?: Illusions of the Kindred

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Steve Wampler

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Oct 1, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/1/97
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OK, a rule question.
The traditional use for Illusions of the Kindred is to get out an
100% expendable vampire to pay for the Horrid Reality and take your
opponents damage in combat. However, it recently occured to me that
it might also be the ultimate strike combat ends. You play it before
range and it isn't technically a S:CE, so it cant be stopped (well, TB
and DI counter it, but those're cheesy, and Watenda could counter it,
but WHY?). Get out of combat for 2 blood. Pretty useful for my
Ravnos deck, which gets into a number of fights equal to the sum of
the number of actions taken by people I can block...
Whether or not you can use the card effectively for this purpose
depends on whether or not you can play it if you have no crypt. If
you need to have a vampire there to be the illusion, then the number
of possible uses is reduced to about 8 per game, which isn't quite
enough.
As far as I can tell, the arguments pro and con go like this:
1) The wording is "Play before range is chosen. Combat ends.
[get a vampire for free]." When you play the card, you do each step
at a time until you find one you can't do, so combat ends and nothing
else happens.
2) You cant play a card unless it can all happen. (No sup.
bonding if you don't need stealth)
3) The intent of the card is obviously to get the vamp, so you
should have to have a crypt.
4) Whether or not a combat begins with the new expendable vampire
has very little game effect, because few people bother to fight when
they cant get ahead (the vamp is doomed anyway) and no one is going to
work to save the "good as burned already" vampire.
5) The "real world" idea of the card is to make an illusion of
someone for the guy who's about to kick your ass to fight instead.
Using the card as just a S:CE fits this idea.
6) If you REALLY want to pay 2 for a S:CE, we're gonna let you.

What do people think?
--
Steve "I Bled Someone for 14 Pool in One Turn Because of a
Misdirection" Wampler, creator of the "Spend 29 Pool on Vampires and
Get Bled for One and Die™" deck
sjwa...@hotmail.com (ignore the above adress, its plain brown wrong)

John Whelan

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Oct 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/2/97
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In article <60uhik$c...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, Steve Wampler wrote:
>OK, a rule question.
> The traditional use for Illusions of the Kindred is to get out an
>100% expendable vampire to pay for the Horrid Reality and take your
>opponents damage in combat. However, it recently occured to me that
>it might also be the ultimate strike combat ends. You play it before
>range and it isn't technically a S:CE, so it cant be stopped (well, TB
>and DI counter it, but those're cheesy, and Watenda could counter it,
>but WHY?). Get out of combat for 2 blood. Pretty useful for my
>Ravnos deck, which gets into a number of fights equal to the sum of
>the number of actions taken by people I can block...

Yeah it is a powerful card. Better in every way than, say, Mercy for the
Weak, which also costs 2 blood. Compared to Earth Meld or Majesty, it has
advantages and disadvantages:

Advantages
1) Cannot be foiled by Dog Pack or Immortal Grapple.
2) Your opponent does not escape the dangers of combat as you do.

Disadvantages
1) You don't have a chance to untap at superior
2) Costs 2 blood.
3) Costs the loss of 1 vampire from your crypt.

> Whether or not you can use the card effectively for this purpose
>depends on whether or not you can play it if you have no crypt. If
>you need to have a vampire there to be the illusion, then the number
>of possible uses is reduced to about 8 per game, which isn't quite
>enough.

I would argue that the loss of a vampire from your crypt should be part of
the card's cost, because otherwise the advantages outweigh the
disadvantages rather too heavily.

Anyway, this cost can easily be circumvented by having a large crypt. If
you construct a deck around "Illusions of the Kindred", you could easily
have a deck with 2 of each Ravnos for a total crypt size of 26. You could
have 20 "Illustions of the Kindred" in your deck without danger of running
out of crypt cards (though I suspect your active vampires might start
running out of blood).

John W.

Steve Bucy

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Oct 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/2/97
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This is old news to me. I have been using it for combat ends for a while. I
have a pretty good sneak steal and bleed Ravnos deck that uses them this
way. You have to pack some restorations to afford it though.

--
Steve Bucy

I'd be better off undead...

"I was dead, but I'm better now" - John Sheridan

Steve Wampler <"sek10"@cornell SHA.edu> wrote in article
<60uhik$c...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>...


> OK, a rule question.
> The traditional use for Illusions of the Kindred is to get out an
> 100% expendable vampire to pay for the Horrid Reality and take your
> opponents damage in combat. However, it recently occured to me that
> it might also be the ultimate strike combat ends. You play it before
> range and it isn't technically a S:CE, so it cant be stopped (well, TB
> and DI counter it, but those're cheesy, and Watenda could counter it,
> but WHY?). Get out of combat for 2 blood. Pretty useful for my
> Ravnos deck, which gets into a number of fights equal to the sum of
> the number of actions taken by people I can block...

> Whether or not you can use the card effectively for this purpose
> depends on whether or not you can play it if you have no crypt. If
> you need to have a vampire there to be the illusion, then the number
> of possible uses is reduced to about 8 per game, which isn't quite
> enough.

LSJ

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Oct 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/2/97
to vte...@oracle.wizards.com

Steve Wampler <"sek10"@cornell SHA.edu> wrote:
> OK, a rule question.
>[Illusions of the Kindred used for ending combat when Crypt is empty]

> Whether or not you can use the card effectively for this purpose
> depends on whether or not you can play it if you have no crypt.

Yes, you can. If IoK is played when you have an empty crypt, then
it simply ends combat and the rest of the effect is lost. (*)

> If
> you need to have a vampire there to be the illusion, then the number
> of possible uses is reduced to about 8 per game, which isn't quite
> enough.

Side Note: 12 is the *minimum* number of vampires you can have in your
Crypt (to start the game). There is no maximum. (Of course, adding more
vampires reduces the likelyhood of starting with four useful vampires.

> As far as I can tell, the arguments pro and con go like this:
> 1) The wording is "Play before range is chosen. Combat ends.
> [get a vampire for free]." When you play the card, you do each step
> at a time until you find one you can't do, so combat ends and nothing
> else happens.

This is the way I see it.

> 2) You cant play a card unless it can all happen. (No sup.
> bonding if you don't need stealth)

You can play Magic of the Smith even if you have no equipment remaining
in your library (even if your library is empty).

> 3) The intent of the card is obviously to get the vamp, so you
> should have to have a crypt.

"intent" doesn't go as far as it used to. :-)

--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com)
Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
(*) - Subject to review by Rules Team

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gertjan

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Oct 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/2/97
to

John Whelan wrote:
>
> LSJ, here's another "Illusions of the Kindred" question for you:
>
> Suppose my opponent plays "Illusions...." and I immediately follow by
> playing "Psyche" at superior to start a new combat with the minion for
> whom combat just ended. What happens?

If i remember well, Psyche says: BOTH combatants must be ready.
>
> Is it concievable to have 2 on 1 combat in Jyhad?
>
> John W.

--
Gert-Jan van der Heijden ger...@engin.umich.edu *#*
temporary living in the USA 1910 hill st 48104-2644 ANN ARBOR. (^ ^)
tel nr 001 (313) 769 5665 ?
\_/
Dutch adress: bazaar 35 7552 KP hengelo tel nr +31 74 2918510

John Whelan

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Oct 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/2/97
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LSJ, here's another "Illusions of the Kindred" question for you:

Suppose my opponent plays "Illusions...." and I immediately follow by
playing "Psyche" at superior to start a new combat with the minion for
whom combat just ended. What happens?

Is it concievable to have 2 on 1 combat in Jyhad?

John W.

James Coupe

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Oct 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/2/97
to

In article <60uhik$c...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, Steve Wampler
<"sek10"@cornell.SHA.edu> writes

>OK, a rule question.
> The traditional use for Illusions of the Kindred is to get out an
>100% expendable vampire to pay for the Horrid Reality and take your
>opponents damage in combat. However, it recently occured to me that
>it might also be the ultimate strike combat ends. You play it before
>range and it isn't technically a S:CE, so it cant be stopped (well, TB
>and DI counter it, but those're cheesy, and Watenda could counter it,
>but WHY?). Get out of combat for 2 blood. Pretty useful for my
>Ravnos deck, which gets into a number of fights equal to the sum of
>the number of actions taken by people I can block...
> Whether or not you can use the card effectively for this purpose
>depends on whether or not you can play it if you have no crypt. If
>you need to have a vampire there to be the illusion, then the number
>of possible uses is reduced to about 8 per game, which isn't quite
>enough.
> As far as I can tell, the arguments pro and con go like this:
> 1) The wording is "Play before range is chosen. Combat ends.
>[get a vampire for free]." When you play the card, you do each step
>at a time until you find one you can't do, so combat ends and nothing
>else happens.

No - when combat ends and a card does something in addition to it, that
resolves outside of combat which is all well and good. The best example
of this is Rotschreck which has Combat Ends in the first line, IIRC.

The Rest of IotK carries on but ouside combat.

> 2) You cant play a card unless it can all happen. (No sup.
>bonding if you don't need stealth)

This was my personal defence for not allowing Form of Mist to be played
by a defending (ie non-acting) minion at superior. Didn't get it past
LSJ though.

> 3) The intent of the card is obviously to get the vamp, so you
>should have to have a crypt.

Hmmmm.... I would have to agree here.

> 4) Whether or not a combat begins with the new expendable vampire
>has very little game effect, because few people bother to fight when
>they cant get ahead (the vamp is doomed anyway) and no one is going to
>work to save the "good as burned already" vampire.

Not so. There is at least one net deck which revolves around large
vampires only and IotK. It gets out one or two big vampire (with sup
chi) and then IotK's at every available opportunity - using other things
like Horrid Reality to get out big guns and weapons (and hope like hell
you've got DBR in your hand).

> 5) The "real world" idea of the card is to make an illusion of
>someone for the guy who's about to kick your ass to fight instead.
>Using the card as just a S:CE fits this idea.

I create an illusion of someone to kick your ass. No-one appears, you
don't get your ass kicked by them, you come and kick the crap out of me.

> 6) If you REALLY want to pay 2 for a S:CE, we're gonna let you.
>

Well, it's basically an S:CE anyway, because this vamp doesn't get
pummelled.

> What do people think?

Well, IMHO, the card does, of course, carry on after the Combat Ends
effect. You would, IMHO, have to have vampires in your crypt to play
the card. If you're running out of vampires then put more in your crypt
to start with. Unfortunately, there aren't really enough different
Ravnos so you're going to have to duplicate a lot of them. We want more
Ravnos!

--

James Coupe (remove .nospam to reply by e-mail)

If you find you are falling into madness - dive

John Whelan

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Oct 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/2/97
to gertjan

On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, gertjan wrote:

> John Whelan wrote:
> >
> > LSJ, here's another "Illusions of the Kindred" question for you:
> >
> > Suppose my opponent plays "Illusions...." and I immediately follow by
> > playing "Psyche" at superior to start a new combat with the minion for
> > whom combat just ended. What happens?
>

> If i remember well, Psyche says: BOTH combatants must be ready.

As is the case here. Neither are torporized, paralyzed, burned, removed
from the game, or banished to the uncontrolled region. Therefore they are
both ready. By "both" I am referring to the two "real" minions and not to
the illusory one, with whom combat has only just begun.

John W.

LSJ

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Oct 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/3/97
to

John Whelan <jbwh...@amanda.dorsai.org> wrote:
> LSJ, here's another "Illusions of the Kindred" question for you:
> Suppose my opponent plays "Illusions...." and I immediately follow by
> playing "Psyche" at superior to start a new combat with the minion for
> whom combat just ended. What happens?

Good question.

Based on the precedent of trying to play Fast Reaction after Hidden
Lurker (i.e.: Hidden Lurker precludes the play of Fast Reaction), I'd
have to say that Psyche cannot be played after Illusions of Kindred
(unless no combat results from the Illusions - when the crypt is empty).

By the time Illusions finishes up, you are no longer "at the end of
combat when both combatants..." - you are long past that combat.

Steve Wampler

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Oct 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/3/97
to

Steve Bucy wrote:
>
> This is old news to me. I have been using it for combat ends for a while. I
> have a pretty good sneak steal and bleed Ravnos deck that uses them this
> way. You have to pack some restorations to afford it though.
>
> --
> Steve Bucy
>
> I'd be better off undead...
>
> "I was dead, but I'm better now" - John Sheridan

That was the plan...

LSJ

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Oct 7, 1997, 3:00:00 AM10/7/97
to

John M. Baker wrote:
>
> LSJ <vte...@wizards.com> wrote in article
> <8758815...@dejanews.com>...

> > Based on the precedent of trying to play Fast Reaction after Hidden
> > Lurker (i.e.: Hidden Lurker precludes the play of Fast Reaction), I'd
> > have to say that Psyche cannot be played after Illusions of Kindred
> > (unless no combat results from the Illusions - when the crypt is empty).
> >
> > By the time Illusions finishes up, you are no longer "at the end of
> > combat when both combatants..." - you are long past that combat.
> >
> Except what about the Form of Mist/Psyche question? Does
> "the action continues" mean less than "a new combat begins" then?

Break it down and follow card text, and everything becomes clear:

1. Combat (from block)
2. Form of Mist resolves, ending combat and action continues
3. Psyche?

1. Combat (from block or whatever)
2. Illusions of Kindred is played, ending combat and starting another
3. Combat (with the Illusion)
4. Psyche?

In the first case, Psyche can be played at step 3, since combat was
just completed and both combatants are ready.

In the second case, Pshyche cannot be played, since both combatants
from the combat that was just completed are not ready (the Illusion
has been removed from the game). It cannot be played to restart
combat between the two combatants in step 1, since that combat
hasn't just ended (you're not "at the end of" that combat, which is
required by card text).

Psyche could not be played between steps 3 and 4 of the second example
for the same reason that Fast Reaction cannot be played after Hidden
Lurker - the two cards want to start two different combats, so the
first one played wins.

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