC decides to ban Mind Twist and Channel, but
leaves in Time Walk and Mirror Universe. Mind Twist and Channel are powerful,
but not more powerful than Time Walk or Mirror Universe. With channel, you
are usually taking a pretty big risk with a fireball. If something goes wrong,
you'll probably be at like 1 life. On the other hand, when does it hurt to
take an extra turn ? OK, maybe if you have Underworld Dreams on you, but there
aren't too many cases like this. Mirror universe is a card that I think never
should have been made. With the mirror, you can negate what somebody has done
to you the entire game with one upkeep. Plus, mirror universe penalizes a
player for trying to accomplish the objective of the game (reduce your life to
0). This doesn't make sense to me. These cards are probably all in the same
class and they should probably all be banned.


--
Kris Wempa we...@remus.rutgers.edu
http://remus.rutgers.edu/~wempa we...@eden.rutgers.edu

Erik Osterholm

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Dec 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/10/97
to

tba...@ibm.net (Trevor Barrie) wrote:

>In article <01bd042d$609a3440$Loca...@host.ist.utl.pt>,
>Luís Coelho <Deep...@geocities.com> wrote:
>
>> As an alternative to restricting cards; I've always tought it could be a
>>lot better if WoTC decided to change the limit on equally named cards on a
>>deck from 4 to 3.
>
>Exactly the wrong way to go IMO. Frankly, I've been wondering lately whether
>the current Type II card mix is balanced enough that they could dispense with
>the 4-per limit entirely. I mean, is there anything really degenerate you could
>do? 60 Mishra's Factories is no longer possible. Just Incinerates & Mountains
>doesn't sound as nasty as just Bolts & Mountains and besides, there are enough

>Incinerate workalikes that you can more or less do that now. A Plague Rat deck


>would become actually viable, but I doubt it would be actually broken.

What about Kindle? Each time you cast one, it's more powerful than
the one before it.

2+3+4+5+6 = dead....5 Kindles. Yes, that's 5 turns (min) but still...
Can you imagine:
17 Mountain
40 Kindle
3 Deck Thinners.


>>I can see a lot of arguments against, like taking away the abillity to make
>>combos easily, but it would make a hell of a lot more difficult to build a
>>decent deck.
>
>How so? It would just make deck-building decision-making a little easier.
>(Instead of deciding between 0,1,2,3, or 4 of such-and-such card, you only
>have 4 possibilities from which to choose.)

----
er...@tamu.edu
http://PersonalWebs.myriad.net/erik/


GHPOOBAH2

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Dec 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/10/97
to

and how about an all muscle sliver deck??

Chuckie Sarsparilla

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Dec 10, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/10/97
to

Time Walk and Mirror Universe are not banned because neither
automatically
wins you the game. The mirror may be powerful, but, look - it requires
6 mana to cast, comes into play tapped, and can only be used during
your upkeep. If you removed one of these restrictions, it would be
overpowered, but as is, it's pretty vulnerable unless you're in control
to use - most players can hold back a disenchant or offering for it.
Or,
you can just kill them faster. Time Walk accomplishes little by itself,
it's just an extremely useful utility card - but on it's own, it does
nothing. It can even be said to be a combo card because of it.

Now, channel can end the game instantly upon playing - even if you don't
channel yourself down to 1 life to kill first turn with a torch, you
can always cast a couple icies, or some ankhs, or a stack of vises,
or any other artifact, very quickly, and can basically lock up the game
from turn 1. A mind twist usually ended the game when cast - you got
in a counter war, whoever won had a lot of drain mana, so the would
mind twist your hand away. They are now so far ahead of you you have
little chance of winning. If anything with these 4 cards was to happen,
it would be the unbanning of mind twist, since it's restriction may
be enough, esp. if they gave us our 4 vises (a card which is not broken
or overpowered) back in T1.

Gerrud Rasmussen

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Dec 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/11/97
to


Kris Wempa wrote:

> tkrzywicki <tkrzy...@prodigy.net> writes:
>
> >should still deserve some respect and i personally think wotc dignified
> >the format by getting rid of those two cards and not the mirror. and to
>
> I will never understand why WoTC decides to ban Mind Twist and Channel, but
> leaves in Time Walk and Mirror Universe. Mind Twist and Channel are powerful,
> but not more powerful than Time Walk or Mirror Universe.

Ever been Mind Twisted for seven before your first turn? Trust me, it sucks. And
well, everybody knows about Channel-balls...nice.

> With channel, you

> are usually taking a pretty big risk with a fireball. If something goes wrong,

> you'll probably be at like 1 life. On the other hand, when does it hurt to
> take an extra turn ? OK, maybe if you have Underworld Dreams on you, but there
> aren't too many cases like this. Mirror universe is a card that I think never
> should have been made.

Let me guess...you own several copies of both Channel and Mind Twist and can't use
them in tourneys anymore. On the other hand, you own neither a Time Walk or a
Mirror Universe and hate having them played against you. Counter the Time Walk!!!
Interdict the Mirror Universe!!! If a certain card gives you migraines, deal with
it.

> With the mirror, you can negate what somebody has done
> to you the entire game with one upkeep.

Yeah, well, imagine the look on your opponent's face when he uses his City of Brass
on his upkeep to go to 0 life, Mirrors, and you interdict the Mirror. He dies, you
win.

> Plus, mirror universe penalizes a
> player for trying to accomplish the objective of the game (reduce your life to
> 0).

So does Eye for an Eye, Reflect Damage, Reverberate. Ankh of Mishra punishes you
for playing a land card! MY GOD! Ban it!

> This doesn't make sense to me. These cards are probably all in the same
> class and they should probably all be banned.
>
>

> Just because you don't own a card, it does not move to the top of the DCI's
> watch list, otherwise everything besides basic land would be banned.

flame on!


Matt

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Dec 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/11/97
to

RScottK wrote:
>
> They restricted Strip Mine in T1? Which provides NO card advantage (1-for-1
> card trade)? I can only think of three reasons why WOTC would do this:
>
> 1) They just introduced a new dumbed-down "strip" in Tempest and want T1
> players to run out & buy lots of the new expansion.

Possibility... since they are a company who are trying to make money...
our money



> 2) They have completely confused "usefulness" with "overpower" and, one by
> one, will be restricted and banning any card that is universally useful
> regardless of deck type.

Sounds like Type 2 logic being used in Type I... dangerous precedent I
believe... especially since I rather liked seeing the last posting when
Candelabra, Copy Artifact, Mishra's Workshop, Feldon's, and Zuran Orb
was UN-restricted in Type I. I've never liked the idea of regulating
the idea of "deck variety" by restricting or banning cards that just
happened to be widely used because they were worth a .... . Times were
when the truly spoiler cards (i.e. P10, Mirror) were restricted and ante
or game-screwers (Divine Int, Shah.) were the only banned cards. Now
it's those plus cards that have been successfully lobbied to be
overpowered being banned and cards with a high level of utility being
restricted.



> 3) They want to encourage people to play with Mishra's Factories by making it
> tougher to get rid of them.

> WOTC, would you please leave your meddling to T2? T1 used to actually be fun


> when the only "banned" cards were Ante cards and those that made tournament
> play unfeasable (i.e. Divine Intervention, Shahrazad), and "restricted" cards
> were those that were obviously and brutally broken, like Time Walk.
>

> And for crying out loud, at least be consistent with what you consider
> "broken." Black Vice was NOT broken when there were only a few ways to get rid
> of Artifacts ... now that we have mox Monkeys and Goblin Tinkerers and
> Builder's Banes (and more) it's BROKEN? What's up with that? Candelabra was
> "broken" before all the Alliances, Mirage, Tempest etc. special lands were
> introduced, now it's NOT broken when there are a dozen more good lands to use
> it on?

I'll admit that the unrestricting of the Candelabra was strange, but the
Workshop I never saw as too powerful since it could only cast artifacts.

> Does anyone out there think that Strip Mine is way too powerful in T1? Have I


> missed the groundswell of players shouting for it's restriction?

Not that I've ever seen, in fact I rarely see it in most decks (tourney
or otherwise) and when I did, it was either part of a theme (LD) or just
a little nuisance that really didn't change any part of the game... if
you did, I did as well.

> Roger Keith

Dustin Sorel

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Dec 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/11/97
to

>>What about Kindle? Each time you cast one, it's more powerful than
>>the one before it.
>>
>>2+3+4+5+6 = dead....5 Kindles. Yes, that's 5 turns (min) >>>>>>>>>>>>but still...
>>Can you imagine:
>>17 Mountain
>>40 Kindle
>>3 Deck Thinners.

> Maybe a Plague Rat deck wouldn't but what about this deck?


> 18 Forest 42 Muscle Slivers. I think that would be fairly broken, >>> yes?

<quote from two seperate articles...one simple solution>

how about labotomy??

you were saying about those theme decks??there goes your library,
graveyard and hand...have a pleasnat afternoon...=)
Dustin

Jason Barker

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Dec 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/11/97
to

On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Chuckie Sarsparilla wrote:

> Time Walk and Mirror Universe are not banned because neither
> automatically
> wins you the game. The mirror may be powerful, but, look - it requires
> 6 mana to cast, comes into play tapped, and can only be used during
> your upkeep. If you removed one of these restrictions, it would be
> overpowered,

OK, then it doesn't come into play tapped. Now is it over powered?? If
you READ the card you'll notice it mentions NOTHING about coming into play
tapped. I guess now you're admitting it's overpowered.

Also, Mirror DOES automatically win you the game. You play your mirror,
then at the end of your opponent's turn you mana burn, then during your
untap phase you tap all your lands and burn down to 1, then during upkeep
you tap a city of brass and flip the mirror. Yeah, I know, just interdict
it or whatever. Well, you COULD counter a mind twist...but does that mean
it's not broken?? hell no, it's still broken as hell, and Mirror
Universe IS the most BROKEN card in magic. Take a look at what wins type
I, either necro or counter-mirror with it's only way to win by flipping
the mirror.


> but as is, it's pretty vulnerable unless you're in control
> to use - most players can hold back a disenchant or offering for it.

A good player doesn't play a mirror unless they have plenty of counter
back up in hand.

> Time Walk accomplishes little by itself,
> it's just an extremely useful utility card - but on it's own, it does
> nothing. It can even be said to be a combo card because of it.

I agree. I don't think the Walk is that bad, and I've never had a problem
with it. Just Mirror, Mind twist, Channel, ancestrall and Library. But
ALL of those should be RESTRICTED, NOT BANNED!!! yes I can lose to a
first turn channelball, but that's what TYPE I is all about!!!

> Now, channel can end the game instantly upon playing - even if you don't
> channel yourself down to 1 life to kill first turn with a torch, you
> can always cast a couple icies, or some ankhs, or a stack of vises,

Yeah, sure a STACK of vises...so now one vise= a stack??

> or any other artifact, very quickly, and can basically lock up the game
> from turn 1. A mind twist usually ended the game when cast - you got
> in a counter war, whoever won had a lot of drain mana, so the would
> mind twist your hand away. They are now so far ahead of you you have
> little chance of winning. If anything with these 4 cards was to happen,
> it would be the unbanning of mind twist, since it's restriction may
> be enough, esp. if they gave us our 4 vises (a card which is not broken
> or overpowered) back in T1.

I like the restricted list during fourth edition, vise was unrestricted,
and mind twist was restricted. I also think they should bring back the
Chaos Orb, it's a fun card. The excuse was "problems in tournaments
related to flipping" like was it really a foot off the table when flipped,
but THERE ARE no type I tournaments any more, so that doesn't matter.

Channel, though....there's just no way to show this card is balanced. Is
Broken as hell (like mirror) and should be banned. I say Ban mirror
universe if you're going to ban anything, but I don't want ANYTHING banned
(except of course, channel)

jason


Donna Ann Fiskeaux

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Dec 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/11/97
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Dear Mike,

Rather than send comments directly to your home email address, I'd
actually like to discuss the issues you've addressed as well as any
other T1 issue you'd care to debate, openly on the newsgroup. Now that
being said, I'm quite sure that Pete Lieher would take affront to you
calling him less than an intellectual giant because he plays a
non-control Mirror deck. Particularly after he went out & won both of
he InQuest T1 Invitationals that were held on the east coast w/ a
deck that in all probability he did not create. Those players

who play U/W
counter/Mirror decks are no more intelligent than those person's who
choose to play other colors & styles of decks. Certainly there is
obviously some measure of skill in playing a deck w/ virtually no active
way to beat its opponents, but that is a testament to not only the

player's skill, but also the deck's ability. It seems painfully obvious
that you have mistaken the meddlesome DCI's neutering of your opponent's
decks to mean that U/W players must be more intelligent & thus WotC's
favorite sons. However, you are right about the Vice in 1 respect, if
you can't find an answer for an 1, it can potentially be a very

short game. Yet, the problem arises because control players like
yourself don't like the answer, its counterproductive to your game. The
answer is to get down to 4 cards in hand until a way to deal w/ the Vice
shows up. Obviously, that's not what a counter deck(I know its a
misnomer, but.....) wants to do, but versus an early Vice that's what
has to be done until you can find a Disenchant or whatever. My question
to you is this, if it hurts you so bad, then why not Force of Will it?
Do
you Force your opponent's 1st turn Necro? Duh? So why not Force a 1st

turn Vice it is SO detrimental to your deck? The answer is simple,
you don't want to. That's the real crux of your whole post, which
is we are U/W players & we like the DCI because they make wise
restiction rulings since none of their recent rulings have hurt
our deck. Did you even consider changung your deck enlight of the

possiblity of facing a deck w/ 8 strips in it, such as adding more
non-basic land? NO, why do that when we can just get the cards that
hurt our deck restricted, right? Mike I'm disappointed that

you'd come onto the newsgroup &
espouse such elitist biased nonsense. As far as T1 goes, the Vice is
not broken & it didn't need to be restricted, neither did the Strip
Mine. So far as I've been able to ascertain, the addition of the 4
x-tra strips did little to change the T1 enviroment. Most players
only made cursory adjustments to their decks in preparation to
face that
possiblity. I think by now it is quite obvious that I don't play a
control/Mirror deck, but I'm not an advocate for the banning of the
Mirror either. Getting killed by the Mirror is no more annoying than
getting Viced to death, or getting all your land destroyed or having
every play you attempt to make countered. In your post, you stated that
something had to be done to keep T1 Magic from becoming a game of
manascrew, now you & I both know that was not the outcome of adding
Wasteland to the mix, but to take that argument of yours 1 step further
if I may, why do you suppose that T1 would become all about who got land
screwed early? It wouldn't be because even the control players were
running anywhere from 6 to 8 strips would it? Mike, dropping the Mirror

on somebody when you've got total control of the game doesn't & I
quote, "take(s) a LOT of timing, skill, and intelligence". Now

onto yet another intellectual tidbit pulled from your post, so you
think that the DCI's restriction/banned list is to encourage deck
variety, huh? Yes, the DCI have certainly done
everything in their power to promote the propagation of a variety of
different deck types(Please note the sarcasm). Well, let's see has
anybody heard from the Turbo Zoo since the Vice has been resticted? No,
me neither, I wonder if I'm still on his X-mas card list? Everytime the
DCI ostracizes another powerful card, it lessens the T1 enviroment a
little more. W/ their flippant ever-changing rulings, they've all but
broken T1 down into a control deck vs. black speed format. Now,

as a LONG TIME T1 player w/ ALL the cards, let me enlighten you & please
note that I've not let my deck preference bias my opinion & just for the
record, Necro decks love being under the Vice, its restriction really
hurt us(Again w/ the sarcasm). 1st of all, let me preface my thoughts
by saying that I love T1, that its all I play & that I support any
rulings that increase the number of viable T1 deck types; of which
lately there have been none forth coming from the DCI. That's why I
firmly believe in the un-restriction of the Vice & Strip Mine,
bviously, but also the Berserk, Fork, Maze & FastBond. T1 is
supposed to be a fast-paced environment in which the face of the

game can be radically changed w/ just one draw phase. Things everybody
needs to know about T1:

1) In Magic terms, T1 means, shit happens.

2) Learn to deal w/ #1(see above).

3) Everyone needs to recognize that T1 is a format designed to support
moxen, Lotus & certain other powerful OOP cards which from now on

will be refered to as the P11: Moxes, Lotus, Library, Mirror, Walk,
Twister & Ancestral.

4) As a format, yes T1 is open to everybody, but it helps if you have

the P11.

5) Yes you can play T1 if you don't have any or all of the P11,


but please don't cry in an attempt to get certain
cards that hurt you

restricted; it only hurts the enviroment by limiting its viable deck
types. If you don't mind playing w/ fire, then you shouldn't
mind getting burned.

6) That's why WotC created other formats(see #5 - above)



Btw Mike, not all of the best Chess players play w/ a sit back w/ my

thumb up my butt approach to the game, some play an agressive in your
face style of Chess, so why should that same truth not hold true in
Magic?

ciao

Matt

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Dec 11, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/11/97
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Andreas Weiss wrote:

>
> RScottK wrote:
> >
> > And for crying out loud, at least be consistent with what you consider
> > "broken." Black Vice was NOT broken when there were only a few ways to get rid
> > of Artifacts ... now that we have mox Monkeys and Goblin Tinkerers and
> > Builder's Banes (and more) it's BROKEN? What's up with that? Candelabra was
> > "broken" before all the Alliances, Mirage, Tempest etc. special lands were
> > introduced, now it's NOT broken when there are a dozen more good lands to use
> > it on?
>
> That's the policy of the DCI: Only restrict/ban cards when they're used
> abusively. Remember that Balance was unrestricted for over a year until a deck
> appeared that took major advantage of it. Mind Twist was not even restricted at
> first...
>
> Black Vise in fact got more powerful with the mox monkey since he kills
> the Moxes and thus can keep you from casting spells. I don't want to start
> any more discussion about whether its restriction is justified or not, but it was
> used in a lot of decks and therefore somewhat dominating the turnament scene,
> which the DCI didn't like.

I really don't believe it should matter what I or anyone else plays in
their deck to the DCI as long as it's legal at the time. The notion of
banning/restricting a card because someone doesn't like it is too weak
to defend. Case in point... I utterly despise Counterspells... should
we ban and restrict them all?

> OTOH cards like Candelabra maybe were once broken back when they were
> released (because of the lack of anti-artifact stuff), but they certainly are not
> anymore broken now than many other cards (it just took the DCI a little long to
> take them off the restricted list, IMHO - btw: I think Maze of Ith doesn't belong
> there either, it's hardly used now anyway, and not very abusive if used in
> multiples either).

Can't the anti-artifact argument go with the Vise as well? As for the
Maze, I was in when it was first released... the "fight" to get 4 was
intense trading-wise and at the time everyone I knew were collecting and
using them regardless.



> > Does anyone out there think that Strip Mine is way too powerful in T1? Have I
> > missed the groundswell of players shouting for it's restriction?
>

> Strip Mine alone is not a poblem at all, after all it has been around
> for years. It was only restricted because using 4 Strips and 4 Wastelands (well,
> maybe only six or seven total but anyway) is simply a little too much disruption.
> Though I think they might have waited a while longer to give players time to
> adjust to this (play more or more basic lands, for example).

Agreed here... the reaction is pretty knee-jerk this time, and if you
truly think about it, in combo, most people will probably only use about
5 or 6 slots between the two if that many anyway. So what is the
problem? If Magic is about deck adaptation, why didn't they allow for
the environment to adapt to the new cards before taking regulatory
action?

> Andreas Weiss

Trevor Barrie

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Dec 12, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/12/97
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In article <66mbe6$npp$1...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>,

mark a wraith <nospamfo...@isaid.nosspam!> wrote:

>> A Plague Rat deck
>> would become actually viable, but I doubt it would be actually broken.
>

>Maybe a Plague Rat deck wouldn't but what about this deck?
>18 Forest 42 Muscle Slivers. I think that would be fairly broken, yes?

Hmmm. Easily hosable, but yeah, it is pretty twisted.

The Mad Hatter

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Dec 13, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/13/97
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> I really don't believe it should matter what I or anyone else plays in
> their deck to the DCI as long as it's legal at the time. The notion of
> banning/restricting a card because someone doesn't like it is too weak
> to defend. Case in point... I utterly despise Counterspells... should
> we ban and restrict them all?
>


HELL yes. :)


The Mad Hatter

Mark

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Dec 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/14/97
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mark a wraith wrote:

> > A Plague Rat deck
> > would become actually viable, but I doubt it would be actually broken.
>
> Maybe a Plague Rat deck wouldn't but what about this deck?
> 18 Forest 42 Muscle Slivers. I think that would be fairly broken, yes?

For Type 1:
15 Black Lotus:
45 Lightning Bolt:
Opening hand (You draw)
2 Black Lotus,5 Lightning Bolts
Draw: Lighning Bolt
Play both Black Lotus, Tap and sac for 6 red mana, play all 6 Lighning
Bolts.
18 damage, 1st turn.
2/3 more turns to pick up 1 black Lotus, and 1 lighning bolt.
No problem!!
Actually, I now want no more restrictions on cards. I also want 9 card first
draws.
Mark


Chuckie Sarsparilla

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Dec 14, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/14/97
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Here's my take on where cards should be, and WHY. My general take is
a card should not be banned unless it singlehandedly ruins the
environment.

My general question is - what would completely dominate this
environment? What would be unviable? What would be present to
ensure the complete collapse of the environment? Any comments/
extra commentary on cards would be appreciated.

Restricted:
Ancestral Recall - the simplest card in the game, provides a 2 card
advantage for a single blue mana. No reason not to play 4 if
unrestricted, and no reason not to play 1 if restricted. Worth
splashing for this card.
Balance - Creates incredible card advantage. Can swing the game for
2 mana. Combination wrath, geddon, and mind twist in some
cases.
Black Lotus - Rediculous speed boost. Often, no reason not to play
one.
Braingeyser - Enormous positive card advantage. Abusive in multiples.
Channel - Channelball won about 1 in 1000 games in the first 2 turns.
you can't base a deck around it, and it needs a 5-6 card combo
to work, including some restricted cards. Should be restricted,
not banned.
Demonic Tutor - gets any card on this list for 2 mana, no card
disadvantage.
Ivory Tower - 3 life a turn for free in most decks. Rediculous in
multiples.
Library of Alexandria - Lets you draw an extra card a turn for free.
cannot be countered.
Mind Twist - Used to be vastly overpowered, and whoever drew and
cast theirs first usually won. Now, mind twist is usually
responded to with the statement "In response, I mystical tutor
for my timetwister."
Mirror Universe - Incredible with multiples in your deck. Restricted,
it's simply strong.
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire - all are better than basic land, and put you a turn ahead
of your opponent. Little to no disadvantage over basic lands.
Recall - Trades cards you don't need for 3-4 on this list. Broken
because of the cards available to get.
Regrowth - Re-uses any card here you've already used. Broken by the
cards available.
Sol Ring - 2 turn jump starting 2nd turn. One of the most powerful
cards in the game.
Time Walk - free turn for the bargain price of 2 mana. Can be cast
early in the game. No reason not to use.
Timetwister - Can refill your hand while recycling your whole graveyard.
Can grant 7+ card advantage for 3 mana.
Underworld Dreams - Not broken on it's own, but with wheel of fortune
and timetwister, 2 of these equal instant death. Still powerful
restricted.
Wheel of Fortune - refills your hand for 3 mana.

Banned:
Ante Cards - no place in tourney magic.
Chaos Orb - makes the game chaotic - your table is no longer big enough
to play on, players start taping cards to the wall, putting
them all in 1 big pile, etc.
Divine Intervention - essentially wastes the entire game in tournies.
Falling Star - same as chaos orb.
Shahrazad - wastes a good half hour to inflict 1-10 damage.

Not Restricted - even more important to describe why:
Ali From Cairo - He's a creature. Dies easily. Does nothing until
you're about to die. Cannot stop a mirror universe kill.
Only useful in gimmick decks.
Berserk - Not used when restricted. Usually replaced in a deck by
another creature after playtesting. Double berserking is
strong, but not with a moat in play.
Black Vise - most contriversial restriction. Good card vs. Control
or necro. Often sideboarded out vs. other decks. Never
crippling enough to draw a first turn force of will.
A keystone in T1.
Candelabra of Tawnos - Only abusable with mana flare or lots of
special lands - but with 8 strip mines available, how long
do special lands last? Isn't broad enough to warrant
restriction.
Copy Artifact - only abusive when what you're copying is abusive -
and Ivory Tower is the only one worth copying by this standard.
allows more than 4 copies of a card in a deck, essentially.
Still, isn't powerful or abusive enough to warrant restriction.
Fastbond - Stormcauldron is a gimick deck that relies on a 7 card combo
to win first turn. Easily disrupted. Little use in any
other deck. Restricted simply to ban it in 1.5.
Feldon's Cane - allowed reshuffling (recycling) of broken cards into
the library. Took a long time for them to show themselves
again. Costs a card, has no immediate effect. Gaea's Blessing
usually a better choice.
Fork - Haven't seen one since the restriction. Good card in multiples,
but it never singlehandedly ended a game. Unlike regrowth,
had to use the copy immediately, and used up 2 more mana,
which is quite a bit when you're looking into the 4-5 mana
range. Is not splashable, which severly limits it's power.
Maze of Ith - Decent critter control, but little other use. Simply
stalls the creature battle. Does not generate mana - is a
wasted draw against creatureless decks. Draws off strips
from creature decks. Useful, not broken.
Mishra's Workshop - fast, but the restriction on the mana keeps it
in check. Useful in artifact decks, useless elsewhere. Not
broken enough to warrant restriction.
Strip Mine - Playing 8 strips hurts you as much as your opponent.
People never adjusted their decks to deal with wastelands.
Generated color screw for YOU. Not in the same category
as ancestral recall by far.
Sword of the Ages - Requires a lot of creatures to do anything.
Zuran Orb - Wouldn't use more than 2, anyway. Doesn't swing the game,
just stalls it out a little. Good counter to a mirror.
Effective with balance for a geddon + life, but combo's don't
warrant restriction.

This is merely my opinion, nothing more, nothing less. Take it for
what it's worth. Comments welcome.

Chuckie

HAM DJINN

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Dec 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/15/97
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Chuck
(Re: Your banned/restricted list w/ explanations)

Agree totally, with one exception: Berserk should
remain restricted. There are simply too many quick,
relatively high-power creatures available in today's
environment (especially in green),and at one mana,
it's worth four in any creature-heavy deck. Best to
keep this one restricted, IMHO.
Also, I agree that it is now safe to bring back
Channel (restricted, though). But I do disagree
with your analysis on this one. Second turn kills
with Channelball may be 1/1000 but when you
get to turn three or four, the ease of the kill
increases *dramatically*. I got bombed in tourneys
by Channelball far more times than I like to remember;
many time on turn three or four, following
Taiga-Kird Ape, Mountain-Bolt, Forest-Goodbye...
I think there are now a lot more ways to deal with this
possibility than there were two years ago; FoW
and Honorable Passage come to mind, but there's
plenty more.
Other than these minor points, I agree with your
analysis.
HAM

sagrillo

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Dec 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/15/97
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Chuckie Sarsparilla <sarsp...@earthlink.net> wrote:

One problem with this wilder environment: less than 5000 people
in the world can play on equal terms because that's how many can build
any deck they want with the cards available (because less than 20,000
of some cards were printed).

Oh, well, I suppose those 5000 people can have fun (if they live
close enough together to play). Or people willing to proxy.

Chuckie Sarsparilla

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Dec 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/15/97
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I disagree. You can make a solid deck if you metagame correctly
with very little cost - almost the price of a good T2 deck. Consider,
Gorilla Shamans, Dwarven Miners, 4 Vises, 8 strips, 12 bolts,
erhnams, wildfires, and readily available broken stuff - wheel,
sol ring, regrowth, etc. This may not contain a thousand dollars
worth of cards, but it can still win, esp. if everyone didn't prepare
for it. It's just knowing the metagame, and what you have to beat -
and preparing for it.

Oh, and if you want to go with me down to Kinkos to get yourself a
time walk to play me with, I will not object...

Donna Ann Fiskeaux

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Dec 15, 1997, 3:00:00 AM12/15/97