Double Discipline cards Q

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Garou

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Dec 15, 2001, 5:54:44 AM12/15/01
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Q: if in a card there is an option that have two disciplines in it , like
"Read the Winds" (ANI/AUS) the vamp that use it need to have the 2
disciplines to use it, or only 1?
Is needed 2 disciplines to use the card? for exemple Wendy Wade can use it
but Vliam Andor not in inferior.

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Rpst asap thx ;-)


Sascha Neumayr

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Dec 15, 2001, 6:34:34 AM12/15/01
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"Garou" <ga...@wanadoo.es> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:9vf9lk$157$1...@news.wanadoo.es...

> Q: if in a card there is an option that have two disciplines in it , like
> "Read the Winds" (ANI/AUS) the vamp that use it need to have the 2
> disciplines to use it, or only 1?

as by card text


Garou

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Dec 15, 2001, 7:49:37 AM12/15/01
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At the card text doens't say that the vamp needs the 2 disciplines to play
the card.
I mean if between the 2 disciplines ara a " and" or "or" : "ANI and AUS" ,
or "ANI or AUS" to play it.
Sorry for my bad englihs.

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"Sascha Neumayr" <sascha....@gmx.net> escribió en el mensaje
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LSJ

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Dec 15, 2001, 7:58:32 AM12/15/01
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Please don't put your reply above the text to which you're replying.
It makes it difficult to follow the conversation.

The effect requires whichever icon(s) are printed in front of the effect.
If the effect lists one icon, then only that discipline is required
(and at the level indicated).
If the effect lists two icons, then those two disciplines are required
(and at the respective levels indicated).

--
LSJ
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Sorrow

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Dec 15, 2001, 10:07:46 AM12/15/01
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> If the effect lists two icons, then those two disciplines are required
> (and at the respective levels indicated).

I'm certain this is the case, but I just want to verify in case it ever
comes up:

If you have a card that requires <ani><aus>, a vamp that has ANI aus
can play it, yes?

Sorrow
---
If you're frightened of dying and... and you're holding on,
you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made
your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you
from the earth.


Jozxyqk

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Dec 15, 2001, 9:07:35 AM12/15/01
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> The effect requires whichever icon(s) are printed in front of the effect.
> If the effect lists one icon, then only that discipline is required
> (and at the level indicated).
> If the effect lists two icons, then those two disciplines are required
> (and at the respective levels indicated).

Can Ian Forestal "fake out" two disciplines at basic at the same time, for
purposes of playing, for example, the obf/cel card?

What about Infernal Familiar? Do you have to pay it just one investment
counter to play a multi-discipline card that requires two disciplines you
don't have? Or do you have to pay it two for that action?

Reyda

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Dec 15, 2001, 9:18:06 AM12/15/01
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"Sorrow" <cbo...@apdi.net> wrote in message
news:u1mivij...@corp.supernews.com...

> > If the effect lists two icons, then those two disciplines are required
> > (and at the respective levels indicated).
>
> I'm certain this is the case, but I just want to verify in case it ever
> comes up:
>
> If you have a card that requires <ani><aus>, a vamp that has ANI aus
> can play it, yes?

well, yes =)
the opposite would be seriously stupid !

Garou

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Dec 15, 2001, 12:40:36 PM12/15/01
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--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Rpst asap thx ;-)

"Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> escribió en el mensaje
news:9vfm3c$135$1...@neon.noos.net...


>
> "Sorrow" <cbo...@apdi.net> wrote in message
> news:u1mivij...@corp.supernews.com...
> > > If the effect lists two icons, then those two disciplines are required
> > > (and at the respective levels indicated).
> >
> > I'm certain this is the case, but I just want to verify in case it ever
> > comes up:
> >
> > If you have a card that requires <ani><aus>, a vamp that has ANI aus
> > can play it, yes?
>
> well, yes =)
> the opposite would be seriously stupid !


Well , but at how level? ANI aus -- > can play the sup level of the card ?
or he needs to have both disciplines at sup. ?
Vamp disci. : inf + inf = card option: inf
sup + inf = ???
sup + sup = sup


LSJ

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Dec 15, 2001, 3:12:08 PM12/15/01
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Jozxyqk wrote:
>
> > The effect requires whichever icon(s) are printed in front of the effect.
> > If the effect lists one icon, then only that discipline is required
> > (and at the level indicated).
> > If the effect lists two icons, then those two disciplines are required
> > (and at the respective levels indicated).
>
> Can Ian Forestal "fake out" two disciplines at basic at the same time, for
> purposes of playing, for example, the obf/cel card?

No. His special allows him to play a single-discipline effect as if he had
that discipline. He could not even play a chi/aus card (unless he gained
Chimerstry somehow).



> What about Infernal Familiar? Do you have to pay it just one investment
> counter to play a multi-discipline card that requires two disciplines you
> don't have? Or do you have to pay it two for that action?

Same story - singles only.

LSJ

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Dec 15, 2001, 3:12:56 PM12/15/01
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Sorrow wrote:
> If you have a card that requires <ani><aus>, a vamp that has ANI aus
> can play it, yes?

Yes. Having the superior *is* having the normal (plus some).

LSJ

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Dec 15, 2001, 3:14:12 PM12/15/01
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Garou wrote:
> Well , but at how level? ANI aus -- > can play the sup level of the card ?

What sup level?
You could play the ANI aus level, but not the ani AUS level or the ANI AUS
level.

("Sup level" isn't really appropriate for multi-discipline cards, you should
refer to the effects by the disciplines and levels required.)

James Coupe

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Dec 15, 2001, 3:07:05 PM12/15/01
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In message <HOIS7.17647$5W5.7...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net>, Jozxyqk

<jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> writes:
>Can Ian Forestal "fake out" two disciplines at basic at the same time, for
>purposes of playing, for example, the obf/cel card?

Given the use of the singular in his card text, I'd have to rule (were I
judging) that he couldn't.

>What about Infernal Familiar? Do you have to pay it just one investment
>counter to play a multi-discipline card that requires two disciplines you
>don't have? Or do you have to pay it two for that action?

They can only play it if it requires "a" discipline they do not have, by
card text.

I would, were I judging and this came up, rule that, say, a vampire with
Infernal Familiar and, say, dom/tha/aus trying to play an ani+aus card
could do it, but they couldn't play a for+obf (picking random
disciplines).

--
James Coupe PGP 0x5D623D5D It's been a long road, getting from there to here
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA213D7E It's been a long time, and my time is finally near
668C3695D623D5D I will see my dream come alive at last, I will touch the sky
And they're not gonna hold me down no more, no they're not gonna change my mind

James Coupe

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Dec 15, 2001, 9:11:09 PM12/15/01
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In message <9vg1ej$erj$1...@news.wanadoo.es>, Garou <ga...@wanadoo.es>
writes:

>Well , but at how level? ANI aus -- > can play the sup level of the card ?
>or he needs to have both disciplines at sup. ?

To play the <ANI> <AUS> version of the card, you need both ANI and AUS.

If you have ANI and aus, or ani and AUS, or ani and aus you could play
the <ani> <aus> version of the card.

James Coupe

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Dec 16, 2001, 6:25:12 AM12/16/01
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In message <3C1BAE98...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white-

wolf.com> writes:
>> What about Infernal Familiar? Do you have to pay it just one investment
>> counter to play a multi-discipline card that requires two disciplines you
>> don't have? Or do you have to pay it two for that action?
>
>Same story - singles only.

Can you clarify this?

Will Infernal Familiar work in a situation where the vampire knows one
of the required disciplines but not the other?

LSJ

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Dec 16, 2001, 8:15:33 AM12/16/01
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James Coupe wrote:
>
> In message <3C1BAE98...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white-
> wolf.com> writes:
> >> What about Infernal Familiar? Do you have to pay it just one investment
> >> counter to play a multi-discipline card that requires two disciplines you
> >> don't have? Or do you have to pay it two for that action?
> >
> >Same story - singles only.
>
> Can you clarify this?

Same as the Ian clarification (snipped from above).



> Will Infernal Familiar work in a situation where the vampire knows one
> of the required disciplines but not the other?

No.

James Coupe

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Dec 16, 2001, 8:20:55 AM12/16/01
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In message <3C1C9E75...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white-

wolf.com> writes:
>> Will Infernal Familiar work in a situation where the vampire knows one
>> of the required disciplines but not the other?
>
>No.

It does seem that the vampire would be attempting to play a card that
requires a discipline they do not have, however.

LSJ

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Dec 16, 2001, 3:08:27 PM12/16/01
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James Coupe wrote:
>
> In message <3C1C9E75...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white-
> wolf.com> writes:
> >> Will Infernal Familiar work in a situation where the vampire knows one
> >> of the required disciplines but not the other?
> >
> >No.
>
> It does seem that the vampire would be attempting to play a card that
> requires a discipline they do not have, however.

The card doesn't require "a" discipline.

James Coupe

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Dec 16, 2001, 8:54:04 PM12/16/01
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In message <3C1CFF3B...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white-

wolf.com> writes:
>> It does seem that the vampire would be attempting to play a card that
>> requires a discipline they do not have, however.
>
>The card doesn't require "a" discipline.

No, it requires "a Discipline he or she does not have".

LSJ

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Dec 17, 2001, 6:23:46 AM12/17/01
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James Coupe wrote:
>
> In message <3C1CFF3B...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white-
> wolf.com> writes:
> >> It does seem that the vampire would be attempting to play a card that
> >> requires a discipline they do not have, however.
> >
> >The card doesn't require "a" discipline.
>
> No, it requires "a Discipline he or she does not have".

It requires two disciplines, one of which he doesn't have.

James Coupe

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Dec 17, 2001, 8:49:21 AM12/17/01
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In message <3C1DD5C2...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white-

wolf.com> writes:
>> >The card doesn't require "a" discipline.
>>
>> No, it requires "a Discipline he or she does not have".
>
>It requires two disciplines, one of which he doesn't have.

Certainly; but Infernal Familiar, by card text, is only referring to the
discipline the vampire doesn't have.

It is not "When this vampire plays a card requiring a discipline..... If
they don't not have it..." It is "a Discipline he or she does not have"
as a full phrase. Other requirements are not referenced - only that the
card requires "a Discipline he or she does not have".

Does the card (in the situation of an "ani/aus" card where the Infernal
Familiar vampire only has "aus") require "a Discipline he or she does
not have"? I can only answer this as yes. The card requires Animalism,
which is a discipline they do not have. It also requires other things.

Also, by [LSJ 20011203], a Path of Paradox will reduce a CHI/AUS card.
But the card does not require "Chimerstry", it requires Chimerstry and
Auspex. Why can the text there - "cards that require Chimerstry" -
ignore the Auspex aspect, but analogous text here - "requires a
Discipline he or she does not have" - cannot also ignore the other
requirements?

Would a hypothetical card that required Animalism and the title of
Prince by playable by a Prince with Infernal Familiar?

It seems to me that the answer would be "yes" - since it "requires a
Discipline he or she does not have", and the requirements that the
vampire *does* fulfil are not referenced by card text.

Infernal Familiar does not reference, so far as I can tell, cards which
require "a Discipline" but a far more specific and qualified form - "a


Discipline he or she does not have".

--

LSJ

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Dec 17, 2001, 9:45:40 AM12/17/01
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Ah.
<White Flag>
I yield to your ironclad logic.

REVERSAL:
Infernal Familiar will supply a (single) missing Discipline (at normal) towards
the play of a card that requires multiple Disciplines.

James Coupe

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Dec 17, 2001, 12:06:56 PM12/17/01
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In message <3C1E0514...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white-

wolf.com> writes:
>Ah.
><White Flag>
>I yield to your ironclad logic.

Yay!


(Xian, I'd best get something good for help those wimpy Thaumaturgy
users, dagnamnit. Your DNA for human cloning acceptable.)

Xian

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Dec 17, 2001, 9:49:23 PM12/17/01
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James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<XHUBKLDw...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>...

> In message <3C1E0514...@white-wolf.com>, LSJ <vtesrep@white-
> wolf.com> writes:
> >Ah.
> ><White Flag>
> >I yield to your ironclad logic.
>
> Yay!

Good show, old chap!

> (Xian, I'd best get something good for help those wimpy Thaumaturgy
> users, dagnamnit. Your DNA for human cloning acceptable.)

Heh. Not that I use Infernal Pact/Ian Forrestal much...

Human cloning? I'm not sure what would happen if there were a mess of
me running around. It'd be trouble, that's for certain. Unless you
only meant to create one...of course then, you'd probably have trouble
keeping him in line. :)

ObV:tES - I *just* figured out that Engling Fury is worded the way it
is at superior not as reminder text, but for repeat-action
environments. Crazy. What will they come up with next? Clones,
probably.

Xian

Halcyan 2

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Dec 18, 2001, 3:29:56 AM12/18/01
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>> Certainly; but Infernal Familiar, by card text, is only referring to the
>> discipline the vampire doesn't have.

< snip Mr. Coupe's wonderful explanation >

>Ah.
><White Flag>
>I yield to your ironclad logic.
>
>REVERSAL:
>Infernal Familiar will supply a (single) missing Discipline (at normal)
>towards
>the play of a card that requires multiple Disciplines.

Hurrah! Nice job James! Go Infernal Familiar and Thaumaturgy! =)

Halcyan 2

James Coupe

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Dec 19, 2001, 5:27:14 PM12/19/01
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In message <dbc1153.01121...@posting.google.com>, Xian

<xb...@qwest.net> writes:
>Human cloning? I'm not sure what would happen if there were a mess of
>me running around. It'd be trouble, that's for certain.

I could sell off your cheek bones.

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