Two Necromancy Q's

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Madman2001

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Sep 24, 2001, 8:23:32 PM9/24/01
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Fellow Methusalehs:

These questions recently came up in the game.

=> Daemonic Possession says: " . . Move that [burned] minion from his
or her owner's ash heap to your ready region, put 1 blood or life from
the blood bank on the minon and tap the minion." Now, who can block
this action? The card does not mention that this is a "D" action, but
the rulebook says that a "D" action "targets another Methuselah (or
something controlled by another Methuselah". Therefore, since it
targets a card in a Methusaleh's ashheap, I would guess that it is a
"D" action.

Now, some folks were saying that the Methusaleh does not control the
burnt minion, which is true in the strict sense of the word. However,
by definition you don't control the vampires in your uncontrolled
region, and yet we find that Lazar says: "Lazar may move one blood
from a vampire in your prey's uncontrolled region to a vampire in your
uncontrolled region as a (D) action."

Help??

=> Presumably, when the Puppeteer takes control of a vampire/ally with
a capacity <5, the tapped-or-untapped state of that vampire does not
change. Just checking of course. If that vampire/ally is tapped,
what COULD be done with it? Any ideas would be appreciated.

All for now,
Madman

Halcyan 2

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Sep 24, 2001, 10:12:03 PM9/24/01
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>=> Daemonic Possession says: " . . Move that [burned] minion from his
>or her owner's ash heap to your ready region, put 1 blood or life from
>the blood bank on the minon and tap the minion." Now, who can block
>this action? The card does not mention that this is a "D" action, but
>the rulebook says that a "D" action "targets another Methuselah (or
>something controlled by another Methuselah". Therefore, since it
>targets a card in a Methusaleh's ashheap, I would guess that it is a
>"D" action.

Ash heaps are not considered to be controlled by a Methusaleh (though they do
disappear when that Methusaleh is ousted). Thus targeting something in
someone's ash heap is *not* directed at that Methusaleh. Thus Daemonic
Possession is undirected. (Similarly, Grasp the Ghostly is undirected, though
it was accidently printed with a (D) sign).

>=> Presumably, when the Puppeteer takes control of a vampire/ally with
>a capacity <5, the tapped-or-untapped state of that vampire does not
>change. Just checking of course. If that vampire/ally is tapped,
>what COULD be done with it? Any ideas would be appreciated.

Since there is no specific clause to untap that minion, the minion remains
tapped or untapped.

Things you can do:

Bleed with a Force of Will.
Use Precognizant Mobility to untap them.
Heidelburg blood and equipment off them.

Any other ideas?

If you want an untapped minion, you can always use Shroud Mastery for stealth.

Alternatively, the Puppetteer can be used to tap another minion. Say your prey
has one untapped minion and 1 pool left. I have a Giovanni ready to bleed and
the Puppetteer. I take control of their minion. If I'm successfully I bleed
them out. If they block, they're minion is tapped and I bleed them out.

Um...then there are weird corner case things: take control of a minion if I'm
going to get ousted during my turn just to burn that minion?

Halcyan 2

LSJ

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Sep 24, 2001, 10:30:46 PM9/24/01
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Halcyan 2 wrote:
>
> >=> Daemonic Possession says: " . . Move that [burned] minion from his
> >or her owner's ash heap to your ready region, put 1 blood or life from
> >the blood bank on the minon and tap the minion." Now, who can block
> >this action? The card does not mention that this is a "D" action, but
> >the rulebook says that a "D" action "targets another Methuselah (or
> >something controlled by another Methuselah". Therefore, since it
> >targets a card in a Methusaleh's ashheap, I would guess that it is a
> >"D" action.
>
> Ash heaps are not considered to be controlled by a Methusaleh (though they do
> disappear when that Methusaleh is ousted). Thus targeting something in
> someone's ash heap is *not* directed at that Methusaleh. Thus Daemonic
> Possession is undirected. (Similarly, Grasp the Ghostly is undirected, though
> it was accidently printed with a (D) sign).

Correct. A player "controls" her hand, library, uncontrolled region, and
crypt (the hidden cards) for purposes of figuring out if an action is
directed or not, but not her ash heap.

>
> >=> Presumably, when the Puppeteer takes control of a vampire/ally with
> >a capacity <5, the tapped-or-untapped state of that vampire does not
> >change. Just checking of course. If that vampire/ally is tapped,
> >what COULD be done with it? Any ideas would be appreciated.
>
> Since there is no specific clause to untap that minion, the minion remains
> tapped or untapped.

Correct.

--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

evil_poot_cat

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Sep 25, 2001, 2:32:52 AM9/25/01
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4fis...@compuserve.com (Madman2001) wrote in message news:<7d8b1942.01092...@posting.google.com>...

> change. Just checking of course. If that vampire/ally is tapped,
> what COULD be done with it? Any ideas would be appreciated.

Force of Will, since you gave the target vampire a FOR skill card (if
needed) during your master phase. ^_^

Marianna, Gillespi G., Ambrogino G., Regina G., and Augustus G. all
have auspex of some form, so you could also use Precognizant Mobility
to untap the freshly borrowed minion (all vamps with aus/nec are older
than 5, so it will work at inferior auspex for puppeteered vamps).

evil_poot_cat

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Sep 25, 2001, 2:32:52 AM9/25/01
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4fis...@compuserve.com (Madman2001) wrote in message news:<7d8b1942.01092...@posting.google.com>...

> change. Just checking of course. If that vampire/ally is tapped,


> what COULD be done with it? Any ideas would be appreciated.

Force of Will, since you gave the target vampire a FOR skill card (if

Reyda

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Sep 25, 2001, 7:28:16 AM9/25/01
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"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message news:
20010924221203...@mb-fc.aol.com...

> >=> Presumably, when the Puppeteer takes control of a vampire/ally with
> >a capacity <5, the tapped-or-untapped state of that vampire does not
> >change. Just checking of course. If that vampire/ally is tapped,
> >what COULD be done with it? Any ideas would be appreciated.
>
> Since there is no specific clause to untap that minion, the minion remains
> tapped or untapped.
>
> Things you can do:
>
> Bleed with a Force of Will.
> Use Precognizant Mobility to untap them.
> Heidelburg blood and equipment off them.

you can still take their equipment off with the usual +1 stealth action to
equip with one of your other ready minion's stuff.
you can gain 1 more blood with an autarkis persecution. (and your prey gains
one less blood)

> If you want an untapped minion, you can always use Shroud Mastery for
stealth.

Or use Cloak the gathering w Pochtli, Quadir, Sarrasine or Suthek.
Necromancy isn't limited to Giovannis ;)

Madman2001

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Sep 25, 2001, 8:41:27 PM9/25/01
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LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote :

> A player "controls" her hand, library, uncontrolled region, and
> crypt (the hidden cards) for purposes of figuring out if an action is
> directed or not, but not her ash heap.

I am disturbed by the ruling.

IMHO there is no strong case for the ash heap to be declared
"uncontrolled" while every other card a player has in front of them
(including "uncontrolled" vampires) is declared to be "controlled".
In situations like this, it is best to remember to "keep things
simple". Like a number of other rulings or non-rulebook-rules I've
seen in the past year, this sort of exception is not necessarily
intuitive and merely increases the number of rules to no good purpose.

The game is complicated enough as it is without splitting hairs.

Ask yourself this: is there any purpose within the game dynamics that
the ash heap should be ruled as "uncontrolled"? I can't see any.

Would a newbie be able to figure out that the ash heap is
"uncontrolled" while the crypt is "controlled"?? Very doubtful.

Is it obvious that the ash heap is the only group of cards in front of
you that is "uncontrolled"? This is not obvious.

Therefore, I humbly question the need for such a ruling.

Your thoughts, LSJ??

Madman

LSJ

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Sep 26, 2001, 8:26:46 AM9/26/01
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You appear to be under the impression that the ruling changes the
way the ash heap is handled. The reverse is true. The "ruling"
changes the way other non-controlled card repositories (not the
ash heap) are handled.

The cards in your hand, library, uncontrolled region, and ash heap
are "uncontrolled" by definition. The basic rulebook ruling would
therefore be that anything that targets the cards in any of these
areas would be undirected [6.2.2.1]

The need for the ruling (errata) for the hand is obvious and intuitive.
(and so, see Darius Styx). The need to allow the prey/predator to block
Darius's "equip" action is outweighed by the need for the target
of the action to "protect" her hand (cards she hopes to play).

The need for the ruling (errata) for the uncontrolled region is similar
(for the same reasons, since the uncontrolled region is basically the
"crypt hand") (and so see Trick of Danya).

The need for the ruling for cards in the library is not quite as
clear-cut as the two "hand" cases above, but is reasonably clear.
The library contains cards the player hopes to play/control.

The ash heap, on the other hand, is not a "resource" for the
player. The cards contained therein are not, in general, cards
that the player hopes to control. So the need to allow the
prey/predator to block the minion-gaining effect of Daemonic
Possession outweighs the need of the "target" to protect her
ash heap.

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