[LSJ] "When an action is successful..." and House of Sorrow
Kushiel
Specifically, if one of my minions performs a successful action
requiring Necromancy and I have both Tower of London and House of
Sorrow untapped, may I gain two pool by tapping Tower, tapping House
to untap Tower, and then tapping Tower again, all before that window
closes?
John Eno
LSJ
Sure.
Chris Berger
This seems like the same wording as on Andre Leroux ("when a minion
you control bleeds successfully..."), which you ruled to be usable
only once each time the trigger is activated (which I agree with -
he's broken enough as it is without making things worse). How come
the Tower can be tapped twice in response to the trigger, but Andre
can only use his ability once?
LSJ
Mmm. Good point. I was only considering the duration of the window, not focusing
enough on the repeated use of the ability.
REVERSAL. While the window is indeed long enough, triggered abilities still
cannot be used multiple times in the window following the single trigger.
Kushiel
> REVERSAL. While the window is indeed long enough, triggered abilities still
If a theroetical card in play could be tapped for two different
abilities, both of which used the same trigger event, could both
abilities be used in conjunction with House of Sorrow?
eg:
Flames of Tension
Master. Put this card into play. Tap this card when a minion
controlled by your prey leaves the ready region to cause your prey to
burn one pool. Tap this card when a minion controlled by your prey
leaves the ready region to gain one pool.
If this card existed, and I had both it and House of Sorrow in play
untapped, and torporized one of my prey's vampires, could I both gain
a pool cause my prey to burn a pool? I assume that I could, since I
think that the two different effects count as different "triggered
abilities."
(Side note: choosing Flames of Insurrection to template the text for
my fabricated card made me realize for the first time that Flames of
Insurrection has no "Put this card into play" text. Errata,
presumably?)
Or to use a non-theoretical example (but one which I'm not sure is
totally analogous to the above one): I control Midget and Andre
Leroux. Midget bleeds successfully. May I both play Patterns in the
Chaos to look at my prey's hand and then use Andre's ability to reduce
the bleed by one?
John Eno
LSJ
> (Side note: choosing Flames of Insurrection to template the text for
> my fabricated card made me realize for the first time that Flames of
> Insurrection has no "Put this card into play" text. Errata,
> presumably?)
Sure. Unique. Call a referendum to burn. Must be in play. I'll correct the
official text.
> Or to use a non-theoretical example (but one which I'm not sure is
> totally analogous to the above one): I control Midget and Andre
> Leroux. Midget bleeds successfully. May I both play Patterns in the
> Chaos to look at my prey's hand and then use Andre's ability to reduce
> the bleed by one?
Patterns is played after resolving the bleed.
Andre (and Spying Mission) are played before.
Kushiel
> Patterns is played after resolving the bleed.
> Andre (and Spying Mission) are played before.
So "When a vampire you control successfully bleeds..." (Andre's text)
and "Only usable when a bleed would be successful..." (Spying
Mission's text) are synonymous, but "Only usable when a bleed is
successful..." (Patterns' text) isn't? It looks to me like Spying
Mission is the outlier of the three, given that it has the "would be"
verb conjugation that the other two lack.
Sorry to be a pain in the neck, but I'm trying to figure out the
reasoning behind this.
John Eno
Kushiel
If a theroetical card in play could be tapped for two different
abilities, both of which used the same trigger event, could both
abilities be used in conjunction with House of Sorrow?
eg:
Flames of Tension
Master. Put this card into play. Tap this card when a minion
controlled by your prey leaves the ready region to cause your prey to
burn one pool. Tap this card when a minion controlled by your prey
leaves the ready region to gain one pool.
If this card existed, and I had both it and House of Sorrow in play
untapped, and torporized one of my prey's vampires, could I both gain
a pool and cause my prey to burn a pool? I assume that I could, since
I
think that the two different effects count as different "triggered
abilities."
John Eno
LSJ
The effect of modifying the bleed amount is necessarily applied before resolving
the bleed.
Pullen
So does that mean I can't tap a Corporal Reservoir to prevent a damage
then tap House of Sorrow to untap it and prevent another point of
damage?
Pullen
Also does Corporal Reservoir untap text get around House of Sorrow's
does not untap text.
Corporal Reservoir
Type: Master
Master: trifle.
Put this card on any Black Hand vampire. This vampire may tap this
card to prevent 1 point of damage in combat or to gain a blood. This
card doesn't untap as normal. This vampire may burn a blood to untap
this card during his or her untap phase.
House of Sorrow
Type: Master
Cost: 1 pool
Master: unique location.
Tap to untap any card you control that is not a minion. If you do so,
neither that card nor this location untap as normal on your next untap
phase.
Thank you.
LSJ
No, it doesn't, since the key bit (re: trigger) doesn't apply.
> Also does Corporal Reservoir untap text get around House of Sorrow's
> does not untap text.
Yeah. Card text.
Chris Berger
> Kushiel wrote:
> > On Dec 29, 4:03 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> >> Patterns is played after resolving the bleed.
>
> > So "When a vampire you control successfully bleeds..." (Andre'stext)
> > and "Only usable when a bleed would be successful..." (Spying
> > successful..." (Patterns' text) isn't? It looks to me likeSpying
> > verb conjugation that the other two lack.
>
> > Sorry to be a pain in the neck, but I'm trying to figure out the
> > reasoning behind this.
>
> The effect of modifying the bleed amount is necessarily applied before resolving
> the bleed.
>
a ready titled vampire, and Andre reduces her bleed to 0, she still
untaps as normal next turn, right (aside from any other effects).
Lubo's text says: "If Lubomira successfully bleeds a Methuselah who
controls a ready titled vampire, she does not untap as normal during
her next untap phase." And technically, Andre's text says "when a
vampire you control successfully bleeds." So, I could see if Lubo
would stay tapped since Andre's ability triggers off a successful
bleed, and Lubo's detriment triggers off a successful bleed. However,
if that was true, then I would argue that you should also get the edge
before Andre reduces the bleed.
However, as you say above, "the effect of modifying the bleed amount
is necessarily applied before resolving the bleed," which would
indicate that technically Andre's ability is used just before the
bleed is actually successful (just like Spying Mission's "when a bleed
would be successful"), and thus nothing that triggers on a successful
bleed would happen if Andre makes it unsuccessful before it is fully
resolved... Right?
zora...@gmail.com
I think that, especially after this discussion, such a future card
would read
"Tap this card when a minion controlled by your prey leaves the ready
region. Either your prey burns one pool or you gain one pool (your
choice)."
or someting similar, to make it a single triggered effect.
FWIW, I find the idea of 'cards can only trigger once per trigger-
effect, regardless of untapping or window-length' to be a lot more
intuitive than otherwise. It's one of the reasons I hated the MtG
stack rules after 6th Ed so much.
- Teeka
LSJ
> And one last thing to be sure... If Lubomira bleeds a methuselah with
> a ready titled vampire, and Andre reduces her bleed to 0, she still
> untaps as normal next turn, right (aside from any other effects).
> Lubo's text says: "If Lubomira successfully bleeds a Methuselah who
> controls a ready titled vampire, she does not untap as normal during
> her next untap phase."
Yes.