Card Idea: Cannibal Thirst
XZealot
+1 stealth
Requires a ready vampire with no blood
Enter combat with another vampire with at least 1 blood on him. In
this combat you gain an extra maneuver and and a press.
XZealot
If this acting vampire is ready at the end of combat then he gains all
blood lost healing damage or preventing destruction by the opposing
vampire.
XZealot
James Coupe
Requires card text to make it playable instead of a mandatory hunt.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Kevin M.
[slightly reworded and named]
> Dream of Bakija
> Action
> +1 stealth
> Requires a ready vampire with no blood.
> Enter combat with a vampire who has at least 1 blood. This minion
> gains a maneuver and a press this combat. If this acting vampire
> is ready at the end of combat then he or she gains blood equal to
> the amount lost by the opposing vampire either to healing damage or
> preventing destruction.
Anything that will help me further the Una cause, I'm all for it! ;)
Seriously, though, it's a really nice alternative to hunting for
decks that can't afford to take that particular action.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
Please bid on my auctions! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
Wedge
Pullen
The main problem I see with this is 4 caps with fort, bring them out,
villien, rush, Trap, and Undead Persistence-Tenacity, fill up kinda
and be a little on the overpowered side. I would drop the blood gain
for the rusher down to blood lost during the round the rushy went to
torpor, that way it's not so cheese. Other then that, I would like to
see this as another option in a combat deck
Janne Hägglund
> On Aug 12, 9:08 pm, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
> > XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
> > >Action
> > >+1 stealth
> > >Requires a ready vampire with no blood
> >
> > Requires card text to make it playable instead of a mandatory hunt.
>
> Just make it a hunt action.
Not equivalent. Think about Hungry Coyote, Aaron's Feeding Razor and the
like. They would modify a hunt action.
HG
Wedge
I don't see a problem with that. Chances are you are going too torpor
anyway.
Juggernaut1981
Yeah I can see some really abusive combinations, possibly even using !
Salubri without using the more usual Eye or Sword of the Righteous...
But yeah, Trap + [for] will probably be enough to break this thing.
Without considering doing it with Animalism. Nikolaus Vermeulen
rushes, Carrion Crows, Bats, Bats, Bats... Ooooh more blood to cycle
into my crypt area for more Princes.
Jozxyqk
For a Hermanas deck?
XZealot
I thought of the UP angle, but it doesn't work because of the "If this
aciting vampire is ready at the end of combat" which it is not.
XZealot
> On Aug 13, 3:47 pm, Pullen <mattp3...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 12, 11:49 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > > Action
> > > +1 stealth
> > > Requires a ready vampire with no blood
> > > Enter combat with another vampire with at least 1 blood on him. In
> > > this combat you gain an extra maneuver and and a press. If this
> > > acting vampire is ready at the end of combat then he gains all
> > > blood lost healing damage or preventing destruction by the opposing
> > > vampire.
>
> > The main problem I see with this is 4 caps with fort, bring them out,
> > villien, rush, Trap, and Undead Persistence-Tenacity, fill up kinda
> > and be a little on the overpowered side. I would drop the blood gain
> > for the rusher down to blood lost during the round the rushy went to
> > torpor, that way it's not so cheese. Other then that, I would like to
> > see this as another option in a combat deck
>
> Yeah I can see some really abusive combinations, possibly even using !
> Salubri without using the more usual Eye or Sword of the Righteous...
> But yeah, Trap + [for] will probably be enough to break this thing.
This card requires the action to be taken by a vampire with no blood
on him. How do you pay for these cards? With the path? Oh, so that
combo doesn't work if you don't have the path out.
> Without considering doing it with Animalism. Nikolaus Vermeulen
> rushes, Carrion Crows, Bats, Bats, Bats... Ooooh more blood to cycle
> into my crypt area for more Princes.
Wow, and a zip gun kills you, because you don't have any blood on you.
XZealot
Now see that is a pretty good angle for a deck. L)
XZealot
> XZealot wrote:
>
> [slightly reworded and named]
>
> > Dream of Bakija
> > Action
> > +1 stealth
> > Requires a ready vampire with no blood.
> > Enter combat with a vampire who has at least 1 blood. This minion
> > gains a maneuver and a press this combat. If this acting vampire
> > is ready at the end of combat then he or she gains blood equal to
> > the amount lost by the opposing vampire either to healing damage or
> > preventing destruction.
>
> Anything that will help me further the Una cause, I'm all for it! ;)
You will have to explain to me how this helps a Una Deck?
LSJ
> I thought of the UP angle, but it doesn't work because of the "If this
> aciting vampire is ready at the end of combat" which it is not.
At the end of combat: ready but wounded.
The vampire is only not "ready at the end of combat" if xe is burned
in combat, since card text on UP only sends xem to torpor "after
combat".
XZealot
> XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
> >Action
> >+1 stealth
> >Requires a ready vampire with no blood
>
> Requires card text to make it playable instead of a mandatory hunt.
"Only usable when a vampire must hunt, this vampire takes and action
to enter combat with a ready vampire instead" as clarification text.
LSJ
> On Aug 12, 9:08 pm, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
>
> > XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
> > >Action
> > >+1 stealth
> > >Requires a ready vampire with no blood
>
> > Requires card text to make it playable instead of a mandatory hunt.
>
So a vampire with Feeding Razor would gain a blood and then enter
combat.
And then you really have to watch out for Festivo.
XZealot
Okay, so would it be "ready at the end of the action" instead so that
it wouldn't be abusive with Undead Persistance?
LSJ
Sure.
Kevin M.
> "Kevin M." wrote:
>> XZealot wrote:
>>> Dream of Bakija
>>> Action
>>> +1 stealth
>>> Requires a ready vampire with no blood.
>>> Enter combat with a vampire who has at least 1 blood. This minion
>>> gains a maneuver and a press this combat. If this acting vampire
>>> is ready at the end of combat then he or she gains blood equal to
>>> the amount lost by the opposing vampire either to healing damage
>>> or preventing destruction.
>>
>> Anything that will help me further the Una cause, I'm all for it!
>
The primary limiting factor in the Una deck is a lack of rushes.
This is another rush that Una could use, and to great effect.
Francis Plamondon
> Please bid on my auctions!http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
I get the feeling this card would actually provide little that is not
already possible, beyond the fact that you could rush even at 0 blood.
Any rush deck with Taste of Vitae will regularly be taking back
whatever he other vampire lost each round, while if you go Sabbat,
Games of Instinct lets you get back to full capacity if you can
torporize a bigger cap vamp (not too hard if the other deck doesn't
have an efficient combat module). All in all, this sounds like a card
that does what multiple cards together can achieve already. Its only
restriction on being bloodless makes it very case specific, but hardly
accounts for giving a maneuver, a press and a phantom Taste of Vitae.
Bum's Rush gives you a maneuver, and it has the penalty of not being
replaced for the action, effectively reducing your hand size.
"Supercards" that are in all ways better and frees up card slots
belong to M:tG.
Oh and being a teacher (though not of English, I'll concede), why use
"xey", "xem" and "xeir"? "Them", "they" and "their" are already gender
neutral.
floppyzedolfin
wrote:
> Oh and being a teacher (though not of English, I'll concede), why use
> "xey", "xem" and "xeir"? "Them", "they" and "their" are already gender
> neutral.
That's a question you didn't want to ask, trust me :)
LSJ
wrote:
> Oh and being a teacher (though not of English, I'll concede), why use
> "xey", "xem" and "xeir"? "Them", "they" and "their" are already gender
> neutral.
Number matching. "They" is plural. "Xey" is singular.
XZealot
> Oh and being a teacher (though not of English, I'll concede), why use
> "xey", "xem" and "xeir"? "Them", "they" and "their" are already gender
> neutral.
Put that crap in another thread.
If you're going to have 3 x's in a sentence there better be some tits
and ass as well.
Blooded Sand
Please don't put that crap in another thread. Just don't put it
anywhere, pretend it is fnord and move on, okay?
ira...@gmail.com
> Enter combat with another vampire with at least 1 blood on him. In
> this combat you gain an extra maneuver and and a press.
The problem I see with this card is that it can only be used very
rarely, unless you build a deck around the 0 blood restriction.
Therefore, I recommend we remove the 0 blood restriction, and change
it to:
Action
Requires a vampire. May be used by a ready vampire with no blood
instead of hunting.
(D) Enter combat with a ready vampire with at least 2 blood controlled
by another Methuselah. During this combat, if the opposing vampire
loses at least 1 blood due to damage, the acting vampire gains 1 blood
at the end of the action.
That feels more similar to Ambush, Bum's Rush, Harass, etc. The
original text Norm posted is probably also balanced, but so corner-
case that I'd rather see a more generally usable rush.
Original: Requires 0 blood, gives +1 stealth, manuever, press, and
unlimited blood lost
Proposed: Usable by any vampire, 0 stealth, no man, no press, and gain
1 blood max.
Thoughts?
While we're talking about card ideas, what about:
Trophy: Reliability
Master. Trophy.
During your untap phase, if this card is on a vampire, you may gain 1
pool.
Is that too powerful for a Trophy? What about:
Trophy: Reliability 2
Master. Trophy.
During your untap phase, if this card is on a vampire, your prey loses
1 pool.
Thoughts welcome,
Ira
Peter D Bakija
> XZealot wrote:
>
> [slightly reworded and named]
>
> > Dream of Bakija
> > Action
> > +1 stealth
> > Requires a ready vampire with no blood.
> > Enter combat with a vampire who has at least 1 blood. This minion
> > gains a maneuver and a press this combat. If this acting vampire
> > is ready at the end of combat then he or she gains blood equal to
> > the amount lost by the opposing vampire either to healing damage or
> > preventing destruction.
Heh heh heh. Just noticed this...
-Peter
Juggernaut1981
> Thoughts welcome,
> Ira
Compare it to the other "wacky-hunt" card... Vulture's Buffet. Yes
Vulture's is a Bloodline discipline (and possibly a broken card) but
it's basically a wacky-hunt. This card appears to be more of a wacky-
hunt that involves combat, rather than a rush card that happens to
give blood.
Action
Hunt Action.
Choose a ready vampire with 2 or more blood. Enter combat with that
vampire as a (D) action. If this action is successful and the acting
vampire is ready at the end of combat, the acting vampire gains 1
blood.
Trophies> Too powerful I would have thought, even with their "if X"
text. I'd be happy to see it as:
Trophy: Reliability
Master. Trophy.
Once during your turn, you may tap this card at the end of a
successful action to give this vampire 1 blood.
or...
Trophy: Destroyer
Master. Trophy.
Once during your turn, you may tap this card at the end of a
successful (D) action to make the Methuselah targeted by that (D)
action burn 1 pool. [You may not tap this card during a bleed action.]
XZealot
> On Aug 12, 8:27 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > Action
> > +1 stealth
> > Requires a ready vampire with no blood
> > Enter combat with another vampire with at least 1 blood on him. In
> > this combat you gain an extra maneuver and and a press.
>
> The problem I see with this card is that it can only be used very
> rarely, unless you build a deck around the 0 blood restriction.
> Therefore, I recommend we remove the 0 blood restriction, and change
> it to:
>
> Action
> Requires a vampire. May be used by a ready vampire with no blood
> instead of hunting.
> (D) Enter combat with a ready vampire with at least 2 blood controlled
> by another Methuselah. During this combat, if the opposing vampire
> loses at least 1 blood due to damage, the acting vampire gains 1 blood
> at the end of the action.
>
> That feels more similar to Ambush, Bum's Rush, Harass, etc. The
> original text Norm posted is probably also balanced, but so corner-
> case that I'd rather see a more generally usable rush.
It offers something that other rush cards don't (i.e. taste). I
thought it needed a big downside.
> Original: Requires 0 blood, gives +1 stealth, manuever, press, and
> unlimited blood lost
> Proposed: Usable by any vampire, 0 stealth, no man, no press, and gain
> 1 blood max.
Seems like a different card altogether. It's a good card, but no rush
cards come without downsides, so what is this ones?
> Thoughts?
>
> While we're talking about card ideas, what about:
> Trophy: Reliability
> Master. Trophy.
> During your untap phase, if this card is on a vampire, you may gain 1
> pool.
>
> Is that too powerful for a Trophy? What about:
> Trophy: Reliability 2
> Master. Trophy.
> During your untap phase, if this card is on a vampire, your prey loses
> 1 pool.
Too good, they stack and this would be the new I get 12 of these and
win
XZealot
Make this a trifle and it would be good
>
> Trophy: Destroyer
> Master. Trophy.
> Once during your turn, you may tap this card at the end of a
> successful (D) action to make the Methuselah targeted by that (D)
> action burn 1 pool. [You may not tap this card during a bleed action.]
I would make it a non-bleed D-action, but I like the idea.
Kushiel
> Yes Vulture's is a Bloodline discipline (and possibly a broken card)
Seriously? Like, I'm trying hard not to come off as a snarky jerk
here, and you've definitely embraced some unconventional opinions of
cards on the newsgroup before. But I really can't tell if you're
joking here or not about the Buffet being broken.
John Eno
XZealot
I like the card, and at obf w/ D'habi it is really quite good, and
throw in Succulent Vitae for fun.
Kushiel
> I like the card, and at obf w/ D'habi it is really quite good, and
> throw in Succulent Vitae for fun.
Okay, but immaterial.
The reason I asked is because this kind of conversation happens all
the time during the pre-play discussion of playtest cards, during
actual playtests: "Card X (a playtest card) sucks/is broken because of
how it compares to Card Y (an actual card)." If Card Y isn't something
obviously powerful or awful, usually people then talk about how they
rate Card Y on a power scale.
Since Juggernaut brought up Buffet as possibly broken, I wondered if
he meant that seriously, because that colors what he's saying about
the "playtest" cards under discussion here. I know that if I'd said
that, I'd only say it to people who'd know that I was joking because
obviously Buffet isn't even close to being broken, but I wouldn't
assume that people who don't know me would get that I was joking when
I said it. Since Juggernaut has a history of sharing opinions of power
levels that are pretty far from traditional, I wasn't sure if he was
joking or not, and whether or not he is says a lot about his comments
on the cards in this thread.
John Eno
Juggernaut1981
John,
Have you ever encountered David Vega's G2 D'habi Revenant Vulture's
Buffet deck?
I am yet to see a deck other than AAA finish a game with more pool
than it started (excluding pool-gain from VPs) and 5+ minions. It's a
fairly broken deck.
Ditch X D'habi's into your own ashheap during X player's turns because
of Burn Option. Half-Minion Tap one of your Ahrimanes. Vulture's
Buffet (1 blood + 1 pool + untap). Bleed using Legal/Social Charm
(using SPI for Stealth mostly, but also Maneuvers + S:CE). Repeat.
I've watched it take down a AAA deck and more than one or two DOM-
flick-bleeders. And cross your fingers you aren't it's predator,
because it's doubtful that you'll get a bleed around them and even
then a bleed for 7 is usually recouped in a turn or so.
ira...@gmail.com
> On Aug 16, 8:20 pm, "ira...@gmail.com" <ira...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Aug 12, 8:27 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > > Action
> > > +1 stealth
> > > Requires a ready vampire with no blood
> > > Enter combat with another vampire with at least 1 blood on him. In
> > > this combat you gain an extra maneuver and and a press.
>
> > The problem I see with this card is that it can only be used very
> > rarely, unless you build a deck around the 0 blood restriction.
> > Therefore, I recommend we remove the 0 blood restriction, and change
> > it to:
>
> > Action
> > Requires a vampire. May be used by a ready vampire with no blood
> > instead of hunting.
> > (D) Enter combat with a ready vampire with at least 2 blood controlled
> > by another Methuselah. During this combat, if the opposing vampire
> > loses at least 1 blood due to damage, the acting vampire gains 1 blood
> > at the end of the action.
>
> > That feels more similar to Ambush, Bum's Rush, Harass, etc. The
> > original text Norm posted is probably also balanced, but so corner-
> > case that I'd rather see a more generally usable rush.
>
> It offers something that other rush cards don't (i.e. taste). I
> thought it needed a big downside.
Yes, I agree that the card you proposed was probably balanced. My
critique was that it wasn't a good card to print, because it was very
corner-case.
> > Original: Requires 0 blood, gives +1 stealth, manuever, press, and
> > unlimited blood lost
> > Proposed: Usable by any vampire, 0 stealth, no man, no press, and gain
> > 1 blood max.
>
> Seems like a different card altogether. It's a good card, but no rush
> cards come without downsides, so what is this ones?
I agree that it's a different card, but it uses the same idea -
playable by a vamp with 0 blood, targets a vamp with blood, gain blood
from the action. I think your question is rhetorical, but in case it
isn't, the downside is that you can only target vamps with 2 or more
blood. Compare to Harass which gives you a press and lets you target
allies sometimes.
> > While we're talking about card ideas, what about:
> > Trophy: Reliability
> > Master. Trophy.
> > During your untap phase, if this card is on a vampire, you may gain 1
> > pool.
>
> > Is that too powerful for a Trophy? What about:
> > Trophy: Reliability 2
> > Master. Trophy.
> > During your untap phase, if this card is on a vampire, your prey loses
> > 1 pool.
>
> Too good, they stack and this would be the new I get 12 of these and win
You're right. What if they had the text, "A vampire may only have 1
Reliability." Is it playable and balanced then?
Ira
XZealot
Sure, it's just like Gambit Accepted which is probably easier to pull
off than a trophy.
Juggernaut1981
>
> - Show quoted text -
If you add a "Vampire can only have 1" clause, then will it basically
become a limited-scope Antediluvean Awakening? You and you can ping
your prey for 1 every turn, with no way to negate it and purely at my
whim since I played the trophy.
Doesn't sound very balanced. (Even if it is bloat instead of burn, it
still works out to be a relative-pool-loss for your prey)
Blooded Sand
Sounds balanced to me. And i play more tha my share of trophy decks,
so i know exactly how damn hard it is to get trophies into play. The
only 3 that are worthwhile at the moment are domain, HG and Revered
Kevin M.
> Sounds balanced to me. And i play more tha my share of trophy decks,
> so i know exactly how damn hard it is to get trophies into play. The
> only 3 that are worthwhile at the moment are domain, HG and Revered
It makes me happy when players disregard Trophy:Progeny.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
Blooded Sand
> Blooded Sand wrote:
> > Sounds balanced to me. And i play more tha my share of trophy decks,
> > so i know exactly how damn hard it is to get trophies into play. The
> > only 3 that are worthwhile at the moment are domain, HG and Revered
>
> It makes me happy when players disregard Trophy:Progeny.
>
> Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
> "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
> you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
> "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
> Please bid on my auctions!http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
OK, in specific, specialised, one trick pony decks, T:P is the bomb.
Generally speaking, for just about any other deck creating trophies?
not so strong...
Kevin M.
> "Kevin M." wrote:
>> Blooded Sand wrote:
>>> Sounds balanced to me. And i play more tha my share of trophy decks,
>>> so i know exactly how damn hard it is to get trophies into play. The
>>> only 3 that are worthwhile at the moment are domain, HG and Revered
>>
>> It makes me happy when players disregard Trophy:Progeny.
>
> Generally speaking, for just about any other deck creating trophies?
> not so strong...
How is it not almost exactly the same as an Embrace/other kid?
Perhaps the Master-ness of the card brings its value down, I guess.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
XZealot
> Blooded Sand wrote:
> > "Kevin M." wrote:
> >> Blooded Sand wrote:
> >>> Sounds balanced to me. And i play more tha my share of trophy decks,
> >>> so i know exactly how damn hard it is to get trophies into play. The
> >>> only 3 that are worthwhile at the moment are domain, HG and Revered
>
> >> It makes me happy when players disregard Trophy:Progeny.
>
> > OK, in specific, specialised, one trick pony decks, T:P is the bomb.
> > Generally speaking, for just about any other deck creating trophies?
> > not so strong...
>
> How is it not almost exactly the same as an Embrace/other kid?
It can act the turn it goes into play and it comes with 2 blood.
Kevin M.
> "Kevin M." wrote:
>> Blooded Sand wrote:
>>> "Kevin M." wrote:
>>>> Blooded Sand wrote:
>>>>> Sounds balanced to me. And i play more tha my share of trophy
>>>>> decks, so i know exactly how damn hard it is to get trophies
>>>>> into play. The only 3 that are worthwhile at the moment are
>>>>> domain, HG and Revered
>>
>>>> It makes me happy when players disregard Trophy:Progeny.
>>
>>> OK, in specific, specialised, one trick pony decks, T:P is the
>>> bomb. Generally speaking, for just about any other deck creating
>>> trophies? not so strong...
>>
>> How is it not almost exactly the same as an Embrace/other kid?
>
> It can act the turn it goes into play and it comes with 2 blood.
Thanks for helping BS understand how good T:P is! ;)
XZealot
> XZealot wrote:
> > "Kevin M." wrote:
> >> Blooded Sand wrote:
> >>> "Kevin M." wrote:
> >>>> Blooded Sand wrote:
> >>>>> Sounds balanced to me. And i play more tha my share of trophy
> >>>>> decks, so i know exactly how damn hard it is to get trophies
> >>>>> into play. The only 3 that are worthwhile at the moment are
> >>>>> domain, HG and Revered
>
> >>>> It makes me happy when players disregard Trophy:Progeny.
>
> >>> OK, in specific, specialised, one trick pony decks, T:P is the
> >>> bomb. Generally speaking, for just about any other deck creating
> >>> trophies? not so strong...
>
> >> How is it not almost exactly the same as an Embrace/other kid?
>
> > It can act the turn it goes into play and it comes with 2 blood.
>
> Thanks for helping BS understand how good T:P is! ;)
Yes, I am also glad that he ignored Trophy: Retainers which is
actually better than Trophy: Revered
Kushiel
> Have you ever encountered David Vega's G2 D'habi Revenant Vulture's
> Buffet deck?
Nope.
> I am yet to see a deck other than AAA finish a game with more pool
> than it started (excluding pool-gain from VPs) and 5+ minions. It's a
> fairly broken deck.
Okay. Thanks for taking the time to clarify your position.
John Eno
wumpus
No love for T: Library? And T: Diablerie is critical in many trophy
decks, which seems to me to make it 'worthwhile'.
Alex
James Coupe
>Ditch X D'habi's into your own ashheap during X player's turns because
>of Burn Option. Half-Minion Tap one of your Ahrimanes. Vulture's
>Buffet (1 blood + 1 pool + untap). Bleed using Legal/Social Charm
>(using SPI for Stealth mostly, but also Maneuvers + S:CE).
I'd be interested to know what you think makes this broken, compared to,
say, Kindred Spirits bleed.
By way of comparison, KS bleed has pool gain on the bleed. Obfuscate
stealth is free (largely), where Spiritus stealth/negative-intercept
uses blood in some cases. It weenifies quite well, so doesn't need
quite so much Minion Tapping - and weenies mean more bleeds, so you get
more pool from doing more bleeds, which partially offsets the loss of a
pool from VB. (Potentially, it offsets it wholly - it depends on the
ratios.) And I've certainly seen good weenie bleed ruthlessly tear up a
deck like AAA, depending on the relative skill of the players - and, of
course, a little luck either way. Combat defence is available if you
want it, although a number of players avoid it - it depends what you
want.
Similarly, any sort of Presence vote can generate a lot of blood and
pool from Voter Cap, while doing significant aggressive actions -
Shifts, KRC, Reckless, First Tradition etc. AAA might stand up to this
a little better - 6+ permanent votes does help! - but good Presence vote
can certainly do well in many tournaments.
This isn't to say that Vulture's Buffet can't be used well - nothing of
the sort. But I'm confused how a card that requires a more fiddly setup
and slightly more troublesome cardflow is borderline broken, when
compared to other top tier archetypes. Which is also to say, if it's
broken, how many other top tier archetypes are also broken? If that
number becomes reasonably large, it seems sort of... unhelpful to label
them broken.
To my mind, there are quite a lot of other good decks that can generate
similar levels of blood, pool and aggression all together.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
XZealot
I haven't had any luck with Trophy: Library that other cards just
aren't easier to get such as the Bitter and Sweet Story.
Trophy: Diablerie is great if you are in a environment where you have
to take down hard targets, but as a strategy, scoring trophies off of
allies (who are easily burnt) and weenies (who are easily burnt with
aggrivated damage) seems to work best for me.
XZealot
The difference is the Kindred Spirits bleed is common as dirt while
Vultures Buffet decks are impractical to assemble in real life due to
the rarity of the lynchpin card. "V:TES Broken" is the new bling-
bling that makes other people jealous.
Juggernaut1981
> stealth is free (largely), where Spiritus stealth/negative-intercept
> uses blood in some cases. It weenifies quite well, so doesn't need
> quite so much Minion Tapping - and weenies mean more bleeds, so you get
> more pool from doing more bleeds, which partially offsets the loss of a
> pool from VB. (Potentially, it offsets it wholly - it depends on the
> ratios.) And I've certainly seen good weenie bleed ruthlessly tear up a
> deck like AAA, depending on the relative skill of the players - and, of
> course, a little luck either way. Combat defence is available if you
> want it, although a number of players avoid it - it depends what you
> want.
> This isn't to say that Vulture's Buffet can't be used well - nothing of
> the sort. But I'm confused how a card that requires a more fiddly setup
> and slightly more troublesome cardflow is borderline broken, when
> compared to other top tier archetypes.
> To my mind, there are quite a lot of other good decks that can generate
> similar levels of blood, pool and aggression all together.
>
> --
> James Coupe
Assume a 70-card deck built roughly like this:
2x Howler 8 ANI PRE SPI obf Ahrimane:2
2x Siamese, The 7 PRE SPI ani pro Ahrimane:2
2x Cynthia Ingold 6 SPI ani for pre Ahrimane:2
2x Maria Stone Adv 5 FOR cel obf pre pro spi Ahrimane:3
2x Maria Stone 5 FOR cel obf pro !Gangrel:3
2x Nettie Hale 5 ani cel pre pro spi Ahrimane:2
Library [70 cards]
------------------------------------------------------------
Action [14]
6x Legal Manipulations
8x Vulture's Buffet
Action Modifier [8]
8x Aire of Elation
Combat [8]
8x Leapfrog
Combat/Action Modifier [10]
10x Swiftness of the Stag
Master [12]
6x Ashur Tablets
6x Minion Tap/Villein (Potentially I'd lean to Tap, not Villein)
Reaction [6]
4x Falcon's Eye
2x Wake with Evening's Freshness
Retainer [12]
10x D'habi Revenant *// Burn Option to cycle them into your own
ashheap ASAP.
2x Marijava Ghoul
Statistically there is at least 1 D'habi Revenant in your opening
hand, often two. This allows you to immediately begin the process of
ditching them. 1 in your discard, 1 in your prey's discard, if you
draw any more they go in the other discard phases on the table. You
can nearly always have the cards you need when you need them purely
because the "clog cards" are easily disposable (Burn Option).
James Coupe
>Statistically there is at least 1 D'habi Revenant in your opening
>hand, often two. This allows you to immediately begin the process of
>ditching them. 1 in your discard, 1 in your prey's discard, if you
>draw any more they go in the other discard phases on the table. You
>can nearly always have the cards you need when you need them purely
>because the "clog cards" are easily disposable (Burn Option).
That's lovely.
Could I, however, draw your attention to the question I asked? That
wasn't "How does this deck work?" or even "How do Burn Option cards
work?" It was why is this borderline broken compared to other powerful,
Tier 1/Tier 1.5 decks that achieve similar ends.
The deck looks like it has some fun tricks, and looks like it could
quite easily be pretty competitive in the right hands. I'm not seeing
the borderline brokenness, and you haven't explained how it's borderline
broken.
Are any of the cards rampantly overpowered? All the bleed cards are
pretty standard bleed cards. Vulture's Buffet is pretty solid, in that
it allows you to gain blood and pool, but there are other similarly good
cards out there - Con Boon is a monster for pool gain, as is Parity
Shift. Both can do potentially more than the Buffet, but Buffet has the
untap to compensate. Similarly, there are a variety of cards -
particularly for the Bloodlines - that allow strong blood gain that can
be turned into pool. Since you're using Tap/Villein anyway, the fact
that you don't get 1 pool off the action isn't quite so bothersome when
you're playing Concert Tour or Renewed Vigor or Emergency Rations,
possibly Benefit Performance (interesting but tricky).
Does it require the game to devolve into 'play X or anti-X', in the
manner of Return to Innocence? Not really. None of the individual
actions are so rampantly powerful that you need to be able to defend
against it all the time (such as ALWAYS having a bouncer to defend
against RtoI). None of the cards use special tech that's uncommonly
weird - perhaps in the manner of the introduction of the Imbued, where
suddenly a lot of successful tech was blown out of the water. Each of
the components can be targeted in pretty normal ways - attack the key
minions, block the key actions, blow up the pool with aggressive
actions, and so on. Certainly, a good player can defend against any
such attempts - but it requires skill, effort and a little luck, it's
not a no-brainer.
Are any of the cards completely out of whack with V:TES, in the way that
old Monocle of Clarity was or Madness of the Bard is? No, I think we
can quickly skip over this.
Are any of the cards undermining any of the fundamentals of the game,
such that the intended game structure is subverted? (A la the seat-
switchers and Succubus Club.) Not seeing it.
So, could you take some time to address why this is broken? You simply
seem to be describing a well-played deck that could fit in Tier 1 or
Tier 1.5 fairly comfortably.
Juggernaut1981
> Juggernaut1981 <brasscompo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Assume a 70-card deck built roughly like this:
> ...
> >Statistically there is at least 1 D'habi Revenant in your opening
> >hand, often two. This allows you to immediately begin the process of
> >ditching them. 1 in your discard, 1 in your prey's discard, if you
> >draw any more they go in the other discard phases on the table. You
> >can nearly always have the cards you need when you need them purely
> >because the "clog cards" are easily disposable (Burn Option).
>
> That's lovely.
>
> Could I, however, draw your attention to the question I asked? That
> wasn't "How does this deck work?" or even "How do Burn Option cards
> work?" It was why is this borderline broken compared to other powerful,
> Tier 1/Tier 1.5 decks that achieve similar ends.
>
> The deck looks like it has some fun tricks, and looks like it could
> quite easily be pretty competitive in the right hands. I'm not seeing
> the borderline brokenness, and you haven't explained how it's borderline
> broken.
> Are any of the cards undermining any of the fundamentals of the game,
> such that the intended game structure is subverted? (A la the seat-
> switchers and Succubus Club.) Not seeing it.
>
> So, could you take some time to address why this is broken? You simply
> seem to be describing a well-played deck that could fit in Tier 1 or
> Tier 1.5 fairly comfortably.
>
I was highlighting the fact that Vulture's Buffet is very easily
utilised to create a many-minion, multi-acting deck with significant
bloat and fairly-constant mild-stealth bleed. Hence why I suggested
it may have been *possibly* broken (2 blood + 1 pool + untap).
Sure, the deck is not Una-Tastic in it's stupendous multi-actions in a
turn, but it is harder to shut down in combat than your usual KS deck
(which has no combat defence) or against a Voter (again limited combat
package). Tends to get away from aggressive combat decks (enough
maneuvers & S:CE), etc.
XZealot
Dementation has Coma, Obfuscate has Swallowed by the Night/No Trace,
not to mention the ever popular Dodge/Fake Out.