DS Kindred Coercion Q's

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Murcalumis

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Jan 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM1/28/96
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(all my quoted material comes from the "V:tES Complete Rules Reference
(version 2.3)")

the card in question is: Kindred Coercion reaction dominate X blood
(not pool)
card text: Only usable during a policical action. This reacting vampire
may cancel the votes of X minions. The affected minions cannot be older
than the reacting minion. [Superior]As above, but you may change the
votes of the affected minion to votes of your choice.

first question: are there minions besides vampires that can cast votes?

second question: does this card cancel (or change if i use superior) the
votes of minions i choose (and pay for) if their votes are cast after i
play this card?

third question: does this card cancel (or change) all the votes of of the
minions i choose besides votes coming from politcal cards (including the
one played to call the vote/referrendum)? i'm reading the card this way
using the following sections of the rules:

according to the rules IV, D, 2: "Any Methuselah may burn a political
card in her hand to gain one additional vote per card burned."
according to the rules IV, D, 3: "Methuselahs gain votes for controlling
ready titled Vampires.
a. A ready Primogen provides one vote.[snip]"
according to the rules IV, D, 5: "The Acting Vampire can play Action
Modifiers to gain votes."
according to the rules IV, D, 6: "Other Methuselahs' untapped Minions may
play Reaction cards to gain votes."
according to the rules, IV, D, second NOTE: "Votes gained from Vampires
(either from Action Modifiers and Reactions or from Titles) come from both
the Vampire and the Controlling Methuselah. [RTR]"


simulacrum
adapt, migrate, or die

L. Scott Johnson

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Jan 28, 1996, 3:00:00 AM1/28/96
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murca...@aol.com (Murcalumis) writes:

>(all my quoted material comes from the "V:tES Complete Rules Reference
>(version 2.3)")

>the card in question is: Kindred Coercion reaction dominate X blood
>(not pool)
>card text: Only usable during a policical action. This reacting vampire
>may cancel the votes of X minions. The affected minions cannot be older
>than the reacting minion. [Superior]As above, but you may change the
>votes of the affected minion to votes of your choice.

>first question: are there minions besides vampires that can cast votes?

No. There are not fewer than eight cards from DS that use the term
minion when they refer to kindred.

>second question: does this card cancel (or change if i use superior) the
>votes of minions i choose (and pay for) if their votes are cast after i
>play this card?

I believe so, but you'll have to wait for Tom for official backing.

>third question: does this card cancel (or change) all the votes of of the
>minions i choose besides votes coming from politcal cards (including the
>one played to call the vote/referrendum)? i'm reading the card this way
>using the following sections of the rules:

Yes. Votes from Bewitching Oration, Surprise Influence, etc. can be
cancelled. Votes from PAs cannot.
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | These opinions are mine and
http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | are subject to card text.
Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

Thomas R Wylie

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Jan 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM1/30/96
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Murcalumis <murca...@aol.com> wrote:
>the card in question is: Kindred Coercion reaction dominate X blood
>(not pool)
>card text: Only usable during a policical action. This reacting vampire
>may cancel the votes of X minions. The affected minions cannot be older
>than the reacting minion. [Superior]As above, but you may change the
>votes of the affected minion to votes of your choice.
>
>first question: are there minions besides vampires that can cast votes?

Not currently. But there could be an ally that broke the rules, and had
the ability to contribute votes.

>second question: does this card cancel (or change if i use superior) the
>votes of minions i choose (and pay for) if their votes are cast after i
>play this card?

Yes.

>third question: does this card cancel (or change) all the votes of of the
>minions i choose besides votes coming from politcal cards (including the

>one played to call the vote/referrendum)?...

it cancels all votes that would have been cast by the minion, regardless
of where it scrounged those votes up from.


Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.


L. Scott Johnson

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Feb 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/1/96
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In article <4embbq$o...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>,

Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>
>Murcalumis <murca...@aol.com> wrote:
>>the card in question is: Kindred Coercion reaction dominate X blood
>>(not pool)
>>card text: Only usable during a policical action. This reacting vampire
>>may cancel the votes of X minions. The affected minions cannot be older
>>than the reacting minion. [Superior]As above, but you may change the
>>votes of the affected minion to votes of your choice.
>>
>>first question: are there minions besides vampires that can cast votes?
>
>Not currently. But there could be an ally that broke the rules, and had
>the ability to contribute votes.

Sure. And how 'old' is an ally? Just say that it (like so many others)
should be 'vampire' not just 'minion'. Scrounging for a way to make a
error in card text look right (cf. Force of Will) isn't very promising.

--
-----
L. Scott Johnson (lsc...@crl.com) | The opinions expressed are mine
Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger | and subject to card text

Thomas R Wylie

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Feb 5, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/5/96
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L. Scott Johnson <lsc...@crl.com> wrote:
>>>first question: are there minions besides vampires that can cast votes?
>>Not currently. But there could be an ally that broke the rules, and had
>>the ability to contribute votes.
>Sure. And how 'old' is an ally? Just say that it (like so many others)
>should be 'vampire' not just 'minion'. Scrounging for a way to make a
>error in card text look right (cf. Force of Will) isn't very promising.

If there was an ally that could use a game mechanic normally reserved
for vampires, it would list its effective capacity (and therefore age).

To be clear: Yes, it's a little wonky that Kindred Coercion says "minions"
and not "vampires," but this is a case where I don't really care.

L. Scott Johnson

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Feb 5, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/5/96
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aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes:
>L. Scott Johnson <lsc...@crl.com> wrote:
>>>>first question: are there minions besides vampires that can cast votes?
>>>Not currently. But there could be an ally that broke the rules, and had
>>>the ability to contribute votes.
>>Sure. And how 'old' is an ally? Just say that it (like so many others)
>>should be 'vampire' not just 'minion'. Scrounging for a way to make a
>>error in card text look right (cf. Force of Will) isn't very promising.

>If there was an ally that could use a game mechanic normally reserved
>for vampires, it would list its effective capacity (and therefore age).

>To be clear: Yes, it's a little wonky that Kindred Coercion says "minions"
>and not "vampires," but this is a case where I don't really care.

All too obvious.
I'd rather somebody did.

If you'd meant for it to work that way, it would've been worded similarly
to Precognizant Mobility (normal).
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Any sufficiently advanced bug is
http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | indistinguishable from a feature.
Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. | -- Kulawiec

Santiago

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Feb 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/6/96
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In article <4f608t$9...@butch.lmsc.lockheed.com>, Mike Kelly
<kelly_...@mm.ssd.lmsc.lockheed.com> wrote:


> What about the Ventrue Political Ally? Would the card affect it? If so
then the
> wording is correct!

The card wouldn't affect it because it has no votes. It can sure
bleed, though...

*********************************************************************
Santiago * Ignorance is curable,
e-mail: * but stupidity is terminal.
ia...@mail.utexas.edu *

L. Scott Johnson

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Feb 7, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/7/96
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aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes:
>L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:
>>aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes:
>>>L. Scott Johnson <sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu> wrote:
>>>>aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) writes:
>>>>>Not currently. But there could be an ally that broke the rules, and had
>>>>>the ability to contribute votes.
>>>>Sure. And how 'old' is an ally? Just say that it (like so many others)
>>>>should be 'vampire' not just 'minion'. Scrounging for a way to make a
>>>>error in card text look right (cf. Force of Will) isn't very promising.
>>>
>>>If there was an ally that could use a game mechanic normally reserved
>>>for vampires, it would list its effective capacity (and therefore age).
>>>
>>>To be clear: Yes, it's a little wonky that Kindred Coercion says "minions"
>>>and not "vampires," but this is a case where I don't really care.
>>All too obvious.
>>I'd rather somebody did.

>Oh, give me a break. Yes, Kindred Coercion is out of template, but
>*who cares*? Being out of template does not break the card; it is
>not worth errata. Yes, we should be more careful about using "minion"
>vs. using "vampire", but I am not going to run around issuing
>errata for every card that is out of template. If you feel the need
>to do it in your house rules summaries, fine, whatever. But I am not
>going to waste time or space in the official errata lists over
>something like this.

I don't expect you to issue errata on every error (there are too many)
But I do expect you *not* to issue spurios logic in support of an error -
this will lead to a propagation of the error into future printings, as
it has become justified.

Just say that it was wrong but not enough to cross the errata threshhold
rather than saying that it could be right if future BS happens.
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Smith & Wesson: the original
http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | "point and click" interface.

Eric Pettersen

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Feb 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/9/96
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The Ventrue Political Ally doesn't have any votes, just a 3 bleed.

Mike Kelly <kelly_...@mm.ssd.lmsc.lockheed.com> wrote:
[ in response to whether Kindred Coercion should say 'vampire' rather than
'minion', since votes are affected]

Nicole Janine Purvis

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Feb 9, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/9/96
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Eric Pettersen (pe...@homer.ucsf.edu) wrote:
: The Ventrue Political Ally doesn't have any votes, just a 3 bleed.

The political ally doesn't provide votes, just a heavy bleed.

--

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "What is a man without the beasts? If the beasts were gone, |
| man would die from a great loneliness of spirit." |
| "Confuse, annoy, and dee-STROY!!" Call me "Nicole" and I |
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thomas R Wylie

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Feb 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/11/96
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Thomas Doehne <doe...@church.cse.ogi.edu> wrote:
>>Oh, give me a break. Yes, Kindred Coercion is out of template, but
>>*who cares*?
>People who are trying to play the game care. Obviously, the
>publisher doesn't care....

The point was that it's not really important enough to be worth errata.
Yes, it's grating to have a card out of template. Yes, AH is going to
be a lot better about this than DS was. But in the end, where KC is
concerned, it's not all that important to gameplay.

>>Being out of template does not break the card; it is not worth errata.

>"Out of template" !? What a nice, inoffensive-sounding
>synonym for 'misprinted'. <sarcasm alert>
>
>I hate weasel-terms like this. But their use gives me
>a sense of the honesty of the person using them.

Weasel-term? The cards are templated (or supposed to be) depending on what
they do. All bleed equipment and retainers should be phrased the same way,
cards should say "minion" or "vampire" depending on what they're supposed
to affect, and so on. Stating that KC is out of template is simply
stating a fact. It's not a good thing that it's out of template; it's not
earth-shattering in this case.

>>Yes, we should be more careful about using "minion"
>>vs. using "vampire", but I am not going to run around issuing
>>errata for every card that is out of template. If you feel the need
>>to do it in your house rules summaries, fine, whatever. But I am not
>>going to waste time or space in the official errata lists over
>>something like this.
>

>I'm appalled. Not really surprised, given the past history of
>care given to Jyhad after it failed to meet initial expectations,
>but I'm still disgusted. Where's the pride taken in the quality
>of the product? Instead of facing up to the error, we get an
>attempt to gloss over it. Bleah!

It looks like it's time to reiterate our approach to errata. Errata is only
issued when a card has some functional problem with it. Yes, I understand
that errata means ther things in other contexts, such as that of RPGs.
But in trading card games, there's more than enough to keep track of without
making people wade through insignificant errata to cards. By this criterion,
simply being out of template does not make a card candidate for errata. Being
out of template in such a way that it had a negative impact on the game would
make it a candidate. You can call that lazy if you want, but the fact is
that, on average, issuing errata to a card makes more people upset than happy,
so it's not really worth the headaches if the error isn't important.

REF

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Feb 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/11/96
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aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) wrote:


>It looks like it's time to reiterate our approach to errata. Errata is only
>issued when a card has some functional problem with it. Yes, I understand
>that errata means ther things in other contexts, such as that of RPGs.
>But in trading card games, there's more than enough to keep track of without
>making people wade through insignificant errata to cards. By this criterion,
>simply being out of template does not make a card candidate for errata. Being
>out of template in such a way that it had a negative impact on the game would
>make it a candidate. You can call that lazy if you want, but the fact is
>that, on average, issuing errata to a card makes more people upset than happy,
>so it's not really worth the headaches if the error isn't important.


>Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
>aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

Now if only everyone could agree on whats important, hmm?
REF


Hunter Johnson

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Feb 11, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/11/96
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In article <4fjcqq$o...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>,

Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>It looks like it's time to reiterate our approach to errata. Errata is only
>issued when a card has some functional problem with it. Yes, I understand
>that errata means ther things in other contexts, such as that of RPGs.

Errata is an English word. If you (WotC) want to redefine it, put it
in your rulebook as a game term. Unless that's below your threshold.

>But in trading card games, there's more than enough to keep track of without
>making people wade through insignificant errata to cards.

Let me get this straight. There's more to keep track of in trading
card games than RPGs? Boy, are you overestimating that portion of
your tasks.

Let's say that GURPS had 100 supplements (an underestimate) with 100
pages each (an underestimate). That's 10,000 pages (8.5x11). Let's
say that 1% of that was non-color text (a gross underestimate).
That's 100 pages to keep track of. I bet I could put all of the rules
and card texts for Jyhad/VtES on fewer pages.

Hunter
-- /\
J. Hunter Johnson / \ jhun...@io.com, http://www.io.com/~jhunterj
GURPS Bibliographer / () \ finger jhun...@io.com for GURPS bib.
& Errata Co-coordinator /______\ sjg-e...@io.com
"Exotic Dancer Barbie does not bump or grind by herself."

Thomas R Wylie

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Feb 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/12/96
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Hunter Johnson <jhun...@meaddata.com> wrote:
>>It looks like it's time to reiterate our approach to errata. Errata is only
>>issued when a card has some functional problem with it. Yes, I understand
>>that errata means ther things in other contexts, such as that of RPGs.
>Errata is an English word. If you (WotC) want to redefine it, put it
>in your rulebook as a game term. Unless that's below your threshold.

What is this, Dictionary Thumping Week?

"er-ra'tum A printer's or writer's error in a publication; pl., such
errors _or a list of them with corrections_"

Errata - in the *correction* sense of the term - is only issued when there
is a functional correction to be made. I doubt RPG errata lists mention
every missing punctuation mark, or at least, I don't remember the GURPS
lists from years ago doing so. There's no particular reason to distract
a TCG player with them, either.

>>But in trading card games, there's more than enough to keep track of without
>>making people wade through insignificant errata to cards.
>Let me get this straight. There's more to keep track of in trading
>card games than RPGs? Boy, are you overestimating that portion of
>your tasks.

Did I say there was more to keep track of in TCGs than RPGs? No. I just
said there's an awful lot to keep track of already. And I do think there's
less interaction between elements of RPGs, and elements of TCGs; the average
interaction of a GURPS skill with other skills is much less than the average
VTES card's interaction with other cards, for example.

>Let's say that GURPS had 100 supplements (an underestimate) with 100
>pages each (an underestimate). That's 10,000 pages (8.5x11). Let's
>say that 1% of that was non-color text (a gross underestimate).
>That's 100 pages to keep track of. I bet I could put all of the rules
>and card texts for Jyhad/VtES on fewer pages.

And after 100 expansions, VTES rulings will have much more of 100 pages of
text, if you're really interested in detailing every single interaction. And
it will probably take at least 1000 pages, which is a more reasonable estimate
of the actual rules contents of those supplements.

Chad Lubrecht

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Feb 12, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/12/96
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Why do you have such a problem with this wording?
Substituing minion for vampire in this case has absolutely no effect on
game play. Vampires are the only minions who can vote, so a card that
effects votes cast by a particular minion can only be used against a
vampire. This is the exact effect intended.

Hunter Johnson

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Feb 13, 1996, 3:00:00 AM2/13/96
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In article <4fm53v$h...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>,

Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>
>Hunter Johnson <jhun...@meaddata.com> wrote:
>>
>>Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>>>But in trading card games, there's more than enough to keep track of without
>>>making people wade through insignificant errata to cards.
>>Let me get this straight. There's more to keep track of in trading
>>card games than RPGs? Boy, are you overestimating that portion of
>>your tasks.
>
>Did I say there was more to keep track of in TCGs than RPGs? No.

Yes. Your previous statement was "Yes, I understand that errata means
ther things in other contexts, such as that of RPGs." In that
context, "But in trading card games, ...." means that you are pointing
out a difference between CCGs and other contexts, in particular RPGs.

>I just
>said there's an awful lot to keep track of already. And I do think there's
>less interaction between elements of RPGs, and elements of TCGs; the average
>interaction of a GURPS skill with other skills is much less than the average
>VTES card's interaction with other cards, for example.

Interaction is probably greater, yes. But I was viewing that
differently than things to keep track of.

>>Let's say that GURPS had 100 supplements (an underestimate) with 100
>>pages each (an underestimate). That's 10,000 pages (8.5x11). Let's
>>say that 1% of that was non-color text (a gross underestimate).
>>That's 100 pages to keep track of. I bet I could put all of the rules
>>and card texts for Jyhad/VtES on fewer pages.
>
>And after 100 expansions, VTES rulings will have much more of 100 pages of
>text, if you're really interested in detailing every single interaction. And
>it will probably take at least 1000 pages, which is a more reasonable estimate
>of the actual rules contents of those supplements.

[I'm not interested in detailing every interaction, just every rule.
But that aside:]

Okay, so after you (WotC) put out 100 supplements, than you can
justify your (current) errata threshold level with "There's more than
enough to keep track of."

Hunter
--
Hunter Johnson
jhun...@lexis-nexis.com "Teamwork is *so* overrated."
jhun...@io.com Thailog, in "Sanctuary"


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