Art by Gary Chatterton - thoughts?
Vincent
Deflection, Depravity or Bum's Rush.
I suppose WW was in a rush and missing new art for those cards. But
please, photos for artwork? Oh, I guess that Photoshop blur effect
took at least 1 minute.
Even Brian Miskley's Mind of the Killer or the generic work of
Imaginary Friends Studio required more sweat and talent.
Next time, ask me, I'll send a hand-made artwork for free.
I'm really disappointed.
What others think about it?
Peter D Bakija
It is reasonable for what it is, which is probably relatively quickly
done, inexpensive art for cards that needed new art to be reprinted in
a set that has a lot of otherwise new cards with new art. As
previously noted, WW can't (for whatever reason) use old art on old
cards anymore (the ones from the WotC days, presumably). So all the
cards that are old reprints (Govern, Deflection, Wake, Dreams,
whatever) *needed* new art to be put into play again. As a lot of
these cards have Gary Chatterton's photoshop illustrations, I'd assume
that they were relatively inexpensive and done quickly to fill up
needed art for reprints without busting the art budget.
In terms of the actual art, I like Deflection and Bonding, think
Dreams is totally fine, and am kind of out on the new Bum's Rush. But
it is *still* better than the Ambush art (I currently use Ambush rules
cards in lieu of actual Ambush...)
-Peter
Orange Devil
It's the shittiest art ever seen in VTES, with Depravity taking the
cake. But given that it's only on the cards in the starters (not a
single new card got his art AFAIK) and that most those cards really
needed reprints (and had that whole needing new art to be allowed to
be reprinted situation), it was probably done to save costs on art.
When it comes down to it, I rather see those cards reprinted then not,
but I agree, the art sucks and it'll suck seeing that art for years to
come. It's especially bad if you compare it to the art on the new
Govern or the Sports Bike, those are frikking awesome.
brandonsantacruz
>
> What others think about it?
Haven't seen the cards yet. Care to post them?
Brandon
Kevin M.
> Vincent <v.rip...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm really disappointed. What others think about it?
>
> It's the shittiest art ever seen in VTES,
Worse than a picture of the artist's thumb?
(Ambrosio Luis Moncada)
Worse than an arrow pointing at a skull?
(Jyhad/VTES Fake Out)
Worse than a bunch of red paint put randomly on a canvas?
(Cauldron of Blood)
Worse than ANYTHING from Harold Arthur McNeill?
I'd rather see Gary Chatterton do the rest of the cards forever
than see a single piece of McNeill art ever again. Those were
truly bad times in VTES art.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
Please buy my cards! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
Please attend my qualifier! http://members.cox.net/vtesinlv/
henrik
> Worse than ANYTHING from Harold Arthur McNeill?
Every single picture is worse than anything from Harold Arthur McNeill.
alex fnurp
> Worse than an arrow pointing at a skull?
> (Jyhad/VTES Fake Out)
Ey, that is a classic card, dont mess with the classics! ;)
> Worse than ANYTHING from Harold Arthur McNeill?
I happen to like the feeling in his picture. You know which artist I
cant stand? Becky cloonan or whatever her name is, that manga-artist
that WW hired to do spiritus cards and some more cards. I mean they
look allright, but not for this game >_<
Peter D Bakija
> It's the shittiest art ever seen in VTES, with Depravity taking the
> cake.
Man, you guys are harsh. Again, given *why* the art is why it is
(presumably due to being fast and cheap for cards that needed art to
be reprinted, in a set that was already very high in the art budget
arena), it seems completely reasonable to have a few photoshop
quickies in there.
Looking at the ones in question:
-Antedeluvian Awakening: Not inspiring, but totally reasonable. Kind
of forgettable.
-Bum's Rush: I'm not a big fan. But isn't going to make me shoot
anyone.
-Depravity: I like the design and the colors. That the guy is
crosseyed is unfortunate.
-Deflection: I actually really like this picture. I mean, if you look
at it really closely, yeah the Neo guy looks a bit ridiculous. But the
color and design is very striking. I'm pro.
-Corporate Hunting Ground: Much like Antedeluvian, totally
forgettable. Not great. Not bad. Completely whatever.
-Computer Hacking: Again, totally forgettable, but not offensive.
-Dreams of the Sphinx: I actually like this one. Like the lighting.
-Bonding: I like this one too. Good design and color.
So he did 8 cards. I'm going to continue going under the assumption
that this work was done relatively quickly and cheaply (i.e. maybe
some other folks didn't meet deadline, or they still had these slots
open and needed them filled quickly and with a minimum of budget).
Given that (likely) assumption, totally reasonable. Yes. They are
photos that were run through a few filters (although certainly
Deflection took a lot more design decision making than that) and had
their color balance tweaked. And given that, I think they are totally
reasonable for that.
> When it comes down to it, I rather see those cards reprinted then not,
> but I agree, the art sucks and it'll suck seeing that art for years to
> come. It's especially bad if you compare it to the art on the new
> Govern or the Sports Bike, those are frikking awesome.
Well, ya know, if you can get 4x Bum's Rush/Deflection/Hacking/
Depravity for the time and price of 1x Govern, things make more sense.
In terms of the other new art, I'm very pro the new Govern, and I love
that the new Wake stars Sheldon, Lord of the Clog Dance (hurrah for
Ron Spencer and continuity!)
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> Worse than a picture of the artist's thumb?
> (Ambrosio Luis Moncada)
Yeah, that is a standout of bad.
> Worse than an arrow pointing at a skull?
> (Jyhad/VTES Fake Out)
Ya know, not good, but I *vastly* prefer it to the new (? From Sabbat
I think) Fake Out picture. Which I loathe.
> Worse than a bunch of red paint put randomly on a canvas?
> (Cauldron of Blood)
Oh, ya know, it looks like a vascular explosion. I'm ok with it.
> Worse than ANYTHING from Harold Arthur McNeill?
I'm gonna side with the "Harold Arthur McNeill is awesome!"
contingent. But then, I also love Christopher Shy. And Drew Tucker.
-Peter
librarian
Wait, what's the name of the current art director at WW/CCP?
I bet it's something along the lines of Gary Chatterton...
best -
chris
Meej
> I suppose WW was in a rush and missing new art for those cards. But
> please, photos for artwork? Oh, I guess that Photoshop blur effect
> took at least 1 minute.
For the record, when I googled his name to try to find these pics to
see what was so bad about them that it was causing this reaction, his
website and other sites that market his work bill it as
"photorealistic illustration." Now, that's not to say for sure that
they're *not* photos, or that there isn't a photo in there, but the
guy's whole artistic goal seems to be to create illustrations that are
so lifelike (and, presumably, digital) that they're essentially
photographs of things that didn't happen.
- D.J.
Juggernaut1981
> contingent. But then, I also love Christopher Shy. And Drew Tucker.
>
> -Peter
*holds up fingers in a cross pattern and hisses at you like a cat*
Sorry... Mr Potatohead Moncada and the "Christopher Shy
Interchangables" is something I'd hope would be reserved for Blood
Brothers. I'm all for 9,000 Blood Brothers of barely varying
features... but seriously... Christopher Shy can stop now... more
blurry indistinct portraits which look like he's whacked it into
PhotoShop for 20min, deleted the background and hit the Blur button
(even if they are done by hand) isn't that inspiring. I haven't seen
the new cards, I'll reserve judgement on those...
Mr Whacky Geometry MacNeill... what to say about them... I think
they'd make more sense if I was on the same dietary supplements he was
taking... Are these cookies giving me the munchies?
*Can't remember a single distinctive Drew Tucker piece that can come
to mind* Suppose he must be okay, I don't have a sense of revulsion at
the mention of his artwork...
Kevin M.
> Mr Whacky Geometry MacNeill... what to say about them... I think
> they'd make more sense if I was on the same dietary supplements he was
> taking... Are these cookies giving me the munchies?
>
> *Can't remember a single distinctive Drew Tucker piece that can come
> to mind* Suppose he must be okay, I don't have a sense of revulsion at
> the mention of his artwork...
Drew Tucker art is watercolor art, which is usually quite good.
Harold Arthur McNeill art is watercolor art, which is highly surrealistic
(Chris, do I have the right word, here?), has no connection to the card
and/or its text, and gives you a headache just focusing your eyes.
Here are some gems:
Command
Corruption's Purge
Direct Intervention (just another reason to hate this card)
Enchant Kindred
Eyes of the Night
Faceless Night
Far Fatuus
Legacy of Caine
Madness of the Bard
Marked Path
Melange
Memory's Fading Glimpse
I just stopped there. The pain was too much. Seriously, all this
art looks like someone painted something, then got drunk or stoned,
dipped a brush into paint thinner and smeared it all over the previously
beautiful artwork. Consecration Rites and Melange, fr.ex.
_angst_
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> > Mr Whacky Geometry MacNeill... what to say about them... I think
> > they'd make more sense if I was on the same dietary supplements he was
> > taking... Are these cookies giving me the munchies?
>
> > *Can't remember a single distinctive Drew Tucker piece that can come
> > to mind* Suppose he must be okay, I don't have a sense of revulsion at
> > the mention of his artwork...
>
> Drew Tucker art is watercolor art, which is usually quite good.
>
Agreed...
> Harold Arthur McNeill art is watercolor art, which is highly surrealistic
> (Chris, do I have the right word, here?), has no connection to the card
> and/or its text, and gives you a headache just focusing your eyes.
>
> Here are some gems:
> Command
> Corruption's Purge
> Direct Intervention (just another reason to hate this card)
> Enchant Kindred
> Eyes of the Night
> Faceless Night
> Far Fatuus
> Legacy of Caine
> Madness of the Bard
> Marked Path
> Melange
> Memory's Fading Glimpse
>
I <3 his art. Cards like Faceless and DI are pure mint.
> I just stopped there. The pain was too much. Seriously, all this
> art looks like someone painted something, then got drunk or stoned,
> dipped a brush into paint thinner and smeared it all over the previously
> beautiful artwork. Consecration Rites and Melange, fr.ex.
>
And this is a bad thing?
//Alex
PS. It's a bit scary to see Peter and Henrik agree on something :)
librarian
Delilah Easton.
>
> I <3 his art. Cards like Faceless and DI are pure mint.
I used to have some 20 Jyhad Faceless Nights signed by him.
>
>> I just stopped there. The pain was too much. Seriously, all this
>> art looks like someone painted something, then got drunk or stoned,
>> dipped a brush into paint thinner and smeared it all over the previously
>> beautiful artwork. Consecration Rites and Melange, fr.ex.
>>
>
> And this is a bad thing?
>
> //Alex
>
> PS. It's a bit scary to see Peter and Henrik agree on something :)
They say art can promote peace.
best -
chris
Juggernaut1981
>
> And this is a bad thing?
>
> //Alex
>
> PS. It's a bit scary to see Peter and Henrik agree on something :)
Alex,
I'm a big fan on surrealism and impressionism. Don't mind the odd
dabbling in abstracts, but I would be more than happy to see the day
when the MacNeill cards have replacement art. Also be glad when
Christopher Shy only gets comissioned for Blood Bros...
KJM> I think you're looking for the term "Abstracted". For surrealism
think Picasso & Dali (IRC)...
jakob
At least now we know that WW doesn't review the art they receive
before printing it...
cheers,
-jakob
Maegnar
Care to post the pictures for those unlucky ones, that didn't get a
hold on new cards yet?
Lönkka
Her style is not even remotely close to manga!
I find that her style reminds me very much of the talented Paul Pope.
Probably because their way of drawing humans is kinda similar.
I heartily recommed her first graphic novel, Beast (ISBN 1607061473)
that just came from Image.
Unfortunately the color work in her pieces doesn't work that well.
Perhaps the pics come a bit too scetchy? Or is it the size of the pics
in the cards? Maybe darker blacks in outlines would've also helped?
(and I wouldn't consider Becky a manga artist either, even if she hass
done an album for Tokyopop. Also her art for Rayzeel's Song is
superb!)
-On Photoshopping card pics.
I tend to have no problems with this. For example the Sabbat War
photoshops worked quite well.
Problem with some of the new ones is that it is easier to photoshop a
good looking (bust) portait for a Vamp (like in Sabbat War) than a
card depecting a scene with multiple people. Often the spatial
relation of people comes out looking bizarre in a wrong way.
Closeups like new Bonding work well -also notice that Bonding has a
strong background cover. This helps it to stand out define what is
going on in the rest of the picture.
In the new Deflection the only thing that works for me is the red
sprayish thingy makes the picture stand out even if the figures in the
picture were awkward.
Harold Arthur McNeill must be my ABSOLUTE favourite artist in the game
-can we have more please!?
The distorted feeling he ewokes in his pictures portrays the strange
world of Kindred very elegantly and stylishly.
Now I'll go and watch the stunning Das Cabinet des Dr. Caligari once
again ;)
I also like Drew Tucker.
But the biggest thing is that VARIETY is good!
Gazillion extremely similar Christopher Shy pics that look so very
much alike is not.
By the by, I also think that Samuel Araya from Heirs is a penname of
Mr Shy... ;)
Strong colors that stand out is something I like. Such cards tend to
be easy to recognize even from distance and/or in dim lighting.
Extremely good example of such style is Durwin Talon.
But you don't necessarily need to use vibrant colors everywhere. Just
use these as the background color -original Majesty anyone?
Limited pallete also works -check William O'Connor's work.
He also often uses contrasting color in some piece of detail that is
crucial to the picture.
Some of the illos I liked in the new set:
Barrens (Ken Spencer) -Nice color range.
Blood Tempering (Heather Kreiter) One of her best pieces and she's
always good.
Fractura (Chad Ward) A total winner -the best in the set. Amazing mood
& use of colors.
Hillanvale -Great lighting brings out character
Lily Prelude (Leif Jones) Another nice one from Jones -great colors.
Striga (Justin Norman) Baby's got back, huh?
-Janne/Lönkka
Raziel
Better shitty art than no reprint at all.
I fully support WW politics in the regard, and many people here also
wanted *ANY* art. I don't know why are you disappointed.
I'm happy.
Haze
Even more baffling are those suggesting that White Wolf use their
shitty stick figures, ~*for free*~
They don't like the art, so they'd prefer it if the art were even
worse? Heh.
Peter D Bakija
> PS. It's a bit scary to see Peter and Henrik agree on something :)- Hide quoted text -
Heh. I think we actually agree on most things, really :-)
I'd never suggest that, like, Kevin should like Harold McNeil. But I
think he is good. Apparently a lot of other people do too. Ya know--
aesthetics are never cut and dry. And heck, I prefer to use the Ambush
rules card to Ambush...
-Peter
librarian
> Marian Churchill
Her name is Marian Churchland (found as I rushed to find out
more about the comic you are recommending...)
best -
chris
librarian
> Marian Churchill (not Becky Cloonan) is NOT a manga artist.
> Her style is not even remotely close to manga!
> I find that her style reminds me very much of the talented Paul Pope.
> Probably because their way of drawing humans is kinda similar.
> I heartily recommed her first graphic novel, Beast (ISBN 1607061473)
> that just came from Image.
>
Frak. I just found this interview with her:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=22450
There are samples of pages from Beast - it's gorgeousity.
Agree, very Paul Pope-like in the way she draws humans,
although backgrounds are much more realistic.
Heading down to the comic shop today to get my weekly fix,
will see if they have Beast.
best -
chris
Orange Devil
> On Feb 3, 6:17 pm, Orange Devil <orangede...@home.nl> wrote:
>
> > It's the shittiest art ever seen in VTES, with Depravity taking the
> > cake.
>
> Man, you guys are harsh. Again, given *why* the art is why it is
> (presumably due to being fast and cheap for cards that needed art to
> be reprinted, in a set that was already very high in the art budget
> arena), it seems completely reasonable to have a few photoshop
> quickies in there.
I did specifically point that out, stating I'd rather have them
reprinted with this art then not reprinted at all. That being said,
the art still stinks.
Lönkka
Damnation!
Sorry about that man -I just wrote and wrote it from memory without
checking it up :(
On Feb 4, 5:23 pm, librarian <aucti...@superfuncards.com> wrote:
>
> There are samples of pages from Beast - it's gorgeousity.
> Agree, very Paul Pope-like in the way she draws humans,
> although backgrounds are much more realistic.
Indeed so.
Pope is totally amazing!
Also, the main strength of Beast comes from the excellent story, so it
is not just nicely illustrated!
Remember to check Marian's livejournal page:
http://incertus.livejournal.com/
I also heartily recommed her boyfirend's (Brandon Graham) and his
excellent King City.
The first third was originally released by Tokyopop but it is now
being released as a oversized monthly by Image.
http://royalboiler.livejournal.com/
Stopping the OT right now.
Janne/Lönkka
Raziel
I like the art, but deflection needed a reprint *that* bad.
Ashur
> What others think about it?
I think this: It is sad that White Wolf don´t care more of the artwork
than what they seem to do. I almost puked when I saw the new Bum´s
Rush. It isn´t even artwork. It looks like some dudes from WW just
took a "funny" photo outside the office.
Sutekh.23
Who said WW don't care about the artwork? I'm sure LSJ / WW would have
loved to have some great peice of art on a reprint, but the finacial
reality is that they may not be able to afford great artwork for
reprinted cards, or, the addition of reprints was late due to Ben
designing the (far superior) decks and WW needed *something* to fill
the gaps? Would you have prefered for the set to be delayed longer due
to "unforseen printing issues" to get a nice bum's rush (which, lets
be honest, every long time player has enough of) or would you want the
set to be released "as is"? We all want good things for Vtes, but
seriously, when it comes to art (which can cost a fortune), we have to
be reasonable.
Cheers
Sutekh_23
Huruem
The reality is, there are plenty of artists down here, even within the
players, that would make some artwork for free so that they'd never
ever see these pieces of shit ever again.
And yes, I'm being very reasonnable here.
Cheers,
Arthur
Peter D Bakija
> The reality is, there are plenty of artists down here, even within the
> players, that would make some artwork for free so that they'd never
> ever see these pieces of shit ever again.
And yet all those artists who are willing to work for free are not in
the existing system, and don't necessarily work to specification and
on a reasonable time line. If you have a guy who will do what you need
him to in the time you need him to, and for the budget alloted, he
gets the work.
> And yes, I'm being very reasonnable here.
Well, no, not really. I mean, I'm not saying you need to like the art.
But it is 8 pieces on mostly much needed reprints. Most of which are
completely innocuous. A few of which are, at least for my money, good.
Have some perspective.
-Peter
Huruem
I do have some perspective, I do know how the CCG system works, and
I'm well aware of how White wolf seems to work. The fact of the matter
is, these cards have been printed, the reception seems to be rather
bad so far, and I really want to show :
1 my disappointment
2 that as a client, I do feel robbed.
3 that I had a pretty high opinion of the artwork of VTES in general,
which makes me all the more disappointed.
The other fact which is all the more enraging, is that in the same
range of re-illustration, Ron Spencer was asked to do some other
artwork (wake,...) which is just brilliant. The lesson learned is
that
1 White wolf does know how to find good artists when they want to.
2 WW can afford good artists most of the times.
For the first time in my life, I'm seriously considering dumping cards
just because of their artwork. Cards that would have been pretty
useful. What does it say about it? And yes I've been playing CCG for
more than 10 years, I actually worked in a CCG compagny before (yeti
entertainment if that's really necessary.) and I worked for a CCG
magazine.
Arthur
floppyzedolfin
What does that have to do with the artwork? Actually, if it is your
argument, it's even worse.
I mean, how long as it been since players have asked for those
reprints? Don't you think that, if they were some day to be reprint by
WW/CCP, they wouldn't know soon enough to give the task way before the
cards were printed?
Plus, those cards are staple cards. One wouldn't just play one per
deck. The minimum (but the artist might not have considered that)
would be to offer something nice to look at.
> Most of which are
> completely innocuous. A few of which are, at least for my money, good.
I consider Computer Hacking and Antediluvian Awakening less serious
than the remaining 6.
Is V:tES a game where vampires are blue and skinny, the moon is always
full ?
I remember what's been said about Frank "Smurf" Litzpar...
@Huruem: I'm considering painting over these artworks.
Peter D Bakija
> The other fact which is all the more enraging, is that in the same
> range of re-illustration, Ron Spencer was asked to do some other
> artwork (wake,...) which is just brilliant. The lesson learned is
> that
> 1 White wolf does know how to find good artists when they want to.
> 2 WW can afford good artists most of the times.
And maybe they blew the budget getting Ron Spencer back. Or maybe they
didn't have enough time to get someone to paint illustrations for
those particular reprints for whatever reason.
There are likely very specific reasons as to why those particular
cards were done the way that they were (see: Kestrelle Hayes). You
(we?) can easily deal with a few quickie photoshop illustrations
without flying off the handle.
-Peter
floppyzedolfin
> You
> (we?) can easily deal with a few quickie photoshop illustrations
> without flying off the handle.
>
> -Peter
Of course we can - do we have the choice?
But do you want to see that sort of artwork in next prints?
Peter D Bakija
> What does that have to do with the artwork?
That:
A) The cards needed new artwork to be reprinted, in a set that was
already very heavy into the art budget.
B) It is certainly possible that the decision of which cards to
reprint in the starters was made far later than the decision on which
new cards to print. Meaning that there was likely a lot more time to
get art for new cards than for reprints.
> Actually, if it is your
> argument, it's even worse.
> I mean, how long as it been since players have asked for those
> reprints? Don't you think that, if they were some day to be reprint by
> WW/CCP, they wouldn't know soon enough to give the task way before the
> cards were printed?
Maybe, maybe not. VTES is, clearly, a minor sideline for the company.
It has, like, 1 full time employee devoted to it (if even that).
Things like this happen. And as much as a couple people are
bellyaching about this guys art, really, it just isn't that horrible.
It isn't the best stuff ever printed, no, but it is what it is and is
unlikely to end the game.
> Plus, those cards are staple cards. One wouldn't just play one per
> deck. The minimum (but the artist might not have considered that)
> would be to offer something nice to look at.
You don't like them. Lots of people don't like lots of things. That
doesn't mean that they are objectively horrible. Just that you don't
like them. I'm not wild about most of them myself. But I can deal. I'd
sooner use new Deflection or Bonding in a deck than Sabbat Flash or
Ambush. And yet still, I don't think it is necessary to freak out
'cause I think the art on Sabbat Flash blows.
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> Of course we can - do we have the choice?
We certainly have the choice to not fly off the handle and call for
the (inappropriate comedy) assassination of some guy just 'cause we
don't like his work. And we have the choice to have a measured and
reasonable response to something we don't like. I mean, yeah, I
realize this is the internet and all, and I have been here before, but
really.
> But do you want to see that sort of artwork in next prints?
If it gets White Wolf out of a jam and gets good cards in my hand?
Sure. The *vast* majority of artwork in VTES is of consistently high
quality, such that I think it behooves us all to cut them a little
slack when some sub-optimal work gets in there for whatever reason.
And for my money, these illustrations are at the worst, forgettable,
and at the best, pretty good. And certainly not worth freaking out
over.
-Peter
Huruem
All right, let's assume that they actually needed some artwork
urgently and that they didn't have anyone available other than him.
(which is pure speculation anyway) I still don't want to see it
getting reprinted as much as the first one, editions after editions,
knowing that a lot of people do hate it. It'd be rather interesting to
know how much people do actually find it as terrible as I do, and how
much people do think it should be kept in the following expansions.
@Floppy I do also consider that, or just fill the image panel in black
with a marker pen even though that makes a lot of cards to re-draw.
wargrim
If I were WW employee (designer - whoever) I would be really ashamed
of the product I had given to the market.
I'd rather put instuctions (like on NoR cards) than such crappy
ilustations (pictures,photos).
Kevin M.
FWIW, I don't think it's fair to say Arthur is 'flying of the handle'.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
Please buy my cards! http://shop.ebay.com/kjmergen/m.html
Please attend my qualifier! http://members.cox.net/vtesinlv/
Ivan .
> At first it stank my eyes. Now, they bleed each time I look at a new
> Deflection, Depravity or Bum's Rush.
> I suppose WW was in a rush and missing new art for those cards. But
> please, photos for artwork? Oh, I guess that Photoshop blur effect
> took at least 1 minute.
> Even Brian Miskley's Mind of the Killer or the generic work of
> Imaginary Friends Studio required more sweat and talent.
> Next time, ask me, I'll send a hand-made artwork for free.
>
> I'm really disappointed.
>
Guess what: Gary's artwork for BONDING isn't his. I personally know a
guy
who is a stock photographer here whose photo it is. And it isn't even
tinzy winzy different that his version. It would be ok if he altered
in some way deriving work from it, but Gary just pasted it as his own.
Ivan .
it's not so bad. even deflection. it's occasionally childish,
occasionally great (Striga, Enchanced Senses), but I like it. It's
great that they reprinted these cards. If we bitch about the artwork
too much, they won't reprint cards in the future. And that would be
shame.
Peter D Bakija
> FWIW, I don't think it's fair to say Arthur is 'flying of the handle'.
We can certainly quibble about what "flying off the handle" means, but
for my money:
-Starting a thread inquiring (in a clearly comedic, but still
inappropriate) what kind of physical punishment a guy deserves for
having his work published.
-Considering dumping all these cards (whatever that means).
and
-Feeling robbed as a customer, 'cause a few cards in the set have art
he doesn't like.
all add up to "flying off the handle" for me.
-Peter
_angst_
> On Feb 6, 1:45 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:
>
> > FWIW, I don't think it's fair to say Arthur is 'flying of the handle'.
>
> We can certainly quibble about what "flying off the handle" means, but
> for my money:
>
> -Starting a thread inquiring (in a clearly comedic, but still
> inappropriate) what kind of physical punishment a guy deserves for
> having his work published.
>
> -Considering dumping all these cards (whatever that means).
>
Many people I play with care alot about the design, edition aand/or
artwork of the cards they play with. I've been dumping VtES edition
cards for ages now and I'm sure to get rid of any copies of these
cards since they're just plain terrible. I don't see how not being
willing to play with cards that are eyesores is "flying of the
handle".
> and
>
> -Feeling robbed as a customer, 'cause a few cards in the set have art
> he doesn't like.
>
Sure, some people might like these. That doesn't mean they're not
hastily made low quality photos. I wouldn't feel robbed because the
art is ugly. I would feel robbed because the art is of low quality.
Just like I feeled robbed for the low quality of 3rd edition cards.
> all add up to "flying off the handle" for me.
>
I've heard personal insults aren't very constructive in a discussion
anyway...
Peter D Bakija
> Sure, some people might like these. That doesn't mean they're not
> hastily made low quality photos. I wouldn't feel robbed because the
> art is ugly. I would feel robbed because the art is of low quality.
> Just like I feeled robbed for the low quality of 3rd edition cards.
Again, this is a question of scale. There are a couple illustrations
in a huge set of cards that could be pointed to as "kinda crappy".
That a few people are getting this bent out of shape about it is
completely preposterous.
> I've heard personal insults aren't very constructive in a discussion
> anyway...
I don't know what world you are living in, but in the world I am
living in "flying off the handle" /= "personal insult".
-Peter
_angst_
>
> I don't know what world you are living in, but in the world I am
> living in "flying off the handle" /= "personal insult".
>
A non-englishspeaking world.
Sorry, confused the phrase with another phrase...
Peter D Bakija
> A non-englishspeaking world.
> Sorry, confused the phrase with another phrase...
Fair enough.
Listen. I'm not saying anyone should like things they don't like. And
I'm not saying that these illustrations are the best illustrations
ever or anything. But again, it is a couple illustrations in a set of,
what, 200+ new illustrations? The vast majority of which are
excellent? And so we got a small number of possibly dubious, possibly
not fantastic illustrations? This is what people choose to focus on?
-Peter
Huruem
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL !!! That is rich !
Source?
_angst_
Wouldn't be surpriced if it's true though. All of his "art" pretty
much looks like stuff found through google image search.
Juggernaut1981
Art Director: Right now we've organised all of these cards artwork...
all shiney, I'm happy. So Accounts, how much is left?
Accounts: Not Much (tm).
Art Director: How much is "not much"?
Accounts: Buy something more valuable than paperclips and we're
calling it a budget blow-out...
Art Director: Oh. Hmmm. 8 cards, not much cash... time for a quick &
dirty bulk lot on the cheap...
Accounts: That would certainly be my advice...
[begin printing cards here]
Kevin M.
> Listen. I'm not saying anyone should like things they don't like.
> And I'm not saying that these illustrations are the best
> illustrations ever or anything. But again, it is a couple
> illustrations in a set of, what, 200+ new illustrations? The vast
> majority of which are excellent? And so we got a small number
> of possibly dubious, possibly not fantastic illustrations? This
> is what people choose to focus on?
You can go on and on and try to describe to people about how they
shouldn't be taking this as seriously as they are, but is it really
worth as much time as you've invested in it? I mean, if taste
in most art is subjective, of what value is it to you in continuing
responding to The Chat haters?
Unless you want to start an online, newsgroup class and actually try
to educate The Chat haters, you are simply adding fuel to the fire,
especially given the recent history of snipers on this newsgroup.
I'm also thinking that The Chat hate is a GOOD thing, since no one
is complaining about anything else regarding the set -- like Patagia
being reprinted in a rare slot. ;) bwahaha
librarian
> Peter D Bakija wrote:
>> Listen. I'm not saying anyone should like things they don't like.
>> And I'm not saying that these illustrations are the best
>> illustrations ever or anything. But again, it is a couple
>> illustrations in a set of, what, 200+ new illustrations? The vast
>> majority of which are excellent? And so we got a small number
>> of possibly dubious, possibly not fantastic illustrations? This
>> is what people choose to focus on?
>
> You can go on and on and try to describe to people about how they
> shouldn't be taking this as seriously as they are, but is it really
> worth as much time as you've invested in it? I mean, if taste
> in most art is subjective, of what value is it to you in continuing
> responding to The Chat haters?
>
> Unless you want to start an online, newsgroup class and actually try
> to educate The Chat haters, you are simply adding fuel to the fire,
> especially given the recent history of snipers on this newsgroup.
>
> I'm also thinking that The Chat hate is a GOOD thing, since no one
> is complaining about anything else regarding the set -- like Patagia
> being reprinted in a rare slot. ;) bwahaha
>
Yeah, and no Parity Shift (not sure where it would fit
thematically, but still...).
best -
chris
Kevin M.
KoT was the place for Parity Shift to be reprinted. HTTB isn't.
Teeka
> I suspect that we've just hit this situation...
>
> Art Director: Right now we've organised all of these cards artwork...
> all shiney, I'm happy. So Accounts, how much is left?
> Accounts: Not Much (tm).
> Art Director: How much is "not much"?
> Accounts: Buy something more valuable than paperclips and we're
> calling it a budget blow-out...
> Art Director: Oh. Hmmm. 8 cards, not much cash... time for a quick &
> dirty bulk lot on the cheap...
At this point, LSJ/Oscar/whoever could've put up an ad here / on the
WW forum saying "new art needed for these 8 staples. Sorry no payment,
just the satisfaction of having your work on an offical card. Needed
ASAP. Only serious entries, please. E-mail us for specifications
at..."
I'm sure someone here or their friend would've gotten some way better
stuff in, on time, for free. But WW never asked.
Ivan .
Huruem је написао:
here is the image: http://www.istockphoto.com/stock-photo-7980476-young-beautiful-couple-in-love-plays.php
is it any diferent? nope, I don't think so. Certainly not enough to
change attribution.
suoli
> What does that have to do with the artwork? Actually, if it is your
> argument, it's even worse.
> I mean, how long as it been since players have asked for those
> reprints? Don't you think that, if they were some day to be reprint by
> WW/CCP, they wouldn't know soon enough to give the task way before the
> cards were printed?
It's entirely possible that WW did commission the art ahead of time
but the artist just didn't make the deadline for whatever reason.
Could be the cause of the delayed release, too. Wasn't Kestrelle Hayes
printed in a delayed set as well?
Huruem
>
> is it any diferent? nope, I don't think so. Certainly not enough to
> change attribution.
LLLLOOOOOOOOOLLLLL
Seriously, that is fucked up.
Wilsoros
I bought cards yesterday, I was convinced you guys were crying over
nothing...
I opened them up, looked through them and... threw the corp
headquarters and bum's rush in the trash, his cards are so awful, I
can't believe WW printed them. Seriously, to the artist, I am sorry
to be such an asshole to you, but your artwork does NOT translate well
to cards, please find other media.
Christopher Shy has a lot of art in the game, much of it looks MUCH
better in a large format, and I am gonna hope this guy is the same.
If not, I have to guess they were QUICKLY trying to have an image...
Cut out Newspaper letter saying " Look behind you" would have been
COMPLETELY better for Bum's Rush.
A true disappointment.
David
Ann Arbor
Peter D Bakija
> You can go on and on and try to describe to people about how they
> shouldn't be taking this as seriously as they are, but is it really
> worth as much time as you've invested in it? I mean, if taste
> in most art is subjective, of what value is it to you in continuing
> responding to The Chat haters?
Kevin, are you honestly criticizing *me* for the amount of time
invested in a stupid newsgroup discussion?
Ooh! Snap! If there was an emoticon that indicated drawing a "1" in
the air with my finger, I'd be soooo doing that right now :-)
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> It's entirely possible that WW did commission the art ahead of time
> but the artist just didn't make the deadline for whatever reason.
> Could be the cause of the delayed release, too. Wasn't Kestrelle Hayes
> printed in a delayed set as well?
Bonus points for Suoli!
-Peter
floppyzedolfin
If that is correct, I hope it's another argument for never having this
artist produce illustrations for WW again.
But I think I remember Oscar telling me the release date was delayed
due to printing issues; not to cards not being finished.
Kevin M.
> "Kevin M." wrote:
>> You can go on and on and try to describe to people about how
>> they shouldn't be taking this as seriously as they are, but
>> is it really worth as much time as you've invested in it? I mean,
>> if taste in most art is subjective, of what value is it to you in
>> continuing responding to The Chat haters?
>
> Kevin, are you honestly criticizing *me* for the amount of time
> invested in a stupid newsgroup discussion?
Clearly not, since we both spend too much time doing that. ;)
What I'm trying to do is ask you extremely specific questions about
an extremely specific newsgroup behavior which I see you engaging
in, which I do not engage in, which I believe to be detrimental to you.
Peter D Bakija
> What I'm trying to do is ask you extremely specific questions about
> an extremely specific newsgroup behavior which I see you engaging
> in, which I do not engage in, which I believe to be detrimental to you.
It is very sweet that you are concerned for my well being. I wouldn't
worry about it :-)
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> At this point, LSJ/Oscar/whoever could've put up an ad here / on the
> WW forum saying "new art needed for these 8 staples. Sorry no payment,
> just the satisfaction of having your work on an offical card. Needed
> ASAP. Only serious entries, please. E-mail us for specifications
> at..."
While I can't say for sure, as I'm not in the card publishing
industry, I suspect that this is far more effort than it is worth. It
seems far more likely that finding someone who is a known quantity, if
even a questionable known quantity, and engaging them to fill in the
gap, is vastly more efficient than randomly fishing for submissions
from amateurs.
-Peter
Kevin M.
By your command.
Damnans
WW/CCP could take a look at those amateurs' portfolios before
comissioning any artwork from them.
--
Damnans
http://www.almadrava.net/damnans
http://www.vtes.net
http://es.groups.yahoo.com/group/vteshispania/
http://iuturna.sorcery.net (IRC channel: #vtes)
Peter D Bakija
> WW/CCP could take a look at those amateurs' portfolios before
> comissioning any artwork from them.
Sure. At which point they are just hiring someone. Which is what they
already did. And people are complaining about...
-Peter
Damnans
They would be hiring someone (perhaps for free), and the chances of the
resulting artwork being a bad joke would be lower.
Peter D Bakija
> They would be hiring someone (perhaps for free), and the chances of the
> resulting artwork being a bad joke would be lower.
And yet presumably they already did exactly that (i.e. looked at
someone's portfolio to get quick, low cost art) and the resulting
artwork is already considered a bad joke. So how is the plan you
suggest going to change that?
-Peter
Damnans
Gary's portfolio does not indicate he could make a decent VTES artist.
Other artists' portfolios may. So the plan would be to choose those
artists whose artwork fits in with VTES.
Peter D Bakija
> Gary's portfolio does not indicate he could make a decent VTES artist.
> Other artists' portfolios may. So the plan would be to choose those
> artists whose artwork fits in with VTES.
Do you have special insight as to what the art director at WW looked
at when they decided to hire Gary for this job? It is true that his
online portfolio does not seem to indicate that this is the case. What
makes you think that is what they used to hire him?
-Peter
Damnans
I have no idea about what made WW/CCP make such a terrible choice. So I
am giving my opinion on how things could have been handled with regards
to this issue.
Peter D Bakija
> I have no idea about what made WW/CCP make such a terrible choice. So I
> am giving my opinion on how things could have been handled with regards
> to this issue.
I'd think that as someone who does illustrations for this game, you'd
at the very least have some level of sympathy/empathy for this guy--
while I like the stuff you do, it seems likely someone out there
doesn't. You want them calling for you to get physically abused?
Declaring the use of your work a terrible choice?
-Peter
Damnans
> On Feb 7, 1:05 pm, Damnans <damnansv...@ono.com> wrote:
>> I have no idea about what made WW/CCP make such a terrible choice. So I
>> am giving my opinion on how things could have been handled with regards
>> to this issue.
>
> I'd think that as someone who does illustrations for this game, you'd
> at the very least have some level of sympathy/empathy for this guy--
I have nothing against Gary. He may be a nice guy and even a decent
illustrator. What I am criticizing is most of the artwork he did for HttB.
> while I like the stuff you do, it seems likely someone out there
> doesn't. You want them calling for you to get physically abused?
> Declaring the use of your work a terrible choice?
I do not honestly think this Gary issue to be a matter of taste. It's a
matter of bad results probably due to lack of time.
_angst_
I'm no artist but I would also understand that actual artists of this
game wouldn't feel much sympathy for someone who has swiped some
pictures of the internet and posed them as "art".
In my opinion this isn't really a discussion of which kinds of art
people like. It's not an "I think Chris Shy does too many similar and
dull pics for v:tes" discussion since atleast what Chris shy has
published so far atleast is art. It's more of a statement that we as
v:tes customers expect more quality than someone doing a google image
search for goth soft porn and publish the results on the cards we
spend money buying.
Sure it's harsh to call for physical abuse but I'm sure that was sort
of a joke and I'm hoping no-one took it as anything else. Calling it a
terrible choice isn't very harsh though. Since there is no way getting
around the fact that it is. I'm sure this guy has alot of talents but
in this case it's just pretty obvious that he didn't even try.
Regards
Alex
_angst_
>
> is it any diferent? nope, I don't think so. Certainly not enough to
> change attribution.
Good god. It's Camille Devereux all over again. Does your friend know
about this copyright infringement and if so what does he/she think?
And the people depicted... What's their opinion on the matter?
Regards
Alex
Peter D Bakija
> I do not honestly think this Gary issue to be a matter of taste. It's a
> matter of bad results probably due to lack of time.
Probably. And the lack of time is probably the main contributing
factor to all of this. So we got quick work, which is a tiny fraction
of the set, of which a couple are arguably horrible, a few are
arguably completely neutral, and a few are arguably kind of good. Is
this much agita over a couple bad illustrations warranted?
-Peter
Peter D Bakija
> I'm no artist but I would also understand that actual artists of this
> game wouldn't feel much sympathy for someone who has swiped some
> pictures of the internet and posed them as "art".
Again, the issue was likely time. And possibly money. They probably
needed illustrations in a very short period of time. Which happens.
Considering the tiny fraction of pictures in a large set this is, I
think it is reasonable to just go with it.
> In my opinion this isn't really a discussion of which kinds of art
> people like. It's not an "I think Chris Shy does too many similar and
> dull pics for v:tes" discussion since atleast what Chris shy has
> published so far atleast is art. It's more of a statement that we as
> v:tes customers expect more quality than someone doing a google image
> search for goth soft porn and publish the results on the cards we
> spend money buying.
Sure. But you can say the same thing about any number of images in the
game. As a VTES customer, I expect more quality than what we got for
Ambush. Or heck--Lords of Serenity in this set. I dislike that
illustration more than any of Gary Chatterson's stuff in the set. And
to be clear, I'm not wildly fond of Chatterson's stuff. I like the
Deflection. I like the Dreams. Bonding, appropriated or no, is not
horrible. The rest is mostly just forgettable.
> Sure it's harsh to call for physical abuse but I'm sure that was sort
> of a joke and I'm hoping no-one took it as anything else.
Oh, I know. I pointed that out way early in this discussion. It was
just inappropriate comedy. But still, excessive.
-Peter
Huruem
Apparently images on this website are royalty free.
Arthur
_angst_
Ah, interesting :)
//Alex
Damnans
I do not think it is. But it is worth discussing.
simcof
> On Feb 6, 10:21 am, Ashur <ashur.ashur...@gmail.com> wrote:> > I think this: It is sad that White Wolf don´t care more of the artwork
> > than what they seem to do. I almost puked when I saw the new Bum´s
> > Rush. It isn´t even artwork. It looks like some dudes from WW just
> > took a "funny" photo outside the office.
>
> Who said WW don't care about the artwork? I'm sure LSJ / WW would have
> loved to have some great peice of art on a reprint, but the finacial
> reality is that they may not be able to afford great artwork for
> reprinted cards, or, the addition of reprints was late due to Ben
> designing the (far superior) decks and WW needed *something* to fill
> the gaps? Would you have prefered for the set to be delayed longer due
> to "unforseen printing issues" to get a nice bum's rush (which, lets
> be honest, every long time player has enough of) or would you want the
> set to be released "as is"? We all want good things for Vtes, but
> seriously, when it comes to art (which can cost a fortune), we have to
> be reasonable.
>
> Cheers
> Sutekh_23
"Ben" as in Ben Peal?
starters were pretty good apart from rubbish like murmur of the false
will and 5 baseball bats! the 3 grapple/3 slam/signpost/taste is very
good for starters as is the extra freak drives and target vitals.
Ivan .
yes, they are royalty free in the mean that you purchase the licence
to use it on your promotion material without paying royalties for what
you earned with it to the original artist, but with a clear but not
obviously enough enforced clause that you have to attribute the artist
and the image agent company you bought it from. if you want to use it
for a reselable product and in certain number of copies you have to
pay extended licence in the ballpark of $100 (still cheap), but in all
cases COPYRIGHT remains with the artist and no other person should be
signed as the "illustrator" without heavy heavy derivation of work
(like you take one image and after heavy retouching use it as a small
part of some other image so the original is no longer recognizable)
and still you don't own the copyright for the piece you bought licence
to use. Gary did exactly what with this image? cropping? 2 sec of
work. It's all in the terms of agreement nobody apparently reads. I
know, I submit my work to that site too. And this artist submits
exclusively to them, so no, Gary couldn't get it from some other
source.
Yes, I notified my friend immediately first thing when I have seen it,
I didn't get a response yet. If they have an appropriate licence (tip
for the art division of WW: purchase extended licence if you haven't
already to cover yourself and in that way also reward the original
author) then everything is probably ok. if they have just a regular
licence they have to check whether the terms match the use. But,
(another tip), snatch snatch, say no more, say no more :), it is still
not too late to purchase the appropriate licence.
Reyda !
oh sweet jesus, this will never ever end...
look at Albrecht's portfolio.
http://www.albrecht-illo.com/published/whitewolfpub.html
this is the person who made Afifa the herald.
On the right you can see Una, as it should have been published.
The art director did not allow this. PHEW !!
instead we got Shy's art on Una.
Look at her amateurish portfolio, and you'll have an idea why she
shouldn't have been chosen in the first place for V:tes cards.
thanks for your attention.
Teeka
> On Feb 7, 6:49 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 7, 12:41 pm, Damnans <damnansv...@ono.com> wrote:
>
> > > Gary's portfolio does not indicate he could make a decent VTES artist.
> > > Other artists' portfolios may. So the plan would be to choose those
> > > artists whose artwork fits in with VTES.
>
> > Do you have special insight as to what the art director at WW looked
> > at when they decided to hire Gary for this job? It is true that his
> > online portfolio does not seem to indicate that this is the case. What
> > makes you think that is what they used to hire him?
>
> > -Peter
>
> oh sweet jesus, this will never ever end...
>
>
> this is the person who made Afifa the herald.
> On the right you can see Una, as it should have been published.
> The art director did not allow this. PHEW !!
> instead we got Shy's art on Una.
>
Holy Sh*t.. how old is (s)he, 12? That IS terrible.
> Look at her amateurish portfolio, and you'll have an idea why she
> shouldn't have been chosen in the first place for V:tes cards.
>
Making WW's motives in hiring artists stranger and stranger...
> thanks for your attention.
Yeah, thanks. I'll never badmouth Shy again, now knowing that this was
the alternative.
Ivan .
> On Feb 7, 6:49 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 7, 12:41 pm, Damnans <damnansv...@ono.com> wrote:
>
> > > Gary's portfolio does not indicate he could make a decent VTES artist.
> > > Other artists' portfolios may. So the plan would be to choose those
> > > artists whose artwork fits in with VTES.
>
> > Do you have special insight as to what the art director at WW looked
> > at when they decided to hire Gary for this job? It is true that his
> > online portfolio does not seem to indicate that this is the case. What
> > makes you think that is what they used to hire him?
>
> > -Peter
>
> oh sweet jesus, this will never ever end...
>
>
> this is the person who made Afifa the herald.
> On the right you can see Una, as it should have been published.
> The art director did not allow this. PHEW !!
> instead we got Shy's art on Una.
>
> Look at her amateurish portfolio, and you'll have an idea why she
> shouldn't have been chosen in the first place for V:tes cards.
>
> thanks for your attention.
Wow. this is classic talentless children scrabbling. How does one
pursue career in illustration with skill like these?
Yup, Shy's Una is waaaay better, at least you see illustrator's
skillful hand (if not imagination) in his work.
Meej
> On Feb 7, 6:49 pm, Peter D Bakija <p...@lightlink.com> wrote:
>
> > On Feb 7, 12:41 pm, Damnans <damnansv...@ono.com> wrote:
>
> > > Gary's portfolio does not indicate he could make a decent VTES artist.
> > > Other artists' portfolios may. So the plan would be to choose those
> > > artists whose artwork fits in with VTES.
>
> > Do you have special insight as to what the art director at WW looked
> > at when they decided to hire Gary for this job? It is true that his
> > online portfolio does not seem to indicate that this is the case. What
> > makes you think that is what they used to hire him?
>
>
> look at Albrecht's portfolio.http://www.albrecht-illo.com/published/whitewolfpub.html
And, looking at the rest of her portfolio, it's pretty clear why she
was - she's got some excellent black-and-white portraits, including a
fair amount of goth/vampire stuff:
http://www.albrecht-illo.com/published/bloodymary.jpg
http://www.albrecht-illo.com/published/deadlybeauty.jpg
http://www.albrecht-illo.com/published/scars.jpg
http://www.albrecht-illo.com/prints/thechange.jpg
for instance.
It's very clear that her color work, and her sense of how to use color
(which is pretty much required for VTES cards) is weak, yes. But if
you'd only seen her B&W vampire portraits, she'd likely come across as
a good pick.
Also, keep in mind that her Una (which I'm not defending - it's
completely inappropriate) and Afifa (which isn't great either) weren't
*in* that portfolio at the time, and are pretty much the worst work in
it.
And she hasn't been re-hired by WW for VTES, either.
So give it a damn rest, already. WW made an arguably-poor decision,
presumably based on the portfolio Mr. Chatterton chose to provide,
which you HAVE NOT SEEN. Gary turned in some work that's well below
the rest of his standards (though I think, honestly, that several of
the pieces are actually quite nice). One of them turns out not to
have been his, a fact which we wouldn't know unless one of the
regulars around here happened to know the actual photographer. It
seems very doubtful that WW will hire him again.
Just drop the overwrought outrage, and don't play with the cards. And
enough with the "ripped-off" hyperbole - it's not as though you bought
a starter to get more Bum's Rushes, Computer Hackings, or even
Corporate Hunting Grounds.
- D.J.
Reyda !
>
> And, looking at the rest of her portfolio, it's pretty clear why she
> was - she's got some excellent black-and-white portraits, including a
> fair amount of goth/vampire stuff:
Yes i saw the b&w art too.
Yes, they really look like drawing from scanned photographs.
But I can't say they are bad, since they please my eyes and are well
drawn.
I just wanted to point that the person who commended illustration
should have paid attention to the color part of her portfolio. The
angels'n fairy stuff is just plain bad, with bad proportions and
sketchy coloring. Everyone with (or without ) a little art education
can spot this...
> It's very clear that her color work, and her sense of how to use color
> (which is pretty much required for VTES cards) is weak, yes. But if
> you'd only seen her B&W vampire portraits, she'd likely come across as
> a good pick.
but the illustrations for the game are in color... The art director
should'nt have checked the portfolio in its entirety ?
> Also, keep in mind that her Una (which I'm not defending - it's
> completely inappropriate) and Afifa (which isn't great either) weren't
> *in* that portfolio at the time, and are pretty much the worst work in
> it.
Yes, since they were added after execution : come on ! :)
> And she hasn't been re-hired by WW for VTES, either.
which is good news !
> So give it a damn rest, already. WW made an arguably-poor decision,
> presumably based on the portfolio Mr. Chatterton chose to provide,
> which you HAVE NOT SEEN. Gary turned in some work that's well below
> the rest of his standards (though I think, honestly, that several of
> the pieces are actually quite nice). One of them turns out not to
> have been his, a fact which we wouldn't know unless one of the
> regulars around here happened to know the actual photographer. It
> seems very doubtful that WW will hire him again.
Hurrah ! \o/
but the subject of the discussion slightly moved from Chatterton = bad
choice to Art director = slightly mistaken...
but thanks for your input though :)
Meej
> On 11 fév, 14:49, Meej <dj...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > It's very clear that her color work, and her sense of how to use color
> > (which is pretty much required for VTES cards) is weak, yes. But if
> > you'd only seen her B&W vampire portraits, she'd likely come across as
> > a good pick.
>
> but the illustrations for the game are in color... The art director
> should'nt have checked the portfolio in its entirety ?
I'm sorry. Clearly you were there in 2004, with the art director
reviewing the portfolio. Was her portfolio online? What was
submitted? Please, either enlighten us how you've got such amazing
knowledge, or drop the assumption that the art director *didn't* check
the entire submitted portfolio.
People tend to only submit positive references for jobs, you know.
And they often leave off parts of a resume that aren't flattering.
And yet they get hired! Shock! Gasp!
Yes, if you google Gary Chatterton you get his online portfolio. But
if you've got actual art of his (or at least that he's claiming as
his) in front of you as a real portfolio, why would you?
Or have you done actual art direction that I don't know about?
> but the subject of the discussion slightly moved from Chatterton = bad
> choice to Art director = slightly mistaken...
Oh, well if that's what you want: Seems they managed to make the art
budget include a lot of reprints, including Deflection, Sport Bike,
Dreams of the Sphinx, and others by Gary, as well as the (presumably
higher-priced) Govern the Unaligned, Enhanced Senses, and other
reprint art that folks seem to love. If the budget for reprints
stretched half again as far by having Gary do some of the art, then
Gary was a good choice.
Plus, some of the photorealist illustrations aren't all that bad.
Well over half of his (and one that turns out not to be his) are more
than just palatable, in my opinion, and only two struck me as "oh, my,
that's horrid" (Bum's Rush, and one I've blocked out).
- D.J.
Reyda !
> On Feb 11, 11:03 am, "Reyda !" <rey...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 11 fév, 14:49, Meej <dj...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > It's very clear that her color work, and her sense of how to use color
> > > (which is pretty much required for VTES cards) is weak, yes. But if
> > > you'd only seen her B&W vampire portraits, she'd likely come across as
> > > a good pick.
>
> > but the illustrations for the game are in color... The art director
> > should'nt have checked the portfolio in its entirety ?
>
> I'm sorry. Clearly you were there in 2004, with the art director
> reviewing the portfolio. Was her portfolio online? What was
> submitted? Please, either enlighten us how you've got such amazing
> knowledge, or drop the assumption that the art director *didn't* check
> the entire submitted portfolio.
yes, the portfolio was online. When a new extension get printed, i
always check for the websites of new artists, to see what kind of
thing they draw. Just because i'm curious and i'm interested in which
art ends on the cards i buy.
> People tend to only submit positive references for jobs, you know.
> And they often leave off parts of a resume that aren't flattering.
> And yet they get hired! Shock! Gasp!
And any director can check the web to have a more global view of
someone's creation.
I don't know where you want to go... Are you seriously going to tell
me that an art director does not have 5 minutes to check the
illustrator's site (which is often written in said person's email
signature) before hiring him/her ? (-_-;)
> Yes, if you google Gary Chatterton you get his online portfolio. But
> if you've got actual art of his (or at least that he's claiming as
> his) in front of you as a real portfolio, why would you?
Why would i not ? It's like 2 clicks away !!!
come on, i was working for magazines long before the internet era, and
yes, at that time, we could only check the pieces illustrators showed
us. But now you can browse every gallery the author put online. And
that's a necessity, because then, you can command the right pieces to
the right illustrator. Someone is good at portraits ? Give him a bunch
of vampires to draw. Someone is good at landscapes ? Give him some
locations.
It's part of the job, isn't it ?
> Or have you done actual art direction that I don't know about?
I ordered illustration for the magazines i worked for, using the
method i just wrote above. I never pretended to be an art director,
but i was interested in my job. Above all i wanted readers to be happy
when they buy the magazine and see what's inside -be it picture or
text wise.
> > but the subject of the discussion slightly moved from Chatterton = bad
> > choice to Art director = slightly mistaken...
>
> Oh, well if that's what you want: Seems they managed to make the art
> budget include a lot of reprints, including Deflection, Sport Bike,
> Dreams of the Sphinx, and others by Gary, as well as the (presumably
> higher-priced) Govern the Unaligned, Enhanced Senses, and other
> reprint art that folks seem to love.
i heard that it was a necessity
1-to reprint those cards by popular demand
2-to put new illustration on them.
So yes, they actually succeded in some departments.
> If the budget for reprints
> stretched half again as far by having Gary do some of the art, then
> Gary was a good choice.
I don't know, i have no idea, i have not the slightest clue.
The only thing i know is : some illustrations are so crappy that
people from all over the world (all over the net ?^^) complain. Is it
too complicated to understand that, if an artist pleases NO ONE, then
MAYBE, the art director made BAD choices ?
When you see the initial Una illustration, can't you also think that
MAYBE, the art director made a BAD choice also ?
Meej
(snip the part where you show that, despite the rampant hyperbole
that's all over everything else, you actually *do* have some idea what
you're talking about. I'm impressed that you've actually got some
picture-ordering experience, and yes, the AD should have checked web
references, but didn't.)
> The only thing i know is : some illustrations are so crappy that
> people from all over the world (all over the net ?^^) complain. Is it
> too complicated to understand that, if an artist pleases NO ONE, then
> MAYBE, the art director made BAD choices ?
Oh. OK, then, sure. No argument with that.
Unfortunately for that having any validity, I *like* the new Dreams of
the Sphinx art. Peter *likes* the new Deflection. Others have spoken
up saying they *like* the Computer Hacking illo.
Nobody, anywhere, seems to like the new Bum's Rush. I'll grant you
that one. And lots of folks seemed to like the new Bonding, before we
found out it wasn't actually Gary's.
> When you see the initial Una illustration, can't you also think that
> MAYBE, the art director made a BAD choice also ?
I've never said that they weren't sub-par picks. And clearly, since
the artist for Afifa/Una wasn't rehired, the AD thought so as well.
But we're at the same point where you seem to be with Jesse on another
thread: You're vehemently arguing he's saying something he's not.
Either you're not reading, or you're being deliberately obtuse, or
you're just plain trolling.
Let me be as clear as I can here:
The "art" by Gary Chatterton is not a great choice. Agreed. People
need to get the hell over it, get a sense of perspective, and deal
with the fact that a few reprints (not new cards), most of which they
don't really care about anyway (and which weren't what they bought the
starters for, unlike the Target Vitals and Deep Songs and Shroud of
Absence and Villeins), have sub-par art. There was no "rip-off,"
because (as noted) these weren't what you bought the starter for, and
if someone gets violently ill (or just violent) looking at a 2"x2"
picture, both of which some folks have claimed, xe needs PROFESSIONAL
HELP.
THAT is what I, and (I dare say) Peter, have been trying to
communicate.
Clear enough?
- D.J.
Reyda !
> On Feb 11, 2:57 pm, "Reyda !" <rey...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> (snip the part where you show that, despite the rampant hyperbole
> that's all over everything else, you actually *do* have some idea what
> you're talking about. I'm impressed that you've actually got some
> picture-ordering experience, and yes, the AD should have checked web
> references, but didn't.)
thank you for at least agreeing on this :)
(snip almost everything else)
> Unfortunately for that having any validity, I *like* the new Dreams of
> the Sphinx art. Peter *likes* the new Deflection. Others have spoken
> up saying they *like* the Computer Hacking illo.
actually, most people didn't say : "i really like the new deflection"
but rather something in the line of :"the new deflection is not so
bad".
but ok, i got your point.
> Nobody, anywhere, seems to like the new Bum's Rush. I'll grant you
> that one. And lots of folks seemed to like the new Bonding, before we
> found out it wasn't actually Gary's.
i was impressed by the bonding too. Great photograph. Too bad it's not
from the illustrator ^^
> > When you see the initial Una illustration, can't you also think that
> > MAYBE, the art director made a BAD choice also ?
>
> I've never said that they weren't sub-par picks. And clearly, since
> the artist for Afifa/Una wasn't rehired, the AD thought so as well.
Yup. But once again, correct internet check = no bad surprises.
> But we're at the same point where you seem to be with Jesse on another
> thread: You're vehemently arguing he's saying something he's not.
> Either you're not reading, or you're being deliberately obtuse, or
> you're just plain trolling.
let's say i'm a troll. See, i start to regenerate :)
(snip the not-the-end-of-the-world scenario)
> Clear enough?
>
> - D.J.
Yes. Those bad illustration won't kill anyone. We were not robbed of
our money at gunpoint. But please, stop finding petty excuses for a
job not so well done. That's all we (the non-bakija on this thread)
are trying to express for a while now. It's that simple.
case close :)
Peter D Bakija
> Yes. Those bad illustration won't kill anyone. We were not robbed of
> our money at gunpoint. But please, stop finding petty excuses for a
> job not so well done. That's all we (the non-bakija on this thread)
> are trying to express for a while now. It's that simple.
Sigh. No one is finding "petty excuses" for a job not well done. The
art is what it is. It is for the most part, forgettable. In a couple
instances, not good. In a couple instances, reasonably pleasing. There
is probably a concrete reason (i.e. time/money) that it is what it is.
This is not a "petty excuse", it is simply reality.
This all could have been covered by people simply saying "Huh. I don't
really like that Gary Chatterton's stuff. I hope they don't use him
again.", like, days ago, and saved everyone a lot of agita.
-Peter
Reyda !
> This all could have been covered by people simply saying "Huh. I don't
> really like that Gary Chatterton's stuff.
or by you not jumping in to explain there might have been a problem
with budget, time, copyrights, french fries or whatever... ;)
Peter D Bakija
> or by you not jumping in to explain there might have been a problem
> with budget, time, copyrights, french fries or whatever... ;)
But, see, that is actually relevant to the discussion (as opposed to
claims of vomiting...). If Gary Chatterson was hired 'cause the art
director loved his illustration for Bum's Rush and paid top dollar for
said illustration, that is one thing. If Gary Chatterson was hired
'cause their was a time and/or money crunch, and it helped get the set
done on budget and time, that is a completely different thing.
-Peter