Lazverinus, Thrall of Lambach
Walter Denny
Thrall of Lambach. This is one incredibly cool vamp. He intercepts, he
bleeds, he votes, he can soak damage and most importantly he smacks people
around for 3 damage without using his superior potence. As if that was not
enough he can make that 3 damage aggravated with his minor protean. This
vamp deserves his own deck. I was thinking of a deck with him and smaller
vamps. He could take out vamps with intercept and smack them around, while
the legions of smaller vamps bleed the hell out of my prey. Just a thought
needs a bit of fleshing out. Any vamp that hits for 3 damage, has superior
potence and can play Wolf Claws has a special place in my heart.
Walter Denny
"Nothings Trivial" the Crow
Ian Lee
I recently tried putting together a Protean/Potence deck. He went in along
with far too many high caps. The deck was crap, and I took it apart to try and
come up with different ideas. However, I was really impressed with how he did
on his own.
I have been tempted to try and build a deck that featured him more prominently.
Kyle and Vincent both have Potence, maybe something is workable there.
I've been rating vamps recently. No surprise to me, few of the !Ventrue come
out well. They seem to be a pretty sorry bunch, especially on the lower end.
Lazverinus was a notable exception.
Derek Ray
>>I am sitting here looking at my pretty new cards, and I notice Lazverinus,
>>Thrall of Lambach. This is one incredibly cool vamp. He intercepts, he
>>bleeds, he votes, he can soak damage and most importantly he smacks people
>>around for 3 damage without using his superior potence. As if that was not
>>enough he can make that 3 damage aggravated with his minor protean. This
>>vamp deserves his own deck. I was thinking of a deck with him and smaller
>>vamps. He could take out vamps with intercept and smack them around, while
>>the legions of smaller vamps bleed the hell out of my prey. Just a thought
>>needs a bit of fleshing out. Any vamp that hits for 3 damage, has superior
>>potence and can play Wolf Claws has a special place in my heart.
Lazverinuts is a happy person. He can do amazing things. He is,
unfortunately, a 10-cap, and as such is vulnerable to all the unhappy
things that involve 10-caps, such as getting Hostile Takeovered,
Pentexly Subverted, and the like. Although at least he can't be
Kiss-My-Ra'd.
>I recently tried putting together a Protean/Potence deck. He went in along
>with far too many high caps. The deck was crap, and I took it apart to try and
>come up with different ideas. However, I was really impressed with how he did
>on his own.
He's a thug. Pure and simple. Torn Signpost/Immortal
Grapple/Claws... 5 aggravated damage, cost 1 blood. Should burn most
vamps. But you HAVE to build the deck around him, and he's way, way
expensive.
>I have been tempted to try and build a deck that featured him more prominently.
> Kyle and Vincent both have Potence, maybe something is workable there.
>
>I've been rating vamps recently. No surprise to me, few of the !Ventrue come
>out well. They seem to be a pretty sorry bunch, especially on the lower end.
>Lazverinus was a notable exception.
Ooooo, I wouldn't say THAT. The !Ventrue can bleed-and-prevent pretty
well, and they carry an awful lot of intercept. Ingrid can be very
nasty with DOM/for. Billy is Mr. Interceptor, Vanessa can Govern out
all the rest, and Marlene just rules. Dylan has +1 bleed, how can
that be bad?
If you look closely at the disciplines, you realize that inferior
Auspex is almost as good as superior for intercept; that inferior
Dominate is almost as good as superior for bleed; and inferior
Fortitude is almost as good as superior for prevention. All your guys
are functional in SOME form or other.
Just got to not think of them as fiendish stealth-bleeder hounds. =)
-- Derek
Goon-of-the-Month club member
Ian Lee
>well, and they carry an awful lot of intercept. Ingrid can be very
>nasty with DOM/for. Billy is Mr. Interceptor, Vanessa can Govern out
>all the rest, and Marlene just rules. Dylan has +1 bleed, how can
>that be bad?
>
>If you look closely at the disciplines, you realize that inferior
>Auspex is almost as good as superior for intercept; that inferior
>Dominate is almost as good as superior for bleed; and inferior
>Fortitude is almost as good as superior for prevention. All your guys
>are functional in SOME form or other.
>
>Just got to not think of them as fiendish stealth-bleeder hounds.
One of my favorite clans from the RPG were !Ventrue (first edition, back when
they had an interesting discipline assortment and an interesting background).
Within the CCG, they have one of my favorite discipline combinations. However,
I've given up on them for the moment.
Strictly attempting to use them as a clan, which means only using their 3
disciplines, I find them really boring. Their discipline combination is
(probably) the best for surviving. They can stop evil actions, bounce
endlessly, and survive most combat. But, they can't do anything. They can't
bleed with no stealth. They can't vote with no votes. They can't fight with
no punch and few combat options. Their individual disciplines are solid. But,
together they add up to defense, defense, defense.
The starter does them justice, except it can't even defend beyond being the
only bleed bouncer.
As for their vampires, so many are missing important superiors, that bringing
out a bunch, which their clan only cards encourage, isn't all that great. (My
current rating system heavily weights to superior in clan disciplines,
reflecting value at using in a single clan deck.) Speaking of their clan
specific cards, they are pretty boring as well - lots of blood management stuff
which has no synergy with each other and some vote stuff, which with KM, may be
a bit more interesting if you play a deck of nothing but Quentin, Kyle, and
Laz.
akais...@my-deja.com
Laz is the V-tes "piudituttosauro" (italian for: more-than-all-others-
saurus)....he is not only a wonderful hitter, but it is a archbishop
too (Eternal Vigilance = near infinite bleed bounce), he is a !Ventrue
(he can call a Demonstration) so he can "trade" in a political
environment (not to mention his 2 votes) and (at last) have a cute
little sister (Lisette Vizquel) that matches his disciplines at only 6
caps (POT, DOM, pro)...it's not so difficult to build a deck based on
this dirty pair.
Bye
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
James Coupe
<cur...@aol.com> writes
>They can't
>bleed with no stealth.
If you have the cards, I'd suggest Bonding and Dominate Kine. (+2
stealth)
With Dominate, you also have Seduction and The Sleeping Mind. With
Fortitude, you can throw a few Kiss of Ras in to throw them into torpor.
(Not guaranteed, but hey, it's worth trying.) Add Anarch Troublemaker
(fitting for a !Ven deck, too) and Misdirection for some fun (and
defensively, you'll stand up to the Anarch coming back round since you
have plenty of Wake and Bounce, most likely).
From Fortitude, you can also make a few bleeds unblockable when you need
to. Perhaps through things like Daring the Dawn onto a Storage Annex,
which you stand a reasonable chance of defending with your Auspex.
Revelations can also *really* help. Assuming you can get it out, you
can see what intercept they have and time it properly. You don't need
lots of stealth (so you can play intercept to defend the Revelations)
when you know they can't block you. If you stack Seduction and Sleeping
Mind and the like on it, you can "guarantee" that one action and
hopefully get some more through.
--
James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D
"What's wrong with wanting more?
If you can fly -- then soar!
With all there is, why settle for just a piece of sky?"
Reyda
<akais...@my-deja.com> a écrit dans le message news:
92bdno$892$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Hi !
>
> Laz is the V-tes "piudituttosauro" (italian for: more-than-all-others-
> saurus)....he is not only a wonderful hitter, but it is a archbishop
> too (Eternal Vigilance = near infinite bleed bounce
Sorry but you must attempt to block when untapping under eternal vigilance.
No stealth, no bounce.
But blocking with a 3 strength monster is always a nice thing, i suppose =)
reyda
mads...@my-deja.com
With those 3 disciplines(POT DOM pro) It seems like a good bruise and
bleed deck. Inclusion of Auspex and Fortitude seems tricky but useful
for defense.
I was also just thinking about building a deck myself =)
Johann
bobby_doc
first, when you can use Govern to get up the others.
Maybe I should put in a couple of Pulse.
Freak Drive Rules!
Vamps (12)
4 Lazverinus (10, Ventrue, AUS, DOM, FOR, POT, pro, Archbishop, +2
handdamage)
2 Kyle (9, Ventrue, AUS, DOM, for, POT, Cardinal, get other vamp blood)
1 Dominique (7, Ventrue, AUS, dom, FOR, d-action start destroying loc)
1 Vanessa (6, Ventrue, aus, DOM, FOR)
1 Marlene (6, Ventrue, AUS, DOM, for)
1 Dylan (6, Ventrue, aus, dom, for, pro, +1 bleed)
1 Ingrid Russo (4, Ventrue, for, DOM)
1 Samson (2, Ventrue, dom)
Masters (17)
1 Hungry Coyote
1 Dreams of the Sphinx
6 Blood doll
1 Corporate Hunting Ground
1 Dominate
2 Fortitude
1 Effective Management
1 Information Highway
2 Ventrue Investment
Fortitude (18)
3 Skin of Rock
3 Indomiability
3 Unflinching Persistance
3 Daring the Dawn
4 Freak Drive
2 Kiss of Ra
Auspex (11)
4 Enhanced Senses
3 Precognition
3 Spirits touch
1 Eagles Sight
Potence (8)
6 Immortal Grapple
1 Thrown Sewerlid
1 Undead Strength
Dominate (20)
7 Govern the Unaligned
4 Bonding
4 Deflection
2 Kine Dominate
3 Grave Robbing
Protean (6)
3 Bone Spur
3 Claws of the Dead
Equipment / Retainers (3)
1 Palatial estate
1 Mr. Winthrop
1 Sportbike
Miscallenous (16)
3 Taste of Vitae
7 Forced Awakening
2 Eternal Vigilance
1 Creation Rites
1 Cardinal Benediction
2 Embrace
akais...@my-deja.com
Mmmmm.....I'm not sure about this; I mean, Eternal Vigilance allows you
to "untap your minion AND attempt to block", "AND", not "ONLY TO" !
You can untap and try a block, but if you fail (and if your opponent
does not play superior Faceless Night) you are still untapped, so you
can play bleed bounce (like 2nd tradition).
Nevertheless...Laz usually try to put his claws on the unlucky
opponent, even without the need to accomplish Eternal Vigilance
requirements !
No stealth ? what do you mean: no stealth ?
Akaisuisei
wes
It focuses on unblockable bleeds for massive amounts by a slow buildup of
Pulse of the Canaille, Conditioning with some Fortitude modifier cards...
and liberal doses of Force of Will.
It does take a while to set up but with Telepathic Counters, Misdirections,
intercept, Obedience and damage prevention cards... time is not so much of
an issue. Pretty much anything my opponents can throw at me can be thwarted
successfully with something.
It is probably not a well-designed deck but it is a hell of a lot of fun to
play with. It's main problem of course is speed and getting the right
combinations for those Nasty Bleeds (tm) can be aggravating (and aggravated
depending on which combo). I have added a few Storage Annexes and an Elder
Library to help offset that.
I think one of the most interesting things about this clan is just that they
have a different set of disciplines to play with. Similarly, although City
Gangrel may not be a great clan to play with either, the fun of combining
their peculiar set of disciplines adds some novelty to the game.
Cheers,
WES
Reyda
> vigilance.
> > No stealth, no bounce.
> > But blocking with a 3 strength monster is always a nice thing, i
> suppose =)
> >
> > reyda
>
> Mmmmm.....I'm not sure about this; I mean, Eternal Vigilance allows you
> to "untap your minion AND attempt to block", "AND", not "ONLY TO" !
> You can untap and try a block, but if you fail (and if your opponent
> does not play superior Faceless Night) you are still untapped, so you
> can play bleed bounce (like 2nd tradition).
> Nevertheless...Laz usually try to put his claws on the unlucky
> opponent, even without the need to accomplish Eternal Vigilance
> requirements !
> No stealth ? what do you mean: no stealth ?
I just mean one simple thing : you said "Eternal Vigilance + Lazverinus =
nearly infinite bounce."
this is wrong cause you can bounce a bleed only if you failed to block it.
Eternal vigilance, like 2nd tradition implies a blocking attempt -and we
both know it. If your opponent plays with no stealth (and a lot of clans
don't play stealth when bleeding) you'll enter combat. So you'd better play
Lazverinus as a pure fighter rather than as a "bleed bouncer" if you plan to
use Eternal vigilance as a main strategy. That's what i wanted to say. No
offense there ! .
reyda
(yea, it may sound funny, i'm french after all)
Derek Ray
>I have a fairly successful (albeit slow) !Ventrue deck...
>
>It focuses on unblockable bleeds for massive amounts by a slow buildup of
>Pulse of the Canaille, Conditioning with some Fortitude modifier cards...
>and liberal doses of Force of Will.
I earned my "diablerie king" title by making a Pulse of the
Canaille/Force of Will/Conditioning/Day Op deck. It did it all in one
go (bleed for 8!), and then the entire table came and ate my vampire.
Then I did it AGAIN later with another vampire and lots of intercept
in hand. They STILL ate my vampire. Something about unblockable
bleeds for 8 out of nowhere seems to get to people. I don't know why.
=)
>I think one of the most interesting things about this clan is just that they
>have a different set of disciplines to play with. Similarly, although City
>Gangrel may not be a great clan to play with either, the fun of combining
>their peculiar set of disciplines adds some novelty to the game.
This is a big point behind my wanting people to not screw with the
!Ventrue disciplines. aus/dom/for is NOT a weak combination; it just
requires some effort and thought to make work, as opposed to OBF/DOM,
which is sort of a "gimme". But I like having a clan be DIFFERENT if
it's a different clan; something about the Art Fags/Goth Geeks'
disciplines matching up just turns me off a lot. =)
skaffen_...@my-deja.com
Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2000 18:58:06 -0800, "wes" <gh...@mnsi.net> wrote:
>
> >I have a fairly successful (albeit slow) !Ventrue deck...
> >
> >It focuses on unblockable bleeds for massive amounts by a slow buildup of
> >Pulse of the Canaille, Conditioning with some Fortitude modifier cards...
> >and liberal doses of Force of Will.
>
> I earned my "diablerie king" title by making a Pulse of the
> Canaille/Force of Will/Conditioning/Day Op deck. It did it all in one
> go (bleed for 8!), and then the entire table came and ate my vampire.
>
> Then I did it AGAIN later with another vampire and lots of intercept
> in hand. They STILL ate my vampire. Something about unblockable
> bleeds for 8 out of nowhere seems to get to people. I don't know why.
> =)
>
Actually I had a very toolboxy Ventrue ToGP / unblockable bleed deck for our
Xmas outing. With all those Tzmisce decks flying around I thought it would be
a nice surprise. Anyway, an unblockable bleed under the eyes of a
trigger-happy Meshenka won me the game, and I never had a problem with
getting good old Wilhelm Waldburg back from torpor. Roland Lussarian was
sitting there with Humanitas (Catacombs were also included, see "toolboxy"
;-)) and willing to do the job daring the dawn, if necessary...
Regards
Skaffen
Chantry Elder Of Munich
"Our hearts discern wild images of Death,
Shadows and shoals that edge eternity."
skaffen_...@my-deja.com
bobby_doc <bobb...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I built this deck some days ago. Really essential to influence Laz
> first, when you can use Govern to get up the others.
> Maybe I should put in a couple of Pulse.
>
As already pointed out by Derek if you plan on pulsing Marlene, then bleed
with Force Of Will (or Govern), Day Op and Conditioning, you have to get her
out of torpor immediatly - or she's dead meat.
> Freak Drive Rules!
>
> Vamps (12)
> 4 Lazverinus (10, Ventrue, AUS, DOM, FOR, POT, pro, Archbishop, +2
> handdamage)
> 2 Kyle (9, Ventrue, AUS, DOM, for, POT, Cardinal, get other vamp blood)
> 1 Dominique (7, Ventrue, AUS, dom, FOR, d-action start destroying loc)
> 1 Vanessa (6, Ventrue, aus, DOM, FOR)
> 1 Marlene (6, Ventrue, AUS, DOM, for)
> 1 Dylan (6, Ventrue, aus, dom, for, pro, +1 bleed)
> 1 Ingrid Russo (4, Ventrue, for, DOM)
> 1 Samson (2, Ventrue, dom)
Massive crypt, as is to be expected in a Laz deck. Still 2 Kyle seem to be
excessive, he's like Marlene with POT (so you grapple and then what? Strike
hands?) and a Cardinal (but you don't play politics yourself. Defense? How
about Demonstration, Delaying Tactics, Kindred Coercion?). If you want
potence, why not go for one Vincent Day?
>
> Masters (17)
> 1 Hungry Coyote
> 1 Dreams of the Sphinx
> 6 Blood doll
> 1 Corporate Hunting Ground
> 1 Dominate
> 2 Fortitude
> 1 Effective Management
> 1 Information Highway
> 2 Ventrue Investment
I guess the skill cards are for the embraced kindred. I would ditch both
(skill cards and the little ones), or maybe substitute them for Protean, so
it's not only Laz and Dylan that have to do the dirty work (Yeah, we all have
wet dreams about +66 aggravated damage, but really: Most often a poke in the
eye is enough, and if you want to graverob them even better, cause they're
less anaemic).
I'd also take out the HG and make that Demonstration. Ventrue Investment is
not as bad as your nomal Investment, but it still takes master phase actions
to empty - and you have many master cards. Take them out, replace with (your
choice) some permanent intercept location, more Blood Dolls, The Rack or
another Info HW (or Tomb) for speed.
>
> Fortitude (18)
> 3 Skin of Rock
> 3 Indomiability
> 3 Unflinching Persistance
> 3 Daring the Dawn
> 4 Freak Drive
> 2 Kiss of Ra
>
Depends on the metagame, of course, but my prevention diet tends to be
straight Skin Of Steel and a few Hidden Strength for environmental damage.
What is Indomitability for? If your strike is aggravated, you don't need to
press.
Kiss My Ra is a card much talked about, but I rarely see it played. It's
expensive, and you have to take an action someone is willing to block. I'd
rather have that bleed come through, honestly...
> Auspex (11)
> 4 Enhanced Senses
> 3 Precognition
> 3 Spirits touch
> 1 Eagles Sight
>
I'll leave the Pulse question to you. A few more Eagles Sight so you can
block your prey's actions. Maybe, as suggested elsewhere in this thread,
Revelations should go in as well.
> Potence (8)
> 6 Immortal Grapple
> 1 Thrown Sewerlid
> 1 Undead Strength
>
You want to grappel and poke. Ditch Undead Strength and Thrown Gate, if you
have slots left in the end, put in a few Disarms for the traditional
"grapple, strike, prevent and rip their arms" game.
> Dominate (20)
> 7 Govern the Unaligned
> 4 Bonding
> 4 Deflection
> 2 Kine Dominate
> 3 Grave Robbing
>
A few Conditionings could go in here for the old "Bleed for one... Blocks?"
effect... But that would mean losing the Grave Robbing angle.
> Protean (6)
> 3 Bone Spur
> 3 Claws of the Dead
>
> Equipment / Retainers (3)
> 1 Palatial estate
> 1 Mr. Winthrop
> 1 Sportbike
>
Ahem... That’s three equip actions you can't really afford as normally you
will play with 3 vamps max. I'd replace that with master cards (see above).
> Miscallenous (16)
> 3 Taste of Vitae
> 7 Forced Awakening
> 2 Eternal Vigilance
> 1 Creation Rites
> 1 Cardinal Benediction
> 2 Embrace
>
Again, I don't know how useful the little ones would be. Also keep in mind
that if you want to wake and deflect, Forced Awakening costs you a blood.
Maybe change a few into WWEF?
Cardinal Benediction is pretty pointless. You need a vampire with 7 or higher
capacity. Laz is Archbishop and fine with that, Kyle already a Cardinal, that
leaves Dominique...
Eternal Vigilance on Laz is cool, but mind that he's out of the "unblockable
bleed for oomph" game with it.
Regards
Skaffen
Chantry Elder Of Munich
"Our hearts discern wild images of Death,
Shadows and shoals that edge eternity."
bobby_doc
> > Vamps (12)
> > 4 Lazverinus (10, Ventrue, AUS, DOM, FOR, POT, pro, Archbishop, +2
> > handdamage)
> > 2 Kyle (9, Ventrue, AUS, DOM, for, POT, Cardinal, get other vamp
blood)
> > 1 Dominique (7, Ventrue, AUS, dom, FOR, d-action start destroying
loc)
> > 1 Vanessa (6, Ventrue, aus, DOM, FOR)
> > 1 Marlene (6, Ventrue, AUS, DOM, for)
> > 1 Dylan (6, Ventrue, aus, dom, for, pro, +1 bleed)
> > 1 Ingrid Russo (4, Ventrue, for, DOM)
> > 1 Samson (2, Ventrue, dom)
>
> Massive crypt, as is to be expected in a Laz deck. Still 2 Kyle seem
> to be excessive, he's like Marlene with POT (so you grapple and then
> what? Strike hands?) and a Cardinal (but you don't play politics
> yourself. Defense? How about Demonstration, Delaying Tactics, Kindred
> Coercion?). If you want potence, why not go for one Vincent Day?
Good point about Kyle. I should play with more potence (disarm, torn,
undead) if I should benefit from his POT.
> > Masters (17)
> > 1 Hungry Coyote
> > 1 Dreams of the Sphinx
> > 6 Blood doll
> > 1 Corporate Hunting Ground
> > 1 Dominate
> > 2 Fortitude
> > 1 Effective Management
> > 1 Information Highway
> > 2 Ventrue Investment
>
> I guess the skill cards are for the embraced kindred.
Yes, and for vamps that don't have superior.
> I'd also take out the HG and make that Demonstration. Ventrue
> Investment is not as bad as your nomal Investment, but it still takes
> master phase actions to empty - and you have many master cards. Take
> them out, replace with (your choice) some permanent intercept
> location, more Blood Dolls, The Rack or
> another Info HW (or Tomb) for speed.
Hmm, maybe. The Rack is definatly an idea. Laz with vigilance and Rack
will cause serious problems for my prey.
> > Fortitude (18)
> > 3 Skin of Rock
> > 3 Indomiability
> > 3 Unflinching Persistance
> > 3 Daring the Dawn
> > 4 Freak Drive
> > 2 Kiss of Ra
> >
>
> Depends on the metagame, of course, but my prevention diet tends to be
> straight Skin Of Steel and a few Hidden Strength for environmental
> damage.
> What is Indomitability for? If your strike is aggravated, you don't
> need to press.
When I meet preventers (quite popular here) it could be good with a
press. But you got a point. Maybe I will change them.
> Kiss My Ra is a card much talked about, but I rarely see it played.
> It's expensive, and you have to take an action someone is willing to
> block. I'd rather have that bleed come through, honestly...
Kiss of Ra and Grave Robbing is a fun (maybe not so likely) combo.
...or Kiss and diablere.
> > Potence (8)
> > 6 Immortal Grapple
> > 1 Thrown Sewerlid
> > 1 Undead Strength
> >
>
> You want to grappel and poke. Ditch Undead Strength and Thrown Gate,
> if you have slots left in the end, put in a few Disarms for the
> traditional "grapple, strike, prevent and rip their arms" game.
Yes, maybe some more potence cards.
> > Dominate (20)
> > 7 Govern the Unaligned
> > 4 Bonding
> > 4 Deflection
> > 2 Kine Dominate
> > 3 Grave Robbing
> A few Conditionings.
Yes, I have already noticed some problems with offense. A couple of
Conditioning will do fine.
> > Equipment / Retainers (3)
> > 1 Palatial estate
> > 1 Mr. Winthrop
> > 1 Sportbike
> >
>
> Ahem... That’s three equip actions you can't really afford as
> normally you will play with 3 vamps max. I'd replace that with master
> cards (see above).
This have not been any problem.
> > Miscallenous (16)
> > 3 Taste of Vitae
> > 7 Forced Awakening
> > 2 Eternal Vigilance
> > 1 Creation Rites
> > 1 Cardinal Benediction
> > 2 Embrace
> Again, I don't know how useful the little ones would be. Also keep in
> mind that if you want to wake and deflect, Forced Awakening costs you
> a blood. Maybe change a few into WWEF?
The little ones are good if I want to stick with my Investments. Forced
don't cost a blood if my block succeeds, so I will keep them.
> Cardinal Benediction is pretty pointless.
Also have three cap 6, and if I put a skillcard on one...
Good for vote defense and if I want to diablere.
Thanks for all advices!
Regards
Bobby_Doc
LSJ
> "Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote:
> > Sorry but you must attempt to block when untapping under eternal
> > vigilance.
>
> to "untap your minion AND attempt to block", "AND", not "ONLY TO" !
Correct. You untap and (have to) attempt to block - but if the
block fails, you are still untapped (and free to do all the things
a ready untapped minion can do, like react).
> You can untap and try a block, but if you fail (and if your opponent
> does not play superior Faceless Night) you are still untapped, so you
> can play bleed bounce (like 2nd tradition).
You can still play Deflection even if Faceless Night superior will
ultimately leave you tapped.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
wes
> > Investment is not as bad as your nomal Investment, but it still takes
> > master phase actions to empty - and you have many master cards. Take
> > them out, replace with (your choice) some permanent intercept
> > location, more Blood Dolls, The Rack or
> > another Info HW (or Tomb) for speed.
Ventrue Investment is also only good if you have enough !Ventrue out and
considering the size of your crypt you are looking at either a low amount of
pool (granted... for free) and only in the mid to late game. My own !Ventrue
deck has an average size of 4.00 and therefore more likely to use that card.
I also notice that I tend to discard that card more often than I play it...
I usually can't afford to hold it or I have better Masters to play. At least
with STI you can just play it and leave it there until that turn where you
have no Masters to play OR a desperate need for the pool I guess. When
choosing my Master slots for any deck, I try to think in terms of timing as
much as general utility. When dealing with a deck with BIG vampires, you
need to consider that you may not even be able to play most Master cards
until your third or fourth turn. I'm not sure if any of you have a policy
for this... anybody have a ratio of some sort for Masters with requirements?
I'll try to post my !Ventrue deck tomorrow. As I said, it's basically a
toolbox/fun deck and therefore crap... but maybe we can tweak it into
something that can survive AND be fun.
Cheers,
WES
Chris Shorb
>
> So how about it guys? Any ideas for a kick ass Lazverinus/Lissette deck?
> With those 3 disciplines(POT DOM pro) It seems like a good bruise and
> bleed deck. Inclusion of Auspex and Fortitude seems tricky but useful
> for defense.
I wouldn't even include any Fort cards, except maybe Freak D and
Masochism to pay for them. Use Skin of Marble to prevent, and Claws for
agg. Govern/Scouting for bleed/poolgain. They block? Skin of Marble,
IG, claws. They try to run away? Form of the Ghost. Francisco Domingo
Polonia is good, since he can get +1 bleed without a card. Pool gain
with Blood of Sabbat, and you are cooking.
Chris
>
> I was also just thinking about building a deck myself =)
>
> Johann
>
> Sent via Deja.com
> http://www.deja.com/
--
chris
<www.vtesinla.org> (A V:TES site in development)
ultimate disc - V:TES - hockey
v:ekn prince of torrance, ca
skaffen_amtiskaw
At least
>with STI you can just play it and leave it there until that turn where you
>have no Masters to play OR a desperate need for the pool I guess.
But you can do the same with the Ventrue Investment:
Card text VI:
Master. Move one blood counter from the blood bank to this card for
each Ventrue Antitribu you control. You may use a master phase action
to move 1 blood from this card to your pool. Burn this card when the
last blood counter on it is removed.
Card text STI:
Master. Move 3 blood from the blood bank to this card. You may use a
master phase action to move 1 blood from this card to your blood pool.
Burn this card when the last blood counter on it is removed.
Note that both cards are the same when it comes to getting the blood
off them.
When
>choosing my Master slots for any deck, I try to think in terms of timing as
>much as general utility. When dealing with a deck with BIG vampires, you
>need to consider that you may not even be able to play most Master cards
>until your third or fourth turn. I'm not sure if any of you have a policy
>for this... anybody have a ratio of some sort for Masters with requirements?
>
Well, if you ask me: I never play with Investments ;-) If I have a
(more or less) focused clan deck, clan-specific Masters make no
difference to normal Masters. It might be annoying to have that
Ventrue HQ in your starting hand, but as you won't be playing many
cards before your first minion comes out, it doesn't matter too much.
>I'll try to post my !Ventrue deck tomorrow. As I said, it's basically a
>toolbox/fun deck and therefore crap... but maybe we can tweak it into
>something that can survive AND be fun.
>
Do so! Toolbox slash fun decks are not necessarily crap, sometimes
they are the germ of a new killer strategy.
wes
>
> Card text VI:
> Master. Move one blood counter from the blood bank to this card for
> each Ventrue Antitribu you control. You may use a master phase action
> to move 1 blood from this card to your pool. Burn this card when the
> last blood counter on it is removed.
>
> Card text STI:
> Master. Move 3 blood from the blood bank to this card. You may use a
> master phase action to move 1 blood from this card to your blood pool.
> Burn this card when the last blood counter on it is removed.
>
> Note that both cards are the same when it comes to getting the blood
> off them.
Yes, but my point was that STI can be played at ANY point in the game, with
more of a chance to actually remove the blood. Ventrue Investment, in order
to be worth playing IMHO needs to be played when you have at least three
!Ventrue out. Otherwise, STI is a better return on my investment.
With VI, here are the basic scenarios:
1) You have NO !Ventrue. Card cannot be played.
2) You have ONE !Ventrue out. You get one blood on the VI card and it
basically becomes a less effective version of Ascendance, wasting two master
phase actions for one pool.
3) You have TWO !Ventrue out. You get two blood on the VI. You use three
master phase actions to get two pool. To get two vamps out, you are looking
at on average say 10 transfers and therefore at least three turns. You are
then waiting another two turns (at least) to get your investment back. This
is assuming you don't have better Masters to play.
4) You have THREE !Ventrue out. You get three blood on the VI. You use four
master phase actions to get three pool. Using the formula above, you are
looking at on average 15 transfers or your 4th or 5th turn. Then, you are
waiting three turns (at least) to remove the blood.
I think someone said the average amount of turns in a game of Jyhad is TEN
(for each player). Therefore, the only time this card would be of any use
would be if I got it at exactly the right time (unlikely) or if I was
somehow sure the game would be extended longer than average. The latter
might be possible with an intercept deck like most !Ventrue would be.
Also, if you are using smaller !Ventrue, this card becomes much more useful.
Mine is a fairly low average capacity, and I am relatively likely to get
three !Ventrue out in a short time.
> Well, if you ask me: I never play with Investments ;-) If I have a
> (more or less) focused clan deck, clan-specific Masters make no
> difference to normal Masters. It might be annoying to have that
> Ventrue HQ in your starting hand, but as you won't be playing many
> cards before your first minion comes out, it doesn't matter too much.
>
> >I'll try to post my !Ventrue deck tomorrow. As I said, it's basically a
> >toolbox/fun deck and therefore crap... but maybe we can tweak it into
> >something that can survive AND be fun.
> >
>
> Do so! Toolbox slash fun decks are not necessarily crap, sometimes
> they are the germ of a new killer strategy.
Ok, here it is... as I said, it's probably crap, but it seems to play well
and is a lot of fun.
CRYPT
Franciscus 1 aus
Dieter Kleist 2 aus
Brazil 2 aus
Samson 2 dom
Jaun Cali 3 aus for
Aleph 4 AUS dom
Ingrid Russo 4 DOM for
Peter Blaine 4 aus dom for
Billy 5 AUS dom for
Dylan 6 aus dom for cel pro
2 * Lazvernius 10 AUS DOM FOR POT pro
TOTAL 53 - AVERAGE 4.4 - BEST 7 - WORST 31
Notes: I originally wanted this deck to be concentrated around Laz, which it
still is more or less. I need the weenies in order to protect myself while I
set up my combos. Having him in play was nice but not at all essential, so I
took out 2 extra copies of him.
MASTERS (18 cards - 20 %)
3 * Blood Doll
2 * Corporate HG
2 * Storage Annex (VERY useful for setting up the unblockable bleed combos)
Auspex
Dominate
Fortitude
Short-Term Investment
Ventrue Investment (yeah, I know... but it was from this deck that I
determined it was wallpapered, and I haven't taken it out yet)
Effective Management
Antedilluvean Awakening
Elder Library
The Rack
Guardian Angel
Minion Tap
MINION (72 Cards - 80 %)
7 * Telepathic Counter (Basically the reason I need the auspex weenies)
6 * Bonding
4 * Govern the Unaligned (used more at inferior in practice)
4 * Force of Will
4 * Skin of Steel
4 * Forced Awakening
4 * Superior Mettle
4 * Obedience
3 * Daring the Dawn
3 * Freak Drive
3 * Spirit's Touch
2 * Disputed Territory
2 * Pulse of the Canaille (combined with Force of Will and Bonding, works
like a charm)
2 * KRC
2 * Eternal Vigilance
Restoration (toolbox starts here)
Masochism
Conditioning
Graverobbing
Day Operation
Foreshadowing Destruction
Palatial Estate
Leather Jacket
Revelations
Crusade: Miami
Crusade: Atlanta (the Crusades were included just so I could show the
opposing player the funny images of Gilbert Duane and Rake getting smoked by
Sabbat)
Ancient Influence
Consang Boon
Kine Dominance
Banishment
.44 Magnum
Sport Bike
Bone Spur (purely surprise value, there are two vamps who have protean)
You may notice that there are absolutely no bleed-bounce cards. The reason
is that this deck was designed for a two-player match and therefore those
cards would have no use. They can be subbed for Telepathic Counters in if
the deck is played in a larger game. Also, the 'coup de grace' with everyone
bleeding 'unblockably' for large amounts would be kind of silly in a
multi-player game as you would have every minion in torpor at the end of
your turn. This deck's primary weakness is the time it takes to set up the
combos, but Storage Annex and Elder Library help with that. It defends
itself well against all types of decks in theory. Bleeds are reduced or
intercepted. Rush decks are hopefully stalled with fortitude prevention
cards and Obedience. Votes are intercepted or out-voted (well, again this
was a two-player scenario so not too hard to do...)
Cheers,
WES
Tim Eijpe
mads...@my-deja.com wrote:
> So how about it guys? Any ideas for a kick ass Lazverinus/Lissette
deck?
> With those 3 disciplines(POT DOM pro) It seems like a good bruise and
> bleed deck. Inclusion of Auspex and Fortitude seems tricky but useful
> for defense.
>
> I was also just thinking about building a deck myself =)
>
> Johann
>
deck at the tournament winning decks.
Additionally I have been fooling around with a !Ventrue Manipulative
Vote deck using kindred Manipulation, telepathic Vote Counting
Proivate audience and Demonstration with some Crusades, working around
Kyle, Laz and Vincent day and Jimmy Dunn, amongst others. It packs a few
Potence cards, 3 IG, 2 TS, 3 Undead Strenght and 2 Disarm, which'll
surprize most opponents and makes the Intercept count.
Kinda nifty, but when the crypt goes bad, the deck falls apart.
Tim
--
A.A.H. Tim Eijpe
V:EKN Prince of Utrecht
The Netherlands
E-mail: time...@hotmail.com
PROPHECY OF GEHENNA:
On The First Day Of Gehenna
The Shrieking Wind Shall Be Silent
And When A Black Sun Hangs From A Somber Sky
Caine's Sleeping Children Shall Once Again Arise
Ancient-The Cainian Chronicles
skaffen_...@my-deja.com
>
> Yes, but my point was that STI can be played at ANY point in the game, with
> more of a chance to actually remove the blood. Ventrue Investment, in order
> to be worth playing IMHO needs to be played when you have at least three
> !Ventrue out. Otherwise, STI is a better return on my investment.
>
Well, VI is better even with just 2 !Ven: STI cost one to play, so it nets
you 2 pool in 3 turns. VI costs nothing, so in case of 2 !Ven in play it nets
you 2 pool in 2 turns. But I see your point.
<snip>
> >
> > >I'll try to post my !Ventrue deck tomorrow. As I said, it's basically a
> > >toolbox/fun deck and therefore crap... but maybe we can tweak it into
> > >something that can survive AND be fun.
> > >
> >
> > Do so! Toolbox slash fun decks are not necessarily crap, sometimes
> > they are the germ of a new killer strategy.
>
> Ok, here it is... as I said, it's probably crap, but it seems to play well
> and is a lot of fun.
>
I have snipped the deck because as you said it was designed for 2 player
games. A few notes though:
You definetely need Bounce, and I would ditch the whole Telepathic Counter
angle more or less for this. This means either dom or AUS, so the aus wennies
should probably go. You could go for straight dom with Royce, Mustafa Rhaman
and Ohanna, if you want to keep it weenie. The 6 cap !Ven Vanessa and Marlene
are really good IMO, as is Dominique.
If you want to keep the deck "toolboxy", it can basically stay as it is -
change the Wennies to dom, include Deflections instead of Tel. Counter, and
maybe add some more blood gain through Tribute To The Master and more Cons.
Boon. Some of your Masters I wouldn't use: the HGs, Antediluvian Awakening
and - of course - Ventrue Investment. I guess you will keep the Storage
Annexes, although I don't think you really need them, your "killer combo" is
essentially Govern+Conditioning+Day Op. (by the way: more Conditioning! You
want to hit hard if you get through).
A bit more hardcore and slightly cheesy would be to go for serious
unblockable bleeds. You could get rid of Laz, maybe bring Bindusara instead
(AUS/DOM/FOR, +1 bleed)? Take Vanessa, Marlene and Dominque instead of
Blaine, Dylan and Aleph, and double on Ingrid Russo. Revelations in
appropriate numbers would be good, first to see that Archon Investigation or
bounce card before you bleed, second to force your prey to discard annoying
stuff. Also cards like Humantias and/or Catacombs will help to get your
minions back from torpor, maybe also Rapid Healing if you Freak Drive after
the bleed. Day Operation is better than Daring The Dawn, you will go to
torpor anyway.
Regards
Skaffen
Chantry Elder Of Munich
"Our hearts discern wild images of Death,
Shadows and shoals that edge eternity."
wes
> you 2 pool in 3 turns. VI costs nothing, so in case of 2 !Ven in play it
nets
> you 2 pool in 2 turns. But I see your point.
And I see yours... I guess it really comes down to preference. But at this
point I am starting to think neither is really THAT great. I consider my
master phase actions too valuable to waste on these cards.
> You definetely need Bounce, and I would ditch the whole Telepathic Counter
> angle more or less for this. This means either dom or AUS, so the aus
wennies
> should probably go. You could go for straight dom with Royce, Mustafa
Rhaman
> and Ohanna, if you want to keep it weenie. The 6 cap !Ven Vanessa and
Marlene
> are really good IMO, as is Dominique.
The problem with adding bounce cards is that this deck is never going to be
used outside of that two-player environment which it was built for. If I
knew there would be more players, I would probably just build from the
ground up. Well, actually it WAS used in a 5 player game on Wednesday... but
that was because we didn't expect the fifth player and needed a deck in a
hurry. Surprisingly it was one of the last two on the table, though still
lost with 0 VP.
> maybe add some more blood gain through Tribute To The Master >and more
Cons. Boon.
Tribute might work as I generally have about 4 minions out, although they do
tend to lose blood to rapidly to risk it. Blood Doll works better in this
one I think. Consanguinous Boon might be good to add. Condemnation might be
better, since I want to get that Nasty Bleed (tm) in as easily as possible.
> Some of your Masters I wouldn't use: the HGs, Antediluvian Awakening
> and - of course - Ventrue Investment. I guess you will keep the Storage
> Annexes, although I don't think you really need them, your "killer combo"
is
> essentially Govern+Conditioning+Day Op. (by the way: more Conditioning!
You
> want to hit hard if you get through).
Hunting Ground becomes necessary because as I mentioned my vamps tend to
lose a lot of blood. Storage Annex is one of my new favourites and does
actually prove useful in this deck for storing those combos for later.
> A bit more hardcore and slightly cheesy would be to go for serious
> unblockable bleeds. You could get rid of Laz, maybe bring Bindusara
instead
I laughed when I read this. Originally I meant this deck to revolve around
Lazvernius, and originally had 4 copies of him in the deck. Now I have two.
Following your suggestion I would have none...heh. I guess it isn't a Laz
deck any more.
> (AUS/DOM/FOR, +1 bleed)? Take Vanessa, Marlene and Dominque instead of
> Blaine, Dylan and Aleph, and double on Ingrid Russo. Revelations in
> appropriate numbers would be good, first to see that Archon Investigation
or
> bounce card before you bleed, second to force your prey to discard
annoying
> stuff. Also cards like Humantias and/or Catacombs will help to get your
> minions back from torpor, maybe also Rapid Healing if you Freak Drive
after
> the bleed. Day Operation is better than Daring The Dawn, you will go to
> torpor anyway.
If my prey had bounce cards in his deck I would have an easy time with him
as he would have NO ONE to bounce to. Archon Investigation is not a card I
am afraid of strangely. If someone includes this in their deck they are
still costing themselves 3 pool and I can afford to lose that minion on the
last turn. Humanitas and Catacombs might be useful, especially if I add some
Sunrise Services as I intended to. I so far have gone all out on one turn
and bled for enough unblockable bleeds to end the game so leaving my
vampires in torpor is not a concern. My vampires are disposable when the
game is at that point.
The other factor with this deck is lack of some cards. I only have a few
Daring the Dawn/Day Operation so I just included what I had.
Thanks for your input Skaffen! I appreciate it.
Cheers,
WES