Gargoyles with Abombwe?
tigernat1
newly created fishy? Normally, placing Abombwe on a vampire has
restrictions (Laibon or Protean), but I assume since I am not playing
this card in the normal fashion that it is legal.
thanks,
Nat
CthuluKitty
That is correct. The same goes for any effect that fetches disciplines
and puts them on a minion, including diablery of an older vampire.
The real question is why you'd want to give creatogoyles Abombwe.
XZealot
+1 stealth and +1 bleed with inferior abomwe.
Predator's Transformation
Type: Action Modifier/Combat
Requires: Abombwe
[abo] [REFLEX] Cancel a frenzy card played on this vampire as it is
played.
[abo] [ACTION MODIFIER] Only usable as the action is announced. +1
stealth, even if stealth is not yet needed.
[ABO] [ACTION MODIFIER][COMBAT] Only usable when this vampire burns a
minion controlled by your prey, either in combat or as a (D) action.
Your prey burns two pool. A vampire may play only one Predator's
Transformation at superior each action.
Predator's Mastery
Type: Action Modifier
Requires: Abombwe
[abo] [REFLEX] Cancel a frenzy card played on this vampire as it is
played.
[abo] +1 bleed. After playing this card, you cannot play another action
modifier to further increase the bleed for this action.
[ABO] As [abo] above, and non-mortal allies and vampires with capacity
less than 5 cannot block this action.
CthuluKitty
>
> +1 stealth and +1 bleed with inferior abomwe.
Aren't there easier ways to do weenie stealth bleed? I mean, whacky
decks can be fun and interesting, but the line has to be drawn
somewhere with regards to playability.
Or does it?
XZealot
I don't see anything wacky about it. It is the only single discipline
that gives +bleed and +stealth as action modiferis for free at
inferior.
It seems perfectly reasonable. It really should be the choice for all
progeny.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
witness1
Because Abombwe is the best Discipline in the game.
Witness1
-believe the lie
CthuluKitty
>
> Because Abombwe is the best Discipline in the game.
Are you joking? Ever heard of dominate? Or obfuscate? Presence?
Auspex?
I mean, Abombwe is good, and arguably cooler than the above named power
disciplines, but the best discipline in the game? Let's not forget to
mention that abombwe seriously sucks at the inferior level, which is
all creatogoyles will ever get unless they diablerize, become Laibon,
get protean, or do some other really weird thing.
witness1
Devil-Channel: Back - Additional strike
Invoking the Beast - Additional strength
Predator's Communion - Intercept
Predator's Transformation - Stealth
Predator's Mastery - Bleed
Whistling Up the Beast - Opponent can't maneuver close
Devil-Channel: Hands - Agg hands
Devil-Channel: Throat - Block fails
This does not strike me as a sucky discipline at the inferior level. I
realize D-C: Hands is redundant on gargoyles, and D-C: Throat isn't too
great on weenies. But you're getting a lot of options with that skill
card.
witness1
-believe the lie.
CthuluKitty
For the cost of 1 blood. How are your weenies affording this when they
lack damage prevention? Celerity is stronger in combat as it also
provides maneuvers, presses, and dodges.
> Invoking the Beast - Additional strength
1 additional strength prerange is weak, especially when you lack
Grapple. Potence is better here.
> Predator's Communion - Intercept
Only usable against vampires, which matters. And it's only 1
intercept. Why not use Auspex?
> Predator's Transformation - Stealth
Again. 1 stealth, that you have to play before people even try to
block. Hard to waste your opponent's intercept that way. Why not use
obfuscate?
> Predator's Mastery - Bleed
Dominate or Presence would be much better.
> Whistling Up the Beast - Opponent can't maneuver close
How does this combine with Invoking or DC: Hands at all? What kind of
combat are you trying to run? Additionally, this card really only does
anything at superior. At basic you'll need a maneuver from somewhere.
Besides, you have High Ground with Flight.
> Devil-Channel: Hands - Agg hands
Costs a blood, is indeed redundant with Raking Talons, and agg poke
sucks. It especially sucks when you can't reliably hit for more than 2
and you have no grapple effect.
> Devil-Channel: Throat - Block fails
Useless for weenies.
> This does not strike me as a sucky discipline at the inferior level. I
> realize D-C: Hands is redundant on gargoyles, and D-C: Throat isn't too
> great on weenies. But you're getting a lot of options with that skill
> card.
Yes. You have a lot of options, so you can do a whole bunch of things
not very well. If 1 stealth, 1 intercept, or 1 extra damage in the
abscense of significant reinforcement from other effects is
accomplishing anything it's probably because your opponents suck. Not
that I'm against toolbox decks, but those strategies require serious
card for card optimization to work. Basic abo does't give you anything
even remotely like that.
gpett...@gmail.com
> > [Abombwe is cool.]
> [But not cool enough.]
Remember, these goobers have Visceratika and Flight, too. Damage
Prevention, Maneuvers, +damage, Stealth, Intercept, everything but the
Grapple, really.
--
- Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
wumpus
XZealot wrote:
> CthuluKitty wrote:
> > > > The real question is why you'd want to give creatogoyles Abombwe.
> > >
> > > +1 stealth and +1 bleed with inferior abomwe.
> >
> > Aren't there easier ways to do weenie stealth bleed? I mean, whacky
> > decks can be fun and interesting, but the line has to be drawn
> > somewhere with regards to playability.
> >
>
> I don't see anything wacky about it. It is the only single discipline
> that gives +bleed and +stealth as action modiferis for free at
> inferior.
It's interesting (to me) to note the disciplines that come close:
Dementation, Serpentis, and Vicissitude. (All cost a blood for their
stealth.) Sure, you see a lot of weenie stealth bleed coming from
Dementation, but Serpentis and Vicissitude? Seems like there are some
real possibilities there. Norm, get on it! (Of course, you probably
already have...)
I'm pretty sure I've got some odd Serpentis progeny decks somewhere -
maybe I'll try to dig one up and post it.
> It seems perfectly reasonable. It really should be the choice for all
> progeny.
Heh. I'm pretty sure the 'logical' choice is Chimerstry...
Alex
XZealot
CthuluKitty wrote:
> > > The real question is why you'd want to give creatogoyles Abombwe.
> >
> > Because Abombwe is the best Discipline in the game.
>
>
> Are you joking?
I doubt he is because Abombwe is the "Rainbow Coalition" of effects
that are pretty good at inferior. If you have a choice of a single
skill card which is going to give you access to most of the major
variables of the game then Abombwe is that card.
Ever heard of dominate?
Doesn't give stealth for free at inferiro....
Or obfuscate?
Doesn't give bleed for free at inferior....
Presence?
Doesn't give stealth for free at inferior....
> Auspex?
Doesn't give bleed for free at inferior....
Doesn't give stealth for free at inferior....
Blooded Sand
On Nov 17, 3:32 pm, "CthuluKitty" <vtanarch...@riseup.net> wrote:
> > > The real question is why you'd want to give creatogoyles Abombwe.
>
> > Because Abombwe is the best Discipline in the game.Are you joking? Ever heard of dominate? Or obfuscate? Presence?
> Auspex?
>
> I mean, Abombwe is good, and arguably cooler than the above named power
> disciplines, but the best discipline in the game? Let's not forget to
> mention that abombwe seriously sucks at the inferior level, which is
> all creatogoyles will ever get unless they diablerize, become Laibon,
> get protean, or do some other really weird thing.
Someone smack me if my brain has stopped again, but as they have abo,
can you not play the Abo master on them? thus giving them ABO?
XZealot
You're brain has stopped. If I could only reach you right now. :)
You cannot play an Abombwe master on a vampire without the Laibon trait
or on a vampire with Protean
Thrall of Arika
comparing Abombwe versus all other disciplines in the game. Of course
Abombwe is not going to compete directly with Obfuscate in the stealth
department, nothing does, not even Obtenebration. But if you throw
Obfuscate on your little weenie, then what? Where's the additional
bleed, the additional strikes, the additional strength?
Choose one discipline, then do your comparison on utility versus focus,
otherwise your analysis has no validity.
To debate, lets look at the disciplines you chose to initially compare
against Abombwe: Auspex, Celerity, Dominate, Obfuscate, Potence,
Presence
CthuluKitty wrote:
> > Devil-Channel: Back - Additional strike
>
> For the cost of 1 blood. How are your weenies affording this when they
> lack damage prevention? Celerity is stronger in combat as it also
> provides maneuvers, presses, and dodges.
Aus: No additional strikes
Dom: No additional strikes
Obf: No additional strikes
Pot: No additional strikes
Pre: No additional strikes
As a side note, the original post was considering Create Gargoyle,
which receives basic Visceratika and Flight. Damage Prevention comes in
the form of Rockheart and Stonestrength. Maneuvers and Presses come in
a variety of Flight and Visceratika cards, though admittedly a number
are tied to other effects/circumstances.
Second side note. All the additional strikes you can get through
Celerity at basic cost 1 blood as well - Acrobatics, Blur, Lightning
Reflexes, Quickness.
> > Invoking the Beast - Additional strength
>
> 1 additional strength prerange is weak, especially when you lack
> Grapple. Potence is better here.
Aus: Excstatic Agony - Very iffy, requiring you to take damage to gain
+X strength, and requiring multiple rounds of combat.
Cel: No additional strength
Dom: No additional strength
Obf: No additional strength
Pre: No additional strength
Invoking the Beast lasts the combat, so if they sneak out to long,
press with Crawling Chamber, Stonestrength, or Circle. When you catch
them, additional strike with DC: Back. Combine with Pounce (hand strike
+2 damage) or Swoop (conditional on being at long range, +1 damage).
Potence has a few sources of similar effects. Torn Signpost is the
obvious choice, giving the minion 2 base strength (effectively +1).
Fire in the Blood and Fists of Death, each cost 1 blood, Basilisk's
Touch costs 2 blood.
> > Predator's Communion - Intercept
>
> Only usable against vampires, which matters. And it's only 1
> intercept. Why not use Auspex?
Cel: Rooftop Shadows - 'only' +1 intercept, and costs 1 blood, which
you consider near impossible to play. Also conditional on the acting
minion not having Celerity as well. You'll probably encounter more
vampires with Celerity than you will allies with high levels of
stealth.
Dom: No additional intercept
Obf: No additional intercept
Pot: No additional intercept
Pre: No additional intercept
What card gives you more than +1 intercept at the basic level? True,
Auspex gives you many sources of intercept, but none alone are more
than +1.
Combine this with Patrol, Scry the Heathstone (conditional on D
actions), and Defender of the Haven (+2 intercept, conditional on D
actions). Can also used Razor Bats.
> > Predator's Transformation - Stealth
>
> Again. 1 stealth, that you have to play before people even try to
> block. Hard to waste your opponent's intercept that way. Why not use
> obfuscate?
Aus: No additional stealth
Cel: Alacrity or Siren's Lure - +1 stealth for a cost of 2 blood
Dom: No additional stealth
Pot: No additional stealth
Pre: No additional stealth
I am confused by your statement. How is playing a stealth card at the
beginning of the action much different than say bleeding, having an
attempt to block, then playing a +1 stealth card? Or do you mean that
only one card is hard to overcome a deck with multiple sources of
intercept?
Combine with Soar (conditional on being an undirected action) or Skin
of the Chameleon (costs 1 blood, but gain a maneuver if combat occurs).
> > Predator's Mastery - Bleed
>
> Dominate or Presence would be much better.
Aus: No additional bleed
Cel: No additional bleed
Obf: No additional bleed
Pot: No additional bleed
> > Whistling Up the Beast - Opponent can't maneuver close
>
> How does this combine with Invoking or DC: Hands at all? What kind of
> combat are you trying to run? Additionally, this card really only does
> anything at superior. At basic you'll need a maneuver from somewhere.
> Besides, you have High Ground with Flight.
How does it interact for Abombwe minion? It is obviously a card meant
to give you range and let you keep things at long, so it's not meant to
combine with the hand damage cards, but to give another option for
those decks not using hand damage.
> > Devil-Channel: Hands - Agg hands
>
> Costs a blood, is indeed redundant with Raking Talons, and agg poke
> sucks. It especially sucks when you can't reliably hit for more than 2
> and you have no grapple effect.
True, this card has little utility in a Gargoyle based deck, except for
some odd cornercase where your Gargoyle's clan changes.
As discussed in the additional strength area, you can get fairly
reliable damage for 3 or 4. Certainly no worse than a weenie Potence
concept. And even without that, 2 agg is nothing to dismiss, coming
from a 2 capacity minion.
> > Devil-Channel: Throat - Block fails
>
> Useless for weenies.
This is very true, except against some Caitiff or Embrace deck, I
suppose, but hardly something to rely upon.
> > This does not strike me as a sucky discipline at the inferior level. I
> > realize D-C: Hands is redundant on gargoyles, and D-C: Throat isn't too
> > great on weenies. But you're getting a lot of options with that skill
> > card.
>
> Yes. You have a lot of options, so you can do a whole bunch of things
> not very well. If 1 stealth, 1 intercept, or 1 extra damage in the
> abscense of significant reinforcement from other effects is
> accomplishing anything it's probably because your opponents suck. Not
> that I'm against toolbox decks, but those strategies require serious
> card for card optimization to work. Basic abo does't give you anything
> even remotely like that.
Two problems with your statement.
The Abombwe is not being used in a vacuum. If the strategy is to create
Gargoyles and give them Abombwe, then of course you'll be using
Visceratika and Flight cards to supplement that. Hence, there is no
absence of reinforcement cards.
Second, there are decks out there that have little or no intercept. I
have a very successful Ishtarri Vote/Bleed deck that rarely attempts to
block anything, and even if I do try, I have no intercept beyond a
couple of Telepathic Misdirections (for bounce, rather than intercept).
+1 stealth gets by me nice and easy. I survive by bloating and ousting
quickly.
+1 intercept is strong. Are you saying that it's pointless to play with
Carlton van Wyck unless you have multiple sources of +intercept for
him?
2 damage is not a lot, true. But an additional strike makes that 4.
Press and additional strike makes that 8. Unless your opponent is
preventing, ending combat or has a combat deck themselves, that will
hurt.
And how does basic Abombwe not lead to giving anything to a toolbox
deck? It gives +1 to all the basics in the game, stealth, bleed,
intercept and strength. None of your selected disciplines gives all
that.
Though after all this, I'm not really advocating going Abombwe with
Tremere/Gargoyles, but it's certainly a valid option. Personally, I
would go with disciplines that complement the crypt vampires I'm using,
to better utilize the other cards I would have for my vampires already.
Chris, Thrall of Arika
Blooded Sand
On Nov 17, 10:06 pm, "Thrall of Arika" <christopher.ack...@amec.com>
wrote:
> > Dominate or Presence would be much better.
> Aus: No additional bleed
While I agree with everything eklse you say, I gotta ask here: Have you
heard of a card called Pulse of the canaille? Cos +2 bleed, permanent,
is pretty big to me.
Xzealot: Pppppht! *blows raspberries* you cant catch me, you cant catch
me!
James Coupe
XZealot <xze...@cox.net> writes:
>
>Blooded Sand wrote:
>> Someone smack me if my brain has stopped again, but as they have abo,
>> can you not play the Abo master on them? thus giving them ABO?
>
>You're brain has stopped. If I could only reach you right now. :)
>
>You cannot play an Abombwe master on a vampire without the Laibon trait
>or on a vampire with Protean
However, again in the context of the original post, Create Gargoyle is
one of those weenie creators that lets you inherit the sect of the
acting vampire. Though there are no Tremere / Tremere Antitribu who are
Laibon so far, you could choose to pepper a deck with a few Mozambique
Allure so that any later created Gargoyles are Laibon.
This isn't necessarily the most competitive thing in the world, but it
could be amusing.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Thrall of Arika
Blooded Sand wrote:
> On Nov 17, 10:06 pm, "Thrall of Arika" <christopher.ack...@amec.com>
> wrote:
> > > Dominate or Presence would be much better.
> > Aus: No additional bleed
> While I agree with everything eklse you say, I gotta ask here: Have you
> heard of a card called Pulse of the canaille? Cos +2 bleed, permanent,
> is pretty big to me.
Indeed I have, I love the card. But I wasn't considering Superior
versions of cards for the discussion, though I suppose for completeness
I should have.
The other minus, costs 3 blood. While possible for a Created Gaygoyle,
that's awfully expensive.
There's also:
[AUS] Ancestor's Insight, +1 bleed if you can get your Gargoyle to
become Laibon.
[DOM] Bonding, conditional +1 stealth on a bleed
[OBF] Spying Mission, conditional +2 bleed against the same methuselah
of a previous successful bleed.
Personally, I'd prefer my Pulse on a nice Tremere to powerbleed with
(with a Revelations in play for those pesky Archon Investigations).
Chris, Thrall of Arika
XZealot
James Coupe wrote:
> In message <1163793932.6...@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
> XZealot <xze...@cox.net> writes:
> >
> >Blooded Sand wrote:
> >> Someone smack me if my brain has stopped again, but as they have abo,
> >> can you not play the Abo master on them? thus giving them ABO?
> >
> >You're brain has stopped. If I could only reach you right now. :)
> >
> >You cannot play an Abombwe master on a vampire without the Laibon trait
> >or on a vampire with Protean
>
> However, again in the context of the original post, Create Gargoyle is
> one of those weenie creators that lets you inherit the sect of the
> acting vampire. Though there are no Tremere / Tremere Antitribu who are
> Laibon so far, you could choose to pepper a deck with a few Mozambique
> Allure so that any later created Gargoyles are Laibon.
>
> This isn't necessarily the most competitive thing in the world, but it
> could be amusing.
You just add Mozambique Allure, Muaziz, Ankara Citadel, and Eldest
Command Undeath.
Peachy!
Blooded Sand
On Nov 18, 1:10 am, "Thrall of Arika" <christopher.ack...@amec.com>
wrote:
> Blooded Sand wrote:
> > On Nov 17, 10:06 pm, "Thrall of Arika" <christopher.ack...@amec.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > Dominate or Presence would be much better.
> > > Aus: No additional bleed
> > While I agree with everything eklse you say, I gotta ask here: Have you
> > heard of a card called Pulse of the canaille? Cos +2 bleed, permanent,
> > is pretty big to me.Indeed I have, I love the card. But I wasn't considering Superior
> versions of cards for the discussion, though I suppose for completeness
> I should have.
>
> The other minus, costs 3 blood. While possible for a Created Gaygoyle,
> that's awfully expensive.
>
> There's also:
> [AUS] Ancestor's Insight, +1 bleed if you can get your Gargoyle to
> become Laibon.
> [DOM] Bonding, conditional +1 stealth on a bleed
> [OBF] Spying Mission, conditional +2 bleed against the same methuselah
> of a previous successful bleed.
>
> Personally, I'd prefer my Pulse on a nice Tremere to powerbleed with
> (with a Revelations in play for those pesky Archon Investigations).
>
> Chris, Thrall of Arika
Yah know, taking Norm's suggestion under the wing, Muzzie with Pulse is
beautiful. And she does the mozambique allure thing, and then the
little goyles can all get ABO.... And as she has for, add one or two
For masters so she can go freaking . bleed, untap, (for zero due to
ankara) make a weenie, untap, burn a vamp with eldest command undeath,
untap, restoration. Ew. with weenie bleed
sutekh_23
Blooded Sand wrote:
>
>
> Yah know, taking Norm's suggestion under the wing, Muzzie with Pulse is
> beautiful. And she does the mozambique allure thing, and then the
> little goyles can all get ABO.... And as she has for, add one or two
> For masters so she can go freaking . bleed, untap, (for zero due to
> ankara) make a weenie, untap, burn a vamp with eldest command undeath,
> untap, restoration. Ew. with weenie bleed
Don't forget to make muaziz magic up a codex of the damned, with all
the munching she can do your creata-gargs can get ABO pretty easily :)
Sutekh_23
CthuluKitty
> comparing Abombwe versus all other disciplines in the game. Of course
> Abombwe is not going to compete directly with Obfuscate in the stealth
> department, nothing does, not even Obtenebration. But if you throw
> Obfuscate on your little weenie, then what? Where's the additional
> bleed, the additional strikes, the additional strength?
Minions with obfuscate don't need extra strength. They have all the
stealth in the world at their disposal and they're going to use it.
Extra bleed can come from Computer Hacking, which you can afford to
play on the outset because you more or less know you're getting
through.
The point I'm making isn't that any one discipline can give you all the
+1 this or that effects that abombwe can, but that +1 this or that just
isn't good enough to win. If your offensive plan is to bleed at 1
stealth then you're basically hoping your prey sucks. If your
defensive plan is to block with 1 intercept then your predator had
better not have a brain either. If your combat (which is probably the
area of the game I know best) is getting +1 strength and paying blood
for additional strikes then you better not see a fight deck, or an
anti-fight deck. Any player committed to playing even 1 card per
combat will more or less hose your 2 cards per combat. Again, hope
your opponents suck.
> Choose one discipline, then do your comparison on utility versus focus,
> otherwise your analysis has no validity.
I'm not claiming other disciplines have greater utility. You guys have
convinced me that they don't (although dominate has +bleed and bounce,
which rocks). I'm just talking about building a deck that wins games.
To do that you need to get +x whatever, where x > 1. Abo gives you +1.
If people aren't prepared to deal with that, what are they doing?
> I am confused by your statement. How is playing a stealth card at the
> beginning of the action much different than say bleeding, having an
> attempt to block, then playing a +1 stealth card?
It is different. Sometimes people don't attempt to block, or doing so
requires that they play a wake or similar effect. In those cases you
don't have to play your stealth. With Predator's Transformation you
do, and that's a card wasted.
> Or do you mean that
> only one card is hard to overcome a deck with multiple sources of
> intercept?
That is also true. 1 static intercept and even a small number of wake
effects will ruin you completely.
> As discussed in the additional strength area, you can get fairly
> reliable damage for 3 or 4. Certainly no worse than a weenie Potence
> concept. And even without that, 2 agg is nothing to dismiss, coming
> from a 2 capacity minion.
2 agg doesn't scare me at all when it requires 2 cards or more to play,
especially when the deck is littered with a smattering of +1 xyz that
take up space to minimal effects. All I have to do is play 1 combat
card--just about any 1 combat card--and I'm safe. 2 agg can be
dismissed, *especially* when it comes from a 2 cap, because that 2 cap
is getting pounded into the ground the first time something goes wrong.
I just dismissed 2 agg. Impress me with something better.
> This is very true, except against some Caitiff or Embrace deck, I
> suppose, but hardly something to rely upon.
Again. "If my prey does nothing or does only things I have foils for I
am bound to win". That isn't the game I play. I'm sad for your
playgroup if it's the game you play.
> > > This does not strike me as a sucky discipline at the inferior level. I
> > > realize D-C: Hands is redundant on gargoyles,
yes, that's true. it is redundant on Gargoyles, but more importantly
it sucks. Wolf Claws and similar also suck, and they are much better.
>>>and D-C: Throat isn't too
> > > great on weenies.
No. It's absolutely unplayable by weenies. Unless you're specifically
metagaming against a 1 cap wall deck you'd be an idiot to put it in the
deck.
>But you're getting a lot of options with that skill
> > > card.
I just don't care. Pick some things to do and do them well. Doing
everything just a little bit isn't winning you any games, except
against morons.
> The Abombwe is not being used in a vacuum. If the strategy is to create
> Gargoyles and give them Abombwe, then of course you'll be using
> Visceratika and Flight cards to supplement that. Hence, there is no
> absence of reinforcement cards.
Neither basic vis (or even VIS for that matter) nor Flight is very
good. Rockheart is iffy, and conditional. Stonestrength is weak at
basic. Most of the other VIS cards cost blood, which your 2 caps just
don't have. Flight is really only good for Pounce, Roll, and Patrol.
Roll is great. I'll give you that. Pounce is also good, but less so
without Grapple due to the dodge problem. And if you're playing
Pounce you don't much need Invoking, except to try to combo them, which
is a fool's errand in the unfocused toolbox deck you guys are
proposing. 1 intercept each from Predator's Communion and Patrol =
ineffeciency R us.
> Second, there are decks out there that have little or no intercept. I
> have a very successful Ishtarri Vote/Bleed deck that rarely attempts to
> block anything, and even if I do try, I have no intercept beyond a
> couple of Telepathic Misdirections (for bounce, rather than intercept).
> +1 stealth gets by me nice and easy. I survive by bloating and ousting
> quickly.
Sure. There are decks with no intercept that you will get by. They
are probably the exception rather than the norm. But those decks don't
much care about the 2 bleeds you're sending at them, because as you
say, they bloat. If they don't have intercept, and they can't bloat
enough to deal with occasional bleeds for 2 from a deck that tries too
hard to do everything badly, then that deck sucks. I can't resist
coming back to this theme.
> +1 intercept is strong. Are you saying that it's pointless to play with
> Carlton van Wyck unless you have multiple sources of +intercept for
> him?
Carlton has +1 ****permanent**** intercept.
> 2 damage is not a lot, true. But an additional strike makes that 4.
> Press and additional strike makes that 8.
Wow. You just played 2 combat cards to do 4 damage. That's awesome.
What!? You can play 3 more cards and do it again! It's a good thing
you keep drawing exactly the cards you need, and it's great for you
that I strike for 0.
>Unless your opponent is
> preventing, ending combat or has a combat deck themselves, that will
> hurt.
In other words, the plan works great when your opponents do nothing.
Awesome plan.
> And how does basic Abombwe not lead to giving anything to a toolbox
> deck? It gives +1 to all the basics in the game, stealth, bleed,
> intercept and strength. None of your selected disciplines gives all
> that.
A little bit of everything will always lose to a lot of something.
> Though after all this, I'm not really advocating going Abombwe with
> Tremere/Gargoyles, but it's certainly a valid option. Personally, I
> would go with disciplines that complement the crypt vampires I'm using,
> to better utilize the other cards I would have for my vampires already.
Yeah. There's the whole other problem of actually getting your
gargoyles with abombwe into play, and figuring out something to do with
your Tremere who now share nothing in common with their kids. Good
luck building even the most barely functional of decks. Seriously,
you'll need it.
CthuluKitty
> progeny.
Even if this archetype is viable, and I'm pretty sure it isn't, this
statement is clearly hyperbole at best.
CthuluKitty
Seriously guys. These have got to be some of the most unplayable ideas
I have ever seen.
Ankur Gupta
> not very well. If 1 stealth, 1 intercept, or 1 extra damage in the
> abscense of significant reinforcement from other effects is
> accomplishing anything it's probably because your opponents suck. Not
> that I'm against toolbox decks, but those strategies require serious
> card for card optimization to work. Basic abo does't give you anything
> even remotely like that.
Except that it gives you everything without requiring:
dominate, potence, auspex, and obfuscate.
Card for card optimization is required, yes. But I'd say that Abombwe
doesn't do a bad job of doing exactly that.
Ankur
Play. The. Game.
Thrall of Arika
> The point I'm making isn't that any one discipline can give you all the
> +1 this or that effects that abombwe can, but that +1 this or that just
> isn't good enough to win. If your offensive plan is to bleed at 1
> stealth then you're basically hoping your prey sucks. If your
> defensive plan is to block with 1 intercept then your predator had
> better not have a brain either. If your combat (which is probably the
> area of the game I know best) is getting +1 strength and paying blood
> for additional strikes then you better not see a fight deck, or an
> anti-fight deck. Any player committed to playing even 1 card per
> combat will more or less hose your 2 cards per combat. Again, hope
> your opponents suck.
No, but then again, no card is played in a vacuum. And I should state
that I wouldn't just being playing Abombwe and shoving in every Abombwe
card into the deck. (What the ... how did I get to be advocating a deck
concept I would never play myself??? Oh well, the fun of discussing
ideas!)
At any rate, it basically comes down to this being a weenie deck
concept. As with any toolbox type deck, it's not going to be strong in
any one thing, but will attempt to be okay at everything. Yes, you're
not going to outcompete a focused deck that counters a part of your
tool-box. Wall decks will totally own your stealthing. Stealth
predators won't worry about your intercept. Combat decks will make you
paste.
But on the flip side, my small amounts of stealth could probably slip
by a combat deck, and even just 2 or 3 minions slipping by is 4-6 pool
damage. Your dedicated stealth deck will do fine against most, but if
it hits a dedicated wall, then what? With a tool-box, I at least have
some combat options, and ones that don't mind being grappled, which
your S:CE will cry about.
It's not about opponents sucking, and I agree that even as tool-boxes
go, I'm not sure minor Abombwe is really the way to go. It comes down
to who you're facing, and how their deck works. Even dedicated decks
are going to fail given the right prey/predator. I've had stealth vote
decks shut down by intercept decks, and left floundering because I
could do nothing else. With a tool-box, I would at least have other
options, even if none of them were strong.
> > Choose one discipline, then do your comparison on utility versus focus,
> > otherwise your analysis has no validity.
>
> I'm not claiming other disciplines have greater utility. You guys have
> convinced me that they don't (although dominate has +bleed and bounce,
> which rocks). I'm just talking about building a deck that wins games.
> To do that you need to get +x whatever, where x > 1. Abo gives you +1.
> If people aren't prepared to deal with that, what are they doing?
Yes, but the fact is that it's not just one +1 action we're talking
here. We're talking a bunch of weenie gargoyles. Okay, so you block my
first gargoyle going in, maybe the second one. Then the next? And the
one after that?
Is your stealth deck going to block my gargoyles preying upon you?
Nothing says that you playing a stealth bleed deck means you're going
to automatically be my predator. Where's the needed intercept? Going to
use those Majesties, or take the 2 damage, possibly aggravated?
Preying on me with your intercept deck? Where's the stealth to get by
my +1 intercept, heck, even to get by my regular block? Going to use
your precious combat on a weenie gargoyle blocking you?
The fact comes down to, even with focused decks, you just don't know
who you're going to face, and with what kind of decks you'll play
against. Sure, your stealth bleed owns my toolbox ... oh, unless my
Tremere decides to deflect you. Thanks for pumping up the stealth to
get by my +1 or 2 intercept. Your intercept decks owns my stealth, but
at least I have a chance to hurt you for catching me, and thanks for
tapping so that my other 2-3 minions can bleed you.
> > Or do you mean that
> > only one card is hard to overcome a deck with multiple sources of
> > intercept?
>
> That is also true. 1 static intercept and even a small number of wake
> effects will ruin you completely.
As it would any deck without any stealth in it, or just a smattering of
stealth like ... oh, I don't know ... like your intercept deck. But if
you're wasting your time blocking everything I do as your predator,
your prey is having a field day going to town.
> > As discussed in the additional strength area, you can get fairly
> > reliable damage for 3 or 4. Certainly no worse than a weenie Potence
> > concept. And even without that, 2 agg is nothing to dismiss, coming
> > from a 2 capacity minion.
>
> 2 agg doesn't scare me at all when it requires 2 cards or more to play,
> especially when the deck is littered with a smattering of +1 xyz that
> take up space to minimal effects. All I have to do is play 1 combat
> card--just about any 1 combat card--and I'm safe. 2 agg can be
> dismissed, *especially* when it comes from a 2 cap, because that 2 cap
> is getting pounded into the ground the first time something goes wrong.
>
> I just dismissed 2 agg. Impress me with something better.
Really? Just about any 1 combat card? Wow, Torn Signpost negates my 2
agg? Sure, you punch me down too, but you'll need to prevent somehow
... so now you're using 2 cards against my 2 cards.
And the thing is ... I probably don't care about my weenie, especially
if I'm putting your 10 cap into torpor. (and the Create Gargoyle
becomes a 3 capacity vampire, they gain for the discipline put on
them).
> > This is very true, except against some Caitiff or Embrace deck, I
> > suppose, but hardly something to rely upon.
>
> Again. "If my prey does nothing or does only things I have foils for I
> am bound to win". That isn't the game I play. I'm sad for your
> playgroup if it's the game you play.
Not sure what was meant here, I was actually agreeing with your
assessment of DC: Throat, it is a poor card for such a deck concept.
Not totally unplayable, but pretty cornercase to make it just wasted
filler in the deck. In about 3-4 years of play, I've seen one deck that
it would have actually been effective against.
> > > > This does not strike me as a sucky discipline at the inferior level. I
> > > > realize D-C: Hands is redundant on gargoyles,
>
> yes, that's true. it is redundant on Gargoyles, but more importantly
> it sucks. Wolf Claws and similar also suck, and they are much better.
Wow ... never play aggravated damage with the Gangrel then? I don't
think I've ever heard anyone ever call Wolf Claws/Claws of the Dead
'sucky'. It seems like your opinion of aggravated damage is that it's
only good if you do 10 points of damage with it, and at no cost to your
vampire. I suppose this means you never use Ivory Bow or the various
flamethrowers either? If you're going by permanent as good, then all
your Obfuscate stealth and Auspex intercept is pretty sucky too
(especially those that cost blood to play).
> >>>and D-C: Throat isn't too
> > > > great on weenies.
>
> No. It's absolutely unplayable by weenies. Unless you're specifically
> metagaming against a 1 cap wall deck you'd be an idiot to put it in the
> deck.
No argument from me. I doubt that these gargoyles fear 1 or 2 caps
anyway.
> >But you're getting a lot of options with that skill
> > > > card.
>
> I just don't care. Pick some things to do and do them well. Doing
> everything just a little bit isn't winning you any games, except
> against morons.
Not 100% true, but true enough that if you are totally unfocused and
just threw a bunch of cards into your deck because you could, you're
not likely to win anything.
Personally, when I tool-box, I prefer sort of a hybrid. Mostly focus on
one thing, but stuff in enough to cover your bases. My favourite at the
moment is going mainly stealth-bleed with Kiasyd, but putting in
intercept/bleed reduction and some combat as well. Sure, it's nice to
just end combat, but sometimes it'll pay off to hit your opponent with
Earth Swords to send them to torpor and take the hit back.
> > The Abombwe is not being used in a vacuum. If the strategy is to create
> > Gargoyles and give them Abombwe, then of course you'll be using
> > Visceratika and Flight cards to supplement that. Hence, there is no
> > absence of reinforcement cards.
>
> Neither basic vis (or even VIS for that matter) nor Flight is very
> good. Rockheart is iffy, and conditional. Stonestrength is weak at
> basic. Most of the other VIS cards cost blood, which your 2 caps just
> don't have. Flight is really only good for Pounce, Roll, and Patrol.
> Roll is great. I'll give you that. Pounce is also good, but less so
> without Grapple due to the dodge problem. And if you're playing
> Pounce you don't much need Invoking, except to try to combo them, which
> is a fool's errand in the unfocused toolbox deck you guys are
> proposing. 1 intercept each from Predator's Communion and Patrol =
> ineffeciency R us.
What's iffy or conditional about Rockheart? It's a damage prevent card.
If you're taking damage, you can use it. If you're not taking damage,
then you don't need to use it. True, it's no Skin of Steel, but then
doesn't cost anything either, which for a weenie is a boon.
Stonestrength has some utility, and can be used for a press or a bit of
damage prevention. But again, they're weenies. If you're going to fight
with them, of course you're expecting them to get smashed. The idea is
to do some damage back.
I agree that the basic discussion has been unfocused, but I see it
being more a discussion of what's overall possible for an Abombwe
Gargoyle deck, not an effort to find a way to use all the Abombwe cards
in one deck.
As for the intercept angle. +1 intercept from Predator's Communion, +1
intercept from Patrol, +1 intercept from Razor Bats, +1 intercept from
Mr. Winthrop/Sports Bike, +1 intercept from an intercept location, +1
intercept from Atonement (expensive, but doable), +2 vs. D actions from
Defender of the Haven ... Agreed that I'd not likely put all that into
a deck, but some Razor Bats, Defender of the Haven and an intercept
location is certainly not out of order for any deck with Gargoyles in
it.
> > Second, there are decks out there that have little or no intercept. I
> > have a very successful Ishtarri Vote/Bleed deck that rarely attempts to
> > block anything, and even if I do try, I have no intercept beyond a
> > couple of Telepathic Misdirections (for bounce, rather than intercept).
> > +1 stealth gets by me nice and easy. I survive by bloating and ousting
> > quickly.
>
> Sure. There are decks with no intercept that you will get by. They
> are probably the exception rather than the norm. But those decks don't
> much care about the 2 bleeds you're sending at them, because as you
> say, they bloat. If they don't have intercept, and they can't bloat
> enough to deal with occasional bleeds for 2 from a deck that tries too
> hard to do everything badly, then that deck sucks. I can't resist
> coming back to this theme.
Sure, one or two bleeds for 2, though it hurts, isn't seriously
threatening my bloat deck. But 3 bleeds? 4? Every turn? Nevermind the
Tremere who's just as likely to powerbleed me as well. And again, it's
not a vacuum. Tasha Morgan/J.S. Simmons, Laptop, Pentex Loves You (if
using !Tremere), etc. How about 2-3 Gargoyles bleeding for 3 each now?
Again, I totally agree that without any sort of focus, this type of
deck (heck, any deck) isn't going anywhere. But with a direction and an
idea of what you want to achieve, toolboxes can be very strong and
resilient decks.
> > +1 intercept is strong. Are you saying that it's pointless to play with
> > Carlton van Wyck unless you have multiple sources of +intercept for
> > him?
>
> Carlton has +1 ****permanent**** intercept.
And dies to my press for blocking my little Gargoyle. Hence why having
some combat in the tool-box deck is a good idea. Carlton and Unmasking
blocks most political decks. What are your S:CEs going to do you then?
> > 2 damage is not a lot, true. But an additional strike makes that 4.
> > Press and additional strike makes that 8.
>
> Wow. You just played 2 combat cards to do 4 damage. That's awesome.
> What!? You can play 3 more cards and do it again! It's a good thing
> you keep drawing exactly the cards you need, and it's great for you
> that I strike for 0.
Wow, I'd love to see your weenies do 4 damage with just one card all
the time (beyond giving them an Assault Rifle). And it requires 2
cards, not 3, to do again (the +1 hand damage lasts the combat).
But yes, you're right in that I'm not likely to have all the cards I
need to pull it off most of the time. But if you're pitting this deck
idea against ideal decks that foil it, then why can't I have the ideal
hand from time to time?
> >Unless your opponent is
> > preventing, ending combat or has a combat deck themselves, that will
> > hurt.
>
> In other words, the plan works great when your opponents do nothing.
> Awesome plan.
No, but you seem to be allowing the opponent to always have the perfect
hand without granting me the same privelege. Sure, a deck that S:CEs
will get out of most combats, but they'll run out of those at some
point, or just happen to not have one in hand. Are you going to block
all my 2 bleeds and Majesty out of each combat? Hope your prey doesn't
catch you then.
> > And how does basic Abombwe not lead to giving anything to a toolbox
> > deck? It gives +1 to all the basics in the game, stealth, bleed,
> > intercept and strength. None of your selected disciplines gives all
> > that.
>
> A little bit of everything will always lose to a lot of something.
Oh really? So my smattering of intercept is beaten by your pure
intercept wall deck how? My little bit of stealth is beaten by your
pure combat deck how?
I'm assuming you mean that a little bit of one thing always loses to a
lot of it's counter. Umm ... yes, how could I not agree?
But again, it's not working in a vaccum, and it's not just you that
your opponent has to concern themselves with. If your intercept wall is
blocking me as a predator, what's it doing to it's prey? You're not
likely to have a lot of bleed, but have some combat. Your stealth-bleed
prey won't care, as they are probably bloating enough to fend off your
bleeds, and you're spending your intercept blocking all my minions.
Your combat prey is just salivating at the hope you'll block. Youre
intercept prey likewise doesn't care about your intercept, or is busy
blocking your ways of getting intercept before you even set up, as
you're not likely to have tons of stealth.
> > Though after all this, I'm not really advocating going Abombwe with
> > Tremere/Gargoyles, but it's certainly a valid option. Personally, I
> > would go with disciplines that complement the crypt vampires I'm using,
> > to better utilize the other cards I would have for my vampires already.
>
> Yeah. There's the whole other problem of actually getting your
> gargoyles with abombwe into play, and figuring out something to do with
> your Tremere who now share nothing in common with their kids. Good
> luck building even the most barely functional of decks. Seriously,
> you'll need it.
Umm, this is the case with most Tremere/Gargoyle decks in general. The
two clans don't share disciplines to begin with, but most crypt
Gargoyles rely on you to play Tremere. If someone actually goes the
Abombwe angle, then they'll be focusing on the Gargoyles, and so your
Tremere are there to recruit, and probably to deflect/bleed. Also note
that virtually all Visceratika cards have Thaumaturgy as the outferior,
so can be played by most of your Tremere if needed. Tacking on Abombwe
to such a deck is certainly interesting, but does add an extra level of
complexity to the whole shaky deal to begin with.
But I'm not saying this is a tounament winning, tier one concept, not
by a long-shot. But it's certainly a creative and fun idea, and
something I'd much rather see on my casual nights than seeing yet
another uber-stealth/bleed deck.
I don't know, it's seeming like you have this perfect deck that has
tons of intercept, stealth, bleed and combat that isn't tool-boxy, and
totally outclasses any tool-box deck. Granted, a totally focused deck
could really put a stop to this deck working, but only if the set-up
brings that about. An intercept prey (even predator) could mean most of
my stuff doesn't happen. A power bleed/stealth predator will most
likely kill me (as it would most decks). But then, an intercept
predator means I'm not so worried about bleeds coming my way. A stealth
prey I can most likely hit with virtual impunity.
In the end, no deck totally beats every other deck out there. And no
deck is perfect in it's execution. Bad crypt draws, bad hand draws,
hand jam, etc. can all bring a focused deck to a sudden halt. It can
happen to a tool-box deck too, but then you're just as likely to get
things you can do. If your focused deck is stuck, it's a lot more
difficult to get out of it.
Chris, Thrall of Arika
XZealot
How is Muaziz with the codex of the damned anything but playable? Hell
with that you could arm an army of Gargoyles with whatever skill cards
float your boat. It's downright scary.
Are you open to any new concepts? Where do you draw the line between
innovative and unplayable?
CthuluKitty
XZealot wrote:
> CthuluKitty wrote:
> > > > Yah know, taking Norm's suggestion under the wing, Muzzie with Pulse is
> > > > beautiful. And she does the mozambique allure thing, and then the
> > > > little goyles can all get ABO.... And as she has for, add one or two
> > > > For masters so she can go freaking . bleed, untap, (for zero due to
> > > > ankara) make a weenie, untap, burn a vamp with eldest command undeath,
> > > > untap, restoration. Ew. with weenie bleed
> > >
> > > Don't forget to make muaziz magic up a codex of the damned, with all
> > > the munching she can do your creata-gargs can get ABO pretty easily :)
> >
> >
> > Seriously guys. These have got to be some of the most unplayable ideas
> > I have ever seen.
>
> How is Muaziz with the codex of the damned anything but playable? Hell
> with that you could arm an army of Gargoyles with whatever skill cards
> float your boat. It's downright scary.
I was responding to the whole set of ideas those 2 guys were talking
about. Not just the last one. It sounded like they were talking about
a deck where Muaziz gets super Auspex, tools up with Pulse, becomes
Laibon, makes Gargoyles, equips the Codex, commits diablery, and calls
Eldest Command Undeath. That's simply unplayable. Some funky thing
with Muaziz and the Codex could be viable on some level. Tossing 400
fringe concepts into one deck is probably not.
> Are you open to any new concepts? Where do you draw the line between
> innovative and unplayable?
I'm absolutely open to new concepts. I suppose I draw the line when I
look at a concept and just can't see how it will ever even get off the
ground. If a deck requires a huge string of moving parts to come into
place before it even starts to do its thing (whatever that thing is),
then there's a very good chance it will be stopped before that even
happens.
CthuluKitty
> that I wouldn't just being playing Abombwe and shoving in every Abombwe
> card into the deck. (What the ... how did I get to be advocating a deck
> concept I would never play myself??? Oh well, the fun of discussing
> ideas!)
Umm. You do realize it's hard to discuss much of anything if you don't
actually think that what you're saying is true.
> At any rate, it basically comes down to this being a weenie deck
> concept. As with any toolbox type deck, it's not going to be strong in
> any one thing, but will attempt to be okay at everything. Yes, you're
> not going to outcompete a focused deck that counters a part of your
> tool-box. Wall decks will totally own your stealthing. Stealth
> predators won't worry about your intercept. Combat decks will make you
> paste.
It's not a weenie deck concept so much as a breeder deck concept. I
think the difference is worth noting. More on that later.
My point isn't that toolbox decks are bad. It's that the particular
idea under discussion just isn't going to be good enough at any of the
things it tries to do to accomplish much. I referred earlier to card
for card efficiency. By that I mean that, for example, Enhanced Senses
gives 2 intercept vs. only 1 from Predator's Communion. That seemingly
small difference matters a lot when you're trying to do a bunch of
different things.
> Yes, but the fact is that it's not just one +1 action we're talking
> here. We're talking a bunch of weenie gargoyles. Okay, so you block my
> first gargoyle going in, maybe the second one. Then the next? And the
> one after that?
This deck is going to get out 4 Gargoyles? Reliably? I mean, I'll
beleive it when I see it, but pool cost, intercept, and removal of your
Tremere are factors that are going to add up.
> Is your stealth deck going to block my gargoyles preying upon you?
> Nothing says that you playing a stealth bleed deck means you're going
> to automatically be my predator. Where's the needed intercept? Going to
> use those Majesties, or take the 2 damage, possibly aggravated?
If I'm playing SCE I'll wait to use until you've played your extremely
obvious prerange effects. Not a big deal really.
> Preying on me with your intercept deck? Where's the stealth to get by
> my +1 intercept, heck, even to get by my regular block? Going to use
> your precious combat on a weenie gargoyle blocking you?
Intercept decks don't win by getting past their prey with stealth.
They win by choking them to death by denying key actions, like, say
Create Gargoyle. I'd actually imagine that an intercept deck would be
just about the worst predator such a deck could have.
> As it would any deck without any stealth in it, or just a smattering of
> stealth like ... oh, I don't know ... like your intercept deck. But if
> you're wasting your time blocking everything I do as your predator,
> your prey is having a field day going to town.
Who has to block all of your actions? The individual payload is small
enough that some of them can be allowed to slip through. Most decks
rely on either combat or stealth as a delivery system. Neither the
limited intercept nor the limited combat available to a deck of this
nature will be able to deal with either of its counters.
> Really? Just about any 1 combat card? Wow, Torn Signpost negates my 2
> agg? Sure, you punch me down too, but you'll need to prevent somehow
> ... so now you're using 2 cards against my 2 cards.
Hitback is going to be a problem for any deck with small minions, so
yeah potence is going to hurt. If someone does play 2 cards to both
prevent avoid and hose your minion then they've come up ahead a minion
and even on cards. I can think of lots of reasonable ways to do this.
> And the thing is ... I probably don't care about my weenie, especially
> if I'm putting your 10 cap into torpor. (and the Create Gargoyle
> becomes a 3 capacity vampire, they gain for the discipline put on
> them).
If a Create Gargoyle is sending a 10 cap torpor then I'm worried. How
on earth would anyone allow that to happen? I think you're also
underestimating the cost of Create Gargoyle. On the surface it looks
like 2 pool, but in reality you're investing a big chunk of deck space
and infrastructure the little buggers. Granted they still don't come
out to anything like 10 capacity vampire, but I'd estimate their
approximate pool cost at somwhere between 4 and 5. Granted that's a
tough line to argue.
> Not sure what was meant here, I was actually agreeing with your
> assessment of DC: Throat, it is a poor card for such a deck concept.
> Not totally unplayable, but pretty cornercase to make it just wasted
> filler in the deck. In about 3-4 years of play, I've seen one deck that
> it would have actually been effective against.
Our only difference here is in emphasis. You're saying it's not very
good; I'm saying it's terrible.
> Wow ... never play aggravated damage with the Gangrel then? I don't
> think I've ever heard anyone ever call Wolf Claws/Claws of the Dead
> 'sucky'.
I know lots of players who would tell you that those cards suck,
especially those who have played Gangrel a lot.
>It seems like your opinion of aggravated damage is that it's
> only good if you do 10 points of damage with it, and at no cost to your
> vampire.
Nah. I'm generally happy to do 3-5 at no cost, which is easy for
Gargoyles to do. Even then, it's probably not worth expending the
cards if you can't do it under Immortal Grapple.
>I suppose this means you never use Ivory Bow or the various
> flamethrowers either? If you're going by permanent as good, then all
> your Obfuscate stealth and Auspex intercept is pretty sucky too
> (especially those that cost blood to play).
Permanent is good. How are obfuscate and auspex transients bad
exactly? Keep in mind my problem with weenie abo isn't that the cards
suck. It's that you often need more than 1 extra stealth or more than
1 extra intercept to even bother trying to act or block. Other
disciplines give you that. Abo does not.
> Not 100% true, but true enough that if you are totally unfocused and
> just threw a bunch of cards into your deck because you could, you're
> not likely to win anything.
That's exactly what it sounded like people wanted to do. All I've seen
argued for is "look how many different things I get +1 on" without much
of a semblance how those effects actually work together to accomplish
something.
> Personally, when I tool-box, I prefer sort of a hybrid. Mostly focus on
> one thing, but stuff in enough to cover your bases. My favourite at the
> moment is going mainly stealth-bleed with Kiasyd, but putting in
> intercept/bleed reduction and some combat as well. Sure, it's nice to
> just end combat, but sometimes it'll pay off to hit your opponent with
> Earth Swords to send them to torpor and take the hit back.
Sure. That's how decent toolbox decks work. Notice the differences
there though. Your Kiasyd have multiple disciplines at superior, which
increases the per card efficiency dramatically. Earthswords for 3R at
choose strike is miles better than Invoking at basic as toolboxy
hitback, for example.
> What's iffy or conditional about Rockheart? It's a damage prevent card.
> If you're taking damage, you can use it. If you're not taking damage,
> then you don't need to use it. True, it's no Skin of Steel, but then
> doesn't cost anything either, which for a weenie is a boon.
It only prevents half the damage, and it only prevents damage from
strikes. It's not a bad card per se, but it is pretty much outclassed
by most other damage prevention in the game.
> Stonestrength has some utility, and can be used for a press or a bit of
> damage prevention. But again, they're weenies. If you're going to fight
> with them, of course you're expecting them to get smashed. The idea is
> to do some damage back.
Stonestrength is excellent at superior. At inferior you're just
dealing with per card inefficiency again.
> As for the intercept angle. +1 intercept from Predator's Communion, +1
> intercept from Patrol, +1 intercept from Razor Bats, +1 intercept from
> Mr. Winthrop/Sports Bike, +1 intercept from an intercept location, +1
> intercept from Atonement (expensive, but doable), +2 vs. D actions from
> Defender of the Haven ... Agreed that I'd not likely put all that into
> a deck, but some Razor Bats, Defender of the Haven and an intercept
> location is certainly not out of order for any deck with Gargoyles in
> it.
Would you serioulsy invest those kinds of permanents on a created
Gargoyle? I wouldn't. Razor Bat seems natural to include in Gargoyle
decks, until you start dealing with the pool cost and the ease with
which it can be killed. I've taken all the Razor Bats out of my
current slave Gargoyle deck.
> Umm, this is the case with most Tremere/Gargoyle decks in general.
The
> two clans don't share disciplines to begin with, but most crypt
> Gargoyles rely on you to play Tremere. If someone actually goes the
> Abombwe angle, then they'll be focusing on the Gargoyles, and so your
> Tremere are there to recruit, and probably to deflect/bleed. Also note
> that virtually all Visceratika cards have Thaumaturgy as the outferior,
> so can be played by most of your Tremere if needed. Tacking on Abombwe
> to such a deck is certainly interesting, but does add an extra level of
> complexity to the whole shaky deal to begin with.
Viable Tremere/Gargoyle decks can certainly be built. I don't think
anyone is going to win a major championship with one anytime soon, but
small local tournaments have been and can be won by such decks. You'd
be amazed though how seldom you'll use those tha outferiors. The best
Tremere for Gargoyle decks are Mustafa and Kyoko, and they don't even
have tha (Muaziz is also good, and does have THA). As with the Create
decks, all the Tremere tend to do with Gargoyles is bleed and deflect.
Trying to do more with them just leads to lack of focus.
XZealot
CthuluKitty wrote:
> XZealot wrote:
> > CthuluKitty wrote:
> > > > > Yah know, taking Norm's suggestion under the wing, Muzzie with Pulse is
> > > > > beautiful. And she does the mozambique allure thing, and then the
> > > > > little goyles can all get ABO.... And as she has for, add one or two
> > > > > For masters so she can go freaking . bleed, untap, (for zero due to
> > > > > ankara) make a weenie, untap, burn a vamp with eldest command undeath,
> > > > > untap, restoration. Ew. with weenie bleed
> > > >
> > > > Don't forget to make muaziz magic up a codex of the damned, with all
> > > > the munching she can do your creata-gargs can get ABO pretty easily :)
> > >
> > >
> > > Seriously guys. These have got to be some of the most unplayable ideas
> > > I have ever seen.
> >
> > How is Muaziz with the codex of the damned anything but playable? Hell
> > with that you could arm an army of Gargoyles with whatever skill cards
> > float your boat. It's downright scary.
>
> I was responding to the whole set of ideas those 2 guys were talking
> about. Not just the last one. It sounded like they were talking about
> a deck where Muaziz gets super Auspex, tools up with Pulse, becomes
> Laibon, makes Gargoyles, equips the Codex, commits diablery, and calls
> Eldest Command Undeath. That's simply unplayable. Some funky thing
> with Muaziz and the Codex could be viable on some level. Tossing 400
> fringe concepts into one deck is probably not.
>
If you are talking about the Eldest Commands a Bunch of Flying Monkeys
deck, then that was my deck concept. Let's talk about it in that
thread. OK?
Thrall of Arika
CthuluKitty wrote:
> > No, but then again, no card is played in a vacuum. And I should state
> > that I wouldn't just being playing Abombwe and shoving in every Abombwe
> > card into the deck. (What the ... how did I get to be advocating a deck
> > concept I would never play myself??? Oh well, the fun of discussing
> > ideas!)
>
> Umm. You do realize it's hard to discuss much of anything if you don't
> actually think that what you're saying is true.
I didn't say that I didn't think the concept was unworkable, I just
stated that it's not a concept I would play myself. I like tool-box
decks myself a lot of the time, and while this seems like it could be a
fun concept for someone to try, it's just not my cup of tea. I have
trouble enough making tool-box decks and working within the bounds of
the clan disciplines, never mind tacking on another one. But even
though it's not something I would play, I think I could still discuss
the merits of various cards.
> > At any rate, it basically comes down to this being a weenie deck
> > concept. As with any toolbox type deck, it's not going to be strong in
> > any one thing, but will attempt to be okay at everything. Yes, you're
> > not going to outcompete a focused deck that counters a part of your
> > tool-box. Wall decks will totally own your stealthing. Stealth
> > predators won't worry about your intercept. Combat decks will make you
> > paste.
>
> It's not a weenie deck concept so much as a breeder deck concept. I
> think the difference is worth noting. More on that later.
>
> My point isn't that toolbox decks are bad. It's that the particular
> idea under discussion just isn't going to be good enough at any of the
> things it tries to do to accomplish much. I referred earlier to card
> for card efficiency. By that I mean that, for example, Enhanced Senses
> gives 2 intercept vs. only 1 from Predator's Communion. That seemingly
> small difference matters a lot when you're trying to do a bunch of
> different things.
I certainly agree there. But you're comparing a superior to a basic. At
basic level, Enhanced Senses gives the same +1 intercept. And
certainly, if I was going for an intercepting tool-box, I would most
likely graft on Auspex, especially since I'd be using Tremere in the
first place.
But that the option is there with Abombwe makes it better than say
attempting the deck with Fortitude instead, and wishing for a little
bit more intercept.
> > Yes, but the fact is that it's not just one +1 action we're talking
> > here. We're talking a bunch of weenie gargoyles. Okay, so you block my
> > first gargoyle going in, maybe the second one. Then the next? And the
> > one after that?
>
> This deck is going to get out 4 Gargoyles? Reliably? I mean, I'll
> beleive it when I see it, but pool cost, intercept, and removal of your
> Tremere are factors that are going to add up.
I couldn't say, depends on the build and the environment. If there's an
intercepting predator or prey, then no, it's probably not. But then,
there's Muaziz and Rebekkah, the new Mirror Walk, Creepshow Casino,
Stealth Ritus for !Tremere ... not perfect, of course, but enough to
get around casual intercept. And any deck that's trying this concept
had better make provisions for getting the Create Gargoyles out in the
first place.
> > Preying on me with your intercept deck? Where's the stealth to get by
> > my +1 intercept, heck, even to get by my regular block? Going to use
> > your precious combat on a weenie gargoyle blocking you?
>
> Intercept decks don't win by getting past their prey with stealth.
> They win by choking them to death by denying key actions, like, say
> Create Gargoyle. I'd actually imagine that an intercept deck would be
> just about the worst predator such a deck could have.
Yep, I fully agree. The Tremere aren't known for their stealth, and
focusing on the Abombwe angle will severely weaken any Tremere combat,
I'm sure.
> > And the thing is ... I probably don't care about my weenie, especially
> > if I'm putting your 10 cap into torpor. (and the Create Gargoyle
> > becomes a 3 capacity vampire, they gain for the discipline put on
> > them).
>
> If a Create Gargoyle is sending a 10 cap torpor then I'm worried. How
> on earth would anyone allow that to happen? I think you're also
> underestimating the cost of Create Gargoyle. On the surface it looks
> like 2 pool, but in reality you're investing a big chunk of deck space
> and infrastructure the little buggers. Granted they still don't come
> out to anything like 10 capacity vampire, but I'd estimate their
> approximate pool cost at somwhere between 4 and 5. Granted that's a
> tough line to argue.
Well, I suppose I did exaggerate a little, but it's still not
unforeseeable, just unlikely.
Yes, there is a big investment in cards for them, because that's the
deck concept. It's not adding a couple of Create Gargoyles with some
Abombwe thrown in, it's the entire deck concept. So I'm not sure
there's 'wasted' space on infrastructure. But yes, even though they
cost only 2 pool for a 3 cap, there's also a blood cost, shifting blood
from the acting vampire to the new gargoyle.
> > Not sure what was meant here, I was actually agreeing with your
> > assessment of DC: Throat, it is a poor card for such a deck concept.
> > Not totally unplayable, but pretty cornercase to make it just wasted
> > filler in the deck. In about 3-4 years of play, I've seen one deck that
> > it would have actually been effective against.
>
> Our only difference here is in emphasis. You're saying it's not very
> good; I'm saying it's terrible.
No, Phantom Speaker (a similar block fails if a younger vampire for
Melponimee) is not very good, even in a regular Daughter deck,
nevermind with Embraces. I'm fully with you on this, it's a terrible
card for this deck concept, and anyone throwing this in has wasted card
slots.
> >It seems like your opinion of aggravated damage is that it's
> > only good if you do 10 points of damage with it, and at no cost to your
> > vampire.
>
> Nah. I'm generally happy to do 3-5 at no cost, which is easy for
> Gargoyles to do. Even then, it's probably not worth expending the
> cards if you can't do it under Immortal Grapple.
Agreed, I have a Gargoyle deck that can become pretty nasty if allowed
to build up a bit. The lack of Potence with the Create Gargoyle's does
severely hamper them. Doesn't make their combat unusable, but if you're
telegraphing your moves, it makes the decisions for your opponents a
whole lot easier.
> >I suppose this means you never use Ivory Bow or the various
> > flamethrowers either? If you're going by permanent as good, then all
> > your Obfuscate stealth and Auspex intercept is pretty sucky too
> > (especially those that cost blood to play).
>
> Permanent is good. How are obfuscate and auspex transients bad
> exactly? Keep in mind my problem with weenie abo isn't that the cards
> suck. It's that you often need more than 1 extra stealth or more than
> 1 extra intercept to even bother trying to act or block. Other
> disciplines give you that. Abo does not.
On it's own, no, it doesn't. But by the same token, Auspex only gives
you intercept, no + stealth, and vice versa with Obfuscate. If you want
more, you have to turn to another disciplince, just as the basic abo
user will have to do.
> > Personally, when I tool-box, I prefer sort of a hybrid. Mostly focus on
> > one thing, but stuff in enough to cover your bases. My favourite at the
> > moment is going mainly stealth-bleed with Kiasyd, but putting in
> > intercept/bleed reduction and some combat as well. Sure, it's nice to
> > just end combat, but sometimes it'll pay off to hit your opponent with
> > Earth Swords to send them to torpor and take the hit back.
>
> Sure. That's how decent toolbox decks work. Notice the differences
> there though. Your Kiasyd have multiple disciplines at superior, which
> increases the per card efficiency dramatically. Earthswords for 3R at
> choose strike is miles better than Invoking at basic as toolboxy
> hitback, for example.
Of course, which funnily enough, is why I've played more Kiasyd decks
than I have Create Gargoyle decks.
> > As for the intercept angle. +1 intercept from Predator's Communion, +1
> > intercept from Patrol, +1 intercept from Razor Bats, +1 intercept from
> > Mr. Winthrop/Sports Bike, +1 intercept from an intercept location, +1
> > intercept from Atonement (expensive, but doable), +2 vs. D actions from
> > Defender of the Haven ... Agreed that I'd not likely put all that into
> > a deck, but some Razor Bats, Defender of the Haven and an intercept
> > location is certainly not out of order for any deck with Gargoyles in
> > it.
>
> Would you serioulsy invest those kinds of permanents on a created
> Gargoyle? I wouldn't. Razor Bat seems natural to include in Gargoyle
> decks, until you start dealing with the pool cost and the ease with
> which it can be killed. I've taken all the Razor Bats out of my
> current slave Gargoyle deck.
Hard to say. I probably would use Razor Bats, yes. If I was terribly
worried about pool costs, there's always Soul of the Earth. For a true
Gargoyle deck, most definitely play with them. It was quite fun having
Ublo-Satha out with a Razor Bats, Defender of the Haven and Armor of
Terra. My opponents wouldn't let me have the extra fun of Inscribing a
Blood to Water to him though, which I thought was a crying shame.
> > Umm, this is the case with most Tremere/Gargoyle decks in general.
> The
> > two clans don't share disciplines to begin with, but most crypt
> > Gargoyles rely on you to play Tremere. If someone actually goes the
> > Abombwe angle, then they'll be focusing on the Gargoyles, and so your
> > Tremere are there to recruit, and probably to deflect/bleed. Also note
> > that virtually all Visceratika cards have Thaumaturgy as the outferior,
> > so can be played by most of your Tremere if needed. Tacking on Abombwe
> > to such a deck is certainly interesting, but does add an extra level of
> > complexity to the whole shaky deal to begin with.
>
> Viable Tremere/Gargoyle decks can certainly be built. I don't think
> anyone is going to win a major championship with one anytime soon, but
> small local tournaments have been and can be won by such decks. You'd
> be amazed though how seldom you'll use those tha outferiors. The best
> Tremere for Gargoyle decks are Mustafa and Kyoko, and they don't even
> have tha (Muaziz is also good, and does have THA). As with the Create
> decks, all the Tremere tend to do with Gargoyles is bleed and deflect.
> Trying to do more with them just leads to lack of focus.
I think I can honestly say I have never actually used the outferiors
with a Gargoyle deck, but was just stating that the option is there,
should the need arise. Very few outferiors I find worth actually using
(but then there are cards like Nose of the Hound!). Muaziz is my
current fave in such deck, as +1 stealth goes a long way to tooling up
my Gargoyles.
So I think we can pretty much agree to the fact that Abombwe using
Created Gargoyles is probably not the new deck to beat out there. I
still say it has some options that could make things interesting, and
if built effectively, could probably make for a fun deck to see in a
casual game. Really, the true shame of it is that you can't place an
Abombwe master on a vampire with just basic Abombwe, which strikes me
as odd, especially given the Protean exception.
Chris, Thrall of Arika