questions [LSJ]

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Stone

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Sep 24, 2001, 4:49:28 PM9/24/01
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Hi,

Here are some ruling questions that arised during the EC...the questions
about Lunatic Eruption and the bid for hostile takeover have already been
answered in the "EC is over" thread.

1/ A minion calls a Kine Resources Contested and taps Creepshow Casino. The
Kine is cancelled by Direct Intervention. Is the Casino still tapped? I said
yes.

2/ Meth A completes his minion phase. Meth B sends a Malkavian bleeding A
via Madness Network. Can A have one of his vampires play reaction cards like
Deflection? I said yes.

3/ Sir Walter Nash gets Deranged. When he successfully moves the Derange to
another vampire, does he get his title of Prince back immediately? I said
yes.

I'm absolutely sure of the following, but I ask them anyway for reference,
since I saw some players raising eyebrows over the decisions:

1/ A Methuselah has only one vampire, which is a Ventrue in torpor. Can she
play Ventrue Headquarter? I said no. This one arised in the EC final!!

2/ Latzverinius is in combat and plays Torn Signpost. He strikes for 5
damage, right?

3/ Meth A gets a vampire from B via Graverobbing. The graverobbed vampire
gets Banished. He goes into A's uncontrolled region, right?

4/ Muddle Vampire Hunter's default strike is hand damage, right? So it works
even if Immortal Grapple is played?

5/ A meth has 2 Kine Resources Contested in her hand. Her vamp calls the
vote. The vote is cancelled by Direct Intervention. The vamp can play the
second KRC since the "no repeat action" does not apply as the 1st action
never resolved, right?

6/ A tapped and Deranged vampire has no blood. During the untap phase, the
vamp cannot untap by "failing to spend a blood", right?

7/ 2 vampires are in combat. Vampire A (let's say with 2 blood) with Torn
Signpost strikes for 3. B (with 6 blood) strikes for 1. A plays sup. Blur,
strikes for 3 damage each strikes. During the resolution of the 3rd strike,
A plays Taste of Vitae. I said A gets 6 blood. Correct?


Halcyan 2

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Sep 24, 2001, 5:23:20 PM9/24/01
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I'm not LSJ but I'll do my best:

<< 1/ A minion calls a Kine Resources Contested and taps Creepshow Casino. The
Kine is cancelled by Direct Intervention. Is the Casino still tapped? I said
yes.
>>

Not sure. My best guess is that you play Kine Resources Contested, there is the
opportunity to play DI as the card is played, and then the acting minion has
the opportunity to play cards/effects usable when announcing an action (and
after each such effect is played the DI has to be played immediately then). So
it would be something like:

A: I bleed you with a Govern the Unaligned.
(B has the opportunity to DI)
A: I play a Seduction so Sheldon can't block.
(B has the opportunity to DI)
A: I play Perfect Clarity
(B has the opportunity to DI).
etc, etc

*I think* it would be a bit too weird if I play a Govern, then a Seduction, and
then Perfect Clarity and you can play a DI to retroactively cancel the Govern
(and cancel the two modifiers while you're at it).

LSJ?

>2/ Meth A completes his minion phase. Meth B sends a Malkavian bleeding A
>via Madness Network. Can A have one of his vampires play reaction cards like
>Deflection? I said yes.

Yes the Deflection can be played.

Rulesbook Section 1.6.3.

"Reaction cards: A ready untapped minion can play a reaction card in response
to an action taken by another Methuselah's minion (an action taken by one of a
Methuselah's minions cannot be reacted to by any of her own minions). A minion
cannot play the same reaction card more than once during a single action. A
reaction card does not tap the minion using it."

It doesn't matter whose turn it is (to determine who play action modifiers and
reactions). It matters who's the acting minion.

>3/ Sir Walter Nash gets Deranged. When he successfully moves the Derange to
>another vampire, does he get his title of Prince back immediately? I said
>yes.

Yes unless someone else got the Princedom/Diocese during his absence (he would
then automatically yield it) or Sir Walter obtained a new title while !Malk.

Rulebook Section 10:

"A vampire must belong to the appropriate sect to receive a title. If a vampire
with a title changes clans or sects to a clan or sect inappropriate for his
title, he loses the benefit of the title until his clan or sect changes
appropriately. If he receives a new title or if his title is contested (see
Contested Titles, sec. 4.2), he immediately yields the old title. "

>1/ A Methuselah has only one vampire, which is a Ventrue in torpor. Can she
>play Ventrue Headquarter? I said no. This one arised in the EC final!!

You're correct.

Rulebook Section 1.6.1.3:

"If the left side of a master card has a clan symbol, it can only be played by
a Methuselah who controls a ready member of that clan. If a minion card has a
clan symbol, it can only be played by a vampire who belongs to that clan."

(You need a *ready* member of that clan).

>2/ Latzverinius is in combat and plays Torn Signpost. He strikes for 5
>damage, right?

Correct. Torn Signpost (sup) sets his base strength to 3 (instead of 1). You
then add his +2 strength special for a total strength of 5.

>3/ Meth A gets a vampire from B via Graverobbing. The graverobbed vampire
>gets Banished. He goes into A's uncontrolled region, right?

Correct.

The Banished vampire goes to his (permanent) controller's uncontrolled region.
[RTR 19991001 RTR 20000501]

Temporary control effects are ended if the vampire is Banished, as normal, so
the vampire would be placed in his previous (permanent) controller's
uncontrolled region. [RTR 20000501]

So although a Mind Raped or Temptation'ed vampire would go back to it's
controller's uncontrolled region, since Graverobbing is a *permanent* form of
control, it goes into A's uncontrolled region.

>4/ Muddle Vampire Hunter's default strike is hand damage, right? So it works
>even if Immortal Grapple is played?

Umm...*everyone's* default strike is a hand strike. MVH has a strength of 4 so
he would normally be striking (with hands) for 4 (usable under IG). The First
Strike ability doesn't change the fact that his normal strike is with hands
(just like how Basilia's agg effect doesn't change the fact that she's striking
with hands). So even if an IG is played against a Muddled, he still strikes for
4 with First Strike.

>5/ A meth has 2 Kine Resources Contested in her hand. Her vamp calls the
>vote. The vote is cancelled by Direct Intervention. The vamp can play the
>second KRC since the "no repeat action" does not apply as the 1st action
>never resolved, right?

Correct.

Since the NRA rule is applied to the acting minion when the action resolves (is
blocked or is successful), the minion whose action card is canceled by Direct
Intervention is free to attempt the same type of action again, even with
(another copy of) the same card. [LSJ 19980212]

>6/ A tapped and Deranged vampire has no blood. During the untap phase, the
>vamp cannot untap by "failing to spend a blood", right?

Correct. Note that this is a "do something" *to* "do something else." Since he
cannot burn the blood, he cannot get the effect (untapping).

>7/ 2 vampires are in combat. Vampire A (let's say with 2 blood) with Torn
>Signpost strikes for 3. B (with 6 blood) strikes for 1. A plays sup. Blur,
>strikes for 3 damage each strikes. During the resolution of the 3rd strike,
>A plays Taste of Vitae. I said A gets 6 blood. Correct?

Sounds right. Card text:

Only usable after strike resolution. This vampire gains an amount of blood
equal to the amount lost by the opposing vampire to damage during this round of
combat. Not usable by a vampire going to torpor. Blood loss counted by a
previous Taste of Vitae is not counted again.

The card doesn't restrict the user from only gaining blood lost from one
strike. So since a total of 6 blood was "lost by the opposing vampire to damage
during this round of combat," everything sounds right.

Hope this helps!

Halcyan 2

jeroen rombouts

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Sep 24, 2001, 7:17:01 PM9/24/01
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"Stone" <mc_judg...@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
news:9oo6ep$n32$1...@wanadoo.fr...

> Hi,
>
> Here are some ruling questions that arised during the EC...the questions
> about Lunatic Eruption and the bid for hostile takeover have already been
> answered in the "EC is over" thread.
>
I think you ruled right on every account. I'm not sure about the Casino,
though. I think DI has to be played before creepshow Casino is tapped.

> 1/ A minion calls a Kine Resources Contested and taps Creepshow Casino.
The
> Kine is cancelled by Direct Intervention. Is the Casino still tapped? I
said
> yes.
>

see above
>
<snip IMO correct rulings>

> 4/ Muddle Vampire Hunter's default strike is hand damage, right? So it
works
> even if Immortal Grapple is played?

What did you rule? I'd say yes. It's Muddles's default strike and fits the
definition of a hand strike.

BTW, nice T-shirt!

Jeroen


Jack Crow

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Sep 24, 2001, 9:50:24 PM9/24/01
to

The muddled strike is a hand strike. All inherent ally strikes are
hand strikes. DI had to be played before the casino was tapped. The
casino gets to be "untapped" since it never should have been able to
target the poilitical card.

Jack Crow

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Sep 24, 2001, 9:51:24 PM9/24/01
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On Mon, 24 Sep 2001 23:17:01 GMT, "jeroen rombouts"
<jeroen....@pandora.be> wrote:

No, I dont know why I replied to your post rather than the original.
Doh. Sorry.

LSJ

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Sep 24, 2001, 10:27:20 PM9/24/01
to
Stone wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Here are some ruling questions that arised during the EC...the questions
> about Lunatic Eruption and the bid for hostile takeover have already been
> answered in the "EC is over" thread.
>
> 1/ A minion calls a Kine Resources Contested and taps Creepshow Casino. The
> Kine is cancelled by Direct Intervention. Is the Casino still tapped? I said
> yes.

No. Likewise any Seduction "played" could not have been played.

> 2/ Meth A completes his minion phase. Meth B sends a Malkavian bleeding A
> via Madness Network. Can A have one of his vampires play reaction cards like
> Deflection? I said yes.

Yes.

> 3/ Sir Walter Nash gets Deranged. When he successfully moves the Derange to
> another vampire, does he get his title of Prince back immediately? I said
> yes.

He regains the benefit of the title immediately, yes.



> I'm absolutely sure of the following, but I ask them anyway for reference,
> since I saw some players raising eyebrows over the decisions:
>
> 1/ A Methuselah has only one vampire, which is a Ventrue in torpor. Can she
> play Ventrue Headquarter? I said no. This one arised in the EC final!!

Correct.

> 2/ Latzverinius is in combat and plays Torn Signpost. He strikes for 5
> damage, right?

If he played TS at superior and uses his default hand strike, yes.



> 3/ Meth A gets a vampire from B via Graverobbing. The graverobbed vampire
> gets Banished. He goes into A's uncontrolled region, right?

Yes, since A is the "permanent" (not temporary) controller.



> 4/ Muddle Vampire Hunter's default strike is hand damage, right? So it works
> even if Immortal Grapple is played?

His default strike (for 4) is a hand strike, yes.

> 5/ A meth has 2 Kine Resources Contested in her hand. Her vamp calls the
> vote. The vote is cancelled by Direct Intervention. The vamp can play the
> second KRC since the "no repeat action" does not apply as the 1st action
> never resolved, right?

Correct.

> 6/ A tapped and Deranged vampire has no blood. During the untap phase, the
> vamp cannot untap by "failing to spend a blood", right?

Correct.

> 7/ 2 vampires are in combat. Vampire A (let's say with 2 blood) with Torn
> Signpost strikes for 3. B (with 6 blood) strikes for 1. A plays sup. Blur,
> strikes for 3 damage each strikes. During the resolution of the 3rd strike,
> A plays Taste of Vitae. I said A gets 6 blood. Correct?

Correct.

--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Pierre TRAN-VAN

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Sep 25, 2001, 4:48:57 AM9/25/01
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"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
3BAFEB88...@white-wolf.com...

> Stone wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Here are some ruling questions that arised during the EC...the questions
> > about Lunatic Eruption and the bid for hostile takeover have already
been
> > answered in the "EC is over" thread.
> >
> > 1/ A minion calls a Kine Resources Contested and taps Creepshow Casino.
The
> > Kine is cancelled by Direct Intervention. Is the Casino still tapped? I
said
> > yes.
>
> No. Likewise any Seduction "played" could not have been played.


ah geez...sorry to the player who suffered from my wrong judgment. At least
he was not really penalized, since after the DI he called another vote which
was not intercepted.

Stone


Pierre TRAN-VAN

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Sep 25, 2001, 4:54:18 AM9/25/01
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"jeroen rombouts" <jeroen....@pandora.be> a écrit dans le message de
news: N9Pr7.69042$6x5.15...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be...

(snip)

> > 4/ Muddle Vampire Hunter's default strike is hand damage, right? So it
> works
> > even if Immortal Grapple is played?
>
> What did you rule? I'd say yes.

same here.

It's Muddles's default strike and fits the
> definition of a hand strike.
>
> BTW, nice T-shirt!

hehe thanks, my friend Jean-Alexis Riou did the photoshop work :)
(it was a t-shirt with a fake VtES card displaying Judge Dredd)


Stone

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Sep 25, 2001, 5:02:52 AM9/25/01
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"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
20010924172320...@mb-md.aol.com...

Yup...I should have thought about a paralled situation with Seeds of
Corruption:
a minion performing an action pays extra blood, but he gains the blood back
if the action is cancelled with DI (hope I'm correct on this one).


(snip the much better explanations of the rulings)

> Hope this helps!

It does, thanks. I had to nurse a damn headache when writing, and was way
too tired as well to provide explanations :)

Stone


LSJ

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Sep 25, 2001, 6:39:00 AM9/25/01
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Stone wrote:
> "Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
> > Not sure. My best guess is that you play Kine Resources Contested, there
> is the
> > opportunity to play DI as the card is played, and then the acting minion
> has
> > the opportunity to play cards/effects usable when announcing an action
> (and
> > after each such effect is played the DI has to be played immediately
> then). So
> > it would be something like:

Correct.

> Yup...I should have thought about a paralled situation with Seeds of
> Corruption:
> a minion performing an action pays extra blood, but he gains the blood back
> if the action is cancelled with DI (hope I'm correct on this one).

He never burns the blood for Seeds, correct.

Stone

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Sep 25, 2001, 8:37:01 AM9/25/01
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"Jack Crow" <no...@nowhere.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
3bafdf8c....@news.flrtn1.occa.home.com...

> The muddled strike is a hand strike. All inherent ally strikes are
> hand strikes. DI had to be played before the casino was tapped. The
> casino gets to be "untapped" since it never should have been able to
> target the poilitical card.

In my mind, I was thinking "there's no way the casino can get untapped
because of the DI", but it was the wrong problem since the Casino should
never have been tapped in the first place. Same situation for Seduction as
LSJ pointed out.

This is real tricky in tournament games. A player using Casino or Seduction
should then wait for DI after playing each action card, if he wants to make
sure no one knows that he has a Seduction in hand...it makes the game
slower.

Stone


LSJ

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Sep 25, 2001, 8:37:53 AM9/25/01
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Jack Crow wrote:
> The muddled strike is a hand strike. All inherent ally strikes are
> hand strikes.

Not quite. All inherent non-ranged damage-dealing ally strikes are
hand strikes. And that is moot by now, since all allies now simply
state their strength value. Their hand strike deals strength damage.

pallando

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Sep 25, 2001, 3:30:47 PM9/25/01
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"Pierre TRAN-VAN" <mc_judg...@yajoo.fr> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:9opg6g$29so$1...@io.uvsq.fr...

>
> ah geez...sorry to the player who suffered from my wrong judgment. At
least
> he was not really penalized, since after the DI he called another vote
which
> was not intercepted.
>
> Stone
>

never mind that. nobody is perfect. it is not easy judging a 2-day event
after all.

from what i read i believe you did a very good job judging during the ec.

pallando


Stone

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Sep 25, 2001, 7:09:41 PM9/25/01
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"pallando" <pall...@gmx.at> a écrit dans le message news:
9oqls7$7ba$1...@bird.wu-wien.ac.at...

> never mind that. nobody is perfect. it is not easy judging a 2-day event
> after all.
>
> from what i read i believe you did a very good job judging during the ec.
>
> pallando
>
>

thanks...I hope there won't be more than 2 mistakes...I need a whip for
punishment...;)


Stone

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Sep 25, 2001, 8:25:04 PM9/25/01
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> I'm absolutely sure of the following, but I ask them anyway for reference,
> since I saw some players raising eyebrows over the decisions:

I forgot that one...some players really seemed astonished at my decision,
and it gave me the shivers...

minion A takes an action (whatever, I can't remember which) at zero stealth.
Minion B has -1 Intercept. B cannot block A unless B's intercept
increases/A's stealth decreases up to the point where intercept >=stealth,
right?????????????

Stone


Halcyan 2

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Sep 25, 2001, 8:41:41 PM9/25/01
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>minion A takes an action (whatever, I can't remember which) at zero stealth.
>Minion B has -1 Intercept. B cannot block A unless B's intercept
>increases/A's stealth decreases up to the point where intercept >=stealth,
>right?????????????

Correct.

-1 < 0 (and intercept needs to be >= stealth as you said).

Negative stealth and intercept (and strength but not damage) are indeed
possible.

Halcyan 2

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