Non-bounce bleed defence
James Coupe
bounce for non-Dom/Aus disciplines, and so on.
So, here's a random idea for non-bounce bleed defence. I've thrown it
in Serpentis just as an essentially random choice. I'm interested as to
whether the mechanic might be viable. Obviously, numbers can be tweaked
a lot!
Seductive Lies
Serpentis, 1 blood, Action Modifier / Reaction
[ser] [act mod] +1 bleed
[ser] [react] Requires a vampire older than 4. Playable by a tapped
vampire. Reduce a bleed against you by 2, and put this card on this
reacting vampire. The vampire with this card has +1 bleed. Burn
this card during your discard phase. A Methuselah can control only
one Seductive Lies.
Things I've been thinking about:
- the general trend that, in a blind tournament, bleed reduction is
typically weaker than bleed bounce, so trying to pick it up a bit
- offering some offence along with it, in the way that bounce does
- making it a tiny bit more flexible than bounce, in that the vampire
with this card doesn't have to bleed (whereas using bounce forces you
to aim the pool damage at someone)
- it's usable in the end game
- a simple, straightforward inferior that makes the card fairly
straightforwardly usable without being stellar. (For other ideas, you
could have something straightforward like stealth, a maneuver or
press, or whatever else seems appropriate.)
If a card similar using a mechanic similar to Seductive Lies were
printed:
- what discipline would you like it to go to
- how much tweaking would it need to tempt you to include it in an
appropriate deck?
And:
- do you have any ideas that aren't bounce but that could be potentially
viable bleed defence?
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Demnogonis Saastuttaja
have it untap the acting minion or something to keep it in balance. As
for reduce I have found AUS/DEM very good at this as they also allow
vote defense and both of the cards reduce 2.
Azel
i've pretty much given up finding an alternative; nothing beats
bounce. the game skews so hard towards it, it's embarrassing. i am of
the opinion that any alternative -- at a minimum -- must include
"reduce bleed to zero," because that's one of the big functions of
bounce. every time you play bounce it does 2 effects: one, reduces a
bleed against you to zero, and two, gives you offense another
methuselah in the game.
now that second effect, giving you offense against another methuselah,
is also critically important. it's a balancing counter-weight to
spamming huge bleeds. further, it helps reduce methuselahs (usually
the non-bouncing ones) so as to avoid a game timing out. overall, i
believe that ousting methuselahs is the direction we want the game to
go in. so even though bleed reduction is nice... the game's gotta end
sometime, and timing out every 2 hours gets old even faster than being
bled out real fast.
further, even though permanent intercept walls do hold their own, it
really grinds down the game and reduces feelings of clan flexibility.
i.e. a lot of clans with animalism end up becoming a wall of Ravens,
which while effective, ends up feeling like a crutch in response to
the lack of bounce. suddenly gearing up a wall becomes a major
priority and walls now proliferate making VTES a bit more exhausting
with time outs and drawn out games than it used to be. a mere handful
of bounce allows flexibility from having to gear a whole deck into
dedicated wall construction -- this is a good thing.
i really don't think there's a way to fix this without going into VTES
2.0 (reworking bleed cards, etc) -- and i don't want it to go to that,
considering how many cards i have. so i am of the opinion that might
as well democratize bounce, get it over with, and then introduce
quirky alternatives AFTER the big gaping whole has been patched.
NOTE! -- just because i want bounce democratized does NOT mean i want
cookie-cutter versions of Deflection everywhere. i think we can be
considerably more creative than that. the first part, reduce bleed to
zero should be non-negotiable, but the drawback that it could
"boomerang back" should still be there, which necessitates it harass
someone else. now, the manner of harassment is completely open to
creativity...
if i was to bring more bounce in the game, i'd target certain
disciplines:
ANI - covers Gangrel/!Gangrel country, Nosferatu/!Nosferatu, Ravnos,
Guruhi, Akunanse, Tzimisce, & bloodlines Ahrimanes
CEL - covers Assamite, Brujah/!Brujah, !Gangrel city, Ishtarri, Osebo,
Toreador/!Toreador
OBF covers Assamites, Followers of Set, Malk/!Malk, Nosferatu/!
Nosferatu & bloodlines Baali, Samedi
now that covers pretty much the 3 main Cam/Sabbat clans that had
bounce issues, Brujah, Gangrel, Nosferatu. it also covers the 3 main
Indies, too, Assamite, Followers of Set, and Ravnos. and lastly it
covers the 3 Laibon with similar issues, Akunanse, Guruhi, and
Ishtarri.
now, i would also consider ones for FOR and POT, especially for the
bloodlines assistance.
FOR - covers Akunanse, Gangrel/!Gangrel country, Ishtarri, Ravnos,
Ventrue/!Ventrue & bloodlines Blood Brothers, Daughters of Cacophony,
Gargoyle, Harbinger of Skulls, Samedi, Salubri/!Salubri
POT - Brujah/!Brujah, Giovanni, Guruhi, Lasombra, Nosferatu/!
Nosferatu, Osebo & bloodlines Blood Brothers, Gargoyle, True Brujah
what i like about hitting those 5 cards is that it covers every clan
once, often twice, and a rare few 3 times. this then allows very
different clan deck crypt focuses to occur. this is good because
suddenly you are not reworking a crypt into squeezing bounce minions
for defense -- this retains focus upon the design flavor. i.e. if you
want to focus on CEL POT or OBF SER, you no longer have to bend a
little towards AUS/DOM to feel "viable." Euro Brujah is a painful
example of this; if it was just the prince titles, don't you think it
would have manifested diversity beforehand?
and, again, i am not thinking mere "palate swaps" of Deflection and
homogenizing all disciplines into a great swath of formless grey. you
would have to be pretty short-sighted and unimaginative to only see
this as the end result. what i am proposing is to pull the community
back from its current *heavy* slant towards AUS/DOM, Mega Walls, and
Con Boon/Voter Cap as defense (the last pairing i actually think is a
serious problem, Con Boon being exploitation for weenie/breeds and VC
often being one of the few reasons to bother with big caps -- but
that's another discussion). and since timing out 2 hours after every
game is more of a problem for this game's health than anything else,
at i think so from a psychological and promotional level, let us move
away from mega permacept, bleed reduction "teflon coating," and
grotesque bloat. let's actually play faster, exciting games!
i'll repost with some of my design ideas on previously mentioned 5
disciplines.
(and thanks James for reintroducing this topic. it's good for us to
return to things that keep returning as a lynchpin to several other
play balance problems.)
Peter D Bakija
> - do you have any ideas that aren't bounce but that could be potentially
> viable bleed defence?
For years and years, I have been pushing/promoting the idea of non AUS
based, flexible, effective bleed reduction, something like:
obf: +1 stealth
OBF: Reduce a bleed by 2
Or whatever, by discipline as appropriate.
More bleed reduction has been moved into the game, which is good, but
a lot of it isn't quite as handy as necessary to actually be *good*
bleed defense. We got:
-Friend of Mine: Reasonably (but not exceptionally) flexible, being a
3 way Anarch card. Effective, as it reduces by 2. Not actually that
great, as it costs a blood.
-Detect my Authority (? Is that the right one?): Good, as it reduces
by 2. Reasonably flexible, as it is a 3 way Anarch card. Much better
than Friend of Mine, as it is free. Kind of redundant, as Tha
generally comes with Dom or Aus.
-Confusion of the Eye: A good flexible defense card. But as it only
reduces a bleed by 1, it is more of a good vote defense card that is
easily cycled for a slightly beneficial effect than a solid bleed
defense.
-Truth in Ink: Effective, as it reduces by 2 for free. Not real
flexible, as that is all it does, and sometimes is unplayable. But
generally, pretty solid.
-Nest of Eagles: Pretty solid and flexible as bleed defense, but
restricted to a single clan.
-The Fortitude One (Steadfastness?): Flexible, as it is +1 intercept
or reduce a bleed by 1. Not *that* effective, as it only reduces by 1,
which, really, isn't enough to be a reliable bleed defense.
-A few other fringier effects (isn't there some nutty Healeristry
reduction card?)
These are certainly a good start, but still, other than Truth in Ink
and the mostly redundant Detect my Authority, they are kind of ok for
general use, but hardly the backbone of a solid bleed defense. To be
good bleed defense, a reduction card *really* needs to reduce by 2 to
be worth the card slot.Which strikes me as totally reasonable for a
card that requires a superior discipline. I'd still really like to see
free, non restricted SUP: reduce a bleed by 2 on cards that have
flexible, useful inferior abilities.
-Peter
Ruben Feldman
Ser has Ecstasy
Obe has Peacemaker
Myc has Folderol
Everyone has access to Lost in translation
and I am sure I forget many other.
I don't t know that a change is needed...
Peter D Bakija
The problem with those that that none of them are remotely as good as
bleed bounce, and all of them are considerably worse than Telepathic
Counter, which is already generally viewed as not all that effective.
Bounce is *sooooo* good relative to reduction that given the choice,
95% of the time, they'll take bounce. And given the not choice, 50% of
the time they'll shoehorn bounce in anyway.
If there were good (i.e. not highly conditional, not costing blood,
reducing bleeds by 2 at a superior discipline) and flexible (i.e. the
inferior ability is something useful and not bleed reduction involved)
bleed reduction cards for non Auspex disciplines, they would be a
reasonable basis for a non bounce bleed defense. Currently, other than
a few sidelines (Truth in Ink is good, but limited to a small pool of
minions; Nest of Eagles is good, but limited to a single clan, and
doesn't save you from giant bleedzookas; Detect Authority is
theoretically good, but if you have tha, you also probably have
dom...), bleed reduction is the sad abused stepchild of bleed defense.
Make cards that are good and flexible, and not Auspex based, and you
can start building good bleed defense that isn't bounce.
The obvious (possibly too handy, but illustrate the idea) examples:
obf: +1 stealth
OBF: Reduce a bleed by 2
cel: maneuever or press
CEL: Reduce a bleed by 2
for: prevent 1 damage
FOR: Reduce a bleed by 2
ani: Strike: 1R damage
ANI: Reduce a bleed by 2
Or whatever. These might be *too* flexible, and could use a bit of
reigning in (especially the obf version), but the basic idea is what
needs to be out there. Flexible, effective bleed reduction. Make
bounce look slightly less like "Huh. I should have Deflection is every
deck I ever make" than it currently is.
-Peter
Azel
> i'll repost with some of my design ideas on previously mentioned 5
> disciplines.
as promised, here's some ideas. there are 2 major principles: 1)
reduce the bleed to zero 2) use another's offense for yourself.
FOR, taking a page from The Mole
The Principles of Defense
Reaction
Requires a vampire with a capacity above 3.
for: Only usable when a minion is bleeding you after blocks are
declined. Tap this vampire to cause the action to end (cost is still
paid). You lose no pool from this action's bleed.
FOR: As above, and the acting minion burns a blood.
first, i like how it has The Mole's "tap to" cost, making it hard to
work with a wake. second, i like how it dovetails with Forced
Vigilance. third, i like how it removes blood counters from the table,
speeding up games. not as strong as bounce in terms of aggression, but
avoids re-bouncing, Freak Drives, and other shenanigans. and it still
stops an early bleed of 5 or 7 barreling on through. a valid and
thematic trade off, i think.
Succumb to the Beast
Reaction
1 blood.
Frenzy
Not usable against your prey's minions.
ani: Only usable when a minion is bleeding you after blocks are
declined. Tap this reacting vampire. Choose your prey. The acting
minion is now bleeding your prey.
ANI: As above, and the acting minion gets +1 bleed versus your prey.
works akin to My Enemy's Enemy or Determine. has a weakness versus
Kindred Spirits (or Night Moves or, ha!, Cat Burglary) going
backwards. also, as a Frenzy, is cancelable by Abombwe and Aye. the
extra bleed helps speed up the oust, but like Tier of Souls, stays on
the prey -- does not damage indiscriminately. thematic in that the
inner predator and the animal wants to focus on its prey.
Deadline Rush
(picture: blur of a vampire manning a panel of phones amid a storm of
papers)
Reaction
1 blood
Only usable once per methuselah per action.
cel: Only usable when a minion is bleeding you after blocks are
declined. Choose another Methuselah other than the controller of the
acting minion. The acting minion is now bleeding that Methuselah.
CEL: Gain 3 Votes. Reduce your pool damage from this vote by 1 if it
passes.
"Yes, I know that Senator. But what I am saying is I need to cash in
some favors -- now." Shifts to other phone line, "State Treasurer,
good to know you are still awake..."
got rid of the tapping clause. that's good, because you don't tap, but
bad because the new clause does not let you re-bounce a "boomerang," a
significant trade off. calling in human favors rapidly should have a
cost that humans cannot help you again as quickly, and that's how i
would represent it. since it's calling in human favors, i threw in 3
votes as a costly alternate clause. helps survive some vote hostility,
but is not playable from extra minions, like Dread Gaze or Surprise
Influence, so the pool defense from votes does not stack.
there, all are generally within the scope of bounce's two major
criteria, therefore viable alternatives to them. however they are each
different and thematic enough as to create new strategies. it ceases
to be a "palette swap" of an ability spread among the disciplines.
Azel
says the Edward Vignes guy... ;) i kid, i kid.
Salem
> Or whatever. These might be *too* flexible, and could use a bit of
> reigning in (especially the obf version), but the basic idea is what
> needs to be out there. Flexible, effective bleed reduction. Make
> bounce look slightly less like "Huh. I should have Deflection is every
> deck I ever make" than it currently is.
to go with James's ideas of reducing bleeds _and_ giving offence,
without wallpapering current reduce, how about something synergistic wih
reduce:
Stolen Stratagems
Master
Put this card in play. If a bleed against you resolves for 0 or less,
tap this card to make your prey burn [X] pool. Your prey may burn this
card by burning the Edge during their untap phase. A methuselah may have
only one Stolen Stratagems.
X could be 1, or some formula based on how much negative the bleed was,
or you could put untap phase edge pool on the card instead of in your
pool and X is the number of counters, etc.
One often overlooked benefit of reduce over bounce is that reduce can
help you keep the edge.
--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'gmail' to email)
Salem
> Deadline Rush
> (picture: blur of a vampire manning a panel of phones amid a storm of
> papers)
> Reaction
> 1 blood
> Only usable once per methuselah per action.
> cel: Only usable when a minion is bleeding you after blocks are
> declined. Choose another Methuselah other than the controller of the
> acting minion. The acting minion is now bleeding that Methuselah.
...
> got rid of the tapping clause. that's good, because you don't tap, but
> bad because the new clause does not let you re-bounce a "boomerang," a
> significant trade off. calling in human favors rapidly should have a
> cost that humans cannot help you again as quickly, and that's how i
> would represent it. since it's calling in human favors, i threw in 3
> votes as a costly alternate clause. helps survive some vote hostility,
> but is not playable from extra minions, like Dread Gaze or Surprise
> Influence, so the pool defense from votes does not stack.
>
> there, all are generally within the scope of bounce's two major
> criteria, therefore viable alternatives to them. however they are each
> different and thematic enough as to create new strategies. it ceases
> to be a "palette swap" of an ability spread among the disciplines.
Basic [cel] is equivalent to superior [DOM] Deflection?!?! (except on
re-bounced bleeds. But I very rarely see someone need to play more than
1 deflection per action, as the re-bouncing tends to be forward...)
Peter D Bakija
> to go with James's ideas of reducing bleeds _and_ giving offence,
> without wallpapering current reduce, how about something synergistic wih
> reduce:
I don't know the bleed bounce also needs to provide offense. I mean,
yeah, bounce is insanely good for that reason. But I don't know that
making reduction do the same thing is necessary, especially given that
reduction generally:
A) doesn't tap you.
B) Allows you to keep the edge.
And if it is free, that is all the better. I'd just like bounce to be
flexible (so it is worth including in a deck) and effective (non
restricted reduce by 2 for free at a superior discipline).
-Peter
Salem
Telepathic Miscounter
reaction
1 blood
[aus] +1 intercept, and if this is a bleed action against you, reduce
the bleed by 1.
[AUS] Reduce a bleed against you by 3.
I tried to find some way to not wallpaper Telepathic Counter OR
Telepathic Misdirection....
But I prefer the idea of making other, synergistic cards to go along
with the _current_ reduce cards to make them see play more often (see my
'Stolen Stratagems' type idea in another post).
Vincent
bounce.
If was thinking about it recently.
If we take a look at the most widely spread disciplines among vampires
of capacity >= 9 that do not have any level of Dominate nor superior
Auspex, we get the following results :
Group 1-2 (26)
Obfuscate: 18 (5 inf, 13 sup)
Celerity: 15 (5 inf, 10 sup)
Fortitude: 15 (6 inf, 9 sup)
Group 2-3 (36)
Potence: 23 (5 inf, 18 sup)
Obfuscate: 23 (5 inf, 18 sup)
Animalism: 23 (5 inf, 18 sup)
Group 3-4 (45)
Animalism : 33 (4 inf, 29 sup)
Potence: 30 (5 inf, 25 sup)
Presence: 23 (1 inf, 22 sup)
Group 4-5 (42)
Presence: 28 (4 inf, 24 sup)
Animalism: 25 (2 inf, 23 sup)
Obfuscate: 25 (6 inf, 19 sup)
So some card in Animalism, Presence, Obfuscate or Potence (!) could
really be appreciated.
Big vampires mean they can afford some blood cost to deflect. Lost in
Translation is not that bad, but too restrictive and too expensive.
With a discipline requirement, we could lower the cost.
I thought about something like
Name: Slight mistake (or any name fitting the discipline)
Cost: 1 blood
Reaction
[xxx] Only usable when an ally or younger vampire is bleeding you for
2 or less, after blocks are declined. Choose another Methuselah other
than the acting minion's controller. The acting minion is now bleeding
the chosen Methuselah.
[XXX] Only usable when you are being bled for 3 or more. Reduce the
bleed amount by 2.
You cannot deflect big bleeds with it, but it helps you surviving.
Thoughts?
brandonsantacruz
Bleed reduction does have that problem against powerbleed and the
like. It also leaves you in a bad position(in comparison to bounce)
when facing multiple bleeders until the end game. As much as I feel
like "new card ideas" threads are ignored by the designers and
therefore not very relevant, here's something that could help enhance
reduction without being an effortless defense.
Glimpse of Mortality
Master- out of turn
Play this card when you are being bled to reduce the bleed to zero.
Untap the acting minion(they may bleed again this turn). You may play
this card when any methuselah is being bleed to reduce the bleed to
half(round down). Only one Glimpse or Mortality may be played per
game.
Versatile, powerful, but limited to once per game.
Farting into the wind,
Brandon
Ruben Feldman
> On Dec 16, 8:23 am, Ruben Feldman <frub...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Obf has confusion of the Eye
> > Ser has Ecstasy
> > Obe has Peacemaker
> > Myc has Folderol
> > Everyone has access to Lost in translation
> > and I am sure I forget many other.
>
> > I don't t know that a change is needed...
>
> The problem with those that that none of them are remotely as good as
> bleed bounce, and all of them are considerably worse than Telepathic
> Counter, which is already generally viewed as not all that effective.
> Bounce is *sooooo* good relative to reduction that given the choice,
> 95% of the time, they'll take bounce. And given the not choice, 50% of
> the time they'll shoehorn bounce in anyway.
>
So you would like to give some disciplines what other have?
Would you like to add some Dom/Pre fight, what about some Pot bleed,
or some Qui votepush?
If all the disciplines did the same things, the game would be more
than a little boring.
librarian
Agreed.
However, the strength of bounce is such that in most
competetive environments, you need either dom or AUS to have
any hope of success.
Not sure why other abilities don't have good reduce at least.
best -
chris
Raziel
That is said by player who won most of his tournament playing Vignes
powerbleed, and most of his decks have high amount of deflections.
Are you scared about losing your 'advantage' ?
Jarkko Suvela
I'd like to see animalism bleed reduce or even bounce.
like so,
ani: +1 intercept, only usable during (D) action against you.
ANI: Reduce bleed by 2 against you, only usable if acting minion is
younger vampire or ally
Dunno if any other discipline would need bleed reduce, Brujah and !
Brujah need reduce bleed though!
foritude already has similar card ....blablablaa
for: +1int vs you
FOR: reduce bleed by 1
---------
Detect Authority
ser/tha/ani, requires anarch
this has way more uses than Friend of Mine and is free, I've found
this card awesome against rushes and bleeds.
-when reading anarch requiring cards I never start to ponder them
like thaumaturgy belongs to tremere and serpentis to setites, perhaps
thats the whole deal that you can utilize bizarre looking disciplines
on vampires (or disciplines on bizarre looking vampires... like Petru
Sipos with for/ani/CHI/SER for example)
my 2cents
wedge
retribution and the like
of course not very good
Arenthebes
blessing of chaos can be good
protected resources good for voters
DI
Archon Investigation
justicar retribution
permanent intercept
keep it simple
and of course block
Ruben Feldman
>
> - Show quoted text -
It is not my advantage. Anyone can play any deck.
If you really want to look specifically at the Edward vignes deck,
bleed reduction doesn't affect it much as it is a tap and bleed deck.
Also, I haven't won most of my tournaments with that deck.
If the game changes, my choice of deck will change too, and so i don't
mind change, as long as it is coherent and constructive.
My point is that giving an effective bleed reduction card to most of
the of the above disciplines is as absurd as giving dementation a way
to deal with combat ends in combat (that only a few disciplines
provide, just like bleed-bounce).
Further, when building a deck, you have to consider how you will deal
with bleed/votes/intercept and so on. Brainlessly putting in bleed
reducers that fit in every deck doesn't really add to the game (and
would actually be a negative for the game).
A rush deck already has stong defense against bleed, it's called
backrush. This is in addition to all the other solutions that are
listed in this thread, as well as master cards any deck may use (dummy
corp, archon, Two wrongs...) Intercept decks obvioulsy manages fine
without deflection or bleed reduction. Others try outbloat etc.
Peter D Bakija
> So you would like to give some disciplines what other have?
> Would you like to add some Dom/Pre fight, what about some Pot bleed,
> or some Qui votepush?
No, I want a currently underutilized defense mechanism (i.e. bleed
reduction) to be useful as an actual bleed defense strategy.
Currently, the only actual good bleed reduction (Telepathic Counter)
is in the hands of Auspex, which has bounce. Bleed reduction is a
criminally under utilized technology that *could* actually be a good
defense, and if done well, make bounce not the be all and end all of
bleed defense (I'd hazzard a guess that, like, more than 50% of all
tournament decks have bounce in them. 'Cause it is stupid to play a
serious tournament without bleed bounce.) If bleed reduction was
rethought and used to create a more balanced game (such that there
were reasonable alternative to bounce), I think that would make the
game work better. Currently, there are attempts to make bleed
reduction more available. But it is yet to actually be good. Make
bleed reduction flexible and good, and available to non Auspex
disciplines, and the game opens up some.
> If all the disciplines did the same things, the game would be more
> than a little boring.
No one is asking for all the disciplines to do the same things. I'm
suggesting that a currently underutilized mechanism, that shouldn't
have been in Auspex to begin with get used to make the game better.
-Peter
Chlorix
Championship contained either a Dominate or Auspex bounce module. How
boring is that?
And yes, I also want to keep the identity of certain disciplines. I
was for example not pleased to see cards like Rego Motus or No Trace,
because those disciplines didn't need those cards.
But bounce is something else. It is so powerful compared with other
bleed reducers, that people are going to use bounce modules in decks
of clans that have no affinity with Dominate or Auspex what so ever.
When something like that constantly happens, it is clear that there is
some sort of an imbalance.
If only two or three other disciplines got access to decent bounce.
That would already help a lot. And with "decent" I mean on par with
Deflection and Telepathic Misdirection. For me Animalism and Celerity
would make the best candidates.
BTW, even adding a playable bounce card for inferior Auspex would
help.
Adding bleed reducers could be an alternative, but they should be very
powerful. Not the prevent 2 pool ones we have now, because that is no
where near the same as what bounce has to offer (reduce every bleed to
zero pool).
H
Drain
> On Dec 16, 1:55 pm, Ruben Feldman <frub...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > So you would like to give some disciplines what other have?
> > Would you like to add some Dom/Pre fight, what about some Pot bleed,
> > or some Qui votepush?
>
> No, I want a currently underutilized defense mechanism (i.e. bleed
> reduction) to be useful as an actual bleed defense strategy.
> Currently, the only actual good bleed reduction (Telepathic Counter)
> is in the hands of Auspex, which has bounce. Bleed reduction is a
> criminally under utilized technology that *could* actually be a good
> defense, and if done well, make bounce not the be all and end all of
> bleed defense (I'd hazzard a guess that, like, more than 50% of all
> tournament decks have bounce in them. 'Cause it is stupid to play a
> serious tournament without bleed bounce.) If bleed reduction was
> rethought and used to create a more balanced game (such that there
> were reasonable alternative to bounce), I think that would make the
> game work better. Currently, there are attempts to make bleed
> reduction more available. But it is yet to actually be good. Make
> bleed reduction flexible and good, and available to non Auspex
> disciplines, and the game opens up some.
>
> > If all the disciplines did the same things, the game would be more
> > than a little boring.
I, for one, wouldn't like to see bounce democratized through
disciplines. I believe Master cards may be the way to go.
"Misleading Paper Trail"
Master: Out of Turn
Cost: 1 Pool
Play when a minion controlled by your predator is bleeding you. That
minion is now bleeding your predator's predator. Your minions may not
play cards that change the target of a bleed for the rest of the
current turn.
Using My Enemy's Enemy's template for bouncing, it manages to protect
the Meth's pool without unduly empowering deflecting strategies except
if you don't rely on such cards to begin with.
Drain
_angst_
I'm not sure it's a good idea to spread bounce more than it already
is. As Ruben says there are tons of ways to defend yourself with
bounce ofcourse being the strongest defense there is vs bleed. But I
think that adding bounce to other disciplines would make it to easy to
defend against s&b. The game is about ousting so I think we have to be
careful with adding too many defensive options to the game. And btw,
adding something similar to deflection to animalism sounds slightly
insane to me considering how strong animalism is already.
Regards
Alex
Peter D Bakija
> Adding bleed reducers could be an alternative, but they should be very
> powerful. Not the prevent 2 pool ones we have now, because that is no
> where near the same as what bounce has to offer (reduce every bleed to
> zero pool).
See, but the 2 pool reductions we have now aren't even particularly
common. Telepathic Counter is with Aus, and 95% of the time, you use
Telepathic Misdirection instead (I think it was a significant error in
the original game design to have given Auspex bleed reduction in any
case). Truth in Ink is pretty good, but limited in scale. The rest of
the bleed reduction cards are only reduce by 1 or very narrow in use
or scope.
Unrestricted, flexible bleed reduction, where a superior discipline
reduces a bleed by 2, would be a good place to start. See how that
goes. Would it be a bit of discipline slosh? Shure. But more helpful
for the game than giving Obfuscate SCE (oops) or vote push (oops) or
Presence stealth (oops) or Dominate dodge (oops). And would help make
bounce less prevalent/completely necessary.
-Peter
librarian
> Almost every deck in the different finals during the 2009 European
> Championship contained either a Dominate or Auspex bounce module. How
> boring is that?
>
>
[snip]
>
> But bounce is something else. It is so powerful compared with other
> bleed reducers, that people are going to use bounce modules in decks
> of clans that have no affinity with Dominate or Auspex what so ever.
> When something like that constantly happens, it is clear that there is
> some sort of an imbalance.
>
The thing about bounce is its pure efficiency. With 1 card,
you reduce a bleed to 0, *and* gain an offensive benefit.
No other single minion card/effect has the same payoff, at
least that I can think of - certainly nothing in combat does.
best -
chris
Orange Devil
As Peter pointed out, bounce effectively reduces a bleed to 0 (the
defence part) and also transfers the bleed to (usually) your prey (the
offense part). Reduce simply reduces the bleed, thus only consisting
of a defense part. Currently, the defense part of bounce is, in most
cases, stronger then the defense part of reduce, since reduce cards
usually only reduce by 2 or 1 point of bleed. When looking at only the
defense part, the way that reduce is stronger then bounce is that it
often does not cost a blood, whereas many of the commonly played
bounce cards do. It does not tap you, whereas many bounce cards do.
Lastly, it is usually usable against all vampires, whether younger or
older, whereas this isn't always the case with bounce. Lastly,
reducing leaves no risk of seeing the bleed bounced back, although
arguably this is a really small risk, since in the vast majority of
cases bouncing forward is the better choice. Superior deflection comes
out far ahead of anything else ofcourse, since DOM is rather commonly
available as a discipline and the only costs are 1 blood and a very
small risk of being bounced back too (which incidentally can still be
mitigated by another vampire with dom playing another deflection, or
packing in a few redirections or telepathic misdirections in the deck
as well, something which is becoming more useful with more bounce-
cancel cards becoming available anyhow).
So, given that we can generally say that bounce has a stronger defense
part then reduce, and on top of that also packs an offense part, we
can conclude bounce is superior. How then to make reduce more
playable? The way I see it, either add offense to reduce, or increase
the defense of reduce. Peter has made some suggestions on the first
page of this thread where he adds flexibility, certainly a very
valuable trait for any card, to reduce cards. The objection I have to
his suggesions is that they all seem to make the reduce cards into
combocards rather then just reactions, thus not so much increasing the
defense, but increasing the offensive power of the cards. The reason I
object to this is because adding an offensive element to reduce makes
reduce cards much more akin to bounce cards, which already mix defense
and offensive together naturally as a result of the mechanics of
bounce and in some cases as a result of card flexibility (see Murmur
of the False Will). I think adding offensive flexibility to new bounce
cards with a weaker bounce element (so with appropriate restrictions
or cost) is appropriate if bounce were to spread to other disciplines
(say animalism, celerity, potence of obfuscate, as discussed
throughout this thread). I do not think adding offensive flexibility
to new reduce cards is desirable, for it moves these cards into the
territory of bounce.
What then to do with reduce? I'd rather like to keep the reduce cards
strictly defensive. To be playable however, they will have to become
more defensive then they are now, as bounce does the job of defense
better then reduce does. Thus, they will need to be more defensive. As
an example I will point to Wrong and Crosswise, which takes the
effects of superior Telepathic Misdirection and superior Dread Gaze
and puts it on 1 card. It even has reduce 2 available to an inferior
of a discipline, which AFAIK is unique. The downside is the card costs
a blood, but it has taken one bad card and combined it with another
marginal card, and has made it a card that is, in my estimation,
playable. Another example if Confusion of the Eye. Although as Peter
pointed out, this is more of a vote defense card with a bit of reduce
thrown in as a bonus, it does illustrate the kind of thing I am
talking about: Adding more defensive capability to 1 card. Another
example of this would be: "put this card in play, reduce this bleed by
2, you may burn this card to reduce a bleed by 2 (not usable this
action)" or something to that effect. A card like that might justify
paying a blood or tapping to play. Similarly would be something along
the lines of "Put this card in play, only playable on a bleed action
directed at you. All bleeds including the current bleed, are reduced
by 1. Any minion may take a D action to remove this card as a +1
stealth action."
So in sum: Bounce > Reduce because bounce does the job of reduce
better then reduce does in nearly all situations. Thus reduce is
hardly . Tplayableo make reduce more playable either increase reduce's
offensive or defensive capabilities. I prefer the defensive
capabilities to be increased to differentiate reduce from bounce.
brandonsantacruz
> the of the above disciplines is as absurd as giving dementation a way
> to deal with combat ends in combat (that only a few disciplines
> provide, just like bleed-bounce).
>
> Further, when building a deck, you have to consider how you will deal
> with bleed/votes/intercept and so on. Brainlessly putting in bleed
> reducers that fit in every deck doesn't really add to the game (and
> would actually be a negative for the game).
>
> A rush deck already has stong defense against bleed, it's called
> backrush. This is in addition to all the other solutions that are
> listed in this thread, as well as master cards any deck may use (dummy
> corp, archon, Two wrongs...) Intercept decks obvioulsy manages fine
> without deflection or bleed reduction. Others try outbloat etc.
>So you would like to give some disciplines what other have?
>Would you like to add some Dom/Pre fight, what about some Pot bleed,
>or some Qui votepush?
>If all the disciplines did the same things, the game would be more
>than a little boring.
I think that bleed reduction is already somewhat spread out and not
the domain of any particular discipline(s). Taking from the latest
post, you can have a purely defensive card that, while not
spectacular, provides another solid option for a discipline. For
example:
Feral Speech
Reaction
ani: Reduce a bleed against you by 2
ANI: +1 intercept
You have animal spies. Much like other animal spies, they warn you.
You could even go with something like this:
Subsume the Spirit
Reaction
ani: Reduce a bleed against you by 2
ANI: Burn an animal retainer this vampire controls to reduce a bleed
against you to zero
There are different ways they could function that are in keeping with
the way disciplines work
Resolve
Reaction
cost: 1 blood
for: Reduce a bleed against you by 2
FOR: Cause a bleed action against you to fail. During your next untap
phase, this vampire goes to torpor.
I can just see the picture with the vampire being burned by sunlight,
but hanging on to ward off his enemies.
Brandon
Juggernaut1981
on a thematic idea.
Animalism - Ahr, Aku, Gan/!Gan, Gur, Nos/!Nos, Rav, Tzi
Presence - Ahr, Baa, Bru/!Bru, DoC, FoS, Gur, Ish, Tor/!Tor, Tru, Ven
Potence - Bros, Bru/!Bru, Gar, Gio, Gur, Las, Nos/!Nos, Ose, Tru
This covers a LOT of Clans that don't already have a flick/reduce,
plus if done properly will not wallpaper or compete with existing
flick tech (such as Telepathic Counter).
Examples:
We Are Not Prey
Reaction
Animalism
The reacting minion taps and burns 1 blood or life.
[ani] Reduce this bleed by 3. If this bleed resolves for 0, the
acting minion or a retainer on the acting minion, suffers 1
unpreventable damage.
[ANI] This bleed is redirected to your prey, unless they cannot be
bled by the acting minion.
Glorious Presence
Reaction
Presence
Only usable by a vampire with capacity 6 or greater.
[pre] Burn 2 blood. Cancel a (D) action targeting this vampire as it
is played. The acting minion untaps and may attempt a new action.
[PRE] Burn 1 blood. Reduce a bleed against you by 3. If this bleed
resolves for 0, place this card on the acting minion. They have -1
bleed against you until they successfully bleed you.
The Best Form of Defence
Reaction
Potence
Only usable by a vampire with capacity 6 or greater during a (D)
action against you.
[pot] Burn 1 blood and tap this minion. The acting minion takes 1
damage and if this action is a bleed reduce it by 2.
[POT] Burn 1 blood and tap this minion. The current action is
considered blocked by this reacting minion. Not usable on an
unblockable action. You can only play this card at [POT] once per
turn.
Peter D Bakija
> Peter has made some suggestions on the first
> page of this thread where he adds flexibility, certainly a very
> valuable trait for any card, to reduce cards. The objection I have to
> his suggesions is that they all seem to make the reduce cards into
> combocards rather then just reactions, thus not so much increasing the
> defense, but increasing the offensive power of the cards.
They are just examples, but that being said, making them flexible and
useful for something other than bleed reduction goes a long way
towards making them playable, and as such, something that is worth
building a defense around. Making them into cards that are something
common to discipline X (+1 stealth or a maneuver or whatever) at
inferior and then "Reduce a bleed by 2" at superior gets around the
"this card isn't strong enough to justify the single focus of it" that
shoots most bleed reduction in the foot.
> What then to do with reduce? I'd rather like to keep the reduce cards
> strictly defensive. To be playable however, they will have to become
> more defensive then they are now, as bounce does the job of defense
> better then reduce does. Thus, they will need to be more defensive. As
> an example I will point to Wrong and Crosswise, which takes the
> effects of superior Telepathic Misdirection and superior Dread Gaze
> and puts it on 1 card.
Ooh, yeah, Wrong and Crosswise is also a good defense card. But again,
comes with Auspex most of the time anyway. Why did Dementation (which
comes hand in hand with Auspex and consequently bleed bounce) get
Wrong and Crosswise? That card could have been any discipline and it
would have been fine.
>It even has reduce 2 available to an inferior of a discipline, which AFAIK is unique.
Both of the Anarch cards that reduce use inferior disciplines. But you
also need to be an Anarch.
-Peter
Salem
> My point is that giving an effective bleed reduction card to most of
> the of the above disciplines is as absurd as giving dementation a way
> to deal with combat ends in combat (that only a few disciplines
> provide, just like bleed-bounce).
Blessing of Chaos
Type: Action
Requires: Dementation
Cost: 1 blood
+1 stealth action.
[dem] Put this card on the acting vampire. If this vampire attempts to
block, the acting vampire cannot play action modifiers requiring
Dementation, Chimerstry [chi], Dominate [dom] or Presence [pre].
Vampires opposing this vampire in combat cannot play cards that require
those Disciplines.
[DEM] As above, and actions requiring those Disciplines cannot be
directed at this vampire.
Rarity: Sabbat:R CE:PM Third:PM
Juggernaut1981
Salem,
I agree with him that giving [dem] reduce is kinda dense considering
they already have plenty of Auspex.
Keep it Simple was a good addition, but potentially not enough or not
seeing enough play.
Orange Devil
>
> They are just examples, but that being said, making them flexible and
> useful for something other than bleed reduction goes a long way
> towards making them playable, and as such, something that is worth
> building a defense around. Making them into cards that are something
> common to discipline X (+1 stealth or a maneuver or whatever) at
> inferior and then "Reduce a bleed by 2" at superior gets around the
> "this card isn't strong enough to justify the single focus of it" that
> shoots most bleed reduction in the foot.
I agree, but as I explained, I'd rather reductions stays purely in the
realm of defense as to differentiate from bounce.
> Both of the Anarch cards that reduce use inferior disciplines. But you
> also need to be an Anarch.
Right, and Friend of Mine costs a blood and Detect Authority is at
tha, which normally comes with either aus or dom or both anyway. I
guess Detect Authority might be an option of tha is combined with ser
or ani, but even then I find it hard not to just default to
Deflection. Ironically dom seems to get the best anarch bleed reducer
in The Mole, but I've never seen it played because Deflection.
Salem
Ironically dom seems to get the best anarch bleed reducer
> in The Mole, but I've never seen it played because Deflection.
that, and the crushing requirements for using it:
need to be anarch
need to be untapped (wake doesn't cut it)
being bled by a younger vampire (not an ally)
that vampire can't be an anarch
it taps you.
on the bright side, it's free!
Orange Devil
The problem with Keep it Simple as I see it is that it does not have a
big audience. Firstly Keep it Simple doesn't help against bruise
bleed, while other reduce and bounce does. Secondly, for Keep it
Simple to be effective, you need to be able to generate some
intercept. I find that most decks that can generate quite some
intercept will try to actually block the bleeds and would rather draw
another intercept reaction then a Keep it Simple. Decks that don't
generate a lot of intercept are best served not blocking the stealth
bleeder at all, hoping to jam his hand up with stealth. For Keep it
Simple to work you have to sacrifice that strategy and allow the
stealthbleeder to cycle, which is rather daring.
Juggernaut1981
Static. Intercept.
I have my (insert handful of birds here) of permanent intercept.
Usually in the range of 2-4. I get bleed by Lasombra Dominate Cheese-
Bleed or Malk94 Cheese Bleed or (some other Cheese Bleed concept). I
block, acting minion cycles handful of stealth, hopefully enough to
equal the amount of bleed or higher. You then play Keep it Simple.
Now they HAVE to play their bleed mods to get any kind of effect, as
opposed to nuking you off the table with a bleed of 7.
Peter D Bakija
> I agree, but as I explained, I'd rather reductions stays purely in the
> realm of defense as to differentiate from bounce.
Oh, fair enough. I just can't off the top of my head imagine, like, a
suitable obf level reaction to go with an OBF reduce bleed by 2. I
mean, like, if the plan is to make that kind of card, but keep them
reactions, I'm all over it.
Like, an Animalism version could be:
ani: Stay untapped after blocking.
ANI: Reduce a bleed by 2.
But I have trouble seeing a good way to make such a card for, say,
Obfuscate or Celerity or whatever.
> Right, and Friend of Mine costs a blood and Detect Authority is at
> tha, which normally comes with either aus or dom or both anyway.
Which is why they are both bad :-)
> guess Detect Authority might be an option of tha is combined with ser
> or ani, but even then I find it hard not to just default to
> Deflection.
Exactly. Still, the best bleed reduction cards come attached to bounce
either in the same discipline (Auspex) or as a common in clan
discipline (Dementation comes with Auspex; Thaumaturgy comes with
Auspex *and* Dominate). I think bleed reduction should have been an
ability for *non* bleed bounce capable disciplines/clans. Which is a
direction the designers seem to be going in, but so far, most of this
motion has been very cautious and underwhelming.
-Peter
Wookie813
Combat/Reaction
[for] Prevent 1 damage.
[FOR] Play when a bleed against you is successful. This reacting
vampire takes X-1 unpreventable damage to reduce the bleed by X.
In the Nick of Time
Reaction
[cel] Only usable when a D action is declared against you. Untap this
vampire.
[CEL] As above, and you may discard X cards from your hand to reduce a
bleed against you by X+1. Do not replace the discarded cards until
your next untap phase.
Strategic Use of Force
Reaction
Only usable when a minion controlled by your predator announces an
action.
[pot] The acting minion has -1 bleed and -1 strength for the remainder
of the action.
[POT] As above, and this vampire attempts to block. If the acting
minion successfully bleeds you, that minion takes X unpreventable
damage, where X is the amount of the bleed.
Convincing Argument
Reaction
Only usable during actions attempted by a younger vampire or an ally.
[pre] Reduce a bleed against you by 1 or gain 1 vote during a
referendum.
[PRE] As above, but reduce the bleed to zero or gain 2 votes and put
this card on the acting minion. The minion with this card does not
untap as normal during the untap phase. The minion with this card may
burn this card instead of untapping during it's controller's untap
phase.
Incite the Beast
Reaction
Frenzy
Only usable during a D action attempted by your predator or prey.
[ani] The acting minion cannot play action modifiers for the remainder
of the action.
[ANI] Only usable when being bled for 2 or more by a younger vampire
or an ally who is not controlled by your prey. Choose a minion
controlled by your prey. The acting minion and the chosen minion enter
combat. Tap this reacting vampire.
James Coupe
>On Dec 16, 5:51�am, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote:
>> - do you have any ideas that aren't bounce but that could be potentially
>> � viable bleed defence?
>
>based, flexible, effective bleed reduction, something like:
>
>obf: +1 stealth
>OBF: Reduce a bleed by 2
>
>Or whatever, by discipline as appropriate.
Unsurprisingly, you were one of the people I was thinking of. :-)
Over time, I've become more concerned about the 'hidden' cost of playing
bleed reduce vs bounce. For both of them, I either need to be untapped
normally (so having given up an action) or to be playing a Wake
reaction. (Yes, there are other possibilities - but this is broadly
true, I think we can agree.) This obviously isn't a problem in wall-ish
decks, that aren't acting much anyway, but is more problematic
elsewhere.
Bounce gets the lost action back by sending your predator at your prey.
Spending two cards (wake+bounce) to send, say, a bleed for 2 at +1
stealth at your prey is also not an altogether bad proposition, and
larger bleeds are also handled.
Reduce doesn't get the lost action back. Spending two cards
(wake+reduce) to reduce a bleed by 2 - and potentially still go on to
take more pool damage - isn't such a great proposition.
Now, in draft, I think the +1 stealth/reduce by 2 card you suggest could
be a monster. Or whatever other bread and butter inferior you can
suggest. [pot] (D) Enter combat with a minion. / [POT] Reduce a bleed
by 2. Whatever. But I think in constructed, it could still lose out
due to card and action efficiency.
Hence, I'm thinking that something that addresses either the card
efficiency concern, or the action efficiency, or both, is more likely to
make more progress towards being a viable defence.
What I was hoping was that, say, Seductive Lies could bolster a Setite
deck that chooses not to go for out-of-clan Dominate - or whatever
similar permutation you can imagine for other cards.
SPORE
> And:
>
> - do you have any ideas that aren't bounce but that could be potentially
> viable bleed defence?
>
> James Coupe
how about vamps/allies that have reduction/cancellation capabilities:
Superhacker!
Ally w/ 1 life, 0 str, 0 bleed. Cost:2 pool
When Superhacker is untapped, bleeds against you using Laptop Computer
or Computer Hacking are reduced to 1.
Once per game, when an action modifier increases the value of a bleed,
tap Superhacker to cancel the effect of the modifier;
Superhacker gains 1 bleed when this happens.
Mixu the Hate-filled
Gangrel Antitribu
6 cap
CEL obf ani pro
If Mixu is untapped, he may tap and pay 2 blood to cause a bleed
action against you to fail if the action or any modifier used required
a discipline. -1 bleed.
or something more like this:
Untraceable Assets
Reaction
Only usable by a minion with a capacity/life greater than 4, who is
equipped with a Laptop Computer.
Reduce a bleed against you to 1 if it is not your predator's turn.
Reduce a bleed against you to 0 if it is your predator's turn, and
burn any Laptop Computer this minion has.
The Penalty Phase
Out-of-turn Master.
Usable when a minion has successfully bled you.
If the bleed was for 2, choose one of your vampires. Burn 2 blood
from that vampire to inflict 2 unpreventable damage to the acting
minion.
If the bleed was for 3 or more, as above, OR you may choose to burn a
vampire you control to burn the acting ally or younger vampire.
Ratted Out
Reaction
Animalism
ani: Usable when a minion has successfully bled you. Place this card
on the acting minion. The minion with this card is considered Red
List.
ANI: Tap this reacting minion to reduce a bleed against you to 1.
Faulty Information
Reaction
Chimerstry; cost 1 blood.
chi: The acting methuselah's predator pays the first pool of any
successful bleed.
CHI: Usable when you are successfully bled for 3 or more pool. You
pay the first 2 pool of this bleed; all additional pool is paid by the
acting methuselah.
Friends in Grave Places
Action
Thanatosis or Necromancy; cost 1 blood.
nec: burn a location.
than: do 2 damage to a minion who successfully bled you since your
last turn.
THAN: as a +1 stealth action, place this card on a minion your
predator controls. That minion cannot play modifiers or reactions
that require dominate, dementation, or auspex.
or a completely different approach:
Fractured Social Order
Gehenna Event
Requires 1 other Gehenna Event in play.
Successful bleeds are reduced to 1. For each pool reduced in this
way, put a counter on this card. Burn Fracture of Unlife when it has
10 or more counters.
or this:
Mad Beyond Mad
action
Dementation
dem: all players discard 2 cards at random.
DEM: put this card in play. burn it and lose 2 pool if any minion you
control bleeds. beginning with your next turn, when a bleed action is
announced, the methuselah being bled may discard any reaction card.
if they do so, the bleed is cancelled, and the cancelling methuselah
chooses a minion not controlled by the bleeding methuselah. The
announced action becomes "the acting minion enters combat with this
chosen minion." Any vampire with auspex may take an action to burn
Mad Beyond Mad.
although i don't think it's all that unbalanced now, it sure is fun to
make stuff up. i favor vote and bleed stoppers that result in
increased combat.
-john spore mage
Vincent
> Superhacker!
> Ally w/ 1 life, 0 str, 0 bleed. Cost:2 pool
> When Superhacker is untapped, bleeds against you using Laptop Computer
> or Computer Hacking are reduced to 1.
> Once per game, when an action modifier increases the value of a bleed,
> tap Superhacker to cancel the effect of the modifier;
> Superhacker gains 1 bleed when this happens.
>
>
> Reaction
> Only usable by a minion with a capacity/life greater than 4, who is
> equipped with a Laptop Computer.
> Reduce a bleed against you to 1 if it is not your predator's turn.
> Reduce a bleed against you to 0 if it is your predator's turn, and
> burn any Laptop Computer this minion has.
>
Wallpaper cards. Camera Phone have replaced Laptop Computers. Besides,
I don't really fear a deck that relies on Laptop Computers to bleed,
since it means bleed for 2 max. Anyway, too conditional cards are
never played.
Peter D Bakija
> Now, in draft, I think the +1 stealth/reduce by 2 card you suggest could
> be a monster. Or whatever other bread and butter inferior you can
> suggest. [pot] (D) Enter combat with a minion. / [POT] Reduce a bleed
> by 2. Whatever. But I think in constructed, it could still lose out
> due to card and action efficiency.
Oh, I think you are probably right--even something as flexible as +1
stealth/reduce a bleed by 2 is *still* going to be less good than
bounce as a defense. But on the up side, would give reasonably good
bleed defense to clans that otherwise lack such things and make them
flexible enough to be worth using. Yeah, the cost is still pretty
high--be untapped. But it would still be better than most of the
existing reduction out there, and would help the non bounce enabled
clans.
Like, really, at this point in the game, most decks go through the
following design steps:
A) Come up with deck concept.
B) Figure out how to get Dominate or Auspex in there, if for no other
reason than bounce.
C) Construct deck.
If viable, flexible reduction were an option for *non* Auspex/Dominate
disciplines, even if it is still less efficient than bounce (and the
lack of efficiency could be made up for with the flexibility of a
mixed card type--i.e. +1 stealth/reduce by 2 for example), this would
open up a great deal.
And I realize fully that Too Much Defense is bad for the game overall.
If every deck ever can be immune to bleeds, the game as a whole stalls
out. 'Cause as much as everyone hates being the first prey of some
sort of horrible bleedzooka S+B deck, such decks need to exist to make
sure games can actually end. Which is why I think it would be ok for
widespread, flexible bleed reduction to be less good than bounce. And
still have the cost of being untapped. I think if everyone had access
to "Reduce a bleed by 3. Useable while tapped", that would probably be
Too Much Defense. But taking the currently underutilized/
undereffective Bleed Reduction technology and making more widespread
and flexible (and out of the hands of the disciplines that already
have the most defense available), the game opens up more.
> Hence, I'm thinking that something that addresses either the card
> efficiency concern, or the action efficiency, or both, is more likely to
> make more progress towards being a viable defence.
Oh, sure--certainly a reasonable idea. But still, I suspect that going
too far in the direction of "it is incredibly easy for everyone to
defend from bleeds all the time" is probably bad for the game. But
giving something that is exactly as effective as (and somewhat more
flexible than) Telepathic Counter is already to non bounce paired
disciplines/clans would, for my money, help things immeasurably.
-Peter
Demnogonis Saastuttaja
Reaction, usable by a Sabbat vampire, even if tapped. Only usable when
you are being bled.
This reacting vampire enters combat with the acting vampire. If the
opposing minion is still ready at the end of the combat, the action is
resumed.
Kind of like what Yawp Court does. Coupled with some kind of a
permanent damage source, could be pretty hazardous for bleed decks
without combat cards, so they might have to use some actions for
rescues.
Matthew T. Morgan
> Examples:
>
> We Are Not Prey
> Reaction
> Animalism
> The reacting minion taps and burns 1 blood or life.
> [ani] Reduce this bleed by 3. If this bleed resolves for 0, the
> acting minion or a retainer on the acting minion, suffers 1
> unpreventable damage.
> [ANI] This bleed is redirected to your prey, unless they cannot be
> bled by the acting minion.
Good grief this card would be strong! This would be like the best card
ever. Animalism is already a very powerful defensive discipline. It
certainly doesn't need this!
> Glorious Presence
> Reaction
> Presence
> Only usable by a vampire with capacity 6 or greater.
> [pre] Burn 2 blood. Cancel a (D) action targeting this vampire as it
> is played. The acting minion untaps and may attempt a new action.
> [PRE] Burn 1 blood. Reduce a bleed against you by 3. If this bleed
> resolves for 0, place this card on the acting minion. They have -1
> bleed against you until they successfully bleed you.
This is also very strong, but I don't object to it quite as much.
> The Best Form of Defence
> Reaction
> Potence
> Only usable by a vampire with capacity 6 or greater during a (D)
> action against you.
> [pot] Burn 1 blood and tap this minion. The acting minion takes 1
> damage and if this action is a bleed reduce it by 2.
> [POT] Burn 1 blood and tap this minion. The current action is
> considered blocked by this reacting minion. Not usable on an
> unblockable action. You can only play this card at [POT] once per
> turn.
"Block succeeds" for potence? Yuck. The real problem with a card like
this is it just makes weenies stronger. Nergal bleed against the deck
running this? It would suck. Weenie dom? It wouldn't care.
Malone
> Extrala's blog is running a poll on bleed defence options, and bleed
> bounce for non-Dom/Aus disciplines, and so on.
>
> So, here's a random idea for non-bounce bleed defence. I've thrown it
> in Serpentis just as an essentially random choice. I'm interested as to
> whether the mechanic might be viable. Obviously, numbers can be tweaked
> a lot!
>
> Seductive Lies
> Serpentis, 1 blood, Action Modifier / Reaction
> [ser] [act mod] +1 bleed
> [ser] [react] Requires a vampire older than 4. Playable by a tapped
> vampire. Reduce a bleed against you by 2, and put this card on this
> reacting vampire. The vampire with this card has +1 bleed. Burn
> this card during your discard phase. A Methuselah can control only
> one Seductive Lies.
>
> Things I've been thinking about:
>
> - the general trend that, in a blind tournament, bleed reduction is
> typically weaker than bleed bounce, so trying to pick it up a bit
> - offering some offence along with it, in the way that bounce does
> - making it a tiny bit more flexible than bounce, in that the vampire
> with this card doesn't have to bleed (whereas using bounce forces you
> to aim the pool damage at someone)
> - it's usable in the end game
> - a simple, straightforward inferior that makes the card fairly
> straightforwardly usable without being stellar. (For other ideas, you
> could have something straightforward like stealth, a maneuver or
> press, or whatever else seems appropriate.)
>
> If a card similar using a mechanic similar to Seductive Lies were
> printed:
>
> - what discipline would you like it to go to
> - how much tweaking would it need to tempt you to include it in an
> appropriate deck?
>
> And:
>
> - do you have any ideas that aren't bounce but that could be potentially
> viable bleed defence?
>
> --
> James Coupe
> EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
> 13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
Your Serpentis suggestion is good. It's compatible with Ecstasy
(which is not such a bad card) and with common Setite strategies.
I hate the idea of 'bleed fails' cards, because of how much they'll
slow the game. With an appropriate cost, maybe in very small doses,
e.g. someone in this thread had a 'burn an animal retainer to reduce
bleed to 0' idea which seem ok to me.
Bounce cannot be brought into balance in terms of resources/rewards.
But it could be brought into balance in terms of risks/rewards. Right
now, having your bounce card canceled (when it's too late to block) is
the only risk. The number of cards that activate this risk could be
increased, or new risks could be devised.
Hypothetical Card 1
reaction
[ani for] Reduce a bleed against you by 3.
[ANI FOR] Usable when a card played by your predator or prey would
change the target of a bleed action. The target does not change.
HC2
action modifier
[cel obf] Only usable when a bleed action is declared. If the bleed
is successful, your prey burns 1 additional pool.
[CEL OBF] Only usable when a methuselah plays a card that would
change the target of this acting minion's bleed. The target does not
change.
HC3
1 blood
action modifier, only usable when resolving a successful bleed.
[chi] Your prey burns an additional pool.
[mel] The target methuselah burns 1 less pool and your prey burns 2
additional pool.
[MEL] The target methuselah burns 2 less pool and your prey burns 3
additional pool.
wedge
I think the problem is with bounce being better then it should have
been.
Bounce should have always had "Only usable when this vampire
successfully blocks"
Purple Haze
reaction
requires; Demintation
dem- Only usable when a minion is bleeding you. Tap this reacting
vampire. The minion is now bleeding an eligible Methuselah determine
randomly.
DEM- as above, and the acting minions controller is an eligible target
for this action.
When a Man Loves a Woman
reaction
requires; Serpentis
1 blood
ser- Only usable when a minion has bleed you. Tap this reacting
vampire. burn a corruption
counter that minions control burns one half the bleed (round up)
instead of you.
SER- as above, the corrupted minions controller burns for the bleed.
Martyr
action/ reaction
requires Obeah
obe- action; put this card on the acting minion. this minion may burn
X blood to reduce a bleed by X. Blood burned are placed on this card.
During you untap phase you may burn a counter to take a pool from your
prey and place it on this minion.
OBE- reaction, as above
SPORE
i'm quite aware that laptops have been replaced. the latter adds them
a tiny new raison d'etre.
the former, i must disagree, is not wallpaper. reduces computer hacks
(as well as the now-dreaded laptop.) is an ally for 2 pool that can
tap to cancel a bleed modifier as it's played, and thereafter the ally
has a bleed?
i suppose i should count your "no comment" on the several other cards
as a rave review...
librarian
> I did realize this was a thread for new cards.
>
> I think the problem is with bounce being better then it should have
> been.
> Bounce should have always had "Only usable when this vampire
> successfully blocks"
>
>
>
I like this idea. Of course, it would make wall decks even
more powerful; and there seems to be a design inclination to
move away from walls, due to the way they slow a game down.
best -
chris
Juggernaut1981
> > Reaction
> > Potence
> > Only usable by a vampire with capacity 6 or greater during a (D)
> > action against you.
> > [pot] Burn 1 blood and tap this minion. The acting minion takes 1
> > damage and if this action is a bleed reduce it by 2.
> > [POT] Burn 1 blood and tap this minion. The current action is
> > considered blocked by this reacting minion. Not usable on an
> > unblockable action. You can only play this card at [POT] once per
> > turn.
>
> "Block succeeds" for potence? Yuck. The real problem with a card like
> this is it just makes weenies stronger. Nergal bleed against the deck
> running this? It would suck. Weenie dom? It wouldn't care.
*Cough* 6+ cap card *cough*
Matt I hate weenie Pot too, hence the capacity requirement.
The animalism card probably is overkill, but it was a concept.
Vincent
Sure. It was just to point out that too-restrictive cards are never
played (Quicksilver Contemplation?).
Pullen
better reaction cards to help supplement a defense and and I think
making bounce less powerful could help to. So here are some ideas...
Challenging Roar
Type: Reaction/Combat
Requires: Animalism
Cost: 1 blood
Frenzy
[ani](Combat)Play before range is determined.The opposing vampire gets
+1 strength this round and can't use presses to end combat. This
vampire has a optional maneuver this round, only usable to maneuver to
close.
[ANI](Reaction)Only usable when you are being bled for more then 1.
Only usable if the acting vampire is younger then this reacting
vampire, untap the acting vampire and end the action, tap this
reacting vampire, the acting vampire enters combat with this reacting
vampire.
On the Run
Type: Reaction/Combat
Requires: Celerity
[cel] (Reaction/Combat) Cancel a card that would destroy or steal an
Equipment card you control.
[CEL](Reaction)Set the current bleed action to 1. Tap this reacting
vampire.
I WILL SEE YOU IN COURT!
Type: Reaction
Requires:Titled Vampire
Cost: 1 blood
Only usable during a bleed against you for more then 1
Tap this reacting vampire and end the current action, a new political
action is now started by the acting minion and blocks should be
determined as normal. If the action goes to referendum, then the
acting minion my allocate points among two or more Methuselahs.
Successful referendum means each Methuselah burns 1 pool for each
point assigned.
Bear Market my Ass!
Type: Master
Master. Trifle.
Put this card into play. Burn this card the next time a source would
cause you to lose pool, you gain 2X pool were X was the amount of pool
you lost. Not usable during your predators turn. Only one Bear Market
my Ass! can be played in a game.
Pullen
oops. forgot the "X points were X is the bleed total" part
BobbyDoc
I like the idea. How about:
card1:
inferiour: reduce a bleed with 1.
superiour: reduce a bleed with 1 and the next bleed against you is
reduced by 2.
card2:
inferiour: the bleeding minion do not untap as usual during his next
untap phase.
superiour: as above and reduce this bleed with 1.
card3:
cost 1 blood
inferiour: if this vampire fails to block a bleed, put this retainer
on this vampire. This retainer have 1 life and give +1 intercept
aginst bleeds.
superiour: as above and this retainer give an optional manouver if
this vampire blocks an bleed attempt.
cheers
robert
Matthew T. Morgan
I think you missed my point. If your predator is playing weenie dom, this
card doesn't help at all because you could've just blocked. If your
predator is playing a Nergal bleed deck, he's hopelessly screwed because
you can always stop his one big bleed and get into combat with Nergal
every turn.
Blooded Sand
> Bear Market my Ass!
> Type: Master
> Master. Trifle.
> Put this card into play. Burn this card the next time a source would
> cause you to lose pool, you gain 2X pool were X was the amount of pool
> you lost. Not usable during your predators turn. Only one Bear Market
> my Ass! can be played in a game.
Thought of Ancient influence here? or Maybe reins of power?
this is non unique, and a trifle.
my turn, i play 2 BMMA. I then cast ancient influence, with Arika. It
passes. I burn 5 pool, then gain 11 for Ancient, then gain 15 for the
2 BMMa. so i nett 21 pool, for one vote and 2 masters. Without voter
cap. Maybe a weeeeee bit strong?
Blooded Sand
sorry, i gain 20 for the 2 bmma. so net gain of 26.
Orange Devil
Last line of the hypothetical card you quoted suggests otherwise.
James Coupe
>If every deck ever can be immune to bleeds, the game as a whole stalls
>out. 'Cause as much as everyone hates being the first prey of some
>sort of horrible bleedzooka S+B deck, such decks need to exist to make
>sure games can actually end. Which is why I think it would be ok for
>widespread, flexible bleed reduction to be less good than bounce. And
>still have the cost of being untapped. I think if everyone had access
>to "Reduce a bleed by 3. Useable while tapped", that would probably be
>Too Much Defense.
Oh, I certainly wasn't suggesting that - and the superior of the card I
suggested is limited to once per turn. (Because it goes in play and is
one per Methuselah.)
However, as you say earlier:
>Like, really, at this point in the game, most decks go through the
>following design steps:
>
>A) Come up with deck concept.
>
>B) Figure out how to get Dominate or Auspex in there, if for no other
>reason than bounce.
>
>C) Construct deck.
And I think that's often true.
What I was thinking was that, say:
- The Setite deck that goes off into Dominate for bounce can stay with
that.
- Alternatively, the Setite deck that goes off into Dominate can decide
to stay with OBF/SER/PRE instead and have a comparable (even if not
equal) defence, possibly aided by being able to use smaller vampires
without out-of-clan Dominate.
- The Serpentis deck that isn't being constructed at the moment because
it lacks viable defence can be constructed.
And, obviously, substitute some other clans and disciplines in the above
if it goes to another deck. (This isn't a covert Setite crusade.)
What I'd be aiming for is not *more* defence in the game, but a greater
diversity of defence. So instead of a table with three Dominate users,
an Auspex bouncer and an Imbued deck, you might have two of the Dominate
users drop the Dominate out of their deck for something usable but
different. The overall amount of defence on that table would be
similar, but in a variety of different forms.
(Potentially, it could be fractionally less defence, if you say that
Dominate is 100% score for defence and the two decks using new options
are, say, 85-90% score for defence - close enough, but not equal.)
Peter D Bakija
> What I was thinking was that, say:
>
> - The Setite deck that goes off into Dominate for bounce can stay with
> that.
> - Alternatively, the Setite deck that goes off into Dominate can decide
> to stay with OBF/SER/PRE instead and have a comparable (even if not
> equal) defence, possibly aided by being able to use smaller vampires
> without out-of-clan Dominate.
> - The Serpentis deck that isn't being constructed at the moment because
> it lacks viable defence can be constructed.
>
> And, obviously, substitute some other clans and disciplines in the above
> if it goes to another deck. (This isn't a covert Setite crusade.)
Oh, I'm totally with you on the theory--I just suspect that the
concept of being able to reduce bleeds while tapped (which was just an
aspect of the idea you were discussing, but possibly a Dealbreaker, in
a design sense) is probably edging into the realm of "too handy". I'm
totally ok with reduction having the cost of "be untapped" (which
translates into "have a wake too" a lot of the time), as long as it is
reducing a bleed by at least 2.
> What I'd be aiming for is not *more* defence in the game, but a greater
> diversity of defence.
Oh, we are totally on the same page here--I don't think that having
viable bleed reduction for non bounce disciplines would significantly
increase the overall amount of defense in circulation. I suspect it
would just reduce the amount of bounce in circulation. Which would
allow for more diverse decks. Which is something, I suspect, everyone
would be in favor of.
-Peter
Blooded Sand
Still abusable, but yes, much less so
James Coupe
>concept of being able to reduce bleeds while tapped (which was just an
>aspect of the idea you were discussing, but possibly a Dealbreaker, in
>a design sense) is probably edging into the realm of "too handy". I'm
>totally ok with reduction having the cost of "be untapped" (which
>translates into "have a wake too" a lot of the time), as long as it is
>reducing a bleed by at least 2.
A thought occurs.
Bleed Defence
Action Modifier / Reaction
[disc] Some simple, utilitarian, useful inferior. Say, gain 2 votes.
[DISC] Reduce a bleed against you by 2. Instead of moving this card
to your ash heap, you may move it to your Research area instead.
Potentially, give the card a keyword - say, "Gossip" - which can be
shared with other similar cards. Give it a self-limiting text:
[DISC] Reduce a bleed against you by 2. When you play this card, you
may move it to your Research area (instead of your ash heap); if you
do so, move any other Gossip cards from your Research area to your ash
heap.
wedge
When a Man Loves a Woman
reaction
requires; Serpentis
1 blood
ser- Only usable when a minion has bleed you. Tap this reacting
vampire. Burn a corruption counter on a minion, that minions control
burns pool equal to one half the bleed (round up)
instead of you.
SER- as above, the corrupted minions controller burns pool for the
bleed.
Is better than bounce, but has a reduced opportunity to play.