Anarch Convert question
Dasein
Clan: Caitiff
Group: any
Capacity: 1
Discipline: -
Independent. Anarch. When the convert enters play, you may remove him
from the game to make a non-titled vampire you control anarch and
either gain 1 pool or draw a card from your crypt.
I am very disappointed to see that this vampire is unique.
Anyway, a question: if another player already has an anarch convert in
play, when I influence one into play, can I trigger his ability before
he contests and goes out of play?
James Coupe
s.com>, Dasein <dasei...@hotmail.com> writes:
>Independent. Anarch. When the convert enters play, you may remove him
>from the game to make a non-titled vampire you control anarch and
>either gain 1 pool or draw a card from your crypt.
>
>I am very disappointed to see that this vampire is unique.
Seems like an interesting balancing factor, to me.
>Anyway, a question: if another player already has an anarch convert in
>play, when I influence one into play, can I trigger his ability before
>he contests and goes out of play?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/2c74f5f38601b2dd
suggests that cards that are contested immediately are considered to
have been "played" (so you can DI or Sudden them, for example, if
appropriate) but don't "enter play" at that point.
In that example, it's talking about a vampire who burns for self-
contesting, but also includes Elder Library as a normal to-be-contested
unique card too.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Klai...@gmail.com
> In message <ade05bc5-6273-41b8-917f-037a0de2a...@u12g2000prd.googlegroup
>
> s.com>, Dasein <dasein2...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >Independent. Anarch. When the convert enters play, you may remove him
> >from the game to make a non-titled vampire you control anarch and
> >either gain 1 pool or draw a card from your crypt.
>
> >I am very disappointed to see that this vampire is unique.
>
> Seems like an interesting balancing factor, to me.
>
> >Anyway, a question: if another player already has an anarch convert in
> >play, when I influence one into play, can I trigger his ability before
> >he contests and goes out of play?
>
> suggests that cards that are contested immediately are considered to
> have been "played" (so you can DI or Sudden them, for example, if
> appropriate) but don't "enter play" at that point.
>
> In that example, it's talking about a vampire who burns for self-
> contesting, but also includes Elder Library as a normal to-be-contested
> unique card too.
>
> --
> James Coupe
> PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
> EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
> 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
He would be completely broken if he wouldn't be unique, talk about 1
cap hack decks. :P
James Coupe
s.com>, Klai...@gmail.com writes:
>He would be completely broken if he wouldn't be unique, talk about 1
>cap hack decks. :P
Is your delete key also completely broken? :-(
LSJ
> In message <ade05bc5-6273-41b8...@u12g2000prd.googlegroup
> s.com>, Dasein <dasei...@hotmail.com> writes:
>> Independent. Anarch. When the convert enters play, you may remove him
>>from the game to make a non-titled vampire you control anarch and
>> either gain 1 pool or draw a card from your crypt.
>>
>> I am very disappointed to see that this vampire is unique.
>
> Seems like an interesting balancing factor, to me.
>
>> Anyway, a question: if another player already has an anarch convert in
>> play, when I influence one into play, can I trigger his ability before
>> he contests and goes out of play?
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/2c74f5f38601b2dd
> suggests that cards that are contested immediately are considered to
> have been "played" (so you can DI or Sudden them, for example, if
> appropriate) but don't "enter play" at that point.
>
> In that example, it's talking about a vampire who burns for self-
> contesting, but also includes Elder Library as a normal to-be-contested
> unique card too.
You do the "enters play"/"is played" stuff when the card is played (like
targeting the Rack or Anarch Convert's conversion). Effects of the
to-be-contested card being in play (like Elder Library's +hand size) are not
applied.
So, yes, you can do the Anarch Convert effect (removing the Convert from the
game to make another vampire an anarch) when the card enters play, even if
another Anarch Convert is in play and would contest your incoming copy.
Dasein
> cap hack decks. :P
huh? it is already perfectly possible to make a crypt of 12 (more
actually) different guys, all 1 capacity, which is a perfect crypt for
a computer hack deck how would it be any different if it was 12 anarch
converts?
Only differences I can think of are:
- 12 different caitiff/pander 1 caps have random disciplines (which
computer hack decks don't use at all, but once in a million years
might matter, e.g. if someone plays rooftop shadows or whatever and
your 1 cap pander has celerity, woo!)
- 12 anarch converts all have the anarch trait. We haven't seen any of
the new set but this is unlikely to matter. It's not like they can use
diversion is it? none of them have any disciplines. And woo, hospital
food lets my 1 cap hunt for 2... er... which he can't do. I suppose
you could use Anarch Railroad to give them stealth or something.
- 12 anarch converts could admittedly all get Free Stakes and then
start KRCing like crazy. But again this isn't very different to 12 1
cap caitiff calling Praxis Seizures and KRCs. Or Panders likewise with
Crusades (and they get Legacy, which anarch converts don't).
- 12 anarch converts could put out Anarch Revolts while hacking you,
which would admittedly be very dangerous and annoying. But this sort
of deck is not going to be able to block stuff, which means your first
prey will lose 1 or 2 pool until they go cardless anarch (and assuming
your grandprey has half a brain and doesn't block it). Then you have a
bunch of cards in your deck which are at the very least dead draws, or
at the very worst cause one or more vps to fall elsewhere on the table
(i.e. if someone has a wall predator and can't go cardless anarch).
Anyway the point I was originally getting at is this. If the anarch
convert can't trigger his ability when you put him into play and there
is already another one (i.e. he fades out into contest space before
you can use his ability), then someone at the table (non anarch
player) can bring out an anarch convert and just have him sit there,
and any anarch players at the table are completely screwed. Because
they will probably be mainly using converts to turn their guys anarch,
because it is like 18 trillion times better than any of the other
current ways of turning your guys anarchs. And even if there are some
really cool library ways of going anarch in the set, they still won't
be as good as convert by virtue of it being
- a crypt card and thus not remotely possible to block it, sudden it,
D.I. it, etc.
- a crypt cycler that can be used to quickly get to guys you want
- a 1 cap you are likely to have in your uncontrolled and can use to
govern (etc.) down to.
Anyway I hope we can get a ruling that anarch convert's ability
triggers before he phases out to contesting-land.
Emiliano Imeroni
> You do the "enters play"/"is played" stuff when the card is played (like
> targeting the Rack or Anarch Convert's conversion). Effects of the
> to-be-contested card being in play (like Elder Library's +hand size) are not
> applied.
>
> So, yes, you can do the Anarch Convert effect (removing the Convert from the
> game to make another vampire an anarch) when the card enters play, even if
> another Anarch Convert is in play and would contest your incoming copy.
A somehow related question... If I put more than one Convert in play
during the same influence phase, I guess I can use the effect of all
of them, right?
Example: I have 4 untitled non-anarch vampires in play. In my
influence
phase, I transfer 1 blood each to four Anarch Converts, then I reveal
and remove them from the game one by one to make all of my four
vampires anarch. Does that work?
Thanks,
Emiliano
LSJ
> A somehow related question... If I put more than one Convert in play
> during the same influence phase, I guess I can use the effect of all
> of them, right?
>
> Example: I have 4 untitled non-anarch vampires in play. In my
> influence
> phase, I transfer 1 blood each to four Anarch Converts, then I reveal
> and remove them from the game one by one to make all of my four
> vampires anarch. Does that work?
Yes.
François
I have a related question :
Can I influence an anarch convert, remove him from the game to try to
make himself anarch (which would fizzle) and draw the next card of my
crypt ?
François
LSJ
> Can I influence an anarch convert, remove him from the game to try to
> make himself anarch (which would fizzle) and draw the next card of my
> crypt ?
No. Removed-from-the-game vampires are not controlled.
Drain
> > I have a related question :
>
> Can I influence an anarch convert, remove him from the game to try to
> make himself anarch (which would fizzle) and draw the next card of my
> crypt ?
>
> François
He cannot target himself, since he's not yet in play and thus not a
valid target.
Medication
Emiliano Imeroni
> So, yes, you can do the Anarch Convert effect (removing the Convert from the
> game to make another vampire an anarch) when the card enters play, even if
> another Anarch Convert is in play and would contest your incoming copy.
Sorry, just another clarification... Can you reveal and burn an Anarch
Convert
even if you (as opposed to someone else) already have one in play?
I would say yes, but I was wondering how this interacts with the "you
cannot voluntarily self-contest" rule. Except, like, you don't really
get to the
contest part...
Emiliano
J
> start KRCing like crazy. But again this isn't very different to 12 1
> cap caitiff calling Praxis Seizures and KRCs. Or Panders likewise with
> Crusades (and they get Legacy, which anarch converts don't).
Incorrect.
Capacity requirements for Fee Stake preclude this tactic.
--> J
grail_pbem "at" hotmail.com
LSJ
> On 26 Mag, 13:41, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>
>> So, yes, you can do the Anarch Convert effect (removing the Convert from the
>> game to make another vampire an anarch) when the card enters play, even if
>> another Anarch Convert is in play and would contest your incoming copy.
>
> Sorry, just another clarification... Can you reveal and burn an Anarch
> Convert
> even if you (as opposed to someone else) already have one in play?
Yes. The above didn't restrict to "someone else".
> I would say yes, but I was wondering how this interacts with the "you
> cannot voluntarily self-contest" rule. Except, like, you don't really
> get to the
> contest part...
Bringing out a full vampire at the end of your influence phase is not voluntary.
It's mandatory.
James Coupe
<vte...@white-wolf.com> writes:
>Emiliano Imeroni wrote:
>> Sorry, just another clarification... Can you reveal and burn an
>>Anarch
>> Convert
>> even if you (as opposed to someone else) already have one in play?
>
>Yes. The above didn't restrict to "someone else".
The ruling I cited earlier explicitly said that when you self-contest,
the incoming copy "never enters play" - presumably because it burns
instead. That would appear to restrict it.
If it did enter play, wouldn't you have to (temporarily) contest the in-
play copy and then burn the incoming copy?
Peter D Bakija
<ade05bc5-6273-41b8...@u12g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
Dasein <dasei...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Anarch Convert [TR:V]
> Clan: Caitiff
> Group: any
> Capacity: 1
> Discipline: -
> Independent. Anarch. When the convert enters play, you may remove him
> from the game to make a non-titled vampire you control anarch and
> either gain 1 pool or draw a card from your crypt.
>
> I am very disappointed to see that this vampire is unique.
It seems likely that having access to any sort of non unique, low
capacity minion with no balancing disadvantage is probably a bad idea.
Tupdog burns after 1 turn, and can't take D actions without !Tremere
pals. The Hermanas burn blood (the little ones require a whole deck
infrastructure just so they don't have to hunt on the first turn; the
big ones are 4 caps, so unlikely to see tons of them in play). The Aabbt
Kindred can't take D actions without a 10 cap in play. Being able to
play a whole crypt of non disadvantaged 1 caps, who are *also* Anarchs
(giving you instant access to worthwhile Anarch masters and
disciplinleess cards)? Probably would open up a whole lot of nightmarish
scenarios.
Yeah, you can already play a crypt of (likely? I haven't counted
recently, but seems likely using G1/2 Caitif and Pander) 12 distinct 1
caps. But many of them have significant disadvantages. And they don't
give you access to Anarch cards that were specifically designed to be
balanced out by the barrier to use.
Peter D Bakija
pd...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6/vtes.html
"It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does?"
-Gaff
LSJ
> In message <c2z_j.6152$nW2....@nlpi064.nbdc.sbc.com>, LSJ
> <vte...@white-wolf.com> writes:
>> Emiliano Imeroni wrote:
>>> Sorry, just another clarification... Can you reveal and burn an
>>> Anarch
>>> Convert
>>> even if you (as opposed to someone else) already have one in play?
>> Yes. The above didn't restrict to "someone else".
>
> The ruling I cited earlier explicitly said that when you self-contest,
> the incoming copy "never enters play" - presumably because it burns
> instead. That would appear to restrict it.
>
> If it did enter play, wouldn't you have to (temporarily) contest the in-
> play copy and then burn the incoming copy?
You get to use the Anarch Convert's "play" effect before it becomes contested /
burns instead of self-contesting.
bwross
> > He would be completely broken if he wouldn't be unique, talk about 1
> > cap hack decks. :P
>
> huh? it is already perfectly possible to make a crypt of 12 (more
> actually) different guys, all 1 capacity, which is a perfect crypt for
> a computer hack deck how would it be any different if it was 12 anarch
> converts?
Currently you can make a crypt of 14 unique 1-caps, some with
disadvantages that will matter in a hack deck. If Anarch Convert was
non-unique, you'd be able to build a deck of 100 usable 1-caps with no
disadvantages and Anarch status. Sure, you're not going to get 100
vampires out, but I can see getting out more than 14 and using the
rest to fuel Inconnu Tutelage. That's a considerable difference, and
I'm glad the game isn't going there.
Brent
Dragos
start KRCing like crazy.
Not that easily, please read a Fee Stake card:
"Requires a ready anarch with capacity above 4."
Best,
Dan
nac.s...@gmail.com
without a valid target to become anarch(let's say all my vampires are
titled)?
What would happen?
A)I just can't
B)I lose the first effect and then either gain 1 pool or get a card
from the crypt
LSJ
You can't.
mat...@gmail.com
not imply being unique. He might as well be named Game Mechanic.
LSJ
> What kind of name is Anarch Convert for a vampire? It certainly does
> not imply being unique.
Uniqueness comes from a desire to achieve balance.
> He might as well be named Game Mechanic.
How would that imply unique?
mat...@gmail.com
vampire? He might as well be named Game Mechanic.
Thrall of Arika
> Does anyone think that Anarch Convert is a bad name for a unique
> vampire? He might as well be named Game Mechanic.
I don't get the point of posting this twice. Are you pushing for the
Convert to be non-unique? I think the name is fine, since their main
use is to _convert_ your other vampires into _anarchs_.
Besides, you'll hurt Mr. Convert's feelings, making fun of his name.
Chris, Thrall of Arika.
Blooded Sand
wrote:
Yeah, and anyway, he is correctly called "The Anarch Convert". As in
the The chuck norris. okay? ;)
mat...@gmail.com
wrote:
> On Jul 8, 11:30 am, matt...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Does anyone think that Anarch Convert is a bad name for a unique
> > vampire? He might as well be named Game Mechanic.
>
> I don't get the point of posting this twice. Are you pushing for the
> Convert to be non-unique? I think the name is fine, since their main
> use is to _convert_ your other vampires into _anarchs_.
My computer did not see the first post. So, I posted it again. After
the second post, I realized that no posts from 7/8 were being seen by
my computer.
> Besides, you'll hurt Mr. Convert's feelings, making fun of his name.
Mr. and Mrs. Convert had a strange sense of humor.
Matt
XZealot
wrote:
> On Jul 8, 11:30 am, matt...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Does anyone think that Anarch Convert is a bad name for a unique
> > vampire? He might as well be named Game Mechanic.
Exactly, His new name should be "Anatomically Correct Anarch
Convert". :)
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp