Stacking Spying Mission (Yes, I know you're tired of this)

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Eric Simon

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Feb 6, 2003, 2:55:55 PM2/6/03
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But I do actually have some semi-new approaches to this question,
including (gasp!) a way of interpreting this that has not been
suggested before. (As far as I can tell with a partial historical
record. I stopped google-searching after the first 50 threads or so,
so feel free to correct me if this stuff HAS been said before.)

The key question that I have revolves around the timing of effects,
not of the the playing of the second card (which is the part that
renders the bleed unsuccessful) but of the burning of the first card.

Relevant Card text (at superior):
"Only usable when a bleed is successful. Instead of removing pool from
the Methuselah you're bleeding, put this card on the acting vampire.
The next time this vampire successfully bleeds the same Methuselah,
burn this card for +2 bleed."

It's the last sentence I'm interested in. We know that burning the
card happens after certain things, such as Deflection and Mask or the
opportunity to play AI, but we also know that it happens BEFORE
certain things. Example - Burning the Spying Mission for +2 bleed
MUST happen before bleed reduction effects, otherwise a Folderol or
inferior Telepathic Counter could reduce the bleed to 0 before the
bonus is added and cause the bleed to be unsuccessful (thus not
burning the SM). This is clearly not the way things work right now,
but to be consistent with the current stacking ruling, perhaps they
should. (I don't actually think that, I'm just stirring the pot
here.) However, because you can play bleed reduction effects after
the Spying Mission card is burned (which then once again renders the
bleed unsuccessful), that sets a precedent that there is still a point
in time where the bleed is successful (requiring the burning of the
card) before the final resolution of pool loss.

See where I'm going with this? Okay, so if we consider the playing of
Spying Mission at superior another form of bleed reduction (which it
very clearly is by card text), then the burning of the existing Spying
Mission should happen before the second one can be played. In my
mind, this leads to a very clear resolution - Spying Missions do not
stack. In order to play the second one, you must have reached a point
where you burn the first one. You bleed for 3, but instead of the
target losing 3 pool you play a Spying Mission. In other words,
subsequent Spying Missions essentially just burn the previous one with
no bonus effect.

I understand the logic behind the stacking ruling, but I will say that
if that's the way it's gonna be, I think there should also be a ruling
that allows bleed reduction or other effects to render the bleed
unsuccessful BEFORE the existing Spying Mission has a chance to
activate. For SM to stack, it has to be the absolute LAST thing to
happen. From my understanding, this is not how it's currently played.

Does this make sense? I know everyone asks for clarification on this
and the ruling doesn't seem to have changed since '96, but I think
this helps narrow down exactly what is still goofy about this (at
least for me). Please help clarify when Spying Mission happens in
terms of bleed reduction, because I think that is the key element.

-Volya42

John P.

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Feb 6, 2003, 4:01:26 PM2/6/03
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"Eric Simon" <vol...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:6f81fa2c.0302...@posting.google.com...
<snip>

> It's the last sentence I'm interested in. We know that burning the
> card happens after certain things, such as Deflection and Mask or the
> opportunity to play AI, but we also know that it happens BEFORE
> certain things. Example - Burning the Spying Mission for +2 bleed
> MUST happen before bleed reduction effects, otherwise a Folderol or
> inferior Telepathic Counter could reduce the bleed to 0 before the
> bonus is added and cause the bleed to be unsuccessful (thus not
> burning the SM). This is clearly not the way things work right now,
> but to be consistent with the current stacking ruling, perhaps they
> should. (I don't actually think that, I'm just stirring the pot
> here.) However, because you can play bleed reduction effects after
> the Spying Mission card is burned (which then once again renders the
> bleed unsuccessful), that sets a precedent that there is still a point
> in time where the bleed is successful (requiring the burning of the
> card) before the final resolution of pool loss.

I think this is where the problem lies in your logic. You cannot
reduce the bleed for spying mission once the +2 modifier has
been burnt. Burning a previously played spying mission is not an action
modifier (its a card in play) and occurs only when the bleed is successful
and occurs after All reductions, deflections, etc.

Order: (simplified)
Bleed announced
Block attempts resolved
Deflections, Telepathic counters, bleed boosters, etc
Bleed successful (assuming still positive)
Play Spying mission or burn existing spying missions

But because I've had diffculties in the past with the timing of spying missions
though, I'll toss a judicious IANLSJ in here.

-JTP


Kulaid

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Feb 6, 2003, 9:11:02 PM2/6/03
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"John P." <verg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<h2A0a.37930$7_.1...@news1.mts.net>...

From what I understand too, is you burn the Spying missions AFTER
telepathic counters and after all the other goodies... After
deflections and such... And the good thing is.. If deflected... you
can use it to prevent the pool lost to the meth that it was deflected
too... And can't be archoned... So if somehow you get to stack like
10 on one vampire... (Unlikely I know...) When he ever bleed for 1,
he can burn it ALL off for 20 bleed... Which can't be deflected, or
archon investigated...

Eric Simon

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Feb 7, 2003, 10:22:06 AM2/7/03
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Kula...@yahoo.com (Kulaid) wrote in message news:<c4ec918b.03020...@posting.google.com>...

> "John P." <verg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<h2A0a.37930$7_.1...@news1.mts.net>...
> > "Eric Simon" <vol...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:6f81fa2c.0302...@posting.google.com...
> > <snip>
[snip myself]

> > You cannot
> > reduce the bleed for spying mission once the +2 modifier has
> > been burnt. Burning a previously played spying mission is not an action
> > modifier (its a card in play) and occurs only when the bleed is successful
> > and occurs after All reductions, deflections, etc.
> >
> > Order: (simplified)
> > Bleed announced
> > Block attempts resolved
> > Deflections, Telepathic counters, bleed boosters, etc
> > Bleed successful (assuming still positive)
> > Play Spying mission or burn existing spying missions
> >
> > But because I've had diffculties in the past with the timing of spying missions
> > though, I'll toss a judicious IANLSJ in here.
> >
> > -JTP
>
> From what I understand too, is you burn the Spying missions AFTER
> telepathic counters and after all the other goodies... After
> deflections and such... And the good thing is.. If deflected... you
> can use it to prevent the pool lost to the meth that it was deflected
> too... And can't be archoned... So if somehow you get to stack like
> 10 on one vampire... (Unlikely I know...) When he ever bleed for 1,
> he can burn it ALL off for 20 bleed... Which can't be deflected, or
> archon investigated...

If you guys are correct that's fine, since that fits my criteria of it
being the last thing that happens. Oddly enough, this apparently
obvious understanding doesn't seem to be in any threads that I could
find, and honestly I've never seen it played this way. Anybody got an
official quote on this?

-Volya42

LSJ

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Feb 7, 2003, 10:56:31 AM2/7/03
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Eric Simon wrote:
> If you guys are correct that's fine, since that fits my criteria of it
> being the last thing that happens. Oddly enough, this apparently
> obvious understanding doesn't seem to be in any threads that I could
> find, and honestly I've never seen it played this way. Anybody got an
> official quote on this?

It is correct. The Spying Mission in play is not burnt until the
bleed resolves successfully. Telepathic Counter is played before
reaching resolution.

For more, Google: "spying mission successful after modifiers author:LSJ"

--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

John Flournoy

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Feb 7, 2003, 12:45:15 PM2/7/03
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vol...@yahoo.com (Eric Simon) wrote in message news:<6f81fa2c.0302...@posting.google.com>...

> But I do actually have some semi-new approaches to this question,
> including (gasp!) a way of interpreting this that has not been
> suggested before. (As far as I can tell with a partial historical
> record. I stopped google-searching after the first 50 threads or so,
> so feel free to correct me if this stuff HAS been said before.)

> It's the last sentence I'm interested in. We know that burning the
> card happens after certain things, such as Deflection and Mask or the
> opportunity to play AI, but we also know that it happens BEFORE
> certain things. Example - Burning the Spying Mission for +2 bleed
> MUST happen before bleed reduction effects, otherwise a Folderol or
> inferior Telepathic Counter could reduce the bleed to 0 before the
> bonus is added and cause the bleed to be unsuccessful (thus not
> burning the SM). This is clearly not the way things work right now,
> but to be consistent with the current stacking ruling, perhaps they
> should. (I don't actually think that, I'm just stirring the pot
> here.) However, because you can play bleed reduction effects after
> the Spying Mission card is burned (which then once again renders the
> bleed unsuccessful), that sets a precedent that there is still a point
> in time where the bleed is successful (requiring the burning of the
> card) before the final resolution of pool loss.

Your above statements are based on incorrect information about what
'the way things work right now' are.

As per the current and official rulings (taken from WW's website):

"Is only played if you know the bleed is successful, i.e., after you
would normally play action modifiers. [TOM 19960226]"

"Is only played after all Reaction cards (as well as other Action
Modifiers) have been played. In particular, Telepathic Counter no
longer 'beats' Spying Mission unless it is played first (and the bleed
is not boosted back to positive). [TOM 19960303]"

"After successfully being played, it must be burned on the next
unblocked bleed against the same Methuselah, provided the bleed is not
reduced to zero by other modifiers. [TOM 19950620]"

"The bleed it is played on is considered unsuccessful. Previous Spying
Missions won't be cashed in during that action. [RTR 19960530]"

"Archon Investigation cannot be played after a Spying Mission is
burned (for +2 bleed), since the bleed is already resolved at that
point. [LSJ 19980105]"

So, in fact, Telepathic Counter CAN reduce the bleed to zero before
the bonus is added, which does make it unsuccsessful (unless the bleed
is boosted back to positive before SM is burned).

Further, this last ruling is the most important. The SM is burned ONLY
when the bleed is already resolved. By card text of spying mission, it
is only burned when the bleed is both successful and against the same
methuselah, two conditions that cannot be determined until you resolve
the bleed. Once resolved, there is no chance to play further reaction
or action modifier cards, because the action is over.



> See where I'm going with this? Okay, so if we consider the playing of
> Spying Mission at superior another form of bleed reduction (which it
> very clearly is by card text), then the burning of the existing Spying
> Mission should happen before the second one can be played. In my
> mind, this leads to a very clear resolution - Spying Missions do not
> stack. In order to play the second one, you must have reached a point
> where you burn the first one. You bleed for 3, but instead of the
> target losing 3 pool you play a Spying Mission. In other words,
> subsequent Spying Missions essentially just burn the previous one with
> no bonus effect.

> I understand the logic behind the stacking ruling, but I will say that
> if that's the way it's gonna be, I think there should also be a ruling
> that allows bleed reduction or other effects to render the bleed
> unsuccessful BEFORE the existing Spying Mission has a chance to
> activate. For SM to stack, it has to be the absolute LAST thing to
> happen. From my understanding, this is not how it's currently played.

As noted above, it is in fact how it is currently played - burning an
SM is the last thing to happen, because it happens after the bleed
resolves. Further, bleed reductions played during the action that
reduce the bleed to zero do in fact prevent both an existing SM from
activating and new SMs from being played.

Burning the existing SM by rule takes place after the bleed has
resolved; playing a new SM prevents any pool loss (by card text)
making the bleed unsuccessful, which by card text prevents existing
SMs from being able to be burned. Thus the stacking.

> -Volya42

-John Flournoy

Talonz

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Feb 7, 2003, 1:45:55 PM2/7/03
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LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3E43D72F...@white-wolf.com>...

>
> It is correct. The Spying Mission in play is not burnt until the
> bleed resolves successfully. Telepathic Counter is played before
> reaching resolution.
>

For clarity then, protected resources would reduce a 1+2 spying
mission bleed to 2 correct?

Yet I recall somehow that PR kicks in before tel counter, and
therefore before spying mission, leaving you bled for 3??

T

Eric Simon

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Feb 7, 2003, 2:05:05 PM2/7/03
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LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<3E43D72F...@white-wolf.com>...
> It is correct. The Spying Mission in play is not burnt until the
> bleed resolves successfully. Telepathic Counter is played before
> reaching resolution.
>
> For more, Google: "spying mission successful after modifiers author:LSJ"

Thanks. I think I need to remember the "author:LSJ" keyword to
increase my signal to noise ratio on these searches.

-Volya42

LSJ

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Feb 8, 2003, 9:06:53 AM2/8/03
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Talonz wrote:
> For clarity then, protected resources would reduce a 1+2 spying
> mission bleed to 2 correct?

No. PR doesn't reduce bleeds at all. It merely limits the amount of
pool the controller burns.

Joshua Duffin

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Feb 10, 2003, 5:14:49 PM2/10/03
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"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3E450F26...@white-wolf.com...

> Talonz wrote:
> > For clarity then, protected resources would reduce a 1+2 spying
> > mission bleed to 2 correct?
>
> No. PR doesn't reduce bleeds at all. It merely limits the amount of
> pool the controller burns.

But Protected Resources will reduce the amount of pool the PR-having
player burns for a bleed that a previously-played Spying Mission is
enhancing, right? From 3 to 2, in the standard situation?

I was sure the answer was "yes" but the way you wrote that last
response makes me less sure. :-)


Josh

right through the ground

James Coupe

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Feb 10, 2003, 8:16:17 PM2/10/03
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In message <b2988s$1aumqe$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de>, Joshua Duffin

<jtdu...@yahoo.com> writes:
>> No. PR doesn't reduce bleeds at all. It merely limits the amount of
>> pool the controller burns.
>
>But Protected Resources will reduce the amount of pool the PR-having
>player burns for a bleed that a previously-played Spying Mission is
>enhancing, right? From 3 to 2, in the standard situation?
>
>I was sure the answer was "yes" but the way you wrote that last
>response makes me less sure. :-)

Bleed for 1. Burn Spying Mission. Total bleed 3.

Protected Resources in play. Burn 2 pool max. HOWEVER, the bleed is
still for 3. That's the difference being stressed.

--
James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2
Hi! I'm Nancy Drew! You must be the Hardy Boys! 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

LSJ

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Feb 11, 2003, 7:42:12 AM2/11/03
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James Coupe wrote:
> In message <b2988s$1aumqe$1...@ID-121616.news.dfncis.de>, Joshua Duffin
> <jtdu...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>>>No. PR doesn't reduce bleeds at all. It merely limits the amount of
>>>pool the controller burns.
>>
>>But Protected Resources will reduce the amount of pool the PR-having
>>player burns for a bleed that a previously-played Spying Mission is
>>enhancing, right? From 3 to 2, in the standard situation?
>>
>>I was sure the answer was "yes" but the way you wrote that last
>>response makes me less sure. :-)
>
>
> Bleed for 1. Burn Spying Mission. Total bleed 3.
>
> Protected Resources in play. Burn 2 pool max. HOWEVER, the bleed is
> still for 3. That's the difference being stressed.

Correct. PR limits the amount of pool the PR-having player burns for
the successful bleed. The PR-having player never burns more than 2
pool for the bleed, no matter what the bleed amount (she'll burn less
if the bleed amount is less than 2, of course).

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