Some Questions Pt 2
De Nada
a vote and name myself and Meth A as being able to play 2 master cards. On
Meth B's turn, he calls another Rumors of Gehenna vote naming himself, and
Meth C. Is that legal?
2) This stuff about retainers doing damage is still a bit confusing. If I've
got a pair of Ghoul Retainers outfitted, and they use a flame thrower as
their weapon, can the targeted minion dodge this ? Would one dodge take out
my attack, and both of theirs? Or would it require 3 dodges, if it can be
dodged at all ?
3) Can allies recruit non-specific retainers. IE, could a Renegade Garou
recruit a Ghoul Escort or Ghoul Retainer ?
Thanks and thanks! We're gearing up for a weekend of Jyhads tomorrow, so I'm
getting as many of these questions out of the way as possible. :)
hamd...@my-deja.com
"De Nada" <a...@media.net> wrote:
> 1) Can multiple copies of Rumors of Gehenna be out at the same time ?
I call
> a vote and name myself and Meth A as being able to play 2 master
cards. On
> Meth B's turn, he calls another Rumors of Gehenna vote naming
himself, and
> Meth C. Is that legal?
Rumors of Gehenna
Type: Political Action
Card Text:
Worth 1 vote. Called by any vampire at +1 stealth. Choose a set of
Methuselahs. Successful vote means each chosen Methuselah receives 2
master phase actions during his or her master phase (instead of 1). Any
vampire can burn this card with a successful vote; calling this vote is
a +1 stealth action.
Yes, multiple Rumors can be played, but their effects are not
cumulative - i.e. you can only gain a total of 2 master phases by
Rumors alone. In your example, Meth B can call a second Rumors, but
would still only have 2 Master Phases in total (unless he had a
Parthenon).
Remember, you can vote down Rumors.
(You would need a Parthenon to gain an extra Master phase, giving a max
of 3)
> 2) This stuff about retainers doing damage is still a bit confusing.
If I've
> got a pair of Ghoul Retainers outfitted, and they use a flame thrower
as
> their weapon, can the targeted minion dodge this ? Would one dodge
take out
> my attack, and both of theirs? Or would it require 3 dodges, if it
can be
> dodged at all ?
Ghoul Retainer
Type: Retainer
Pool Cost: 2
Card Text:
Retainer with 2 life. Each round of combat during strike resolution,
Ghoul can inflict 1 damage or use a weapon the controlling vampire is
not using during that round of combat.
Because damage occurs during Strike resolution, it is outside of normal
strikes. It cannot be dodged, and cannot be prevented with cards
that "prevent damage from a strike".
> 3) Can allies recruit non-specific retainers. IE, could a Renegade
Garou
> recruit a Ghoul Escort or Ghoul Retainer ?
Yes
Of course I am notoriously wrong, so best wait for LSJ!
DH
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
John Whelan
On Fri, 8 Sep 2000, De Nada wrote:
> 1) Can multiple copies of Rumors of Gehenna be out at the same time ? I call
> a vote and name myself and Meth A as being able to play 2 master cards. On
> Meth B's turn, he calls another Rumors of Gehenna vote naming himself, and
> Meth C. Is that legal?
Indeed. You can have multiples in play, each naming its a Methuselah or
set of Methuselahs. Of course, no matter how many times a Methuselah is
named he never gets more than 2 master cards per turn.
> 2) This stuff about retainers doing damage is still a bit confusing. If I've
> got a pair of Ghoul Retainers outfitted, and they use a flame thrower as
> their weapon, can the targeted minion dodge this ? Would one dodge take out
> my attack, and both of theirs? Or would it require 3 dodges, if it can be
> dodged at all ?
It cannot be dodged at all. Attacks by retainers are not considered
strikes (this includes Wolf Companion, etc).
> 3) Can allies recruit non-specific retainers. IE, could a Renegade Garou
> recruit a Ghoul Escort or Ghoul Retainer ?
Yes.
You could also get clan or discipline-specific retainers on that Garou,
you have to use the Succubus club (and bribe someone accross table for his
cooperation).
Allies can also recruit non-specific allies.
LSJ
>
> 1) Can multiple copies of Rumors of Gehenna be out at the same time ? I call
> a vote and name myself and Meth A as being able to play 2 master cards. On
> Meth B's turn, he calls another Rumors of Gehenna vote naming himself, and
> Meth C. Is that legal?
Yes. B could even name you or Meth A on that his Rumors - and you'd still just
get 2 Master Phase Actions (per card text).
> 2) This stuff about retainers doing damage is still a bit confusing. If I've
> got a pair of Ghoul Retainers outfitted, and they use a flame thrower as
> their weapon, can the targeted minion dodge this ? Would one dodge take out
> my attack, and both of theirs? Or would it require 3 dodges, if it can be
> dodged at all ?
Damage from retainers cannot be dodged, since dodge only negates the effect
of the opposing minion's strike [6.4.5]
> 3) Can allies recruit non-specific retainers. IE, could a Renegade Garou
> recruit a Ghoul Escort or Ghoul Retainer ?
Yes.
Allies can also equip, recruit other allies, take action-card actions or
actions as allowed by cards in play, etc.
Allies cannot call votes, encounter vampires in torpor to rescue or to
diablerize, or hunt.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Halcyan 2
>> recruit a Ghoul Escort or Ghoul Retainer ?
>
>Yes.
>Allies can also equip, recruit other allies, take action-card actions or
>actions as allowed by cards in play,
>etc.
>Allies cannot call votes, encounter vampires in torpor to rescue or to
>diablerize, or hunt.
But a Renegade Garou wouldn't be able to use the Ghoul Escort, and the Ghoul
Retainer would only be able to inflict the 1 damage (can't use weapons), since
those two cards both refer to "vampire" or "controlling vampire," right? Or...?
Halcyan 2
John Whelan
On 9 Sep 2000, Halcyan 2 wrote:
> But a Renegade Garou wouldn't be able to use the Ghoul Escort, and the
> Ghoul Retainer would only be able to inflict the 1 damage (can't use
> weapons), since those two cards both refer to "vampire" or
> "controlling vampire," right? Or...?
Heh Heh! To fully understand this requires a history lesson.
The Jyhad copy of Ghoul Escort said "All Kindred", so the Garou could not
(originally) get one at all except via Succubus Club. Consistent with the
"all kindred" restriction, it referred to the employing "vampire".
The Jyhad copy of Ghoul Retainer has no such restriction, and sefers to
the employing minion, not the employing vampires. A Garou could both
employ and use them.
Then V:tES came around, and some clueless editor messed with the wording
for no good reason. By default, the V:tES text takes precedence, unless
errata is issued:
"All Kindred" was removed from Ghoul Escort, so that Garous could now
employ them but not use them.
The text on "Ghoul Retainer" changed the word "minion" to
"vampire". Garous could employ them but not use them.
Similar rewording occurred on many other retainers (including other
removals of "All Kindred" restrictions from retainers that had them,
such as Jackie Therman and Tasha Morgan).
Finally (I believe some time last year) it was decided by our wise Rules
Team that this was a dumb mistake, and it did not make sense for allies
not to be able to use their retainers. Errata was issued saying that
references to the employing vampire should be interpreted as references to
the employing minion, unless the power granted was such that it only
applied to vampires (eg. Faithful Servant). This effectively restored the
original intent and function of most retainer cards, except that some
(like Ghoul Escort) were now usable by allies where they were not
previously, due to the removed "Kindred only" restriction.
One of the reasons I like having cards from the original set is that they
help you understand the history of the game. Normally, the V:tes text is
supposed to take precedence, but the V:tes rewrites made so many screwups
that had to be fixed by errata, that the Jyhad text is often more
accurate. Using the card whose text is correct often avoids arguments
(ie. Immortal Grapple).
Sadly, allies lost access to other resouces as well, and this has not been
fixed by errata (you can't issue errata for everything). For instance,
Allies used to be able to benefit from Mob Connections, but "minion" got
changed to "vampire". So the V:tES text stands as the official version
(the errata applied only to retainers).
-- John Whelan
Halcyan 2
(Rest is snipped)
Well, the main reason I asked this, was that I was reading that thread about
Talaq and the Infernal Familiar a while ago. Since LSJ said that the "vampire"
reference in Infernal Familiar does not allow Talaq to use all of the
Familiar's abilities, it makes me wonder if this is true with allies using
other retainers. Any thoughts?
Halcyan 2
John Whelan
On 10 Sep 2000, Halcyan 2 wrote:
> Well, the main reason I asked this, was that I was reading that thread
> about Talaq and the Infernal Familiar a while ago. Since LSJ said that
> the "vampire" reference in Infernal Familiar does not allow Talaq to
> use all of the Familiar's abilities, it makes me wonder if this is
> true with allies using other retainers. Any thoughts?
The text of the errata is as follows:
Any reference to an employing vampire is a reference to the
employing minion, unless the retainer's ability clearly applies
only to a vampire (ie. unless the ability affects blood,
disciplines, clan, sect, capacity, titles, or votes).
So this would exclude Infernal Familiar, whose ability affects both
disciplines and capacity.
By this standard, the text on Infernal Familiar really does mean
"Vampire". Talaq cannot use it, because he is not a vampire. (Though,
ironically, had the card said "Minion" the ability would have been
applicable to him because of his special abilities).
-- John Whelan
LSJ
> Finally (I believe some time last year) it was decided by our
> wise Rules Team that this was a dumb mistake, and it did not
> make sense for allies not to be able to use their retainers.
> Errata was issued saying that references to the employing
> vampire should be interpreted as references to the employing
> minion, unless the power granted was such that it only applied
> to vampires (eg. Faithful Servant).
That errata was made quite some time ago, and by a Rules Team
with a different composition than the one to which you attribute
it. [RTR 30-MAY-1996]:
13) Any retainer that refers to the "vampire" employing the
retainer should be read as referring to the "minion" employing
the retainer instead, unless the retainer's ability involves
something that clearly only applies to vampires, such as
rescuing vampires in torpor or burning blood. Note that this
is only likely to be relevant for retainers without a
Discipline or clan requirement, but the errata still applies
to those with such a requirement. This includes: Ghoul Escort,
Ghoul Retainer, Guiseppe, J.S. Simmons, Jackal (from Ancient
Hearts), Jackie Therman, Mr. Winthrop, Owl Companion, Raven
Spy, Resplendent Protector, Spiritual Protector, Tasha Morgan,
Wolf Companion, and Zombie.
The errata was refined in [RTR 05-JAN-1999]:
Retainers. The current ruling that "Any reference to the
employing vampire should be a reference to the employing
minion, unless the retainer's ability clearly only applies to
a vampire." is a little vague.
The following are "clearly" vampire-only: effects that burn
or gain blood, effects that grant or remove disciplines (or
clan or sect status, for that matter, not that there are any
such retainers currently), effects that alter capacity,
and/or effects that grant or remove titles or votes (again,
not that the current set includes any of these). Everything
else (including bleed, intercept, stealth, and combat
modifiers) are applicable to allies as well as vampires.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/