[Newsletter] Official Malkavian Antitribu Newsletter, November 2004
Ector
VOLUME IV, Issue II
1. INTRODUCTION
In the previous newsletter, I claimed that Malkavians antitribu have
only one tournament-viable strategy (Stealth-Bleed), and the fact is
pretty bad for the game. Surely, each clan has its strengths and
weaknesses, but if the weaknesses are so huge that only one deck
strategy is playable, this situation must be fixed. Would the game be
interesting enough if Brujah could play only rush decks, Ventrue could
play only voting decks and so on? I really hope that LSJ is reading
this... since I'm going to explain the reasons of this situation now,
and I've got a few ideas about fixing it.
This newsletter is all about COMBAT. To my mind, the primary reason of
non-stealth-bleed decks' weakness is the complete inability to survive
combat with the other vampires. Since combat is the important and very
appealing part of the game, and it increases interaction between
players, the rules make avoiding it difficult enough, which is right.
Any deck wants to do something, and when your minion gets intercepted,
combat ensues. Likewise, any deck wants to blocks something, entering
combat as well. And there are rush decks that attack opponent's
minions directly.
Now, for God's sake, tell me, why Malkavians antitribu cannot do
ANYTHING in combat? Surely, our clan wasn't designed to be
combat-oriented, but why we cannot even run away from combat? Is it a
vicious curse that weakens our legs? I'm aware only of our dementia,
and if the designers really tried to simulate the World of Darkness in
the card game, the madmen should be quite dangerous combatants (at
least some of them). This should be simulated via creating some really
dangerous combat cards based on Dementation, or some really dangerous
anti-Malkavian vampires, or both. And it would be great to have a
"combat ends" card to run away from combat, even if it wouldn't be as
effective as Majesty or Earth Meld.
2. HERE WE ARE
Let's assume that a combat deck usually tries to send opposing vampire
into torpor or at least leave him or her without blood. From the
defender's perspective, combat strategies can be roughly divided into
three categories:
A). Single-strike combat. This strategy tries to torporize opponent's
vampire with just a single strike, usually accompanied with the other
combat cards. The most powerful example is Immortal Grapple/Disarm
strategy, but there are also Protean-based Claws, Vicissitude-based
aggravated strikes and so on. To avoid the carnage, we can use dodges
(except for the Immortal Grapple) or maneuvers. Escaping through these
cards won't be easy, however, since the combat-oriented decks should
be prepared for them. Theoretically, we can use 10 Dodges and 10 Fakes
Out (or more), but in practice this would make our deck pointless.
This might be reasonable if your metagame is filled with "aggravated"
decks, but in the other case you'd be forced to discard these combat
cards to find something useful. Keep in mind that these cards won't
save you from all kinds of combat strategies anyway.
B). Multiple-strike combat. The most effective multi-strike strategy
uses Blurs and Pursuits, usually with a good ranged weapon like .44
Magnum. Most such strategies use Celerity, though you may eventually
encounter Black Metamorphosis, Imposing Phantasm or even Octopod. What
can we do against this strategy? Maneuvers are generally useless,
since our opponent can strike at any distance, and we can dodge only
the first strike. If we could stay at close range we could play
Personal Scourge, but this is unreliable as most popular weapons have
inbuilt maneuver. If only we had a "combat ends" card, it would be a
saviour...unfortunately, we don't have it. The only hope is Ivory Bow;
if you manage to get it, it would be quite effective unless the
opposing minion can prevent 1 damage. If you don't have the
Bow...welcome into torpor, fellow!
C). Multiple-round combat. The most "weird" strategy is usually based
on "not usable on the first round of combat" cards or constant
damage-dealing cards like Carrion Crows or Weather Control. To be
effective, such decks generally have to stay at long range and use
"healing" cards like Theft of Vitae or Taste of Vitae. They also need
presses or Traps to continue combat for several rounds. The best
defense against such decks is a press to end combat, though it
wouldn't be too effective against other combat strategies.
Nevertheless, we have Deny, which is a versatile card that can be used
to increase stealth, especially with a "classic" crypt based on
superior Dementation. Unfortunately, this card is Rare, and in most
cases it isn't as useful as Swallowed by the Night (Common), which
provides stealth for all our vampires or maneuver for the most
important ones.
Now, let's browse our "combat arsenal".
3. CARDS OF THE MONTH (poverty isn't a vice, you know...)
The following cards can be used by vampires of our clan, and, to be
quite frank, I don't like the cards at all. Maybe, similar cards would
shine for another clans, but Malkavians antitribu cannot use them
effectively enough. I'm wasting time describing these cards just to
describe the reasons of their relatively low popularity in Malkavian
antitribu decks.
Name: Disguised Weapon
[Jyhad:C, VTES:C, Sabbat:C, SW:C, CE:C/PM2]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Obfuscate
Only usable before range is chosen if you have a weapon card in your
hand.
[obf] Equip this vampire with that weapon (and pay cost to equip as
normal).
[OBF] As above, but usable when choosing a strike.
This is probably the best combat strategy available for our clan. Get
Ivory Bow, or Flamethrower, or .44 Magnum and shoot! If you manage to
play this when the opponent already declared his strike, he will be
unable to dodge, even if he has the card. Unfortunately, this strategy
requires too many slots in your deck, and the deck still would not be
as effective in combat as Celerity-based Concealed Magnum decks, since
we have no additional strikes.
There are other problems as well. How many Disguised Weapons and how
many weapons would you like to use? I tried four D.W. and six weapons
in a stealth-bleed deck, but didn't got a chance to disguise anything
in several games. By the way, any "stealth & something" deck has very
little free space, since it has to contain stealth cards and primary
strategy cards (i.e. bleed cards in a stealth-bleed deck).
Does anybody want to dump stealth and play bruise and bleed with
Disguised weapons? You can try if you wish... but IMHO this strategy
is still much weaker than the other combat strategies, and it's also
very fragile. Ivory Bow is unique, so you cannot use many copies of
it, and it's very likely to be contested; moreover, if somebody
torporize a vamp with the Bow, it would attract diablerie.
Flamethrower is very expensive, and Magnums aren't too dangerous
without additional strikes.
This card is excellent when Cailean disguises Mark V rifle, but our
clan lacks support needed to use it effectively.
Name: Coma
[Sabbat:U, SW:U, CE:U, BH:PM3]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 3 blood
Discipline: Dementation
[dem] Strike: opposing vampire goes into torpor.
[DEM] As above, and that vampire does not untap as normal during his
or her controller's next untap phase.
What a mad card! You pay three blood AND take all damage inflicted by
the opposing vampire just to send him or her into torpor. Guess what
are your chances to avoid being torporized yourself? Even if you were
hit for a mere two damage, you've lost five blood total. Your opponent
lost two blood needed to rescue his vampire from torpor and an action
(or two actions, if you played Coma at superior). Is there anything to
celebrate?
Things are better if you can do something with the torporized vampire.
If you have votes or allies with votes, you can just diablerize the
vampire - preferably with the vampire that played Coma to restore
blood on the vamp. If you don't have enough votes, you can sacrifice
Yorik or even Claven to get rid of the torporized vampire - this is
usually worthy if the vampire is really dangerous (Theo Bell or Beast
are the worst - die, stupid bullies!) Yet another way is Sacrificial
Lamb, but you are unlikely to play it with the same vampire, since it
also costs three blood... Obviously, Coma is most effective when you
are blocking your predator - the torporized vampire is less likely to
be resqued by his owner or the owner's ally.
Coma is a pure defensive card just because it's a very expensive
strike that can be dodged. Your enemies have many different ways to
avoid it - playing Immortal Grapple, maneuvering to long range or
simply draining blood from your vampire (for instance, a Tremere can
maneuver and play Theft of Vitae on the first round, and you won't be
able to play Coma on the second). Coma itself is very ineffective,
though it becomes better if you have votes and can diablerize the
victim.
Note that Obtenebration-based Entombment is similar to Coma, but
Entombment has a wonderful support, since you can play it after Arms
of the Abyss or gain a second strike for it from Black Metamorphosis.
Alas, Coma hasn't any support at all.
Most of the time Coma is used as a "fear card" - you play Coma once,
and this should make other players fear it for the remaining rounds of
the tournament :) Unfortunately, the card will hardly scare the
professional players...
Name: Voice of Madness
[SW:U, CE:U]
Cardtype: Reaction
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Dementation
Only usable when this vampire successfully blocks an ally or younger
vampire.
[dem] Tap this reacting vampire. Combat does not occur.
[DEM] As above, and the acting minion burns 1 blood or life.
This card has too many requirements to be really playable. Your
vampire must be older than the opponent's, and (s)he must block the
enemy. The most dangerous rush vampires are Theo Bell, Beast, Jeremy
MacNeil (adv) etc. that can rush even without spending any cards.
These vampires' capacity is 7 or 8, so you need at least 9-capacity
vampire to play Voice of Madness against them. Now recall that our
clan tries to avoid using huge vampires. We prefer having two small
vampires (Claven and Uncle George, for instance) to one Vasantasena,
since it's much easier to torporize one vampire than two, and it's
much easier to bounce his bleed. But you're planning to use Voice of
Madness, which should protect your vampire, right?
Well, even if you get a huge vampire, you will still be unable to use
many Voices, since this would require a host of Wakes or Forced
Awakenings. Large vampires usually do something, so your vampire is
likely to be tapped during opponent's turn. If the Beast would rush
you, you would have to play Wake card and Voice of Madness. Look, you
have to spend two cards just to counter an action that doesn't require
cards at all! Obviously, this cannot last forever, and very soon
you'll lack Wake or Voice, and your "giant" will be torporized. And I
even didn't mentioned that you might need intercept to block +1
stealth rush action provided by Haven Uncovered, Alastor, Nose of the
Hound and many other cards!
An additional problem hides in the cost of this card. One blood isn't
very much, but if you plan to use many Voices, this becomes a problem.
If you plan to use extra Telepathic Misdirections for +1 intercept,
this only increases the problem, since the card also costs 1 blood.
All in all, Voice of Madness sometimes can save your vampire, but it's
very unreliable.
After all, just try to compare this card to Obedience! Your untapped
vampire can play Obedience for free and stay untapped to play further
Obediences or Deflections. If your vampire is a target of the rush,
(s)he doesn't have to block the action, so you aren't forced to
include intercept cards. And if you can play Second Tradition, you may
untap a vampire, block, play Obedience, and the vampire will remain
untapped. Pitiful enough, Voice of Madness is just a pale shadow of
Obedience.
Name: Escaped Mental Patient
[Sabbat:U, SW:U, BH:PM2]
Cardtype: Ally
Clan: Malkavian antitribu
Cost: 2 pool
Mortal with 1 life. 1 strength, 0 bleed.
Escaped Mental Patient can enter combat with any minion controlled by
another Methuselah as a (D) action. The Patient can make a hand strike
at +1 damage, aggravated. Burn him at the end of combat if he does so.
Yet another "fear card". Patient is played to prevent your vampires
from rushes, because the Patient can block the attack and send the
attacker into torpor. Most of the time this won't prevent +1 stealth
attacks (unless The Unmasking is in play), but it really can prevent
an Immortal Grapple deck from attacking you if the player currently
has no maneuvers. The Patient's aggravated strike is still a hand
strike, so Immortal Grapple doesn't prohibit it.
Unfortunately, Escaped Mental Patient is almost guaranteed to die in
combat unless your opponent will refuse to kill him. And your opponent
can avoid his aggravated strike quite easily, especially when you are
rushing with the Patient. When you rush, you declare strike first, and
if you declare aggravated strike, a simple Dodge would be enough to
prevent the strike and destroy your Patient. Things would be radically
different if you play Rotshreck, though, since the card will send
opposing vampire into torpor, and your Patient will SURVIVE, because
his strike never resolves. Likewise, a vampire with Fortitude can
prevent Patient's damage unless you play Rotshreck. Looks like the
Rotshreck is essential for any deck using Patients, and it works
nicely with Ivory Bow as well.
Clearly, any ranged strike would kill the Patient, though you could
use Fakes Out to maneuver back to close range. The Patient cannot do
almost anything against a Magnum/Blur strategy, since the Magnum
provides a free maneuver each combat.
In most cases, Escaped Mental Patient isn't worth paying 2 pool. A
Master card that could send any vampire into torpor would probably
worth 2 pool and even more, but the Patient is too fragile and
unreliable. To my mind, Muddled Vampire Hunter is much better, since
it has a decent chance to torporize a vampire with low blood and
survive, and even if the opposing vampire has a lot of blood, losing
four blood would be quite painful to him. Muddled Vampire Hunter works
without any support (Rotshrecks etc).
Nevertheless, Escaped Mental Patient has some advantages, and with a
proper support it may prove itself even more dangerous than Hunter.
Unlike the Hunter, Patient is not unique, so you can recruit an army
of them and use the army to torporize unwanted vampires. The price is
steep, but it can be reduced with Charisma and Sunset Strip,
Hollywood, and if you manage to get both cards, you will be able to
summon Patients for free! This idea is used in my Deck of the Month,
which is very funny, but definitely not tournament-viable.
4. VAMPIRES OF THE MONTH
Name: Muriel Foucade
[Sabbat:V, SW:U]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Malkavian antitribu
Group: 2
Capacity: 5
Discipline: aus DEM
Sabbat: +1 strength.
Superior Dementation on a 5-capacity vampire is very good, but lack of
Obfuscate really hurts. She certainly can play Confusion, Mind Tricks
or Deny to get stealth without Obfuscate, and if
Dementation-only-based weenie deck did exist, Muriel would become its
primary vampire. Unfortunately, there are just a few weenies with
Dementation, and the cheapest vampire with superior Dementation costs
five (except for Midget, which ends up being even more expensive).
Obfuscate-based stealth cards are the most powerful, and most vampires
with Dementation have Obfuscate. Thus, if you're going to use Muriel
in a stealth-based deck, you should pack some Obfuscate skill cards.
They never hurt, since the majority of cheap bleeders (Persia, Uncle
George, Yourik, Claven) have only inferior Obfuscate.
Muriel's +1 strength (on a five-capacity vampire!) would be highly
appreciated if only she had at least one combat Discipline. It's
possible to create a "weenie rush" deck based on cheap vampires with
+1 strength (Hadrian Garrick, Parmenides etc), a lot of Potence skill
cards, Immortal Grapples and Disarms, and Muriel Foucade would shine
in that deck too.
If you are familiar with vampire "points" you should notice that
Muriel is underpowered. A vampire of her capacity should have five
points, and Muriel worth only three points for Disciplines plus 1.5
points for +1 strength equals 4.5 points. To my mind, +1 strength
should cost 1.5 points only for the vampires able to benefit from this
ability - e.g. vampires with combat Disciplines like Potence or
Celerity. Muriel's ability should be priced at 1 point, so she has
only 4 points instead of five.
As you can see, Muriel has potential to be used in different decks,
but she needs some support to be effective. Wise Methuselah usually
prefer ready-to-use vamps.
Name: Ruth McGinley
[CE:V, Anarchs:PAG]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Malkavian
Group: 3
Capacity: 6
Discipline: aus cel obf DEM
Camarilla primogen: Ruth gets first strike when striking with a gun.
Ruth is a Camarilla Malk, but she's quite useful in most
anti-Malkavian stealth-bleed decks, since she has a "classic"
stealth-bleed combination of Disciplines (obf and DEM). Unfortunately,
her capacity is six, and that means she has to compete with stars like
Dolphin Black and Artemis. Ruth can offer a vote and an interesting
ability, but in a stealth-bleed deck all these tricks aren't as
valuable as superior Obfuscate.
To abuse Ruth's ability, you should give her a good gun - preferably a
"peacemaker" able to kill the opposing vampires, leaving them without
a chance to strike back. You should use a gun with inbuilt maneuver to
have greater chances against Immortal Grapples. Surely, you can use
maneuver cards, but they aren't as reliable as inbuilt maneuvers.
Unfortunately, the gun selection is limited, and in most cases you'll
have to choose between cheap and effective .44 Magnum and expensive
but powerful Assault Rifle. If you prefer aggravated strikes, you can
use Dragon's Breath Rounds + Saturday-Night Specials instead, and if
your Ruth is going to intercept most of the time, Sniper Rifle may be
the best.
Ruth would be great in a Malkavian Disguised Weapon/Celerity based
deck. Camarilla Malkavians have many good vampires with Celerity
except for the Ruth (Zoe, Victoria, Quentin King III (adv) and even
Leandro himself), while our clan can offer only The Colonel and
Artemis. Camarilla Malks can use their stunning Justicar, Maris
Streck, to make Ruth an Alastor with an Assault Rifle just for 2 pool!
And Ruth would be able to attack any vampire as +1 stealth action!
Unfortunately, poor Malkavians antitribu can use only her
Disciplines...
5. DECK OF THE MONTH (JUST FOR FUN!)
In the previous newsletter I offered an exercise to my readers just to
prove that the only viable anti-Malkavian deck is stealth-bleed. I
even claimed that creating anti-Malkavian rush deck requires superior
Dementation. Here's my own attempt to make the exercise... not exactly
a rush deck, but it can rush, not exactly an intercept deck, but it
can block, and not exactly a bleed deck, but it still can bleed. This
deck is absolutely insane, and it should prove my level of Dementation
:)
"Freedom to the Mental Patients!", by Ilya Ginsburg
Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 3 max: 9 average: 6.67
------------------------------------------------------------
4x Maris Streck 9 AUS OBF ani dem dom justicar
Malkavian:3
2x Korah 7 AUS DEM OBF ani priscus
!Malkavian:2
2x Marie Faucigny 7 AUS OBF dem tha archbishop
!Malkavian:3
2x General Perfidio Dios 5 AUS dem obf bishop
!Malkavian:3
2x Yorik 3 dem obf
!Malkavian:2
Library [90 cards]
------------------------------------------------------------
Master [16]
1x Barrens, The
5x Blood Doll
1x Charisma
1x Hungry Coyote, The
1x Information Highway
6x Rotschreck
1x Sunset Strip, Hollywood
Action [12]
3x Call, The
2x Pulse of the Canaille
1x Revelations
6x Sibyl's Tongue
Action Modifier [17]
3x Cloak the Gathering
3x Elder Impersonation
3x Faceless Night
3x Lost in Crowds
5x Spying Mission
Political Action [6]
2x Banishment
4x Parity Shift
Reaction [13]
7x Telepathic Misdirection
6x Wake with Evening's Freshness
Ally [8]
8x Escaped Mental Patient
Combat [8]
8x Fake Out
Equipment [3]
2x Ivory Bow
1x Laptop Computer
Event [2]
1x Blood Weakens
1x Unmasking, The
Combo [5]
5x Swallowed by the Night
------------------------------------------------------------
Obviously, the focus card of this deck is Escaped Mental Patient. If
you control at least one of them, your enemies would better think
twice prior to playing hostile actions against you. If you have Maris
Streck, she can burn a blood to give +1 intercept to your Patient, and
he can block most actions. When you get The Unmasking, your Patients
will always have +1 intercept (+2 with the Maris' ability when
needed), and you will get some time to prepare your insane plans.
Paying 2 pool for each Patient is too much, but you have Sunset Strip,
Hollywood and Charisma to reduce the cost. Play Sibyl's Tongues to get
one of these cards or both. One pool for a Patient is affordable, and
free Patients are amazing! When you have several Patients, you can
send some of them to finish most unwanted vampires. Rotschrecks make a
good combo with the Patients - they send an opposing vampire to torpor
and your Patient survives. You can also play Rotschrecks when your
vampire shoots with Ivory Bow, with the same results.
If you manage to send a vampire into torpor, you should benefit from
this somehow, and this deck simply diablerizes its victims. To enable
diableries, one should have plenty of votes, and the crypt tries to
get as many votes as possible. If you manage to get Maris Streck,
Korah, Marie Faucigny and General Perfidio Dios, you will have nine
votes which is brilliant even for the best voting decks! With a little
help (or even without it) you will be able to diablerie each
torporized vamp... and get some blood for your vampires since this
deck usually torporizes without dealing damage.
Pool gaining and blood management are the primary troubles of this
deck, since its vampires are large enough, and it also needs pool for
Patients, Bows, master cards etc. Parity Shifts are invaluable, and
you should always hunt for Maris Streck since she is the only vamp
able to play the card. The Calls offer some acceleration or generate
some pool (unfortunately, only Korah is able to play the superior
version). You should use your Blood Dolls wisely, and The Hungry
Coyote allows decent bloating sometimes - just remember that you can
use Sunset Strip to increase stealth of the hunts!
Sibyl's Tongue is an amazing card that enables bizarre "combo-decks".
I'm going to cover it in detail in the future. This deck can use it
early to influence Yorik and fetch Information Highway, but the most
common sequence is searching for Sunset Strip first and for The
Unmasking second. Charisma is an obvious third choice, but sometimes
you will need Parity Shift, Ivory Bow or The Hungry Coyote first. You
can use Maris Streck's second ability to look at the top five cards of
your library and play Sibyl's Tongue to shuffle the library if the
cards were unwanted. Seems like Maris Streck was designed especially
for this deck, eh?
The rest of the deck is pretty straightforward. Use Fake Outs to
return to close range when your Patient is in combat or to stay at
long range with Ivory Bow. Bleed with Pulses of the Canaille and
Laptop Computer (use Marie to get the Laptop for free, if possible).
Use stealth cards to avoid being blocked.
I guess I should say a few words about Blood Weakens. This event is
harmful to the "true" combat decks that rely on playing several cards
in a single combat (maneuver, modifier, strike, press etc.), and it's
truly devastating for an intercept-combat deck that needs some cards
to intercept and some other cards to fight. Obviously, Blood Weakens
can harm you, if you're trying to play several stealth cards in a
single action, but the blocker is going to play several intercept
cards as well (beware the intercept locations!) The profit from Blood
Weakens would be minimal in a stealth-bleed deck, but this deck really
wants to fight, and Blood Weakens actually harms only opponent in
combat. Only one combat card of this deck (Swallowed by the Night) is
affected by the Blood Weakens, and if your vampire commit diablerie,
which happens quite often, (s)he will be immune to this effect.
This deck is nothing but a joke, though you definitely can enjoy
playing it and even win. It's too unstable to be a serious
tournament-caliber deck. But if you're looking only for a fun, try it!
By the way, after playing this deck for a while you would feel that
Sunset Strip, Hollywood is virtually crowded with escaped mental
patients :) Does anybody have the same feeling related to the real
Hollywood? :)
6. SWEET DREAMS
Now imagine you're LSJ himself, and you can create any cards you like.
Wow! You look captivated for a moment, you recall the powers you ever
wanted... and then you realize that you have to maintain balance
between clans, balance between disciplines, and balance between
strategies. Soon enough you'd have to abandon your dreams, as I did
while writing this newsletter.
But there's still a work to be done, since Malkavians antitribu still
have only one playable strategy. To my mind, just a few cards would
enable many different strategies for our clan. I did my best to design
these cards according to the nature of Malkavians and balance them,
and I really hope that the "true" LSJ is reading this...
Name: Run Away Like a Mad
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Dementation
Only usable before range is determined.
[dem] Set the range for this round of combat to long. Skip the
Determine Range step on this round. This minion gets an optional
maneuver to long range on the next round of combat and can perform
only dodge strikes during this combat.
[DEM] As above, with an optional press, only usable to end combat.
This is an alternative "combat ends" card based on Dementation. The
picture is clear - a Malkavian is trying to run away, so s(he) can
only dodge, but the distance is long. This card is good against
Immortal Grapples, and its superior version can help against
multiple-round combat decks. This card, however, is much weaker that
S:CE cards, since the opposing minion still can perform long-range
strikes. The running Malkavian can only dodge these strikes, if s(he)
has needed cards or abilities.
This card is expected to become a remedy against primary rushers
(Beast, Theo Bell etc) that usually prefer to fight at close range, as
well as against Grapples. It can be combined with Dodges to get
relatively good combat defense, and Marie Faucigny can use her ability
to dodge enemy strike. The card definitely isn't too powerful (just
compare it to Majesty or Earth Meld!), but it really enables decks
with intercept component, voting decks, decks based on Sibyl's Tongue
and many others.
Name: Freddy Krueger
Clan: Malkavian antitribu (group 3)
Capacity: 5
Disciplines: AUS dem obf
Card Text: Freddy cannot perform (D) actions. Once each combat, before
strikes are chosen, you may discard a card that requires Dementation
from your hand to get him +1 strength and make his hand damage
aggravated for the current round of combat.
Freddy is very funny, and his abilities mostly correspond to the
cinema character. Obviously, Freddy is mad and sneaky (he has
Dementation and Obfuscate), it's really hard to escape him (as he has
superior Auspex), and he prefers acting at his own hunting grounds. He
also has an enormous arm that can deal aggravated damage sometimes.
This vampire is going to serve as a blocker, and he also can bounce or
reduce bleeds. Freddy is a constant threat to any attacker, especially
with Sport Bike and IR Goggles.
This vampire isn't very good in stealth-bleed decks, since he cannot
bleed, but he enables other strategies like intercept decks (he would
be great in Escaped Mental Patients deck!), voting decks (he would
protect vampires with votes) and so on. Our clan really needs such
vampire to play something different from stealth-bleed.
I tried to make Freddy useful but not overpowered. He has four points
of Disciplines, and he also has a great ability and a serious
disadvantage that would combine into another +1 point. Freddy's
ability requires a decent number of Dementation cards in your deck,
which prevents from destabilizing the game too much.
Name: Madman's Fury
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 2 blood
Discipline: Dementation
[dem] Strike: strength+1 aggravated damage. If this strike
successfully resolves, send this minion into torpor after the
resolution.
[DEM] As above, with an optional maneuver to close range.
The philosophy of this card is very simple: if our allies can do this,
why this should be denied to our vampires? Each Escaped Mental Patient
can strike for +1 strength aggravated damage, and he is not unique -
just a common mortal madman. It would be only logical if our vampires
could do the same, going into torpor after the strike resolves.
This card should replace Coma as the best defensive "fear card"
available to our clan. Firstly, Madman's Fury cost only two blood
which is crucial when all your vampires have low blood. Secondly, it
deals aggravated damage which enables Rotschreck to torporize an
opposing vampire and save yours. Thirdly, this card can be played
afted Immortal Grapple, since it's a hand strike. At last, this card
potentially can even burn an opposing vampire with low blood,
especially when played by a vampire with +1 strength like Muriel
Foucade or Freddy Krueger.
If you consider this card overpowered, just look at the combat cards
available for the other Disciplines. Burning Wrath can deal strength+2
aggravated damage for three blood, Wolf Claws and Chiropteran Marauder
allow strength aggravated damage for one blood, and none of these
cards torporizes the vampire played it. Burst of Sunlight has similar
effect, but it can be used at long range, a minion playing it can
prevent its damage, and it costs no blood at all!
Oh, this newsletter is way too long, I know. I really did my best to
entertain you and fully describe the poor state of anti-Malkavian
combat abilities at the same time. The next one will be much shorter,
I promise. Any feedback is appreciated!
Yours,
Ilya Ginsburg (Ec...@mail.ru)
Daneel
> Now, for God's sake, tell me, why Malkavians antitribu cannot do
> ANYTHING in combat? Surely, our clan wasn't designed to be
> combat-oriented, but why we cannot even run away from combat?
Oh, my friend, the !Malks can do far more than run away.
Coma. May cost 3 blood, but it sends the opponent to torpor at INFERIOR.
Entombment is considered to be a super Combat Card, because all you need
is OBT and 2 blood and it gets around prevention of all sorts. Well, guess
what, Coma may cost you an additional blood, but it works at inferior (and
has other effects at superior).
HC Combat uses: combined with vampires like Yorik or David Morgan and
Hidden Lurker or Fast Reaction you can Coma-Amaranth most vampires foolish
enough to stand in a Malkavian's way.
Reality Mirror. THE best combat card in the game, IMHO. Its versatility
cannot be overrated. I've used this card to prevent damage, play Thrown
Sewer Lid, play S:CE, dodge, basically anything I need.
HC Combat uses: really, none in organized combat. Use one copy per deck,
and you have a prayer card that can kick some major ass (or prevent some
major asskicking).
Deny and Swallowed by the Night. If you do Stealth Bleed, these are your
friends. You may be a bit heavier on the stealth with these, as for 2
cards you get +2 stealth (which Lost in Crowds can supply for 1 card), but
if you have even a minimal blocking power, you can cycle them in combat,
or if you are rushed, you can use them to save your ass. I mean, unless
you're fighting VIC or QUI, long range will not usually cause you more
than 2-3 non-aggravated damage. And if you survive Round 1, you might as
well not stick around for Round 2.
HC Combat uses: undecided. They work wonders for avoiding combat, but I
guess if you want to fight, you might still consider them.
Disguised Weapon is just great. Especially with access to cards like Fast
Reaction, Hidden Lurker, Babble and Coma. You won't really use them in a
peaceful SB deck, but they serve as the backbone of many viable !Malk
strategies.
--
Bye,
Daneel
crisp...@hotmail.com
Ector wrote:
> OFFICIAL VEKN MALKAVIAN ANTITRIBU NEWSLETTER NOVEMBER 2004
> VOLUME IV, Issue II
> "Freedom to the Mental Patients!", by Ilya Ginsburg
>
> Reaction [13]
> 7x Telepathic Misdirection
> 6x Wake with Evening's Freshness
>
> Ally [8]
> 8x Escaped Mental Patient
I've played a deck similar to this - even less tournament worthy, since
it included Gisela Harden for some reason - and it would be heresy to
not include Babble. Incredibly flexible, since you can stack them if
you need to, and if an MP survives with the Rotschreck trick then you
can untap him to block again...
Ector
> Ector wrote:
> > "Freedom to the Mental Patients!", by Ilya Ginsburg
> ...
> > Ally [8]
> > 8x Escaped Mental Patient
>
> I've played a deck similar to this - even less tournament worthy, since
> it included Gisela Harden for some reason - and it would be heresy to
> not include Babble. Incredibly flexible, since you can stack them if
> you need to, and if an MP survives with the Rotschreck trick then you
> can untap him to block again...
You are right, Babble should be included automatically. Frankly, I
didn't make serious efforts to improve this deck, since I didn't
believe in it anyway... But there should be some potential in this
idea. Thanks a lot!
Ector
Ector
> On 1 Nov 2004 23:51:28 -0800, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
>
> > Now, for God's sake, tell me, why Malkavians antitribu cannot do
> > ANYTHING in combat? Surely, our clan wasn't designed to be
> > combat-oriented, but why we cannot even run away from combat?
>
> Oh, my friend, the !Malks can do far more than run away.
>
> Coma. May cost 3 blood, but it sends the opponent to torpor at INFERIOR.
> Entombment is considered to be a super Combat Card, because all you need
> is OBT and 2 blood and it gets around prevention of all sorts. Well, guess
> what, Coma may cost you an additional blood, but it works at inferior (and
> has other effects at superior).
>
> HC Combat uses: combined with vampires like Yorik or David Morgan and
> Hidden Lurker or Fast Reaction you can Coma-Amaranth most vampires foolish
> enough to stand in a Malkavian's way.
Once I was taught a serious lesson: "There are no good cards, there
are good decks". Just assemble a deck with multiple copies of Coma,
Hidden Lurker/Fast Reaction, Amaranth and other "potent" cards and try
to play the deck.
IMHO, you won't get good combat deck anyway, even if you manage to
burn one or two vampires occasionally.
> Reality Mirror. THE best combat card in the game, IMHO. Its versatility
> cannot be overrated. I've used this card to prevent damage, play Thrown
> Sewer Lid, play S:CE, dodge, basically anything I need.
>
> HC Combat uses: really, none in organized combat. Use one copy per deck,
> and you have a prayer card that can kick some major ass (or prevent some
> major asskicking).
The card is good, but it can be used only once, and, frankly, it's not
a saviour. I don't think you'll be able to play S:CE against a combat
deck :)
> Deny and Swallowed by the Night...
> HC Combat uses: undecided. They work wonders for avoiding combat, but I
> guess if you want to fight, you might still consider them.
I DON'T want to fight!!! Unfortunately, I'm forced to fight way too
often. Both cards are good, but they aren't S:CE :) For instance, both
cards can do nothing against Magnum + Blur strategy (unless you
maneuver to short range and play Coma, of course).
> Disguised Weapon is just great. Especially with access to cards like Fast
> Reaction, Hidden Lurker, Babble and Coma. You won't really use them in a
> peaceful SB deck, but they serve as the backbone of many viable !Malk
> strategies.
Come on, WHICH viable !Malk strategies do you mean? The whole theme of
my newsletter is the complains about the single possible
tournament-viable strategy, and it would be interesting to hear about
the others. Please, include some decklists or at least some links to
the decklists... Thanks a lot in advance! :)
Ector
XZealot
What about Gemini's Mirror? That is the stealth bleeders best friend.
How did that one get missed?
Excellent Newsletter by the way.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
Daneel
> Once I was taught a serious lesson: "There are no good cards, there
> are good decks". Just assemble a deck with multiple copies of Coma,
> Hidden Lurker/Fast Reaction, Amaranth and other "potent" cards and try
> to play the deck.
> IMHO, you won't get good combat deck anyway, even if you manage to
> burn one or two vampires occasionally.
Okay. If you're thinking "good" in terms of Torn Signpost + Immortal
Grapple + Octopod, for example, you won't get that from !Malks. You
cannot be good in all things.
However, you _can_ include combat potential in your decks that will
trump most other decks - except, of course, those which use clans or
disciplines whose primary strength is combat.
Just like the Ventrue can, occasionally, be the serious roughing-up
guys at a non-combat table by virtue of Island of Yiaros alone, so
can the !Malks beat other decks by using the cards I mentioned.
If you want to trump all primarily combat decks, don't play Malkavian
Antitribu. But if you want to trump not too focused decks, you have
options. I never played this kind of thing, but I saw Aus + Obf combat
decks using guns or flamethrowers. I saw Malkavian blocker/combat
decks using Fast Reaction, Disguised Weapon and flamethrowers.
Unfortunately, I don't recall seeing any strictly !Malkavian combat
decks, but that does not mean that their situation indeed needs to be
whined about.
By including a fair share of combat-use cards in my !Malk SB deck, I
was able to, on different occasions, tip the scales in my favor by
beating up opposing vampires.
>> Reality Mirror. THE best combat card in the game, IMHO. Its versatility
>> cannot be overrated. I've used this card to prevent damage, play Thrown
>> Sewer Lid, play S:CE, dodge, basically anything I need.
>
> The card is good, but it can be used only once, and, frankly, it's not
> a saviour. I don't think you'll be able to play S:CE against a combat
> deck :)
But you may be able to prevent. Or hit back.
>> Deny and Swallowed by the Night...
>
> I DON'T want to fight!!! Unfortunately, I'm forced to fight way too
> often. Both cards are good, but they aren't S:CE :) For instance, both
> cards can do nothing against Magnum + Blur strategy (unless you
> maneuver to short range and play Coma, of course).
Did you consider something along the lines of Capitalist + Sleep Unseen?
Or Concealed Weapon + Flash Grenade?
I mean, I've had some experience with !Malk SB, and there were few
occasions
where I was completely beaten up. So few that all in all I consider using
the cards I mentioned to be a rather adequate defence against tournament
environment combat.
--
Bye,
Daneel
J
and do it well. If the !Malks were strong or at least competent in
combat then what would be the point of playing any other clan. As it
stands, they have access to some of the best bleed in the game (DEM),
the best stealth in the game (OBF), the best intercept in the game
(AUS), why give them something else?
And as for them being useless in combat... compared to whom? Brujah?
Blood Brothers? Gangrel? Doing so is foolish, as combat tends to be
these clans best feature. Every clan has their strengths, their
weaknesses and things that they are so-so at.
Here's a deck that I've just knocked up in about 10 minutes. This
should do ok except in very heavy combat environments, but then even
combat decks can struggle in that situation.
Deck Name: Kite kicks butt
Created By: J
Description: Malk Anti Wall with a little stealth bleed thrown into
the mix. Have Kite get OBF as soon as possible. Then set about
blocking your prey's actions, whilst defending your pool.
Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 15, Max: 28, Avg: 5.42)
----------------------------------------------
4 Kite AUS DEM obf pre 7, Malkavian Antitribu:2,
Bishop
1 Quira AUS OBF obt tha 6, Malkavian Antitribu:2
1 Dolphin Black AUS DEM OBF 6, Malkavian Antitribu:2
1 General Perfidio Dios dem obf AUS 5, Malkavian Antitribu:3,
Bishop
1 Colonel cel dem obf AUS 5, Malkavian antitribu:3
1 Roger Farnsworth aus OBF 4, Malkavian antitribu:3
1 Idalia AUS dem 4, Malkavian Antitribu:2
1 Claven aus dem obf 4, Malkavian Antitribu:2
1 Yorik dem obf 3, Malkavian Antitribu:2
Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (13 cards)
4 Blood Doll
1 Elysium: Sforzesco Castle
1 Institution Hunting Ground
1 KRCG News Radio
4 Obfuscate
2 Rotschreck
Action (3 cards)
3 Pulse of the Canaille
Action Modifier (6 cards)
6 Lost in Crowds
Reaction (34 cards)
6 Eagle's Sight
5 Enhanced Senses
10 Forced Awakening
4 Spirit's Touch
4 Telepathic Misdirection
5 Wake with Evening's Freshness
Combat (15 cards)
5 Behind You!
5 Disguised Weapon
1 Gemini's Mirror
2 Majesty
1 Reality Mirror
1 Coma
Retainer (2 cards)
1 Mr. Winthrop
1 Tasha Morgan
Equipment (11 cards)
2 Improvised Flamethrower
2 IR Goggles
2 Ivory Bow
2 Leather Jacket
3 Sniper Rifle
Combo (6 cards)
6 Swallowed by the Night
--> J
Ector
> On 3 Nov 2004 23:28:04 -0800, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
>
> > Once I was taught a serious lesson: "There are no good cards, there
> > are good decks". Just assemble a deck with multiple copies of Coma,
> > Hidden Lurker/Fast Reaction, Amaranth and other "potent" cards and try
> > to play the deck.
> > IMHO, you won't get good combat deck anyway, even if you manage to
> > burn one or two vampires occasionally.
>
> Okay. If you're thinking "good" in terms of Torn Signpost + Immortal
> Grapple + Octopod, for example, you won't get that from !Malks. You
> cannot be good in all things.
Surely, you can't. Good combat deck (IMHO) is a deck that regularly
torporizes opposing vampires or at least seriously drains their blood.
Our goal is surviving combat or strike back, but we cannot spend a lot
of cards for it unless we're really going to assemble a combat deck.
Presence-based deck can use 10 Majesty for combat protection, and they
do the job nicely. Can you provide a decent combat abilities for
!Malks with just 10 cards? I think no.
> However, you _can_ include combat potential in your decks that will
> trump most other decks - except, of course, those which use clans or
> disciplines whose primary strength is combat.
>
> Just like the Ventrue can, occasionally, be the serious roughing-up
> guys at a non-combat table by virtue of Island of Yiaros alone, so
> can the !Malks beat other decks by using the cards I mentioned.
My answer is the same: the Island is a serious combat ability for a
SINGLE deck slot. Malkavian antitribu would definitely use such card
if they had it :)
> If you want to trump all primarily combat decks, don't play Malkavian
> Antitribu. But if you want to trump not too focused decks, you have
> options. I never played this kind of thing, but I saw Aus + Obf combat
> decks using guns or flamethrowers. I saw Malkavian blocker/combat
> decks using Fast Reaction, Disguised Weapon and flamethrowers.
> Unfortunately, I don't recall seeing any strictly !Malkavian combat
> decks, but that does not mean that their situation indeed needs to be
> whined about.
I don't want to trump dedicated combat decks. All I want is having
really good combat cards to be able to run away with a single card in
a S&B deck (see my Run Away Like a Mad card) and to pose a real threat
while intercepting (see Madman's Fury and Freddy Krueger). I believe
that 10 Run Aways would enhance any S&B decks (though 10 Majesties
would be much better), and it should be possible to include at least
casual intercept module with the rest cards. Nothing more.
> By including a fair share of combat-use cards in my !Malk SB deck, I
> was able to, on different occasions, tip the scales in my favor by
> beating up opposing vampires.
"On different occasions" are the keywords :)
I tried many different cards in my S&B deck... Occasionally, Coma was
very effective, but most times I was forced to discard it since nobody
could play it. Currently I use one Ivory Bow, one Coma and some
Dodges. If I had Reality Mirror, I'd use it, too. I also have Muddled
Vampire Hunter and Escaped Mental Patient. Deny and Swallowed by the
Night were included automatically :)
Now what? A single Beast still can pound all my vampires with a few
cards :(
> Did you consider something along the lines of Capitalist + Sleep Unseen?
> Or Concealed Weapon + Flash Grenade?
Too many cards needed, too slight chances to get them in time, and
both combos are one-shot.
> I mean, I've had some experience with !Malk SB, and there were few
> occasions where I was completely beaten up. So few that all in all I consider > using the cards I mentioned to be a rather adequate defence against tournament
> environment combat.
There were only "few occasions"? Lucky you! My S&B is constantly
beaten up even by the deck assembled from two Brujah starters! All
players here in Minsk (including myself) are novices, and starters are
the primary sources of cards here. Nearly half of our players are
playing rush decks... Guess what are your chances between two rush
decks? Moreover, if your grandprey can rush, he will rush you too!
Ector
Ector
>
> What about Gemini's Mirror? That is the stealth bleeders best friend.
> How did that one get missed?
Wow! The card is really wonderful, and I should mention it! The only
reason I missed it is my negative attitude to all "flip the coin"
cards. But its inferior ability is far better than Dodge I'm using
now... and I'm really going to get some Mirrors!
Nevertheless, do you agree that my Run Away Like a Mad would be a
better card?
I'd prefer it, if it would exist :)
> Excellent Newsletter by the way.
Thanks... I tried a lot :)
Ector
Daneel
> Presence-based deck can use 10 Majesty for combat protection, and they
> do the job nicely. Can you provide a decent combat abilities for
> !Malks with just 10 cards? I think no.
5 Deny and 5 Swallowed gives you some protection. Many times controlling
the range and the presses allows you to survive combat. Your benefit - for
foregoing the instant S:CE of Majesty - is that you can cycle these cards
as stealth when needed.
>> Just like the Ventrue can, occasionally, be the serious roughing-up
>> guys at a non-combat table by virtue of Island of Yiaros alone, so
>> can the !Malks beat other decks by using the cards I mentioned.
>
> My answer is the same: the Island is a serious combat ability for a
> SINGLE deck slot. Malkavian antitribu would definitely use such card
> if they had it :)
Flamethrower.
> I don't want to trump dedicated combat decks. All I want is having
> really good combat cards to be able to run away with a single card in
> a S&B deck (see my Run Away Like a Mad card) and to pose a real threat
> while intercepting (see Madman's Fury and Freddy Krueger).
You try this:
1 Secure Haven
1 Read Intentions
1 Quick Exit
1 Dodge
1 Reality Mirror
2 Coma
5 Deny
5 Swallowed
Should work as a solid base for most regular tournaments with (D) Combat.
>> By including a fair share of combat-use cards in my !Malk SB deck, I
>> was able to, on different occasions, tip the scales in my favor by
>> beating up opposing vampires.
>
> "On different occasions" are the keywords :)
That simply means "once in a while". My primary winning strategy was
bleeding and reducing pool. Occasionally I won by killing an important
vampire, but that was only a spinoff of my combat defence.
> If I had Reality Mirror, I'd use it, too.
Well, I guess you will really have to try this card to know its worth.
> Now what? A single Beast still can pound all my vampires with a few
> cards :(
If the Beast is your predator, you simply stop influencing out vampires
until the player is ousted. If it is your prey, you proceed to burn it
along the other posessions of his controller (ousting him).
>> Did you consider something along the lines of Capitalist + Sleep Unseen?
>> Or Concealed Weapon + Flash Grenade?
>
> Too many cards needed, too slight chances to get them in time, and
> both combos are one-shot.
You do not really need to have a pansion plan with Stealth Bleed. You kill
one guy in a matter of turns, then proceed. You execute the combos once in
a while, and you gain the edge you needed to oust your prey. Afterwards,
his or her minions won't matter anymore.
> There were only "few occasions"? Lucky you! My S&B is constantly
> beaten up even by the deck assembled from two Brujah starters! All
> players here in Minsk (including myself) are novices, and starters are
> the primary sources of cards here. Nearly half of our players are
> playing rush decks... Guess what are your chances between two rush
> decks? Moreover, if your grandprey can rush, he will rush you too!
I would consider that as more of a local, metagame thingy. Fight it by
including Sleep Unseens and Secure Havens.
> Ector
--
Bye,
Daneel
Ector
> It seems to me that you want the !Malks to be able to do everything,
> and do it well. If the !Malks were strong or at least competent in
> combat then what would be the point of playing any other clan. As it
> stands, they have access to some of the best bleed in the game (DEM),
> the best stealth in the game (OBF), the best intercept in the game
> (AUS), why give them something else?
>
> And as for them being useless in combat... compared to whom? Brujah?
> Blood Brothers? Gangrel? Doing so is foolish, as combat tends to be
> these clans best feature. Every clan has their strengths, their
> weaknesses and things that they are so-so at.
Did I propose to make !Malkavian Torn Signpost, or !Malkavian Blur, or
!Malkavian Chiropteran Marauder? No, I didn't. So do I want the !Malks
"to be able to do everything, and do it well"? Surely not.
Most Disciplines offer some useful combat abilities, but Malks/!Malks
have no combat disciplines. And their combat weakness leaves the only
"strengths" of Stealth & Bleed...
> Here's a deck that I've just knocked up in about 10 minutes. This
> should do ok except in very heavy combat environments, but then even
> combat decks can struggle in that situation.
> Deck Name: Kite kicks butt
> Created By: J
> Description: Malk Anti Wall with a little stealth bleed thrown into
> the mix. Have Kite get OBF as soon as possible. Then set about
> blocking your prey's actions, whilst defending your pool.
Please try playing your deck. Surely, you've got good weapons and you
can Disguise them, but I don't think this deck can survive blocking
long enough. Sometimes your minions will be able to shoot from the
long distance without any loss of blood, but this is very unlikely
against any deck with a decent combat module. If you fail to
out-maneuver Grapple deck, your Kite will be torporized. Blur+Magnum
will almost always kill him. Even a simple Theft of Vitae would drain
his blood, and you cannot restore it. But the most obvious example is
a simple Brujah long-range deck, easily assembled from two Brujah
starters: maneuver from Flash or Thrown Gate, Blur, Thrown Sewer Lid.
Now, how are you going to regain pool if you'll need to constantly
SPEND your pool on Blood Dolls to keep your vampires alive? And how
are you going to pay for those Flamethrowers? And how are you going to
defend against a good S&B deck (that CAN get past your intercept) with
only four Telepathic Misdirections?
And how are you going to oust your prey? Do you really think that your
Kite would be able to block for several turns and then spend 3 blood
on the Pulse?
Look, I appreciate your effort, but nobody can assemble a good
!Malkavian deck that should survive combat on a regular basis. There
aren't needed cards for it, at least now.
Yours,
Ector (Ec...@mail.ru)
Darky
> VOLUME IV, Issue II
Where is Zip gun?
Hungry coyote is a good way to survive combat decks as well. (rescue
costs 2 actions and net 0 blood) Hunting is a good way to survive.
The Coven is in the same category.
You did mention Swallowed by the Night before, but not here?
Gemini's mirror as mentioned by XZealot.
<snip a bit more>
How would a virtual combat ends, that indeed is too powerful (just
compare it to majesty or earth meld, which are either easily beaten by
immortal grapple, or belong to a clan which has limited access to
serious bleeding power(dom/pro works, but isn't quite as readily
available as dem/obf) enable Voting decks/Sybil's Tongue decks? Seems
to me like a good way to make !Malk even better S&B, which really
isn't neccessary.
<snip>
Potence, protean, viccisitude, and thaumaturgy decks usually don't
combine them with obf, and they aren't the best or maybe second best
bleeding discipline in the game either. Have you been troubled by
immortal grapple decks lately?
<snip>
> Any feedback is appreciated!
>
> Yours,
> Ilya Ginsburg (Ec...@mail.ru)
I believe I do have a tournament worthy !Malk based deck, which isn't
S&B. If you're interested, toss me a mail at
bv...@cut.this.out.phil.uu.nl :)
Thanks for taking the time to share your views.
-Bram Vink
Matthew T. Morgan
> Did I propose to make !Malkavian Torn Signpost
Not so far as I know, but it's certainly possible with Alicia Barrows
(g4). Alicia has POT and PRE, which means she can play Iron Glare both
ways and might be a good ally to the !Brujah as she can use her AUS to
bounce bleeds. She also might work well with Jeremy MacNeil (AUS POT
PRE). I've played around with a few decklists that try to do this, but so
far everything I've come up with is just painful to behold. I'll let you
know should inspiration strike.
Matt Morgan
XZealot
>
> >
> > What about Gemini's Mirror? That is the stealth bleeders best friend.
> > How did that one get missed?
> Wow! The card is really wonderful, and I should mention it! The only
> reason I missed it is my negative attitude to all "flip the coin"
> cards. But its inferior ability is far better than Dodge I'm using
> now... and I'm really going to get some Mirrors!
> Nevertheless, do you agree that my Run Away Like a Mad would be a
> better card?
> I'd prefer it, if it would exist :)
To be honest, Run Away Like Mad is horrifically broken.
Name: Run Away Like a Mad
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Dementation
Only usable before range is determined.
[dem] Set the range for this round of combat to long. Skip the
Determine Range step on this round. This minion gets an optional
maneuver to long range on the next round of combat and can perform
only dodge strikes during this combat.
[DEM] As above, with an optional press, only usable to end combat
It sets range which hoses a great number of combat decks for 1 blood
which is insane, no pun intended. If it cost one pool, then I might
consider it. If it cost one pool, required a !Malk and was an OOT
Master then it would be balanced. !Malks/Malks are the steamroller of
VTES. They make you lose, and if you try to stand in their way, then
they make you lose faster.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr.
David Cherryholmes
> Look, I appreciate your effort, but nobody can assemble a good
> !Malkavian deck that should survive combat on a regular basis. There
> aren't needed cards for it, at least now.
Hey, let me weigh in with a deck *I* knocked out in about 10 minutes.
Actually, I've played this on deckbot more than a few times, but I lost
the list while transferring computers, so it's just from memory. It's
won its share of games, and it's worth pointing out that deckbot is a
*gorefest*, so if a deck can survive there it's fair to say it can
survive a heavy combat metagame.
In case it's not obvious, Hannibal[ADV] has a special which lets him
burn 2 blood for an untap. Either you hit Mylan early or you hit
Sybil's early, which gives you Mylan. That's three actions with
Hannibal, who commences Calling out the rest of the gang. Next goal is
to make him vigilant, which gives him untap limited only by his ability
to maintain blood. All the key vampires have Dominate, and with all the
untap available he should be able to block repeatedly and obey. Oust
with Ye Olde Stealth and Bleed. Oh, Monocle of Clarity is mainly there
so you can ask the one key question, "Does your deck contain Archon
Investigations" before you pulse and dive your way up past 3 bleed.
Deck Name : Hannibal the Cannibal
Author :
Description :
Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 3 max: 10 average: 8.08
------------------------------------------------------------
5x Hannibal Adv 10 AUS DEM OBF cel dom cardinal !Malkavian:2
2x Maris Streck 9 AUS OBF ani dem dom justicar Malkavian:3
1x Vasantasena 9 AUS DEM OBF dom pot !Malkavian:2
1x Anatole, Prophet o 8 AUS DEM OBF dom for Malkavian:2
1x Uncle George 5 DEM aus dom obf !Malkavian:3
1x Roger Farnsworth 4 OBF aus !Malkavian:3
1x Yorik 3 dem obf !Malkavian:2
Library [81 cards]
------------------------------------------------------------
Action [20]
6x Call, The
2x Clotho's Gift
2x Dive into Madness
4x Eternal Vigilance
2x Pulse of the Canaille
4x Sibyl's Tongue
Action Modifier [18]
2x Change of Target
6x Cloak the Gathering
4x Elder Impersonation
2x Lost in Crowds
4x Spying Mission
Action Modifier/Combat [2]
2x Swallowed by the Night
Ally [4]
4x Mylan Horseed (Goblin)
Combat [2]
2x Coma
Equipment [2]
1x Monocle of Clarity
1x Sport Bike
Master [16]
3x Blood Doll
1x Coven, The
1x Dominate
2x Dreams of the Sphinx
2x Effective Management
1x Giant's Blood
1x Information Highway
3x Perfectionist
1x Rack, The
1x Zillah's Valley
Reaction [16]
4x Eagle's Sight
8x Obedience
4x Telepathic Misdirection
Retainer [1]
1x Mr. Winthrop
Crafted with : Anarch Revolt Deck Builder. [Fri Nov 5 15:24:58 2004]
--
David Cherryholmes
Curevei
>beaten up even by the deck assembled from two Brujah starters! All
>players here in Minsk (including myself) are novices, and starters are
>the primary sources of cards here. Nearly half of our players are
>playing rush decks... Guess what are your chances between two rush
>decks? Moreover, if your grandprey can rush, he will rush you too!
Sleep Unseen, Secure Haven, Secret Passage, Anarch Revolts (if you do more pool
damage, you win), play with Fortitude (Theron, Artemis give a base), etc. -
there are various ways to annoy decks in such an environment. When you have a
known environment, no matter what features it may have, you can adjust to it.
Your point about the !Malks having a dearth of reasonable offensive combat
options is valid. But, there are 33 clans in the game, and, at least, this one
clan has good winning options and some not so good options that might interest
someone, e.g. prison.
I'd like to see more clans not have to rely on equipment or out of clan
disciplines for reasonable offensive combat, but I don't consider it a top
priority to address this for every clan that has the problem. For instance,
I'd much more be interested in Melpominee getting an offensive combat card than
Dementation. I'd be more interested in a disciplineless bounce card being
made. I'd be even more interested in new clans and disciplines.
As for defensive combat, taken together, the options available are not
particularly bad.
You said "By the way, any "stealth & something" deck has very
little free space, since it has to contain stealth cards and primary
strategy cards (i.e. bleed cards in a stealth-bleed deck)."
I don't agree with that. Stealth bleed has more free space than most
archetypes, which allows it to devote extra slots to combat if it feels like
it.
Ector
David, I really like your deck, and I may even try to play it if I
manage to find the needed cards :) But does this deck provide any
arguments against my point of view? I claimed that S & B is the only
tournament-viable strategy for anti-Malks, and this is yet another S &
B deck that uses out-clan cards for combat protection (Obedience) and
huge vampires to get that out-clan Discipline.
You could play Rachel Brandywine + Rodolfo + bunch of Protean skill
cards to get access to Earth Meld, Form of Mist or even aggravated
strikes... I've encountered such decks. But the question is getting
some combat abilities (at least combat-avoidance) WITHOUT using
out-clan Disciplines! Why it's possible to build Presence-only weenie
decks and get both serious bleed and combat protection, while all
three Malkavian disciplines cannot protect them and they should look
for out-clan disciplines?
By the way, do you think that these Obediences would protect you
against a rush deck? When a rush deck plays Haven Uncovered on your
Hannibal, all his vampires can rush with +1 stealth! And even if you
play Obedience on the first one, the second one would succeed. IMHO,
this deck utterly needs Secure Haven and Purchase Pact. But even those
won't save all your vampires, and since you're playing huge vamps, you
will suffer when you lose Hannibal or Maris Streck.
Thanks a lot for an interesting deck anyway!
Ector
salem
<david.che...@duke.edu> scrawled:
[snip]
>with Ye Olde Stealth and Bleed. Oh, Monocle of Clarity is mainly there
>so you can ask the one key question, "Does your deck contain Archon
>Investigations" before you pulse and dive your way up past 3 bleed.
are you allowed to ask this?
if you are, what happens if you don't know the answer? (possibilities
include not having played the particular deck in ages so you've
forgotten, or borrowing someone else's deck)
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
Ector
You are right - Alicia Barrows would be great with Jeremy McNeil and
Menele in AUS/POT/PRE deck, and, possibly, even with Khalid and Cock
Robin in ANI/aus/OBF/POT deck. You may consider her Brujah antitribu
or Nosferatu antitribu, but she isn't very effective in most S&B
decks, and, unfortunately, Malkavians antitribu cannot play nothing
else right now.
Maybe, we'll see other Malkavians antitribu with Potence in the fiture
sets, and then Alicia would return at home :)
Ector
James Coupe
<Ec...@mail.ru> writes:
>Did I propose to make !Malkavian Torn Signpost, or !Malkavian Blur, or
>!Malkavian Chiropteran Marauder? No, I didn't. So do I want the !Malks
>"to be able to do everything, and do it well"? Surely not.
>Most Disciplines offer some useful combat abilities, but Malks/!Malks
>have no combat disciplines. And their combat weakness leaves the only
>"strengths" of Stealth & Bleed...
Many offer something useful, yes. Ignore Bloodlines disciplines,
they're special - most of the rest have something to do in combat.
Auspex has several neat tricks up its sleeve - Aura Reading is actually
quite cool at inferior. I prefer that to the superior, anyhow - though
card cycling is also good! And if you're blocking with intercept, you
have quite a few other bits and pieces at your disposal. Particularly,
The Spirit's Touch and Precognition. Intercept and (conditional on
blocking) combat defence isn't to be sniffed at.
Similarly, I'm a self-confessed fan of Swallowed by the Night for that
flexibility.
Additionally, I think you're missing one of the coolest cards the !Malks
have. Don't go into combat yourself - get an Escaped Mental Patient to
do it and annoy the Methuselah who's troubling you. Yeah, this doesn't
help if you're being rushed (though you could try to block with him, if
they don't have inherent stealth (Archon, say) or any stealth modifiers
in the deck). But being able to deploy Escaped Mental Patients as a way
of threatening other decks with stuff is a) fun, b) cool and c) not
actually that bad - there are various tricks that other people have
mentioned. Particularly if they have a lot of Strike: Combat Ends and
similar - you don't burn, because you didn't strike aggravated. Fun fun
fun.
I also think you'd do well to investigate some of the non-combat
possibilities available to all which can help you avoid combat. Change
of Target might be particularly worthwhile, if it's block/combat that's
most troubling. Or you could have a big "bruiser" lurking around. The
vampire who got the .44 Magnum, Ivory Bow or whatever floats your boat.
Yeah, not the best combat in the world, but if you're going to be
blocked, throw down a Mask of a Thousand Faces. And since the acting
vampire you had is now untapped, you still have a rescuer available
potentially, if he does go down (barring burning by massive agg
damage/Amaranth). If you can generate a fair few vampires, Precognizant
Mobility might be worth considering to re-untap him - there are a few
weenie-ish vampires with AUS to think about, and you might generate some
if you wanted to play that way, for an Embrace/Creation Rites swarm-ish
bleed. Or perhaps Metro Underground for the block/deterrent capability
later which is a card I keep trying to find space for, as I think it'll
turn out okay if you have a reasonable blood flow. Weenie obf, Creation
Rites/Embrace, Psychic Veil, Tribute to the Master pool gain swarm-isg
bleed could have sufficient pool to afford it all, along with some
bigger vampires.
Anyway.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though!
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.
Ector
> Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote in message news:<d6c82c73.04110...@posting.google.com>...
> > X_Ze...@cox-internet.com (XZealot) wrote in message news:<607fd93.04110...@posting.google.com>...
> To be honest, Run Away Like Mad is horrifically broken.
>
> Name: Run Away Like a Mad
> Cardtype: Combat
> Cost: 1 blood
> Discipline: Dementation
> Only usable before range is determined.
> [dem] Set the range for this round of combat to long. Skip the
> Determine Range step on this round. This minion gets an optional
> maneuver to long range on the next round of combat and can perform
> only dodge strikes during this combat.
> [DEM] As above, with an optional press, only usable to end combat
>
> It sets range which hoses a great number of combat decks for 1 blood
> which is insane, no pun intended. If it cost one pool, then I might
> consider it. If it cost one pool, required a !Malk and was an OOT
> Master then it would be balanced. !Malks/Malks are the steamroller of
> VTES. They make you lose, and if you try to stand in their way, then
> they make you lose faster.
>
Run Away Like a Mad is broken? What about Obedience, that cost NO
blood? What about Elysium: the Arboretum and Purchase Pact that are
PERMANENT and cost no blood? What about Earth Meld that provide S:CE
and untap for free? All these cards are FAR MORE EFFECTIVE than Run
Away Like a Mad. Unfortunately, !Malks cannot use them. Why don't you
consider other range-setting cards broken for the same reason? Cailean
and Sniper Rifle should be banned, since they provide this ability
CONSTANTLY and FOR FREE, and there is Shadow Step...
In reality, Run Away Like a Mad hoses only Immortal Grapple decks. And
even those decks often use Thrown Sewer Lids to punish maneuvers and
press to the next round of combat.
> !Malks/Malks are the steamroller of VTES. They make you lose, and if you try > to stand in their way, then they make you lose faster.
Yes, Malks/!Malks are uber-aggressive, since they cannot do anything
except for bleeding at stealth, and they cannot defend themselves, so
they are forced to hurry. Both their predator and their prey usually
pound them with a full force, and their grandprey is also against
them.
Provide !Malks with a decent defense, and they won't be
uber-aggressive anymore, since it is disadvantageous to have the
entire table against you. They would wait for Madman's Quill and a
couple of Eyes of Chaos, and they would oust their prey quickly and
suddenly, just like many decks do with Governs and Conditionings now.
Ector
Ector
> Where is Zip gun?
I tried this, and I'm not a big fan of it. If opponent out-maneuver
me, he knows that I'm going to shoot with Zip Gun, thus I cannot
dodge, so he can launch any strike - Burning Wrath and so on.
> Hungry coyote is a good way to survive combat decks as well. (rescue
> costs 2 actions and net 0 blood) Hunting is a good way to survive.
> The Coven is in the same category.
Torporized vampires cannot hunt. Vampires that resque other vampires
from torpor cannot hunt as well. And there are vamps that can rush
every turn without any cards, like Beast or Theo Bell.
> > Name: Run Away Like a Mad
> > Cardtype: Combat
> > Cost: 1 blood
> > Discipline: Dementation
> > Only usable before range is determined.
> > [dem] Set the range for this round of combat to long. Skip the
> > Determine Range step on this round. This minion gets an optional
> > maneuver to long range on the next round of combat and can perform
> > only dodge strikes during this combat.
> > [DEM] As above, with an optional press, only usable to end combat.
> How would a virtual combat ends, that indeed is too powerful (just
> compare it to majesty or earth meld, which are either easily beaten by
> immortal grapple, or belong to a clan which has limited access to
> serious bleeding power(dom/pro works, but isn't quite as readily
> available as dem/obf) enable Voting decks/Sybil's Tongue decks? Seems
> to me like a good way to make !Malk even better S&B, which really
> isn't neccessary.
Hey, are you playing Immortal Grapple most of the time? :)
How can you consider this card too powerful? What about Alpha Glint
that CANNOT be beaten by Immortal Grapple? What about Deer Rifle, that
nearly always guarantee long distance? This card forces you to pay 1
blood just for long distance, and you cannot shoot from there! Cailean
chooses distance for free, and can shoot...
"Serious bleeding power" really sounds strange. Dominate and Presence
offer the same bleeding power or even stronger, but Dominate has
Obediences, and Presence has Combat Ends. Does it frighten you? One
can easily assemble dom/obf deck from first-group Malks and others
that would bleed stronger and get protection from Obedience.
How would Run Away enable voting/Sibyl's Tongue decks? Well, it would
simply allow their vampires to live a bit longer.
> <snip>
> > Name: Madman's Fury
> > Cardtype: Combat
> > Cost: 2 blood
> > Discipline: Dementation
> > [dem] Strike: strength+1 aggravated damage. If this strike
> > successfully resolves, send this minion into torpor after the
> > resolution.
> > [DEM] As above, with an optional maneuver to close range.
> Potence, protean, viccisitude, and thaumaturgy decks usually don't
> combine them with obf, and they aren't the best or maybe second best
> bleeding discipline in the game either. Have you been troubled by
> immortal grapple decks lately?
OK, Stealth-Bleed is the common enemy, so let's punish it a lot!
Don't you see that Madman's Fury is pure defensive card? Surely, if
you think that any S&B deck should be punished, it would be hard to
establish mutual understanding...
No, I wasn't troubled by IG decks, since there are just a few Grapples
in Minsk. But any combat deck (Toreador Blurred Magnums, Tremere
Apportation/Theft and so on) easily destroys Malkavians :(
> I believe I do have a tournament worthy !Malk based deck, which isn't
> S&B. If you're interested, toss me a mail at
> bv...@cut.this.out.phil.uu.nl :)
Thank you, I'll try :)
Ector
XZealot
> Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote in message news:<d6c82c73.04110...@posting.google.com>...
> > X_Ze...@cox-internet.com (XZealot) wrote in message news:<607fd93.04110...@posting.google.com>...
>> To be honest, Run Away Like Mad is horrifically broken.
>>
>> Name: Run Away Like a Mad
>> Cardtype: Combat
>> Cost: 1 blood
>> Discipline: Dementation
>> Only usable before range is determined.
>> [dem] Set the range for this round of combat to long. Skip the
>> Determine Range step on this round. This minion gets an optional
>> maneuver to long range on the next round of combat and can perform
>> only dodge strikes during this combat.
>> [DEM] As above, with an optional press, only usable to end combat
>>
>> It sets range which hoses a great number of combat decks for 1
blood
>> which is insane, no pun intended. If it cost one pool, then I
might
>> consider it. If it cost one pool, required a !Malk and was an OOT
>> Master then it would be balanced. !Malks/Malks are the steamroller
of
>> VTES. They make you lose, and if you try to stand in their way,
then
>> they make you lose faster.
>>
>Run Away Like a Mad is broken?
Yes, not quite as broken as RtI but still broken.
>What about Obedience, that cost NO
blood?
Obedience is a reaction card so is only usable when it is not your
turn, and is only usable by an older vampire against vampires so Igrid
Russo can't play it against Beast or Renagade Garou, and also is only
anti-combat. These three restrictions versus Run Away like Mad which
can be used during any combat regardless of who's turn it is, is
usable against any vampire or ally for that matter, or can be used to
enhance combat (i.e. Eddie Gaines 1 cap pot dem Run Away Like Mad then
run over you with a Stunt Cycle, wasn't that fun).
>What about Elysium: the Arboretum and Purchase Pact that are
PERMANENT and cost no blood?
Both are masters so are self limiting, and can only be used by
Camrilla vs Camrilla or Sabbat vs. Sabbat, and each is burnable by an
action, so they are NOT PERMANENT.
What about Earth Meld that provide S:CE
and untap for free?
Gangrel/!Gangrel discipline which is versatile yet doesn't generate
bleed and these two clans have limited access to enhanced bleed (i.e.
they suck in tournament evironment, sorry Legbiter).
> All these cards are FAR MORE EFFECTIVE than Run
Away Like a Mad.
(In an effort to not cause an international scandal this section was
deleted)
That is just simply not true for all the reasons I have listed.
>Unfortunately, !Malks cannot use them. Why don't you
>consider other range-setting cards broken for the same reason?
Because they are balanced versus Run Away Like Mad which is not for
the above reasons and quite a few more.
> Cailean
>and Sniper Rifle should be banned, since they provide this ability
>CONSTANTLY and FOR FREE, and there is Shadow Step...
Let's compare these on a case by case basis.
1) Cailean- 10 cap vampire so NOT FREE, takes 3 turns to influence
out, unique, only vampire in the game with that ability, versus Run
Away Like Mad and the faceless horde of demenation weenies. 0-1 You
lose.
2) Sniper Rifle- equiment, costs an action which is blockable, costs 2
pool so NOT FREE, only usable when you block an action versus Run Away
Like Mad which can be used any time. 0-2 You lose.
3) Shadow Step- Requires Superior Obtenebration, rarer than hen's
teeth at a denture convention (note, this will soon be changed), must
burn 2 blood, NOT FREE, doesn't provide anything else versus Run Away
Like Mad which sets range gives you a maneuver and a press at superior
and turns into a pizza, a six pack and a supermodel when no one else
is around. 0-3 You lose
>In reality, Run Away Like a Mad hoses only Immortal Grapple decks.
And
>even those decks often use Thrown Sewer Lids to punish maneuvers and
>press to the next round of combat.
(again section was deleted to keep World War from being started over
silliness, see Hitler losing at checkers to a French foreign exchange
student)
You should be satisfied with success. !Malks presence skews the game
to combat. You should take it as a compliment.
>> !Malks/Malks are the steamroller of VTES. They make you lose, and
if you try > to stand in their way, then they make you lose faster.
>Yes, Malks/!Malks are uber-aggressive, since they cannot do anything
>except for bleeding at stealth, and they cannot defend themselves, so
>they are forced to hurry. Both their predator and their prey usually
>pound them with a full force, and their grandprey is also against
>them.
>Provide !Malks with a decent defense, and they won't be
>uber-aggressive anymore, since it is disadvantageous to have the
>entire table against you. They would wait for Madman's Quill and a
>couple of Eyes of Chaos, and they would oust their prey quickly and
>suddenly, just like many decks do with Governs and Conditionings now.
They don't have to do anything other than bleed at stealth to win.
Let's all cry for the poor !Malks who crush newbies and slow decks
like grains of corn under a millstone. If we play a game of
appeasement, then maybe they will hold back and not beat everyone like
a drum. Oh no not everyone, if you pack bounce then you don't lose
to them. Gee thanks lets wall paper half the clans in the game. Oh,
no it doesn't they can rush. Oh, really that's why we can't make the
!Malks good at combat because then everything else will suck. Blah,
Blah, Blah, Blah....I can't hear you because I have my hands over my
ears....I have a force field on you can't touch me....
Becoming insane is looking better and better all the time.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr.
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
Ector
Curevei
>bleed and these two clans have limited access to enhanced bleed (i.e.
>they suck in tournament evironment, sorry Legbiter).
I'd try to avoid lumping Gangrel and !Gangrel together. Last I looked, since
Bloodlines became legal in standard constructed play, Gangrel had significantly
more tournament wins then the number two clan*. Of course, since a lot of
those winning decks ran Dominate, this is just further evidence of how
overpowered Dominate is in the game.
* I wasn't that surprised Gangrel were #1, more so how far ahead they were.
#2 was a huge surprise.
!Gangrel would get more wins if people played !Gangrel (with Dominate) more
often, something much less difficult to do in recent years with the likes of
Sebastian and Soldat.
Anyway, this may or may not agree with what you said; I can't really tell. I
just want to make sure people don't get the wrong idea about the state of the
game.
XZealot
No dominate required, see below. replace with Purchase Pact.
> 2x Dreams of the Sphinx
> 2x Effective Management
> 1x Giant's Blood
> 1x Information Highway
> 3x Perfectionist
> 1x Rack, The
> 1x Zillah's Valley
>
> Reaction [16]
> 4x Eagle's Sight
> 8x Obedience
You should replace these with the Voice of Madness. At superior DEM
they are superior to Obedience at inferior dom as they can be used
against allies and they inflict damage.
David Cherryholmes
> David, I really like your deck, and I may even try to play it if I
> manage to find the needed cards :) But does this deck provide any
> arguments against my point of view? I claimed that S & B is the only
> tournament-viable strategy for anti-Malks, and this is yet another S &
> B deck that uses out-clan cards for combat protection (Obedience) and
> huge vampires to get that out-clan Discipline.
I wasn't replying to your broader point so much as the specific bit I
quoted. You can make an !Malk deck that can *survive* combat. Hitting
back in a meaningful way is more difficult, but in the case of the
!Malks I think rightly so.
> You could play Rachel Brandywine + Rodolfo + bunch of Protean skill
> cards to get access to Earth Meld, Form of Mist or even aggravated
> strikes... I've encountered such decks. But the question is getting
> some combat abilities (at least combat-avoidance) WITHOUT using
> out-clan Disciplines!
OK, but your assertion to which I was replying didn't say anything about
disciplines, just clan.
> Why it's possible to build Presence-only weenie
> decks and get both serious bleed and combat protection, while all
> three Malkavian disciplines cannot protect them and they should look
> for out-clan disciplines?
Well, I think a fair number of maneuver and presses does protect them.
I base this on playing a lot of CEL combat decks, where the same cards
you are using to beat the snot out of people create a built-in safety
net by letting you dodge, run away, and press out. I also play with CHI
frequently, and IMO one of the strengths of the discipline is getting
S:CE, Dodge, and +1 bleed folded into your stealth cards, which is
exactly the same thing you get from DEM. I'd guess (and it's just a
guess, since I don't play these guys much) that if you incorporated
these two points into your deck design, your Malks would survive just
fine. BTW, "just fine" is meant to mean that enough of your vampires
survive long enough to let you bleed your way to the GW before the last
one you can put on the table goes smoosh. Remember, they are called
*minions* for a reason.
> By the way, do you think that these Obediences would protect you
> against a rush deck? When a rush deck plays Haven Uncovered on your
> Hannibal, all his vampires can rush with +1 stealth! And even if you
> play Obedience on the first one, the second one would succeed.
Weenie rush and haven uncovered wears down most combat defenses. The
best answer to that is hitting back hard enough to torpor the rushers.
> IMHO,
> this deck utterly needs Secure Haven and Purchase Pact. But even those
> won't save all your vampires, and since you're playing huge vamps, you
> will suffer when you lose Hannibal or Maris Streck.
I just looked at Purchase Pact, and you and Xzealot are right. It's an
amazing card. Secure Haven was just an oversight.
--
David Cherryholmes
Darky
>
> > Where is Zip gun?
> I tried this, and I'm not a big fan of it. If opponent out-maneuver
> me, he knows that I'm going to shoot with Zip Gun, thus I cannot
> dodge, so he can launch any strike - Burning Wrath and so on.
Malkavians that dodge waste perfectly good deckspace, imo. If you're
outmaneuvered, you're usually screwed anyway against any decent combat
deck.
> > Hungry coyote is a good way to survive combat decks as well. (rescue
> > costs 2 actions and net 0 blood) Hunting is a good way to survive.
> > The Coven is in the same category.
>
> Torporized vampires cannot hunt. Vampires that resque other vampires
> from torpor cannot hunt as well. And there are vamps that can rush
> every turn without any cards, like Beast or Theo Bell.
Hungry coyote gives your guys more staying power. Beast or Theo Bell
will still have a good time around you, Your game just won't be ended
when they show up.
> > > Name: Run Away Like a Mad
> > > Cardtype: Combat
> > > Cost: 1 blood
> > > Discipline: Dementation
> > > Only usable before range is determined.
> > > [dem] Set the range for this round of combat to long. Skip the
> > > Determine Range step on this round. This minion gets an optional
> > > maneuver to long range on the next round of combat and can perform
> > > only dodge strikes during this combat.
> > > [DEM] As above, with an optional press, only usable to end combat.
>
> > How would a virtual combat ends, that indeed is too powerful (just
> > compare it to majesty or earth meld, which are either easily beaten by
> > immortal grapple, or belong to a clan which has limited access to
> > serious bleeding power(dom/pro works, but isn't quite as readily
> > available as dem/obf) enable Voting decks/Sybil's Tongue decks? Seems
> > to me like a good way to make !Malk even better S&B, which really
> > isn't neccessary.
>
> Hey, are you playing Immortal Grapple most of the time? :)
Actually, I hardly play IG.
> How can you consider this card too powerful? What about Alpha Glint
> that CANNOT be beaten by Immortal Grapple? What about Deer Rifle, that
> nearly always guarantee long distance? This card forces you to pay 1
> blood just for long distance, and you cannot shoot from there! Cailean
> chooses distance for free, and can shoot...
Alpha Glint doesn't go with obf+dom/pre/dem. If you think deer rifle
is comparable to this card, play it instead. Cailean is a single
vampire, a 10cap, and not really that great unless you build a deck
around him.
> "Serious bleeding power" really sounds strange. Dominate and Presence
> offer the same bleeding power or even stronger, but Dominate has
> Obediences, and Presence has Combat Ends. Does it frighten you? One
> can easily assemble dom/obf deck from first-group Malks and others
> that would bleed stronger and get protection from Obedience.
Fatcap bleed deck? Isnt this why you agitated against that
dem-obedience-lookalike? Presence and obfuscate aren't readily
available in conjunction with bounce-ability. Dominate and obfuscate
is only partially broken for the same reason Dem/Obf is, mainly that
the minions who have the filthy synergy, are, with exception of the
very highcaps, who either didn't act, or are swamped in wakes,
killable.
And yes, Obf/Dem or Obf/Dom sitting upstream from me does frighten me,
as it rightly should. I find consolation in that there's something to
do about it.
> How would Run Away enable voting/Sibyl's Tongue decks? Well, it would
> simply allow their vampires to live a bit longer.
Which would also make !malk S&B absolutely broken, which is something
to avoid.
> > <snip>
> > > Name: Madman's Fury
> > > Cardtype: Combat
> > > Cost: 2 blood
> > > Discipline: Dementation
> > > [dem] Strike: strength+1 aggravated damage. If this strike
> > > successfully resolves, send this minion into torpor after the
> > > resolution.
> > > [DEM] As above, with an optional maneuver to close range.
>
> > Potence, protean, viccisitude, and thaumaturgy decks usually don't
> > combine them with obf, and they aren't the best or maybe second best
> > bleeding discipline in the game either. Have you been troubled by
> > immortal grapple decks lately?
>
> OK, Stealth-Bleed is the common enemy, so let's punish it a lot!
> Don't you see that Madman's Fury is pure defensive card? Surely, if
> you think that any S&B deck should be punished, it would be hard to
> establish mutual understanding...
I don't think S&B should be punished. I think it shouldn't be improved
on too much. Coma is fine for defense, if you're playing them.
> No, I wasn't troubled by IG decks, since there are just a few Grapples
> in Minsk. But any combat deck (Toreador Blurred Magnums, Tremere
> Apportation/Theft and so on) easily destroys Malkavians :(
When they come in combat, which you therefore should avoid. Any
malkavian deck easily destroys most decks when they don't come in
combat. Trying to counteract this will only make them too strong.
> > I believe I do have a tournament worthy !Malk based deck, which isn't
> > S&B. If you're interested, toss me a mail at
> > bv...@cut.this.out.phil.uu.nl :)
>
> Thank you, I'll try :)
>
> Ector
-Bram Vink
salem
scrawled:
[snip]
>> Reaction [16]
>> 4x Eagle's Sight
>> 8x Obedience
>
>You should replace these with the Voice of Madness. At superior DEM
>they are superior to Obedience at inferior dom as they can be used
>against allies and they inflict damage.
Voice of Madness requires a block. Obediance does not. If they're
havening uncoverding, or some other stealth actions or stealth mods,
you're very boned if you only have Voice of Madness. That, and it
costs a blood. Oh and they don't inflict damage, they just burn a
blood or life. which is arguably better against allies (such as
ambrosius) but worse against vampires (as empty ones won't go to
torpor).
and to reply to someone else's comment about Obediance at basic only
saving you against one Haven attack. that doesn't make sense. you'll
still be untapped. the attacker will also be untapped, but may not use
the haven again by NRA. you can then play Obediance on the next guy
that uses the haven, too, if you have one in hand. You then use one of
your many actions to burn the haven during your own turn. as the
rusher will have cycled pretty much 0 cards, he's unlikely to have a
new haven by his next turn, unless his deck is packed with them, in
which case the combats probably wouldn't be too scary anyway as he'd
jam on masters half way through trying to pound your guys.
XZealot
>>
>> Name: Run Away Like a Mad
>> Cardtype: Combat
>> Cost: 1 blood
>> Discipline: Dementation
>> Only usable before range is determined.
>> [dem] Set the range for this round of combat to long. Skip the
>> Determine Range step on this round. This minion gets an optional
>> maneuver to long range on the next round of combat and can perform
>> only dodge strikes during this combat.
>> [DEM] As above, with an optional press, only usable to end combat
>>
>> It sets range which hoses a great number of combat decks for 1
blood
>> which is insane, no pun intended. If it cost one pool, then I
might
>> consider it. If it cost one pool, required a !Malk and was an OOT
>> Master then it would be balanced. !Malks/Malks are the steamroller
of
>> VTES. They make you lose, and if you try to stand in their way,
then
>> they make you lose faster.
>>
>Run Away Like a Mad is broken?
Yes, not quite as broken as RtI but still broken.
>What about Obedience, that cost NO
blood?
Obedience is a reaction card so is only usable when it is not your
turn, and is only usable by an older vampire against vampires so Igrid
Russo can't play it against Beast or Renagade Garou, and also is only
anti-combat. These three restrictions versus Run Away like Mad which
can be used during any combat regardless of who's turn it is, is
usable against any vampire or ally for that matter, or can be used to
enhance combat (i.e. Eddie Gaines 1 cap pot dem Run Away Like Mad then
run over you with a Stunt Cycle, wasn't that fun).
>What about Elysium: the Arboretum and Purchase Pact that are
PERMANENT and cost no blood?
Both are masters so are self limiting, and can only be used by
Camrilla vs Camrilla or Sabbat vs. Sabbat, and each is burnable by an
action, so they are NOT PERMANENT.
What about Earth Meld that provide S:CE
and untap for free?
Gangrel/!Gangrel discipline which is versatile yet doesn't generate
bleed and these two clans have limited access to enhanced bleed (i.e.
they suck in tournament evironment, sorry Legbiter).
> All these cards are FAR MORE EFFECTIVE than Run
Away Like a Mad.
(In an effort to not cause an international scandal this section was
deleted)
That is just simply not true for all the reasons I have listed.
>Unfortunately, !Malks cannot use them. Why don't you
>consider other range-setting cards broken for the same reason?
Because they are balanced versus Run Away Like Mad which is not for
the above reasons and quite a few more.
> Cailean
>and Sniper Rifle should be banned, since they provide this ability
>CONSTANTLY and FOR FREE, and there is Shadow Step...
Let's compare these on a case by case basis.
1) Cailean- 10 cap vampire so NOT FREE, takes 3 turns to influence
out, unique, only vampire in the game with that ability, versus Run
Away Like Mad and the faceless horde of demenation weenies. 0-1 You
lose.
2) Sniper Rifle- equiment, costs an action which is blockable, costs 2
pool so NOT FREE, only usable when you block an action versus Run Away
Like Mad which can be used any time. 0-2 You lose.
3) Shadow Step- Requires Superior Obtenebration, rarer than hen's
teeth at a denture convention (note, this will soon be changed), must
burn 2 blood, NOT FREE, doesn't provide anything else versus Run Away
Like Mad which sets range gives you a maneuver and a press at superior
and turns into a pizza, a six pack and a supermodel when no one else
is around. 0-3 You lose
>In reality, Run Away Like a Mad hoses only Immortal Grapple decks.
And
>even those decks often use Thrown Sewer Lids to punish maneuvers and
>press to the next round of combat.
(again section was deleted to keep World War from being started over
silliness, see Hitler losing at checkers to a French foreign exchange
student)
You should be satisfied with success. !Malks presence skews the game
to combat. You should take it as a compliment.
>> !Malks/Malks are the steamroller of VTES. They make you lose, and
if you try > to stand in their way, then they make you lose faster.
>Yes, Malks/!Malks are uber-aggressive, since they cannot do anything
>except for bleeding at stealth, and they cannot defend themselves, so
>they are forced to hurry. Both their predator and their prey usually
>pound them with a full force, and their grandprey is also against
>them.
>Provide !Malks with a decent defense, and they won't be
>uber-aggressive anymore, since it is disadvantageous to have the
>entire table against you. They would wait for Madman's Quill and a
>couple of Eyes of Chaos, and they would oust their prey quickly and
>suddenly, just like many decks do with Governs and Conditionings now.
They don't have to do anything other than bleed at stealth to win.
Let's all cry for the poor !Malks who crush newbies and slow decks
like grains of corn under a millstone. If we play a game of
appeasement, then maybe they will hold back and not beat everyone like
a drum. Oh no not everyone, if you pack bounce then you don't lose
to them. Gee thanks lets wall paper half the clans in the game. Oh,
no it doesn't they can rush. Oh, really that's why we can't make the
!Malks good at combat because then everything else will suck. Blah,
Blah, Blah, Blah....I can't hear you because I have my hands over my
ears....I have a force field on you can't touch me....
Becoming insane is looking better and better all the time.
Comments Welcome,
Jeff Kuta
> Last I looked, since
> Bloodlines became legal in standard constructed play, Gangrel had significantly
> more tournament wins then the number two clan*. Of course, since a lot of
> those winning decks ran Dominate, this is just further evidence of how
> overpowered Dominate is in the game.
>
> * I wasn't that surprised Gangrel were #1, more so how far ahead they were.
> #2 was a huge surprise.
Yeah, Protean sucks.
Earth Meld at superior needs to cost 1 blood to untap.
Even if it were exactly like old Majesty where they had the option to
pay 1 blood for the untap, it would be just fine.
JEff
J
> can Disguise them, but I don't think this deck can survive blocking
> long enough. Sometimes your minions will be able to shoot from the
> long distance without any loss of blood, but this is very unlikely
> against any deck with a decent combat module.
There are a decent number of maneuvers in the deck, some dodges, some
combat ends. From my experience combat is the archetype that misses
out most at tournaments. Granted I haven't been to as many
tournaments as a lot of you chaps, but I still think that this deck
could do well in a tournament situation.
If you fail to
> out-maneuver Grapple deck, your Kite will be torporized. Blur+Magnum
> will almost always kill him.
Blur/Magnum tends to kill most vampires without fortitude.
Even a simple Theft of Vitae would drain
> his blood, and you cannot restore it. But the most obvious example is
> a simple Brujah long-range deck, easily assembled from two Brujah
> starters: maneuver from Flash or Thrown Gate, Blur, Thrown Sewer Lid.
How often do you see these? They aren't viable as a dedicated
tournament winning strategy. I've played LOTS of long range combat
decks, and they're played for fun first and foremost. They win more
by arse than class.
> And how
> are you going to pay for those Flamethrowers? And how are you going to
> defend against a good S&B deck (that CAN get past your intercept) with
> only four Telepathic Misdirections?
You have the intercept to catch most stealth actions. It's not that
hard really.
I won a tournament (and a heavy S&B metagame event it was) with a deck
that had a similar intercept module to this one. Granted it was a
country !Gangrel deck based around Omaya, but the premis is still the
same.
> And how are you going to oust your prey? Do you really think that your
> Kite would be able to block for several turns and then spend 3 blood
> on the Pulse?
Kite doesn't get the Pulse.
> Look, I appreciate your effort, but nobody can assemble a good
> !Malkavian deck that should survive combat on a regular basis. There
> aren't needed cards for it, at least now.
If I had the full range of cards for this deck, I'd build it. But I'm
down a couple of library cards and many vamps, not having collected
!Malks much.
--> J
Ector
> >Run Away Like a Mad is broken?
> Yes, not quite as broken as RtI but still broken.
>
> What about Obedience, that cost NO blood?
>
> Obedience is a reaction card so is only usable when it is not your
> turn, and is only usable by an older vampire against vampires so Igrid
> Russo can't play it against Beast or Renagade Garou, and also is only
> anti-combat. These three restrictions versus Run Away like Mad which
> can be used during any combat regardless of who's turn it is, is
> usable against any vampire or ally for that matter, or can be used to
> enhance combat (i.e. Eddie Gaines 1 cap pot dem Run Away Like Mad then
> run over you with a Stunt Cycle, wasn't that fun).
Please READ the card text prior to call it broken!!! :)
Run Away Like a Mad states "this minion...can perform only dodge
strikes during this combat", so Stunt Cycle cannot be played. Surely,
if the card allowed Stunt Cycle, it would be broken! But I
specifically designed the card to be pure defensive. So it wouldn't be
advantageous to use it on your turn anyway, unless you get caught,
which isn't likely to happen with !Malk stealth.
> >What about Elysium: the Arboretum and Purchase Pact that are
> PERMANENT and cost no blood?
>
> Both are masters so are self limiting, and can only be used by
> Camrilla vs Camrilla or Sabbat vs. Sabbat, and each is burnable by an
> action, so they are NOT PERMANENT.
Surely, they work only against the same sect. Now what? One Elysium
will grant a Ventrue political deck almost complete protection against
Brujah rush deck, but you still aren't calling it broken. Come on,
which combat deck can pass a political referendum against a voting
deck? If a deck can be shut with a single card, it's still OK, right?
As long as the winning deck is not S&B, of course :)
> What about Earth Meld that provide S:CE
> and untap for free?
>
> Gangrel/!Gangrel discipline which is versatile yet doesn't generate
> bleed and these two clans have limited access to enhanced bleed (i.e.
> they suck in tournament evironment, sorry Legbiter).
You are completely wrong here, but Curevei already answered you. Tier
of Souls and Army of Rats are permanent bleed-enhancers, as are
retainers like Tasha Morgan. Moreover, there are numerous
Gangrel/!Gangrel with dom/DOM, and Dominate is the BEST bleeding
discipline in the game. One can use Caitlin, Soldat, Sebastian Goulet
and even Hartmut Stover in a PRO/dom/obf deck.
> > All these cards are FAR MORE EFFECTIVE than Run
> Away Like a Mad.
>
> (In an effort to not cause an international scandal this section was
> deleted)
>
> That is just simply not true for all the reasons I have listed.
OK, I'm also trying to be patient... Just read the card text prior to
calling it broken :)
>
> > Cailean
> >and Sniper Rifle should be banned, since they provide this ability
> >CONSTANTLY and FOR FREE, and there is Shadow Step...
>
> Let's compare these on a case by case basis.
>
> 1) Cailean- 10 cap vampire so NOT FREE, takes 3 turns to influence
> out, unique, only vampire in the game with that ability, versus Run
> Away Like Mad and the faceless horde of demenation weenies. 0-1 You
> lose.
Cailean - you can build a deck on him that would completely shut all
close-ranged combat decks, since his ability is permanent and free.
Faceless horde of dementation weenies with Run Away Like a Mad that
cost 1 blood? What about a horde of Presence weenies with Majesties?
Majesty is much better for a weenie deck, since it untaps a vampire at
superior. And you cannot find non-internal 3-cap and 4-cap vamps with
superior Dementation while there are Gideon Fountaine, Violette
Prentiss and Mariana Gilbert with PRE. Now what? Does Presence weenie
dominate the game?
Score: 0-0. Your arguments weren't strong enough.
> 2) Sniper Rifle- equiment, costs an action which is blockable, costs 2
> pool so NOT FREE, only usable when you block an action versus Run Away
> Like Mad which can be used any time. 0-2 You lose.
Sniper Rifle can be equipped by ANY vampire with Concealed Weapon.
Moreover, not every deck can block +1 stealth action. Paying 2 pool
once is much better than paying 1 blood repeatedly (say, 10 times for
a long game). Sniper Rifle provides long range plus 2R damage without
any additional cards and without blood loss, while Run Away Like a Mad
allows only dodges.
Score: 1-0 I win :)
> 3) Shadow Step- Requires Superior Obtenebration, rarer than hen's
> teeth at a denture convention (note, this will soon be changed), must
> burn 2 blood, NOT FREE, doesn't provide anything else versus Run Away
> Like Mad which sets range gives you a maneuver and a press at superior
> and turns into a pizza, a six pack and a supermodel when no one else
> is around. 0-3 You lose
Shadow Step: Did we talk about rareness? The card exists, and it's
going to be reprinted. NOT FREE? Looks like Run Away Like a Mad is
free! Doesn't give you extra maneuver and press? But you can play
Shadow Step + Ahriman's Demesne to BURN a vampire (even Cailean!),
while Run Away only allows dodging...
Score: 2-0 you lose.
> You should be satisfied with success. !Malks presence skews the game
> to combat. You should take it as a compliment.
Looks like you totally missed the point of my newsletter. I can be
proud that ant-Malks can assemble a good stealth-bleed deck (or even a
best S&B deck), but it would be great if they could play something
else as well. Run Away Like a Mad plus dodges would enable at least
casual intercept and protection for voting and Sibyl's Tongue decks.
> >> !Malks/Malks are the steamroller of VTES. They make you lose, and
> if you try > to stand in their way, then they make you lose faster.
>
> >Yes, Malks/!Malks are uber-aggressive, since they cannot do anything
> >except for bleeding at stealth, and they cannot defend themselves, so
> >they are forced to hurry. Both their predator and their prey usually
> >pound them with a full force, and their grandprey is also against
> >them.
> >Provide !Malks with a decent defense, and they won't be
> >uber-aggressive anymore, since it is disadvantageous to have the
> >entire table against you. They would wait for Madman's Quill and a
> >couple of Eyes of Chaos, and they would oust their prey quickly and
> >suddenly, just like many decks do with Governs and Conditionings now.
>
> They don't have to do anything other than bleed at stealth to win.
> Let's all cry for the poor !Malks who crush newbies and slow decks
> like grains of corn under a millstone. If we play a game of
> appeasement, then maybe they will hold back and not beat everyone like
> a drum. Oh no not everyone, if you pack bounce then you don't lose
> to them. Gee thanks lets wall paper half the clans in the game. Oh,
> no it doesn't they can rush. Oh, really that's why we can't make the
> !Malks good at combat because then everything else will suck. Blah,
> Blah, Blah, Blah....I can't hear you because I have my hands over my
> ears....I have a force field on you can't touch me....
>
> Becoming insane is looking better and better all the time.
"I can't hear you because I have my hands over my ears". Looks like
that's true. If S&B decks were so potent as you state, some cards
should be banned right now. Bleed can be intercepted, it can be
redirected or Investigated by Archons.
Now, what about "wall-papering half the clans in the game"? I can do
nothing better than citing the classic article by Kevin Scribner:
/////---------------- start of citation
since bleed bounce is quite possibly the most important watermark in
the division between tourney-caliber and non-tourney-caliber decks
[this is, of course, a gross generilization], the following clans are,
therefore, relegated to a certain second-class status:
nostferatu
!nosferatu
gangrel
!gangrel
assamites
setites
ravnos
brujah
!brujah
blood brothers
gargoyles
ahrimanes
samedi
in certain cases, however, you will find that there are enough higher
capacity vampires in some of the above-listed clans to allow you to
build decks that are capable of bleed bounce: my setite, ravnos, and
gangrel decks are examples of crypts maximizing the appearance of
dominate, as an out-of-clan discipline, so as to provide bleed bounce
as a defensive posture...
i have found, however, that in the cases where it is not possible to
incorporate dominate as an out-of-clan discipline, i am often required
to use more intrusive methods of insuring that my deck does not drop
off to power bleed predators [or succumb to a simple, yet terminal,
case of "the bleed stops here"]... in such instances, i have found
that using weenie auspex defense packages is pretty much the best way
to go...
/////-------------------- end of citation
In case you didn't know, bleed isn't exclusive Malkavian trait, not
even stealth-bleed. Lasombra can bleed at stealth while still having
two good combat disciplines. It's quite possible to build DOM/OBF
decks, too. Thus, your position "stealth-bleed is dangerous, so it
should be easily pummeled" looks like very strange.
Ector
Ector
> and to reply to someone else's comment about Obediance at basic only
> saving you against one Haven attack. that doesn't make sense. you'll
> still be untapped. the attacker will also be untapped, but may not use
> the haven again by NRA. you can then play Obediance on the next guy
> that uses the haven, too, if you have one in hand.
> salem
> domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
> (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
Surely, you can play the second Obedience if you have it :) But it's
unlikely with only 8 Obediences in the deck and against rush predator
or prey. That's all I wanted so say.
Moreover, even if you have two Obediences, your opponent may have
three minions :( And even if he doesn't, inferior Obedience untaps his
vampire, so he can play Bum's Rush...
Ector
Ector
> On 4 Nov 2004 23:29:18 -0800, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
>
> > Presence-based deck can use 10 Majesty for combat protection, and they
> > do the job nicely. Can you provide a decent combat abilities for
> > !Malks with just 10 cards? I think no.
>
> 5 Deny and 5 Swallowed gives you some protection. Many times controlling
> the range and the presses allows you to survive combat. Your benefit - for
> foregoing the instant S:CE of Majesty - is that you can cycle these cards
> as stealth when needed.
5 Deny and 5 Swallowed gives only casual protection. Deny is good
against Tremeres and Traps, but Potence clans or Magnums/Blurs usually
torporize my vamps in the first round. Swallowed doesn't save from
Thefts of Vitae or Magnums, and some Brujah can Throw Sewer Lids. When
both your predator and your prey are rush decks, and they both pound
you, such cards are too weak.
> >> Just like the Ventrue can, occasionally, be the serious roughing-up
> >> guys at a non-combat table by virtue of Island of Yiaros alone, so
> >> can the !Malks beat other decks by using the cards I mentioned.
> >
> > My answer is the same: the Island is a serious combat ability for a
> > SINGLE deck slot. Malkavian antitribu would definitely use such card
> > if they had it :)
>
> Flamethrower.
Paying 4 pool for a weapon without inbuilt maneuver? All the table
would rush the vampire with Flamethrower, torporize and diablerize him
to get the weapon for free. I experienced this with my Ivory Bow.
> You try this:
>
> 1 Secure Haven
>
> 1 Read Intentions
> 1 Quick Exit
> 1 Dodge
> 1 Reality Mirror
> 2 Coma
>
> 5 Deny
> 5 Swallowed
>
> Should work as a solid base for most regular tournaments with (D) Combat.
I tried the similar module (though I have only two Denies, alas). I
play with two Secure Havens, Ivory Bow, 5 Dodges and even tried Marie
Faucigny... Not a chance. When I put some Disguised Weapons, I've just
got a pointless deck that was weak in combat anyway.
> >> By including a fair share of combat-use cards in my !Malk SB deck, I
> >> was able to, on different occasions, tip the scales in my favor by
> >> beating up opposing vampires.
> >
> > "On different occasions" are the keywords :)
>
> That simply means "once in a while". My primary winning strategy was
> bleeding and reducing pool. Occasionally I won by killing an important
> vampire, but that was only a spinoff of my combat defence.
Surely, S&B deck isn't a rush deck. Sometimes I got lucky, and combat
decks start to pound each other, or I manage to threat with Kindred
Spirits... But most of the time all my vampires are torporized. If I
manage to find Secure Haven in time, sometimes I can even oust my prey
with a single vampire.
> > Now what? A single Beast still can pound all my vampires with a few
> > cards :(
>
> If the Beast is your predator, you simply stop influencing out vampires
> until the player is ousted. If it is your prey, you proceed to burn it
> along the other posessions of his controller (ousting him).
What if the player oust me first?
> >> Did you consider something along the lines of Capitalist + Sleep Unseen?
> >> Or Concealed Weapon + Flash Grenade?
> >
> > Too many cards needed, too slight chances to get them in time, and
> > both combos are one-shot.
>
> You do not really need to have a pansion plan with Stealth Bleed. You kill
> one guy in a matter of turns, then proceed. You execute the combos once in
> a while, and you gain the edge you needed to oust your prey. Afterwards,
> his or her minions won't matter anymore.
Look, I don't want playing S&B anymore, since I'm tired to be a
"common enemy", and I'm forced to switch to another clan, since !Malks
cannot do nothing except for bleeding at stealth.
Ector
Ector
> >There were only "few occasions"? Lucky you! My S&B is constantly
> >beaten up even by the deck assembled from two Brujah starters! All
> >players here in Minsk (including myself) are novices, and starters are
> >the primary sources of cards here. Nearly half of our players are
> >playing rush decks... Guess what are your chances between two rush
> >decks? Moreover, if your grandprey can rush, he will rush you too!
>
How can I adjust S&B deck to environment with two long-range Brujah
deck, one Nosferatu Immortal Grapple deck, one Toreador Magnum/Blur
deck and a couple of Tremere intercept/combat decks?
> Your point about the !Malks having a dearth of reasonable offensive combat
> options is valid. But, there are 33 clans in the game, and, at least, this > one
> clan has good winning options and some not so good options that might interest
> someone, e.g. prison.
My point was about !Malks having a dearth of good DEFENSIVE combat
options.
Surely, each clan should have some winning options (or it would be
virtually dead in the game), but the single winning option for a clan
makes playing the clan dull.
> I'd like to see more clans not have to rely on equipment or out of clan
> disciplines for reasonable offensive combat, but I don't consider it a top
> priority to address this for every clan that has the problem. For instance,
> I'd much more be interested in Melpominee getting an offensive combat card than
> Dementation. I'd be more interested in a disciplineless bounce card being
> made. I'd be even more interested in new clans and disciplines.
Well, who am I to say that your ideas aren't reasonable?
> As for defensive combat, taken together, the options available are not
> particularly bad.
>
> You said "By the way, any "stealth & something" deck has very
> little free space, since it has to contain stealth cards and primary
> strategy cards (i.e. bleed cards in a stealth-bleed deck)."
>
> I don't agree with that. Stealth bleed has more free space than most
> archetypes, which allows it to devote extra slots to combat if it feels like
> it.
Believe me, I tried to put a lot of defensive cards in my S&B decks.
20 cards (including combo cards like Deny and Swallowed) was not
enough, nearly 30 was needed, and the deck became pointless. Maybe,
S&B has more free space than intercept/combat decks, but they are
second from the bottom :)
Yours,
Ector
salem
erm, so replacing the 8 obediance with 8 's:ce' for !malks would, erm,
be better at fixing that sort of thing? i don't see exactly where
you're trying to go with this. sure, if you run out of combat defense
before the combat deck runs out of combat/rush, you're boned. but
that's not dependant on it being Obediance or whatever. it's just how
this game works....
Daneel
> Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message
> news:<opsgzfn9...@news.chello.hu>...
>> On 4 Nov 2004 23:29:18 -0800, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote:
>>
>> > Presence-based deck can use 10 Majesty for combat protection, and they
>> > do the job nicely. Can you provide a decent combat abilities for
>> > !Malks with just 10 cards? I think no.
>>
>> 5 Deny and 5 Swallowed gives you some protection. Many times controlling
>> the range and the presses allows you to survive combat. Your benefit -
>> for
>> foregoing the instant S:CE of Majesty - is that you can cycle these
>> cards
>> as stealth when needed.
>
> 5 Deny and 5 Swallowed gives only casual protection. Deny is good
> against Tremeres and Traps, but Potence clans or Magnums/Blurs usually
> torporize my vamps in the first round.
Potence has access to Immoral Grapple. CEL decks with guns usually pack
Psyche!-s. I'm not sure how any non-combat clan that does not have
fortitude
would fare better than the good ole' madmen. At least you can use Swallowed
and Coma to make a CEL guns deck think. Or, if the POT guy can't kill you
on
round one, you might as well Deny him the opportunity to correct that
mistake on round two.
Or just pack 10× Swallowed and 10× Deny and then you can Run like a Madman.
> Swallowed doesn't save from
> Thefts of Vitae or Magnums, and some Brujah can Throw Sewer Lids.
Yeah, true. And some decks use ANI POT FOR, and play Drawing out the Beast,
Torn Signpost, Immoral Grapple, Pushing the Limit, Skin of Steel, Disarm,
Decapitate, Taste of Vitae in this particular sequence. Some decks pack War
Ghouls that do 4 damage and even prevent 1 each round. There are Renegade
Garou, who regenerate. So what? No deck can withstand everything. What it
can withstand, though, is a reasonable offence mounted by a reasonable
deck.
> When
> both your predator and your prey are rush decks, and they both pound
> you, such cards are too weak.
Sometimes they are enough. I was seated once between a Shambling hordes
predator and a Basilia multirush prey. The very cards I mentioned earlier
allowed me to kill my prey without my vampires getting beat up. Try it.
>> >> Just like the Ventrue can, occasionally, be the serious roughing-up
>> >> guys at a non-combat table by virtue of Island of Yiaros alone, so
>> >> can the !Malks beat other decks by using the cards I mentioned.
>> >
>> > My answer is the same: the Island is a serious combat ability for a
>> > SINGLE deck slot. Malkavian antitribu would definitely use such card
>> > if they had it :)
>>
>> Flamethrower.
> Paying 4 pool for a weapon without inbuilt maneuver? All the table
> would rush the vampire with Flamethrower, torporize and diablerize him
> to get the weapon for free. I experienced this with my Ivory Bow.
I'm getting the feeling that that's some chip on your shoulder. Relax
and embrace insanity. The madmen are quite formidable in their own right.
>> You try this:
>>
>> 1 Secure Haven
>>
>> 1 Read Intentions
>> 1 Quick Exit
>> 1 Dodge
>> 1 Reality Mirror
>> 2 Coma
>>
>> 5 Deny
>> 5 Swallowed
>>
>> Should work as a solid base for most regular tournaments with (D)
>> Combat.
>
> I tried the similar module (though I have only two Denies, alas). I
> play with two Secure Havens, Ivory Bow, 5 Dodges and even tried Marie
> Faucigny... Not a chance. When I put some Disguised Weapons, I've just
> got a pointless deck that was weak in combat anyway.
That's not a similar module. That's a module with a similar purpose. Try
a similar module. The 5 Deny/Swallowed and the Reality Mirror are key
cards.
>> >> By including a fair share of combat-use cards in my !Malk SB deck, I
>> >> was able to, on different occasions, tip the scales in my favor by
>> >> beating up opposing vampires.
>> >
>> > "On different occasions" are the keywords :)
>>
>> That simply means "once in a while". My primary winning strategy was
>> bleeding and reducing pool. Occasionally I won by killing an important
>> vampire, but that was only a spinoff of my combat defence.
>
> Surely, S&B deck isn't a rush deck. Sometimes I got lucky, and combat
> decks start to pound each other, or I manage to threat with Kindred
> Spirits.. But most of the time all my vampires are torporized. If I
> manage to find Secure Haven in time, sometimes I can even oust my prey
> with a single vampire.
I must point out though that the specifics/preferences of a given playgroup
(often called metagame) can present issues that other groups do not have.
You seem to have a very tight group, where everyone plays combat, except
for
you, and you are always marked as public enemy #1, and getting pummeled to
death. You must understand that htat is not the case in most of the
playgroups.
Combat is currently the longest of the three basic paths to victory, both
bleed and politics being way shorter and more direct. So most playgroups/
tournaments feature far more bleeding and/or voting decks than they
feature combat.
>> > Now what? A single Beast still can pound all my vampires with a few
>> > cards :(
>>
>> If the Beast is your predator, you simply stop influencing out vampires
>> until the player is ousted. If it is your prey, you proceed to burn it
>> along the other posessions of his controller (ousting him).
>
> What if the player oust me first?
Then something is wrong. You have a predator who cannot basically use his
cards against you (no minions - no damage possible through combat cards).
So he will probably bleed you for one at a time, but most likely, he will
get into a mutual bash-fest with his predator.
Your prey - without a predator - will be strong, and probably enter a
similar bash-fest with his prey. In the end you'll probably end up not
being bothered too much.
I sometimes use this tactic against offensive combat predators. They get
ousted extremely quick if they can't bash me up, and then I'm back with
a vengeance. ;)
>> You do not really need to have a pansion plan with Stealth Bleed. You
>> kill
>> one guy in a matter of turns, then proceed. You execute the combos once
>> in
>> a while, and you gain the edge you needed to oust your prey. Afterwards,
>> his or her minions won't matter anymore.
>
> Look, I don't want playing S&B anymore, since I'm tired to be a
> "common enemy", and I'm forced to switch to another clan, since !Malks
> cannot do nothing except for bleeding at stealth.
Inherently flawed assumption. Please reconsider. Forsightful deck design
and clever play can hand you almost any table. Use the ancient teachings
of the VTES grandmasters like Sun Tzu to achieve the desired victory.
--
Bye,
Daneel
Ector
> Auspex has several neat tricks up its sleeve - Aura Reading is actually
> quite cool at inferior. I prefer that to the superior, anyhow - though
> card cycling is also good! And if you're blocking with intercept, you
> have quite a few other bits and pieces at your disposal. Particularly,
> The Spirit's Touch and Precognition. Intercept and (conditional on
> blocking) combat defence isn't to be sniffed at.
I played two Aura Reading in my S&B deck to cycle unwanted cards and
look for my combat cards, but recently my crypt shifted from AUS to
DEM, and superior Auspex is rare. Inferior is really useful only for a
combat deck, IMHO.
> Similarly, I'm a self-confessed fan of Swallowed by the Night for that
> flexibility.
The card is good without any doubts. Unfortunately, it isn't a savior.
> Additionally, I think you're missing one of the coolest cards the !Malks
> have. Don't go into combat yourself - get an Escaped Mental Patient to
> do it and annoy the Methuselah who's troubling you...
Surely, I tried the Patients! Did you see my Deck of the Month? :)
Unfortunately, there are too many long-range combat decks here.
> I also think you'd do well to investigate some of the non-combat
> possibilities available to all which can help you avoid combat. Change
> of Target might be particularly worthwhile, if it's block/combat that's
> most troubling. Or you could have a big "bruiser" lurking around. The
> vampire who got the .44 Magnum, Ivory Bow or whatever floats your boat.
> Yeah, not the best combat in the world, but if you're going to be
> blocked, throw down a Mask of a Thousand Faces. And since the acting
> vampire you had is now untapped, you still have a rescuer available
> potentially, if he does go down (barring burning by massive agg
> damage/Amaranth). If you can generate a fair few vampires, Precognizant
> Mobility might be worth considering to re-untap him - there are a few
> weenie-ish vampires with AUS to think about, and you might generate some
> if you wanted to play that way, for an Embrace/Creation Rites swarm-ish
> bleed. Or perhaps Metro Underground for the block/deterrent capability
> later which is a card I keep trying to find space for, as I think it'll
> turn out okay if you have a reasonable blood flow. Weenie obf, Creation
> Rites/Embrace, Psychic Veil, Tribute to the Master pool gain swarm-isg
> bleed could have sufficient pool to afford it all, along with some
> bigger vampires.
>
Actually, I rarely get caught, as there are just few intercept deck
here. But I'm constantly being rushed, and sometimes I'm forced to
block myself. If my Patient keeps opponents from attacking for at
least two turns, I think he worth his 2 pool. Embrace or Creation
Rites would serve the same purpose - protect main bleeders from
attacks.
But I already sick and tired with S&B, and I'd like to play something
else (i.e. Sibyl's Tongue combo-deck). Unfortunately, these decks
aren't real since they require too many slots for defence.
Ector
Ector
> > Please try playing your deck. Surely, you've got good weapons and you
> > can Disguise them, but I don't think this deck can survive blocking
> > long enough. Sometimes your minions will be able to shoot from the
> > long distance without any loss of blood, but this is very unlikely
> > against any deck with a decent combat module.
>
> There are a decent number of maneuvers in the deck, some dodges, some
> combat ends. From my experience combat is the archetype that misses
> out most at tournaments. Granted I haven't been to as many
> tournaments as a lot of you chaps, but I still think that this deck
> could do well in a tournament situation.
Oh, I'm playing V:teS only a few months, so you probably have more
tournament experience :) Unfortunately, our metagame is far from
"professional", as most our decks are made from a couple of starters,
so we have long-range Brujah decks, long-range Tremere decks, and so
on.
> If you fail to
> > out-maneuver Grapple deck, your Kite will be torporized. Blur+Magnum
> > will almost always kill him.
>
> Blur/Magnum tends to kill most vampires without fortitude.
It probably would, but if you can strike back, opponent should think
twice about rushing/blocking you. Unfortunately, we cannot strike back
(without Ivory Bow or Flamethrower), and the opponent knows this. So,
he is free to do all he wants.
> Even a simple Theft of Vitae would drain
> > his blood, and you cannot restore it. But the most obvious example is
> > a simple Brujah long-range deck, easily assembled from two Brujah
> > starters: maneuver from Flash or Thrown Gate, Blur, Thrown Sewer Lid.
>
> How often do you see these? They aren't viable as a dedicated
> tournament winning strategy. I've played LOTS of long range combat
> decks, and they're played for fun first and foremost. They win more
> by arse than class.
Absolutely! Unfortunately, I see these quite often, since there are at
least two such decks here.
> > And how
> > are you going to pay for those Flamethrowers? And how are you going to
> > defend against a good S&B deck (that CAN get past your intercept) with
> > only four Telepathic Misdirections?
>
> You have the intercept to catch most stealth actions. It's not that
> hard really.
>
> I won a tournament (and a heavy S&B metagame event it was) with a deck
> that had a similar intercept module to this one. Granted it was a
> country !Gangrel deck based around Omaya, but the premis is still the
> same.
Well, I assume your Omaya didn't pay 4 pool for Flamethrower :)
Omaya is extremely good, as you can block, look at the opponent's
strike and decide, whether you play that Earth Meld/Skin of Steel or
her prevention ability would be enough :) This deck wouls behave
completely different, I assure! :)
> > Look, I appreciate your effort, but nobody can assemble a good
> > !Malkavian deck that should survive combat on a regular basis. There
> > aren't needed cards for it, at least now.
>
> If I had the full range of cards for this deck, I'd build it. But I'm
> down a couple of library cards and many vamps, not having collected
> !Malks much.
>
> --> J
Well, you can proxy the deck and play it with your friends. I always
proxy new decks prior to getting the cards.
Yours,
Ector
David Cherryholmes
> Actually, I rarely get caught, as there are just few intercept deck
> here. But I'm constantly being rushed, and sometimes I'm forced to
> block myself. If my Patient keeps opponents from attacking for at
> least two turns, I think he worth his 2 pool. Embrace or Creation
> Rites would serve the same purpose - protect main bleeders from
> attacks.
So let me get this straight.... your environment is you playing stealth
bleed, and lots of other people playing rush? And how often would you
say you win games? And if that percentage is where I think it is,
what's the problem?
> But I already sick and tired with S&B, and I'd like to play something
> else (i.e. Sibyl's Tongue combo-deck). Unfortunately, these decks
> aren't real since they require too many slots for defence.
Oh, this is the problem. Look, chucking together a stealth bleed deck
tends to be the one of the first things new players do. It's obvious,
it's simple, and it works. I think what you are experiencing is growing
pains, as you look for other strategies and then begin banging your head
against the wall, trying to make them anywhere near as good as
stealth-bleed. Over the long haul, they won't be. Stealth bleed is the
best strategy, and bore-me-to-tears Kindred Spirits bleed is *the best
deck in the game*. Yes, our beloved game has a best deck, even though
we'd like to think it shouldn't, and it's your clan's signature deck.
Perhaps you should factor that in, that you are using something five
times better than it has a right to be as your benchmark.
--
David Cherryholmes
XZealot
>
> > >Run Away Like a Mad is broken?
> > Yes, not quite as broken as RtI but still broken.
> >
> > What about Obedience, that cost NO blood?
> >
> > Obedience is a reaction card so is only usable when it is not your
> > turn, and is only usable by an older vampire against vampires so Igrid
> > Russo can't play it against Beast or Renagade Garou, and also is only
> > anti-combat. These three restrictions versus Run Away like Mad which
> > can be used during any combat regardless of who's turn it is, is
> > usable against any vampire or ally for that matter, or can be used to
> > enhance combat (i.e. Eddie Gaines 1 cap pot dem Run Away Like Mad then
> > run over you with a Stunt Cycle, wasn't that fun).
>
> Please READ the card text prior to call it broken!!! :)
> Run Away Like a Mad states "this minion...can perform only dodge
> strikes during this combat", so Stunt Cycle cannot be played. Surely,
> if the card allowed Stunt Cycle, it would be broken! But I
> specifically designed the card to be pure defensive. So it wouldn't be
> advantageous to use it on your turn anyway, unless you get caught,
> which isn't likely to happen with !Malk stealth.
Okay, I missed the dodge, but you still haven't address the fact that
obedience can only be used on someone elses turn and only against
smaller vampires and not at all against allies.
> > >What about Elysium: the Arboretum and Purchase Pact that are
> > PERMANENT and cost no blood?
> >
> > Both are masters so are self limiting, and can only be used by
> > Camrilla vs Camrilla or Sabbat vs. Sabbat, and each is burnable by an
> > action, so they are NOT PERMANENT.
>
> Surely, they work only against the same sect. Now what? One Elysium
> will grant a Ventrue political deck almost complete protection against
> Brujah rush deck, but you still aren't calling it broken. Come on,
> which combat deck can pass a political referendum against a voting
> deck? If a deck can be shut with a single card, it's still OK, right?
> As long as the winning deck is not S&B, of course :)
Okay so you agree with me. They are totally different and not
comparable to Run Away Like Mad. Your points against it are very
weak. Ventrue being protected from Brujah is false, Ventrue get
protection from Brujah, once per turn then it is dirt nap city. As to
your point of a combat deck passing a political referendum, I see
Brujah-Archon decks pass referendums in the face of standing table
votes (Ventrue included) all the time. Its called Bewitching Oration
and various other vote push. So the deck isn't shut down.
I don't have a problem with S&B winning, I just have a problem with me
not winning. ;)
> > What about Earth Meld that provide S:CE
> > and untap for free?
> >
> > Gangrel/!Gangrel discipline which is versatile yet doesn't generate
> > bleed and these two clans have limited access to enhanced bleed (i.e.
> > they suck in tournament evironment, sorry Legbiter).
>
> You are completely wrong here, but Curevei already answered you. Tier
> of Souls and Army of Rats are permanent bleed-enhancers, as are
> retainers like Tasha Morgan. Moreover, there are numerous
> Gangrel/!Gangrel with dom/DOM, and Dominate is the BEST bleeding
> discipline in the game. One can use Caitlin, Soldat, Sebastian Goulet
> and even Hartmut Stover in a PRO/dom/obf deck.
Tier of Souls and Army of Rats are not the problem with the Gangrel,
permanent bleed enhancers are availible to every clan so you haven't
made a point here. Pro/Dom is nice but isn't nearly as good as
Obf/Dom or Obf/Dem. The tournament winning deck archive backs me up
on this one.
Number of Tournament Winning Decks:
Gangrel: 26
!Gangrel: 8
Malkavian: 35
!Malkavian:26
Gangrel and !Gangrel put up 34 wins vs. 71 wins for the Malk/!Malks.
That is a signifigant difference.
> > > All these cards are FAR MORE EFFECTIVE than Run
> > Away Like a Mad.
> >
> > (In an effort to not cause an international scandal this section was
> > deleted)
> >
> > That is just simply not true for all the reasons I have listed.
>
> OK, I'm also trying to be patient... Just read the card text prior to
> calling it broken :)
I am trying to be an Escaped Mental Patient...if I thought this card
still wasn't broken.
> >
> > > Cailean
> > >and Sniper Rifle should be banned, since they provide this ability
> > >CONSTANTLY and FOR FREE, and there is Shadow Step...
> >
> > Let's compare these on a case by case basis.
> >
> > 1) Cailean- 10 cap vampire so NOT FREE, takes 3 turns to influence
> > out, unique, only vampire in the game with that ability, versus Run
> > Away Like Mad and the faceless horde of demenation weenies. 0-1 You
> > lose.
>
> Cailean - you can build a deck on him that would completely shut all
> close-ranged combat decks, since his ability is permanent and free.
> Faceless horde of dementation weenies with Run Away Like a Mad that
> cost 1 blood? What about a horde of Presence weenies with Majesties?
> Majesty is much better for a weenie deck, since it untaps a vampire at
> superior. And you cannot find non-internal 3-cap and 4-cap vamps with
> superior Dementation while there are Gideon Fountaine, Violette
> Prentiss and Mariana Gilbert with PRE. Now what?
> Score: 0-0. Your arguments weren't strong enough.
Again, He costs 10, bleed for 1, and yes, he shuts down close range
combat. He costs 10!!! I should hope that would be worth it.
Wow! My point exactly! Faceless weenie hordes are bad for the game.
We have faceless presence weenie horde lets not add faceless
dementation weenie horde. Oops too late! We already have it.
Faceless Dementation weenie horde is already here. Hmm, Eddie Gaines,
1 cap, turn 2 plays Dive into Madness to get superior DEM, plays
Kindred Spirit and Eyes of Chaos for a bleed of 4 and gains a pool if
successful, plays Deny to stealth past 4 cap that was influenced out.
Does Presence weenie
> dominate the game?
Yes it does and so does weenie Dem
Stealth is better than Strike Combat Ends any day of the week. Weenie
Dem has it, and Weenie Prescence doesn't.
Weenie Dem can get superior DEM as a action and Weenie presence can't
0-1 you still lose. :)
> > 2) Sniper Rifle- equiment, costs an action which is blockable, costs 2
> > pool so NOT FREE, only usable when you block an action versus Run Away
> > Like Mad which can be used any time. 0-2 You lose.
>
> Sniper Rifle can be equipped by ANY vampire with Concealed Weapon.
> Moreover, not every deck can block +1 stealth action. Paying 2 pool
> once is much better than paying 1 blood repeatedly (say, 10 times for
> a long game). Sniper Rifle provides long range plus 2R damage without
> any additional cards and without blood loss, while Run Away Like a Mad
> allows only dodges.
Yes, it can be Concealed onto a Minion, but can't be used in that
combat since if you conceal it out you didn't have it when you
blocked. Also unless you can maneuver to long in the combat that you
concealed it out then you cannot use it because it is only usable at
long range.
Whether 2 pool once is better than 1 blood repeatedly is just not
right. I'll pay one blood all day long rather than 2 pool, see
infernal arguemnents if you want to see how that works.
0-2 nice try
> > 3) Shadow Step- Requires Superior Obtenebration, rarer than hen's
> > teeth at a denture convention (note, this will soon be changed), must
> > burn 2 blood, NOT FREE, doesn't provide anything else versus Run Away
> > Like Mad which sets range gives you a maneuver and a press at superior
> > and turns into a pizza, a six pack and a supermodel when no one else
> > is around. 0-3 You lose
>
> Shadow Step: Did we talk about rareness? The card exists, and it's
> going to be reprinted. NOT FREE? Looks like Run Away Like a Mad is
> free! Doesn't give you extra maneuver and press? But you can play
> Shadow Step + Ahriman's Demesne to BURN a vampire (even Cailean!),
> while Run Away only allows dodging...
Again, you are not address in the points. The point about it being
rare is moot. It exists but not in sufficient quanities to draw a
sample from. It is not FREE to set range, so you were wrong when you
said it was free.
FYI, Shadow Step and Ahriman's Demense cost 4 and is only playable 2nd
round after you have press to get to it (minimum 3 card combo) which
is no where near as good as Coma played for 3 first round (1 card
combo).
Score 0-3 I win. Fatality. :)
> > You should be satisfied with success. !Malks presence skews the game
> > to combat. You should take it as a compliment.
>
> Looks like you totally missed the point of my newsletter. I can be
> proud that ant-Malks can assemble a good stealth-bleed deck (or even a
> best S&B deck), but it would be great if they could play something
> else as well. Run Away Like a Mad plus dodges would enable at least
> casual intercept and protection for voting and Sibyl's Tongue decks.
I got the point of the newsletter. It was a good one. You should be
proud that your banner clan is one of the most successful in the
history of the game. My point is that Run Away Like Mad would make
them so good against the one strategy that is the Rock to their
Scissors, that they would be too good and therefore it is a broken
card.
They are potent as I say. They are the most successful archtype in
the history of VTES. As to banning cards, talk to Scott, but my
thought are that we should make other strategies more powerful while
keeping S&B rather static.
<snip Kevin's very eloquent discourse of WHY POWERBLEED IS LIKE CRACK
COCAINE>
> In case you didn't know, bleed isn't exclusive Malkavian trait, not
> even stealth-bleed. Lasombra can bleed at stealth while still having
> two good combat disciplines. It's quite possible to build DOM/OBF
> decks, too. Thus, your position "stealth-bleed is dangerous, so it
> should be easily pummeled" looks like very strange.
That is exactly what i am saying. Stealth-Bleed is the most powerful
archtype in the game and has more tournament wins to its credit than
any other. It should be vulnerable to combat which is the "Control"
archtype. Making it immune to combat is BAD FOR THE GAME (TM). So if
that looks strange to you then you are writing the newsletter for the
appropriate clan, the clan of the insane. :)
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, JR
Ector
> >
> > > Where is Zip gun?
> > I tried this, and I'm not a big fan of it. If opponent out-maneuver
> > me, he knows that I'm going to shoot with Zip Gun, thus I cannot
> > dodge, so he can launch any strike - Burning Wrath and so on.
>
> Malkavians that dodge waste perfectly good deckspace, imo. If you're
> outmaneuvered, you're usually screwed anyway against any decent combat
> deck.
Some combat decks function at any distance. And Dodge can save your
butt in many situations.
> > > Hungry coyote is a good way to survive combat decks as well. (rescue
> > > costs 2 actions and net 0 blood) Hunting is a good way to survive.
> > > The Coven is in the same category.
> >
> > Torporized vampires cannot hunt. Vampires that resque other vampires
> > from torpor cannot hunt as well. And there are vamps that can rush
> > every turn without any cards, like Beast or Theo Bell.
>
> Hungry coyote gives your guys more staying power. Beast or Theo Bell
> will still have a good time around you, Your game just won't be ended
> when they show up.
OK, imagine my vamp has 1 blood. If Beast rushes him, he will be
torporized. If my vampire hunt (+2 blood), Beast won't torporize him
without extra cards... but it's likely that his controller has some
combat cards :(
> > > > Name: Run Away Like a Mad
> > > > Cardtype: Combat
> > > > Cost: 1 blood
> > > > Discipline: Dementation
> > > > Only usable before range is determined.
> > > > [dem] Set the range for this round of combat to long. Skip the
> > > > Determine Range step on this round. This minion gets an optional
> > > > maneuver to long range on the next round of combat and can perform
> > > > only dodge strikes during this combat.
> > > > [DEM] As above, with an optional press, only usable to end combat.
>
> > > How would a virtual combat ends, that indeed is too powerful (just
> > > compare it to majesty or earth meld, which are either easily beaten by
> > > immortal grapple, or belong to a clan which has limited access to
> > > serious bleeding power(dom/pro works, but isn't quite as readily
> > > available as dem/obf) enable Voting decks/Sybil's Tongue decks? Seems
> > > to me like a good way to make !Malk even better S&B, which really
> > > isn't neccessary.
> >
> > Hey, are you playing Immortal Grapple most of the time? :)
>
> Actually, I hardly play IG.
Then I really can't understand why you consider Run Away overpowered
(a virtual combat ends)? Any long-range combat deck would laugh at the
card. I only think that this card would raise chances of non-IG combat
strategies.
>
> > How can you consider this card too powerful? What about Alpha Glint
> > that CANNOT be beaten by Immortal Grapple? What about Deer Rifle, that
> > nearly always guarantee long distance? This card forces you to pay 1
> > blood just for long distance, and you cannot shoot from there! Cailean
> > chooses distance for free, and can shoot...
>
> Alpha Glint doesn't go with obf+dom/pre/dem. If you think deer rifle
> is comparable to this card, play it instead. Cailean is a single
> vampire, a 10cap, and not really that great unless you build a deck
> around him.
Deer Rifle is better only in beating Immortal Grapple. I tried to make
a card that would allow escaping from combat, being worse than S:CE
against long-range decks and better than S:CE against Grapples.
Frankly, I don't see any "brokenness" in Run Away Like a Mad, except
for the fear of making stealth & bleed decks stronger.
> > "Serious bleeding power" really sounds strange. Dominate and Presence
> > offer the same bleeding power or even stronger, but Dominate has
> > Obediences, and Presence has Combat Ends. Does it frighten you? One
> > can easily assemble dom/obf deck from first-group Malks and others
> > that would bleed stronger and get protection from Obedience.
>
> Fatcap bleed deck? Isnt this why you agitated against that
> dem-obedience-lookalike? Presence and obfuscate aren't readily
> available in conjunction with bounce-ability. Dominate and obfuscate
> is only partially broken for the same reason Dem/Obf is, mainly that
> the minions who have the filthy synergy, are, with exception of the
> very highcaps, who either didn't act, or are swamped in wakes,
> killable.
Sorry, cannot fully understand your point of view here. You mean that
Dom/Obf vampires tend to have large capacity, so they aren's as
dangerous? Well, if you are looking for superior Dominate, you may be
right, but even dom/OBF vampire can bleed for 3 with Govern the
Unaligned or Conditioning. And you can find 5-capacity dom/OBF
vampires, like Count Ormonde or Zebulon. Most Malkavian bleeders are
5-7 capacity as well, since basic Dementation allows bleeding only for
two.
> And yes, Obf/Dem or Obf/Dom sitting upstream from me does frighten me,
> as it rightly should. I find consolation in that there's something to
> do about it.
>
> > How would Run Away enable voting/Sibyl's Tongue decks? Well, it would
> > simply allow their vampires to live a bit longer.
>
> Which would also make !malk S&B absolutely broken, which is something
> to avoid.
Let's look at this from designer's perspective. If there is a deck
archetype that is too powerful, some cards should be banned, or the
new cards should be made against it (like disciplineless bounce), but
it would be strange to make another deck archetype "fix" the "broken"
archetype. Would you like a metagame where voting decks defeat rush
decks, rush decks defeat bleed decks, and bleed decks defeat voting
decks like rock-paper-scissors?
> > > <snip>
> > > > Name: Madman's Fury
> > > > Cardtype: Combat
> > > > Cost: 2 blood
> > > > Discipline: Dementation
> > > > [dem] Strike: strength+1 aggravated damage. If this strike
> > > > successfully resolves, send this minion into torpor after the
> > > > resolution.
> > > > [DEM] As above, with an optional maneuver to close range.
>
> > > Potence, protean, viccisitude, and thaumaturgy decks usually don't
> > > combine them with obf, and they aren't the best or maybe second best
> > > bleeding discipline in the game either. Have you been troubled by
> > > immortal grapple decks lately?
> >
> > OK, Stealth-Bleed is the common enemy, so let's punish it a lot!
> > Don't you see that Madman's Fury is pure defensive card? Surely, if
> > you think that any S&B deck should be punished, it would be hard to
> > establish mutual understanding...
>
> I don't think S&B should be punished. I think it shouldn't be improved
> on too much. Coma is fine for defense, if you're playing them.
Coma is much worse than Madman's Fury. But at least you aren't calling
this card overpowered... With Madman's Fury, Escaped Mental Patients,
Ivory Bows and Rotschrecks, one can build dangeous enough combat
module.
> > No, I wasn't troubled by IG decks, since there are just a few Grapples
> > in Minsk. But any combat deck (Toreador Blurred Magnums, Tremere
> > Apportation/Theft and so on) easily destroys Malkavians :(
>
> When they come in combat, which you therefore should avoid. Any
> malkavian deck easily destroys most decks when they don't come in
> combat. Trying to counteract this will only make them too strong.
Again, you aren't looking from the designer's perspective. Neighter
deck can completely avoid combat in this game, and that's right!
Combat is the primary source of players' interaction. If stealth-bleed
is too powerful, then designer should create new cards against it
(BTW, did you see Channel 10?). If the rush decks oust too slowly,
they get Dragonbound, and so on. Other deck types will get their tools
against S&B, and S&B should get its tools against combat decks.
Yours,
Ector
Ector
> On 8 Nov 2004 01:17:53 -0800, Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) scrawled:
> >Surely, you can play the second Obedience if you have it :) But it's
> >unlikely with only 8 Obediences in the deck and against rush predator
> >or prey. That's all I wanted so say.
> >Moreover, even if you have two Obediences, your opponent may have
> >three minions :( And even if he doesn't, inferior Obedience untaps his
> >vampire, so he can play Bum's Rush...
>
> erm, so replacing the 8 obediance with 8 's:ce' for !malks would, erm,
> be better at fixing that sort of thing? i don't see exactly where
> you're trying to go with this. sure, if you run out of combat defense
> before the combat deck runs out of combat/rush, you're boned. but
> that's not dependant on it being Obediance or whatever. it's just how
> this game works....
If I could use my 's:ce' card instead of Obedience, I could play more
copies, since all my vampires could use it, regardless of their
capacity. Korah and Marie Faucigny could play it to defend against
Beast and Theo Bell, thus enabling voting deck, and so on.
Ector
Matthew T. Morgan
> If I could use my 's:ce' card instead of Obedience, I could play more
> copies, since all my vampires could use it, regardless of their
> capacity. Korah and Marie Faucigny could play it to defend against
> Beast and Theo Bell, thus enabling voting deck, and so on.
Gemini's Mirror and a few Swallowed by the Night should keep you healthy
long enough to have a game at least. I don't see how the existence of
Theo and Beast prevent you from playing a !Malk vote deck. That's like
saying you can't play a Ventrue Law Firm deck because Carna exists.
My playgroup is pretty fighty and I think we've all experimented with
different kinds of combat defense when we go for vote or bleed decks. The
fact of the matter is that if somebody is going to rush you all day,
you're going to go down no matter how many defense cards you run. Often
we'll just not bother devoting space to anti-combat. Instead we rely on
cunning, lying and whining. Two popular strategies:
Pretend to be sufficiently cowed when a rush deck is your prey. Sit and
do nothing until you have the perfect hand and can kill your prey in one
turn. Rescue your grandprey to keep her in the game.
Scream blood murder when your predator rushes you. Get table to rescue.
Get table to throw vote damage on the predator. Don't die. Eventually
the rush deck will have to go upstream to stay alive. Then you kill your
unsuspecting prey.
Works sometimes. Fails to work sometimes. Just like everything else in
this game, I think.
Matt Morgan
Janne Hägglund
> Frankly, I don't see any "brokenness" in Run Away Like a Mad, except
> for the fear of making stealth & bleed decks stronger.
I'd say that's reason enough.
"Frankly, I think Muhammed Ali is not strong enough. We need to attach
spikes to his boxing gloves and allow him to wear armor."
--
hg@ "If you can't offend part of your audience,
iki.fi there is no point in being an artist at all." -Hakim Bey
Darky
> of Souls and Army of Rats are permanent bleed-enhancers, as are
> retainers like Tasha Morgan. Moreover, there are numerous
> Gangrel/!Gangrel with dom/DOM, and Dominate is the BEST bleeding
> discipline in the game. One can use Caitlin, Soldat, Sebastian Goulet
> and even Hartmut Stover in a PRO/dom/obf deck.
You can also play Rachel for your fabulous PRO DEM OBF deck. This will
give you access to this fantabulous S:CE without fabricating cards! ;)
You're saying on the one hand that you want something for regular
(!)malks without disciplines tacked on to survive combat, and on the
other hand you're saying DOM/PRO decks are both good bleeders and have
access to earthmeld.
Giving this card to dementation is like giving a +1/+2 bleed modifier
to protean. Not balanced with what the discipline already does.
-Bram Vink
Darky
>
> > >
> > > > Where is Zip gun?
> > > I tried this, and I'm not a big fan of it. If opponent out-maneuver
> > > me, he knows that I'm going to shoot with Zip Gun, thus I cannot
> > > dodge, so he can launch any strike - Burning Wrath and so on.
> >
> > Malkavians that dodge waste perfectly good deckspace, imo. If you're
> > outmaneuvered, you're usually screwed anyway against any decent combat
> > deck.
>
> Some combat decks function at any distance. And Dodge can save your
> butt in many situations.
Maneuvers double as stealth. Dodges, at best, double as maneuvers.
Dodges can save your butt, but every dodge you put in could be spent
better.
> > > > Hungry coyote is a good way to survive combat decks as well. (rescue
> > > > costs 2 actions and net 0 blood) Hunting is a good way to survive.
> > > > The Coven is in the same category.
> > >
> > > Torporized vampires cannot hunt. Vampires that resque other vampires
> > > from torpor cannot hunt as well. And there are vamps that can rush
> > > every turn without any cards, like Beast or Theo Bell.
> >
> > Hungry coyote gives your guys more staying power. Beast or Theo Bell
> > will still have a good time around you, Your game just won't be ended
> > when they show up.
>
> OK, imagine my vamp has 1 blood. If Beast rushes him, he will be
> torporized. If my vampire hunt (+2 blood), Beast won't torporize him
> without extra cards... but it's likely that his controller has some
> combat cards :(
When beast does torporize him, rescuing, then hunting, will cost you
less.
> > > > > Name: Run Away Like a Mad
> > > > > Cardtype: Combat
> > > > > Cost: 1 blood
> > > > > Discipline: Dementation
> > > > > Only usable before range is determined.
> > > > > [dem] Set the range for this round of combat to long. Skip the
> > > > > Determine Range step on this round. This minion gets an optional
> > > > > maneuver to long range on the next round of combat and can perform
> > > > > only dodge strikes during this combat.
> > > > > [DEM] As above, with an optional press, only usable to end combat.
>
> > > > How would a virtual combat ends, that indeed is too powerful (just
> > > > compare it to majesty or earth meld, which are either easily beaten by
> > > > immortal grapple, or belong to a clan which has limited access to
> > > > serious bleeding power(dom/pro works, but isn't quite as readily
> > > > available as dem/obf) enable Voting decks/Sybil's Tongue decks? Seems
> > > > to me like a good way to make !Malk even better S&B, which really
> > > > isn't neccessary.
> > >
> > > Hey, are you playing Immortal Grapple most of the time? :)
> >
> > Actually, I hardly play IG.
>
> Then I really can't understand why you consider Run Away overpowered
> (a virtual combat ends)? Any long-range combat deck would laugh at the
> card. I only think that this card would raise chances of non-IG combat
> strategies.
I kinda like close range combat without IG.
> >
> > > How can you consider this card too powerful? What about Alpha Glint
> > > that CANNOT be beaten by Immortal Grapple? What about Deer Rifle, that
> > > nearly always guarantee long distance? This card forces you to pay 1
> > > blood just for long distance, and you cannot shoot from there! Cailean
> > > chooses distance for free, and can shoot...
> >
> > Alpha Glint doesn't go with obf+dom/pre/dem. If you think deer rifle
> > is comparable to this card, play it instead. Cailean is a single
> > vampire, a 10cap, and not really that great unless you build a deck
> > around him.
>
> Deer Rifle is better only in beating Immortal Grapple. I tried to make
> a card that would allow escaping from combat, being worse than S:CE
> against long-range decks and better than S:CE against Grapples.
> Frankly, I don't see any "brokenness" in Run Away Like a Mad, except
> for the fear of making stealth & bleed decks stronger.
It's broken because it's a dem card.
> > > "Serious bleeding power" really sounds strange. Dominate and Presence
> > > offer the same bleeding power or even stronger, but Dominate has
> > > Obediences, and Presence has Combat Ends. Does it frighten you? One
> > > can easily assemble dom/obf deck from first-group Malks and others
> > > that would bleed stronger and get protection from Obedience.
> >
> > Fatcap bleed deck? Isnt this why you agitated against that
> > dem-obedience-lookalike? Presence and obfuscate aren't readily
> > available in conjunction with bounce-ability. Dominate and obfuscate
> > is only partially broken for the same reason Dem/Obf is, mainly that
> > the minions who have the filthy synergy, are, with exception of the
> > very highcaps, who either didn't act, or are swamped in wakes,
> > killable.
>
> Sorry, cannot fully understand your point of view here. You mean that
> Dom/Obf vampires tend to have large capacity, so they aren's as
> dangerous? Well, if you are looking for superior Dominate, you may be
> right, but even dom/OBF vampire can bleed for 3 with Govern the
> Unaligned or Conditioning. And you can find 5-capacity dom/OBF
> vampires, like Count Ormonde or Zebulon. Most Malkavian bleeders are
> 5-7 capacity as well, since basic Dementation allows bleeding only for
> two.
I'm saying combat-defense based on obedience needs large capacity.
5caps with defense based on obedience is wasting space.
> > And yes, Obf/Dem or Obf/Dom sitting upstream from me does frighten me,
> > as it rightly should. I find consolation in that there's something to
> > do about it.
> >
> > > How would Run Away enable voting/Sibyl's Tongue decks? Well, it would
> > > simply allow their vampires to live a bit longer.
> >
> > Which would also make !malk S&B absolutely broken, which is something
> > to avoid.
>
> Let's look at this from designer's perspective. If there is a deck
> archetype that is too powerful, some cards should be banned, or the
> new cards should be made against it (like disciplineless bounce), but
> it would be strange to make another deck archetype "fix" the "broken"
> archetype. Would you like a metagame where voting decks defeat rush
> decks, rush decks defeat bleed decks, and bleed decks defeat voting
> decks like rock-paper-scissors?
Let's look at this from designer's perspective. Some archetypes are
already powerful. New cards to enhance that strategy should not
dramatically increase that archetype's power, but instead add variety,
or something.
> > > > <snip>
> > > > > Name: Madman's Fury
> > > > > Cardtype: Combat
> > > > > Cost: 2 blood
> > > > > Discipline: Dementation
> > > > > [dem] Strike: strength+1 aggravated damage. If this strike
> > > > > successfully resolves, send this minion into torpor after the
> > > > > resolution.
> > > > > [DEM] As above, with an optional maneuver to close range.
>
> > > > Potence, protean, viccisitude, and thaumaturgy decks usually don't
> > > > combine them with obf, and they aren't the best or maybe second best
> > > > bleeding discipline in the game either. Have you been troubled by
> > > > immortal grapple decks lately?
> > >
> > > OK, Stealth-Bleed is the common enemy, so let's punish it a lot!
> > > Don't you see that Madman's Fury is pure defensive card? Surely, if
> > > you think that any S&B deck should be punished, it would be hard to
> > > establish mutual understanding...
> >
> > I don't think S&B should be punished. I think it shouldn't be improved
> > on too much. Coma is fine for defense, if you're playing them.
>
> Coma is much worse than Madman's Fury. But at least you aren't calling
> this card overpowered... With Madman's Fury, Escaped Mental Patients,
> Ivory Bows and Rotschrecks, one can build dangeous enough combat
> module.
Coma's good enough for a bleed discipline. It doesn't need this card.
> > > No, I wasn't troubled by IG decks, since there are just a few Grapples
> > > in Minsk. But any combat deck (Toreador Blurred Magnums, Tremere
> > > Apportation/Theft and so on) easily destroys Malkavians :(
> >
> > When they come in combat, which you therefore should avoid. Any
> > malkavian deck easily destroys most decks when they don't come in
> > combat. Trying to counteract this will only make them too strong.
>
> Again, you aren't looking from the designer's perspective. Neighter
> deck can completely avoid combat in this game, and that's right!
> Combat is the primary source of players' interaction. If stealth-bleed
> is too powerful, then designer should create new cards against it
> (BTW, did you see Channel 10?). If the rush decks oust too slowly,
> they get Dragonbound, and so on. Other deck types will get their tools
> against S&B, and S&B should get its tools against combat decks.
If S&B is still one of the strongest archetypes, it shouldn't get
radical improvements. Your card is just too strong for dem to have.
"Look at it from a designer's perspective".
> Yours,
> Ector
-Bram Vink
James Coupe
In many environments, casual protection is enough. Obviously, your
metagame may vary heavily!
If a heavy, heavy combat deck comes for you, you should die. If that's
what their deck is devoted to, the best you should be able to hope for
is stalling them. (Obviously, they *could* have a really bad shuffle.
Or build a really bad deck. But I'm talking a half-decent combat deck
here.) Just like they probably won't be able to deal with a consistent
attack of bleed, or vote, or whatever your deck is doing.
Going too far beyond "casual protection" starts meaning you're trying to
take on heavy combat - and gives you a hand full of crap if you don't
see one. :/
If you want to go on the offensive, I think your Camarilla brethren
would probably be a better place to start with an OOT/Madness
Network/Rotschreck deck.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though!
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.
Aramis
I think they've all pretty much been covered already, so I'll just
trumpet my favorite solution:
Gemini's Mirror
Combat - 1 blood
[obf]Strike: dodge with an optional maneuver
[OBF]Only usable before range is determined. When resolving each
strike against this vampire, flip a coin. If it's tails, the strike
has no effect on this vampire. This lasts until heads is flipped or
combat ends. A vampire can play only one Gemini's Mirror at superior
each combat.
If IG -> use at inferior to run away, or use at superior for 50%
chance at life if they can out maneuver you.
If guns -> dodge and suck up the additionals or play at superior and
hope you get lucky.
If long-range strike -> use at inferior to deny range-specific
strikes, or just dodge and laugh.
Of all of these, guns is probably the worst problem and that can be
proactively addressed by blocking the equip actions with AUS.
In the end, I think GM is sufficient combat defense because it
combines the best two options (maneuver and dodge) while also
including a 50% get out of jail free power. It's not perfect, nor is
it always reliable, but it should keep your guys alive long enough to
bleed out your prey.
Aramis
Peter D Bakija
> In many environments, casual protection is enough. Obviously, your
> metagame may vary heavily!
Presicely. I've only been following this discussion lightly, but Jame's
comment has hit the nail on the head very nicely. The Malkvians are
*incredibly* powerful in and of themselves. Their main weakness is Rush
combat (and bounce). Giving them *more* viable rush combat defense than they
already have is just going to make them even more powerful, which they don't
need to be. As it stands, without compromising S+B integrity, you can
include multiple:
-Swallowed by the Night
-Deny
In a Malkavian deck. Both of these are cycleable easily, and both are
useful. Heck, in a Malk deck with reliable access to DEM/OBF, having 10 each
of these is in no way unreasonable (although getting 10 Deny might be
tough).
If you want to thin your offense out a bit, a handfull of:
-Behind You
-Gemini's Mirror
Will foil a great deal of combat, and as James points out, often casual
protection is all you need.
If you are *really* concerened, you can add either Zip Guns or Disguised
Weapon/Magnum.
Heck, then mix in a handfull of Coma, and the Malkavians are on fire, combat
defense wise.
Heck, if you take a standard Malkavian Dem/Obf deck, and build it with:
-8x Swallowed by the Night
-8x Deny
-6x Behind You
-6x Gemini's Mirror
-4x Zip Gun
You are likely going to survive all but the most determined close range IG
Rush and likely slow down a Lid/Thrown Junk deck enough that you could
likely kill them before they kill you, and you'll do so without any loss of
offense ability and without any significant cycling problems. The Deny and
Swallowed cycle as stealth as needed. The Zip Guns, Behind You, and Gemini's
flow easily if you get blocked or attacked.
Peter D Bakija
pd...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6
"How does this end?"
"In fire."
Emperor Turhan and Kosh
Ector
> The Malkvians are
> *incredibly* powerful in and of themselves. Their main weakness is Rush
> combat (and bounce). Giving them *more* viable rush combat defense than they
> already have is just going to make them even more powerful, which they don't
> need to be.
Holy cow! Did I say that Malkavians cannot do anything? S&B is a good
deck, and it's very powerful indeed. And it really CAN use these
Swalloweds, Deny and Gemini's Mirrors. Thanks a lot for a good defense
package... I'll try it when I find the needed cards.
But what if I'm tired of S&B and want to play something else? !Malks
have brilliant Sibyl's Tongue card, but they cannot use it effectively
since it requires time, and they are likely to be beaten meanwhile.
!Malks have some brilliant vamps for a voting deck (Korah, Marie
Faucigny, General Perfidio Dios), but the deck is likely to fail for
the same reason. Both decks cannot run 30 card just for "casual combat
protection".
Don't you think that a single clan strategy makes the game weak and
dull? To my mind, making the whole clan extremely weak in combat hurts
the game. If you think that combat protection would make S&B too
strong, then other clans should get some cards against it (someone
mentioned disciplineless bounce, for instance), but making the game
like "rock-paper-scissors", when one deck archetype easily beats
another (and calling this a balance!), IMHO, isn't good enough.
Yours,
Ector
Ector
> On 8 Nov 2004, Ector wrote:
>
> > If I could use my 's:ce' card instead of Obedience, I could play more
> > copies, since all my vampires could use it, regardless of their
> > capacity. Korah and Marie Faucigny could play it to defend against
> > Beast and Theo Bell, thus enabling voting deck, and so on.
>
> Gemini's Mirror and a few Swallowed by the Night should keep you healthy
> long enough to have a game at least. I don't see how the existence of
> Theo and Beast prevent you from playing a !Malk vote deck. That's like
> saying you can't play a Ventrue Law Firm deck because Carna exists.
This situation is completely different. You can use Kiss of Ra or
Seduction to get past Carna, and you generally HAVE TIME to find these
cards. You can use Ivory Bow to make Carna cover in fear. Carna just
hurts you, but not destroys you. Beast and Theo Bell kill my vampires,
and I currently cannot defend with a reasonable number of card slots.
> My playgroup is pretty fighty and I think we've all experimented with
> different kinds of combat defense when we go for vote or bleed decks. The
> fact of the matter is that if somebody is going to rush you all day,
> you're going to go down no matter how many defense cards you run. Often
> we'll just not bother devoting space to anti-combat. Instead we rely on
> cunning, lying and whining. Two popular strategies:
>
> Pretend to be sufficiently cowed when a rush deck is your prey. Sit and
> do nothing until you have the perfect hand and can kill your prey in one
> turn. Rescue your grandprey to keep her in the game.
>
> Scream blood murder when your predator rushes you. Get table to rescue.
> Get table to throw vote damage on the predator. Don't die. Eventually
> the rush deck will have to go upstream to stay alive. Then you kill your
> unsuspecting prey.
>
> Works sometimes. Fails to work sometimes. Just like everything else in
> this game, I think.
Thanks a lot for the good lesson :) Unfortunately, I'm not very good
at cunning, lying and whining... Frankly, i'm VERY BAD in this. Most
our players already know that even with a single vampire S&B still can
oust his prey, so they can believe my whinings only when all my
vampires are torporized.
And I really appreciate "The fact of the matter is that if somebody is
going to rush you all day, you're going to go down no matter how many
defense cards you run" sentence. That's right... but, thanks God, only
few vampires can rush you all the day... and good protection cards at
least would make some players think prior to wasting their Bum's
Rushes.
Yours,
Ector
Ector
> Potence has access to Immoral Grapple. CEL decks with guns usually pack
> Psyche!-s. I'm not sure how any non-combat clan that does not have
> fortitude would fare better than the good ole' madmen.
Well, I have a Toreador Antitribu voting/bleeding deck with 12
Majesties, which grant decent protection. Please try to understand my
point: it's clear that casual 15-card defense package won't grant
complete protection against 50-card combat stack, but at least there
are some chances. Not every deck has Grapple or Psyche!, especially en
masse. And Majesty usually nullifies several opponent's cards: Bum's
Rush, Flash and Thrown Sewer Lid, for instance.
> At least you can use Swallowed and Coma to make a CEL guns deck think. Or, if > the POT guy can't kill you on round one, you might as well Deny him the > opportunity to correct that mistake on round two.
>
> Or just pack 10× Swallowed and 10× Deny and then you can Run like a Madman.
No, I cannot, since I need two cards (and sometimes even several
Swalloweds) to replace a single Run Away. This would make the deck
pointless, and in most situations I would be beaten with a hand full
of Deny when I need Swallowed or vice versa.
> > Swallowed doesn't save from
> > Thefts of Vitae or Magnums, and some Brujah can Throw Sewer Lids.
>
> Yeah, true. And some decks use ANI POT FOR, and play Drawing out the Beast,
> Torn Signpost, Immoral Grapple, Pushing the Limit, Skin of Steel, Disarm,
> Decapitate, Taste of Vitae in this particular sequence. Some decks pack War
> Ghouls that do 4 damage and even prevent 1 each round. There are Renegade
> Garou, who regenerate. So what? No deck can withstand everything. What it
> can withstand, though, is a reasonable offence mounted by a reasonable
> deck.
Look, I use these cards (though not 10 Swalloweds, of course), and
even one Brujah starter pounds me easily. As I said before, good
combat decks should beat casual protection. But !Malks are easily
beaten even by "light" combat modules (say, 30 card-module).
> > When
> > both your predator and your prey are rush decks, and they both pound
> > you, such cards are too weak.
>
> Sometimes they are enough. I was seated once between a Shambling hordes
> predator and a Basilia multirush prey. The very cards I mentioned earlier
> allowed me to kill my prey without my vampires getting beat up. Try it.
Congratulations, you got lucky. Once I played my S&B with two Coma,
and used early Coma in two rounds to torporize Beast and Theo Bell. I
also got lucky, and nothing else. Please don't advice me adding more
Coma, since I usually forced to dicard it just because my vamps cannot
play it.
> >> If the Beast is your predator, you simply stop influencing out vampires
> >> until the player is ousted. If it is your prey, you proceed to burn it
> >> along the other posessions of his controller (ousting him).
> >
> > What if the player oust me first?
>
> Then something is wrong. You have a predator who cannot basically use his
> cards against you (no minions - no damage possible through combat cards).
> So he will probably bleed you for one at a time, but most likely, he will
> get into a mutual bash-fest with his predator.
>
> Your prey - without a predator - will be strong, and probably enter a
> similar bash-fest with his prey. In the end you'll probably end up not
> being bothered too much.
>
> I sometimes use this tactic against offensive combat predators. They get
> ousted extremely quick if they can't bash me up, and then I'm back with
> a vengeance. ;)
Look, we are just starting to play VteS, and there are plenty of guys
who play "just for fun". My grandpredator won't bash my predator if my
predator is stronger - there would be obviously no fun in that. I know
that it sounds silly,but people really behave this way.
> > Look, I don't want playing S&B anymore, since I'm tired to be a
> > "common enemy", and I'm forced to switch to another clan, since !Malks
> > cannot do nothing except for bleeding at stealth.
>
> Inherently flawed assumption. Please reconsider. Forsightful deck design
> and clever play can hand you almost any table. Use the ancient teachings
> of the VTES grandmasters like Sun Tzu to achieve the desired victory.
I completely understand you, but you never played with such players.
Sometimes my grandpredator rushes me just to slow my play and "for
fun"... you know, most people enjoy bashing somebody who cannot strike
back. It's also impossible to make any alliances with S&B, since
anyone fears the deck... Maybe, I'll return to the archetype in the
future.
Ector
Ector
> Ector wrote:
>
> > Actually, I rarely get caught, as there are just few intercept deck
> > here. But I'm constantly being rushed, and sometimes I'm forced to
> > block myself. If my Patient keeps opponents from attacking for at
> > least two turns, I think he worth his 2 pool. Embrace or Creation
> > Rites would serve the same purpose - protect main bleeders from
> > attacks.
>
> So let me get this straight.... your environment is you playing stealth
> bleed, and lots of other people playing rush? And how often would you
> say you win games? And if that percentage is where I think it is,
> what's the problem?
How often do I win games? Almost never, since the whole table is
against me from the very beginning. "First kill Malks, then play for
fun" is their motto. Fortunately, there are some normal players,
too... and they usually lead the anti-Malkavian rage and then win the
game :)
> > But I already sick and tired with S&B, and I'd like to play something
> > else (i.e. Sibyl's Tongue combo-deck). Unfortunately, these decks
> > aren't real since they require too many slots for defence.
>
> Oh, this is the problem. Look, chucking together a stealth bleed deck
> tends to be the one of the first things new players do. It's obvious,
> it's simple, and it works. I think what you are experiencing is growing
> pains, as you look for other strategies and then begin banging your head
> against the wall, trying to make them anywhere near as good as
> stealth-bleed. Over the long haul, they won't be. Stealth bleed is the
> best strategy, and bore-me-to-tears Kindred Spirits bleed is *the best
> deck in the game*. Yes, our beloved game has a best deck, even though
> we'd like to think it shouldn't, and it's your clan's signature deck.
> Perhaps you should factor that in, that you are using something five
> times better than it has a right to be as your benchmark.
If Kindred Spirits S&B is the best deck indeed, then Kindred Spirits
should be banned. Look, I'm not a child (BTW, I'm 33), and I really
think that the game can be balanced without the "rock-paper-scissors"
principle (I mean, Rush beats S&B, S&B beats anything else, and
anything else beats Rush) Still, I appreciate your attitude :)
Ector
James Coupe
A Malk/!Malk deck has options with Derange and Protect Thine Own. Quite
scary, if hard to pull off.
There are sufficient Princes/other titles lurking around, and a few
vampires with Obf/Pre (Kite, Quentin, Evan) that a (!)Malkavian deck can
have a good run at a stealth/vote deck, with a little bleed to fall back
on. Stealth can always be thrown on vanilla bleed actions, if you have
trouble. Combine with Derange to take out the opposing titles (this is
why the clan cross-over works well) if you're feeling vindictive.
Using those some vampires, you can also go for swarm
bleed/Embrace/Progeny/Creation Rites/Psychic Veil hunt Tribute bloat.
Pay for anything you please, that way.
If you feel like it, you also have a half decent option for the Fifth
Tradition, or Entrenching. Since you're now (going along these lines)
playing bigger vampires, stop looking at *just* the Malk/!Malk
disciplines. Look at other disciplines they have, and what you can pick
up from there. Big !Malks have a smattering of Protean which could
combine with, say, Greger Andersen. Or a little pot. Perhaps the "tha"
on Quira and Marie makes you think about something possible there.
Cross-over with some appropriate vampires from other clans who have
useful !Malk disciplines (for whatever your deck needs), you have a
workable crypt starting up.
Any vampires with good specials? Or with really good discipline
spreads? Make a deck that focuses around them instead. Use other
!Malks or Malks as cannon fodder around them.
Got any Fortitude? (Artemis and Theron, and some Malks too.) Go for a
multi-action deck around them with Freak Drive - or perhaps your
Thaumaturgy vampires might make Rutor's Hand worth playing in your
view[0]. Derange, Bleed with expensive modifiers, Entrench to
refill[1]. Throw in Change of Target and Spying Mission to avoid being
bounced and ousting your grand-prey.
That's off the top of my head first thing in a morning. But Malks and
!Malks don't need new cards to find things to do that aren't plain,
simple S&B.
[0] Many people have reservations about Rutor's Hand, but you never know
- you might find a good set-up.
[1] This is not the only option, it's just a random set of actions I
thought of.
Ector
> Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote in message news:<d6c82c73.04110...@posting.google.com>...
> > jja....@hccnet.nl (Darky) wrote in message news:<93148a54.04110...@posting.google.com>...
> >
> > butt in many situations.
>
> Maneuvers double as stealth. Dodges, at best, double as maneuvers.
> Dodges can save your butt, but every dodge you put in could be spent
> better.
Surely. That's why better protection cards are needed.
> > > > > Hungry coyote is a good way to survive combat decks as well. (rescue
> > > > > costs 2 actions and net 0 blood) Hunting is a good way to survive.
> > > > > The Coven is in the same category.
<snip>
> When beast does torporize him, rescuing, then hunting, will cost you
> less.
Well, at least my resqued vampire will have 2 bllod to resque his
resquer on the next turn, right?
> > Then I really can't understand why you consider Run Away overpowered
> > (a virtual combat ends)? Any long-range combat deck would laugh at the
> > card. I only think that this card would raise chances of non-IG combat
> > strategies.
>
> I kinda like close range combat without IG.
I see. You should really hate Cailean, Sniper Rifle and Shadow Step
then, as well as all weapons with inbuilt maneuvers. Why not include
some long-range strikes, or weapons instead of spiting on the
relatively weak cards like Run Away? BTW, how do you deal with S:CE
without Grapples?
> > Frankly, I don't see any "brokenness" in Run Away Like a Mad, except
> > for the fear of making stealth & bleed decks stronger.
>
> It's broken because it's a dem card.
Dementation is bad, I see :) BAN Kindred Spirits! BAN Eyes of Chaos!
Looks like I propose these cards too early. With Channel 10,
stealth-bleed decks will be seriously dampened, and, maybe, then
people won't fear them anymore...
> > Well, if you are looking for superior Dominate, you may be
> > right, but even dom/OBF vampire can bleed for 3 with Govern the
> > Unaligned or Conditioning. And you can find 5-capacity dom/OBF
> > vampires, like Count Ormonde or Zebulon. Most Malkavian bleeders are
> > 5-7 capacity as well, since basic Dementation allows bleeding only for
> > two.
>
> I'm saying combat-defense based on obedience needs large capacity.
> 5caps with defense based on obedience is wasting space.
Here's rough sketch of my Dom/Obf voting/bleeding deck (crypt only):
Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 21, Max: 31, Avg: 6,67)
----------------------------------------------
3 Gratiano DOM obf OBT pot 8, Lasombra:2, Priscus
1 Mariel aus DOM OBF tha 7, Malkavian:1
2 Greger Anderssen AUS dom OBF pro 7, Malkavian:2, Prince
2 Gilbert Duane AUS DOM OBF 7, Malkavian:1, Prince
1 Ozmo AUS dom obf 6, Malkavian:1
1 Zebulon aus dom OBF pro 5, Malkavian:1
1 Count Ormonde dom OBF pre ser 5, Followers of Set:2
1 Badr al-Budur cel dom OBF qui 5, Assamite:2
----------------------------------------------
The answer is simple: Gratiano can block the rush and play Obedience.
Notice that this deck can use both Elysium: the Arboretum and Purchase
Pact.
Primary card of this deck is Govern the Unaligned, and ALL vampires
can use the card to bleed for 3 at stealth. This card used en masse
easily makes up for the slightly larger capacity comparing to usual
!Malk S&B deck (5.25-5.5).
And this deck can play Parity Shifts with stealth (it has 4 Princes).
Moreover, it can use Mariel, Lady Thunder for additional combat
protection!
Now, please, stop pleading that Dementation is evil since it allows
S&B decks.
> > Let's look at this from designer's perspective. If there is a deck
> > archetype that is too powerful, some cards should be banned, or the
> > new cards should be made against it (like disciplineless bounce), but
> > it would be strange to make another deck archetype "fix" the "broken"
> > archetype. Would you like a metagame where voting decks defeat rush
> > decks, rush decks defeat bleed decks, and bleed decks defeat voting
> > decks like rock-paper-scissors?
>
> Let's look at this from designer's perspective. Some archetypes are
> already powerful. New cards to enhance that strategy should not
> dramatically increase that archetype's power, but instead add variety,
> or something.
OK, let the other deck archetypes get some cards to defend against
S&B, and let S&B get some cards against rush. The game would only
benefit from this.
> > Coma is much worse than Madman's Fury. But at least you aren't calling
> > this card overpowered... With Madman's Fury, Escaped Mental Patients,
> > Ivory Bows and Rotschrecks, one can build dangeous enough combat
> > module.
>
> Coma's good enough for a bleed discipline. It doesn't need this card.
Looks like you didn't read my review of Coma... But I cannot say more
than I said before: this card is useless without support. Currently
it's used only as a "fear card", as you can easily discover in
Lasombra's Tournament-Winning Decks archive. There are NO decks having
more than 3 Coma.
> > Again, you aren't looking from the designer's perspective. Neighter
> > deck can completely avoid combat in this game, and that's right!
> > Combat is the primary source of players' interaction. If stealth-bleed
> > is too powerful, then designer should create new cards against it
> > (BTW, did you see Channel 10?). If the rush decks oust too slowly,
> > they get Dragonbound, and so on. Other deck types will get their tools
> > against S&B, and S&B should get its tools against combat decks.
>
> If S&B is still one of the strongest archetypes, it shouldn't get
> radical improvements. Your card is just too strong for dem to have.
> "Look at it from a designer's perspective".
Why Madman's Fury is too strong? And why Dementation is doomed to be
only "a bleed discipline" and nothing more? Dominate is the best bleed
discipline in the game, but is it limited to bleed?
Ector
Ector
> > You are completely wrong here, but Curevei already answered you. Tier
> > of Souls and Army of Rats are permanent bleed-enhancers, as are
> > retainers like Tasha Morgan. Moreover, there are numerous
> > Gangrel/!Gangrel with dom/DOM, and Dominate is the BEST bleeding
> > discipline in the game. One can use Caitlin, Soldat, Sebastian Goulet
> > and even Hartmut Stover in a PRO/dom/obf deck.
>
> You can also play Rachel for your fabulous PRO DEM OBF deck. This will
> give you access to this fantabulous S:CE without fabricating cards! ;)
Oh Dear! Look, Caitlin is 6, Soldat is 7, Sebastian Goulet is 8, and
only Hartmut Stover is 10. Then, Hartmut is going to "feed" you each
turn, and Sebastian Goulet can play Governs at superior.
Rachel is 10 without any Dominate, Rodolfo is 8, and Greger Anderssen
is 7. Only Rachel has superior Protean. Don't you see that such decks
arise just due to the desperation? BTW, only Rodolfo is anti-Malkavian
here...
> You're saying on the one hand that you want something for regular
> (!)malks without disciplines tacked on to survive combat, and on the
> other hand you're saying DOM/PRO decks are both good bleeders and have
> access to earthmeld.
It's simple: since Malks/!Malks cannot get decent protection from
their clan disciplines, they are forced to seek protection elsewhere.
This results in bizarre designs like decks based on Rachel.
> Giving this card to dementation is like giving a +1/+2 bleed modifier
> to protean. Not balanced with what the discipline already does.
I'd agree if you said "+1 bleed modifier". Personally I have nothing
against giving +1 bleed modifier to Protean.
Ector
Daneel
> Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message
> news:<opsg5cvw...@news.chello.hu>...
>
> I completely understand you, but you never played with such players.
> Sometimes my grandpredator rushes me just to slow my play and "for
> fun"... you know, most people enjoy bashing somebody who cannot strike
> back. It's also impossible to make any alliances with S&B, since
> anyone fears the deck... Maybe, I'll return to the archetype in the
> future.
>
> Ector
Don't take this the wrong way, but I think what you really need is a change
in climate. Meeting new faces, perhaps partaking in a tournament or two.
The people you play with don't seem to be very mature VTES players, and
that will obviously hinder your fun if you crave a more "authentic"
experience. I'm not saying that bashing stuff cannot be fun - I mean, one
of the most popular alternative rule sets is the Warzone. It's just that in
normal play bashing stuff for winning is quite acceptable, contrary to
bashing stuff instead of winning.
--
Bye,
Daneel
Ector
> Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote in message news:<d6c82c73.04110...@posting.google.com>...
> > X_Ze...@cox-internet.com (XZealot) wrote in message news:<607fd93.04110...@posting.google.com>...
> >
> > > >Run Away Like a Mad is broken?
> > > Yes, not quite as broken as RtI but still broken.
> > >
> > > What about Obedience, that cost NO blood?
> > >
> > > Obedience is a reaction card so is only usable when it is not your
> > > turn, and is only usable by an older vampire against vampires so Igrid
> > > Russo can't play it against Beast or Renagade Garou, and also is only
> > > anti-combat. These three restrictions versus Run Away like Mad which
> > > can be used during any combat regardless of who's turn it is, is
> > > usable against any vampire or ally for that matter, or can be used to
> > > enhance combat (i.e. Eddie Gaines 1 cap pot dem Run Away Like Mad then
> > > run over you with a Stunt Cycle, wasn't that fun).
> >
> > Please READ the card text prior to call it broken!!! :)
> > Run Away Like a Mad states "this minion...can perform only dodge
> > strikes during this combat", so Stunt Cycle cannot be played. Surely,
> > if the card allowed Stunt Cycle, it would be broken! But I
> > specifically designed the card to be pure defensive. So it wouldn't be
> > advantageous to use it on your turn anyway, unless you get caught,
> > which isn't likely to happen with !Malk stealth.
>
> Okay, I missed the dodge, but you still haven't address the fact that
> obedience can only be used on someone elses turn and only against
> smaller vampires and not at all against allies.
Surely, each card has its strengths and weaknesses. Obedience costs no
blood, and it completely cancels the combat. It can be played only on
someone else's turn, but playing Run Away when you are caught isn't
very beneficial anyway, as most intercept decks can strike at long
distance. Run Away also costs 1 blood. Looks like the card is properly
balanced (at least, for me). You can add "Only usable in combat with
acting vampire" to disable its usage on your turn and against allies,
if you think that's crucial.
> > > >What about Elysium: the Arboretum and Purchase Pact that are
> > > PERMANENT and cost no blood?
> > >
> > > Both are masters so are self limiting, and can only be used by
> > > Camrilla vs Camrilla or Sabbat vs. Sabbat, and each is burnable by an
> > > action, so they are NOT PERMANENT.
> >
> > Surely, they work only against the same sect. Now what? One Elysium
> > will grant a Ventrue political deck almost complete protection against
> > Brujah rush deck, but you still aren't calling it broken. Come on,
> > which combat deck can pass a political referendum against a voting
> > deck? If a deck can be shut with a single card, it's still OK, right?
> > As long as the winning deck is not S&B, of course :)
>
> Okay so you agree with me. They are totally different and not
> comparable to Run Away Like Mad. Your points against it are very
> weak. Ventrue being protected from Brujah is false, Ventrue get
> protection from Brujah, once per turn then it is dirt nap city.
Is the ability weak? Each Run Away offers limited protection for a
single combat, and it costs 1 blood. Ventrue can get good protection
from all their disciplines, and one Elysuim allows them to have, say,
10 protection cards instead of 15.
> As to your point of a combat deck passing a political referendum, I see
> Brujah-Archon decks pass referendums in the face of standing table
> votes (Ventrue included) all the time. Its called Bewitching Oration
> and various other vote push. So the deck isn't shut down.
Surely, Brujah can vote (only poor !Malks can do nothing else except
for S&B), but generally combat decks don't include a lot of vote
pushing cards. Even the mentioned Brujah-Archon deck that spend its
Bewitching Oration on Elysuim will possibly be unable to push its
Archon, which would be great for their prey.
> I don't have a problem with S&B winning, I just have a problem with me
> not winning. ;)
What are you playing, then? Most decks can include bleed bounce, bleed
reduction, Protected Resources and Archon Investigation.
> Pro/Dom is nice but isn't nearly as good as
> Obf/Dom or Obf/Dem. The tournament winning deck archive backs me up
> on this one.
>
> Number of Tournament Winning Decks:
> Gangrel: 26
> !Gangrel: 8
> Malkavian: 35
> !Malkavian:26
>
> Gangrel and !Gangrel put up 34 wins vs. 71 wins for the Malk/!Malks.
> That is a signifigant difference.
Statistics is a great thing... The last splash of Malk/!Malk
dementation-based S&B tournament-winning decks was in January. From
February, 1st till now you will find only THREE such decks in the
archive, along with nearly 80 other decks. Looks like people learned
ways to deal with S&B even WITHOUT rushing them.
> > OK, I'm also trying to be patient... Just read the card text prior to
> > calling it broken :)
>
> I am trying to be an Escaped Mental Patient...if I thought this card
> still wasn't broken.
Funny, very funny indeed :) Hard to understand your reasons, though.
> > Cailean - you can build a deck on him that would completely shut all
> > close-ranged combat decks, since his ability is permanent and free.
> > Faceless horde of dementation weenies with Run Away Like a Mad that
> > cost 1 blood? What about a horde of Presence weenies with Majesties?
> > Majesty is much better for a weenie deck, since it untaps a vampire at
> > superior. And you cannot find non-internal 3-cap and 4-cap vamps with
> > superior Dementation while there are Gideon Fountaine, Violette
> > Prentiss and Mariana Gilbert with PRE. Now what?
>
> > Score: 0-0. Your arguments weren't strong enough.
>
> Again, He costs 10, bleed for 1, and yes, he shuts down close range
> combat. He costs 10!!! I should hope that would be worth it.
He costs 10, sure. He can set range to short and play Immortal
Grapple, so you can forget the maneuvers with him. Alternatively, he
can shoot with Mark V or even throw Sewer Lid + shoot from RPG
Launcher at long range. Why do you think he bleeds for 1 with his PRE
and dom? For me, he is almost as good as Lazverinus. But you still
aren't calling him broken...
> Wow! My point exactly! Faceless weenie hordes are bad for the game.
> We have faceless presence weenie horde lets not add faceless
> dementation weenie horde. Oops too late! We already have it.
> Faceless Dementation weenie horde is already here. Hmm, Eddie Gaines,
> 1 cap, turn 2 plays Dive into Madness to get superior DEM, plays
> Kindred Spirit and Eyes of Chaos for a bleed of 4 and gains a pool if
> successful, plays Deny to stealth past 4 cap that was influenced out.
There are much more devastating openings with a goldfish. What are the
chances to get it, though? Once I was bled for 8 by Gwendolyn with
Govern and Conditioning, and had none of my 7 Telepathic Misdirections
at the moment. Now what?
> Does Presence weenie dominate the game?
>
> Yes it does and so does weenie Dem
>
> Stealth is better than Strike Combat Ends any day of the week. Weenie
> Dem has it, and Weenie Prescence doesn't.
>
> Weenie Dem can get superior DEM as a action and Weenie presence can't
>
> 0-1 you still lose. :)
Yeah, you're a good joker. Where do you see Dem weenies? Just look at
the tournament-winning decks archive. Last version of 'Fast Eddie' (by
Marco Saari) has average capacity of 4.92! And you can find true
weenie deck based on Presence with average capacity of 2.67.
I'm tired of your unfounded "goals", so let's skip this entirely.
> > > 2) Sniper Rifle- equiment, costs an action which is blockable, costs 2
> > > pool so NOT FREE, only usable when you block an action versus Run Away
> > > Like Mad which can be used any time. 0-2 You lose.
> >
> > Sniper Rifle can be equipped by ANY vampire with Concealed Weapon.
> > Moreover, not every deck can block +1 stealth action. Paying 2 pool
> > once is much better than paying 1 blood repeatedly (say, 10 times for
> > a long game). Sniper Rifle provides long range plus 2R damage without
> > any additional cards and without blood loss, while Run Away Like a Mad
> > allows only dodges.
>
> Yes, it can be Concealed onto a Minion, but can't be used in that
> combat since if you conceal it out you didn't have it when you
> blocked. Also unless you can maneuver to long in the combat that you
> concealed it out then you cannot use it because it is only usable at
> long range.
Now what? You should pack maneuvers anyway if you're going to fight at
long range. And even if you won't shoot first combat, this doesn't
mean much unless you are going to be torporized.
> Whether 2 pool once is better than 1 blood repeatedly is just not
> right. I'll pay one blood all day long rather than 2 pool, see
> infernal arguemnents if you want to see how that works.
>
I'd see the "infernal arguments" if you'd provide a link. But, IMHO,
blood can eventually be converted to pool via Blood Dolls, Minion Taps
etc.
> > Shadow Step: Did we talk about rareness? The card exists, and it's
> > going to be reprinted. NOT FREE? Looks like Run Away Like a Mad is
> > free! Doesn't give you extra maneuver and press? But you can play
> > Shadow Step + Ahriman's Demesne to BURN a vampire (even Cailean!),
> > while Run Away only allows dodging...
>
> Again, you are not address in the points. The point about it being
> rare is moot. It exists but not in sufficient quanities to draw a
> sample from. It is not FREE to set range, so you were wrong when you
> said it was free.
Oh, it was just a "clerical error". I meant that abilities of Cailean
and Sniper Rifle are free.
> FYI, Shadow Step and Ahriman's Demense cost 4 and is only playable 2nd
> round after you have press to get to it (minimum 3 card combo) which
> is no where near as good as Coma played for 3 first round (1 card
> combo).
So, you proved to be the true shadowveaver :) Coma just torporizes a
vampire without draining his blood. Obtenebration can use Arms of the
Abyss + Entombment to obtain FAR MORE RELIABLE way to torporize a
vampire for 2 blood AND evading being torporized themselves. Now
please find a way to BURN a vampire in combat that would require less
than 3 cards...
> You should be
> proud that your banner clan is one of the most successful in the
> history of the game. My point is that Run Away Like Mad would make
> them so good against the one strategy that is the Rock to their
> Scissors, that they would be too good and therefore it is a broken
> card.
Well, and I completely disagree with the whole Rock-Paper-Scissors
situation. It makes the game less interesting than it could be.
Results of any game depend on seating order too heavily...
> > > >> !Malks/Malks are the steamroller of VTES. They make you lose, and
> > > if you try > to stand in their way, then they make you lose faster.
> > >
<snip a lot>
> They are potent as I say. They are the most successful archtype in
> the history of VTES. As to banning cards, talk to Scott, but my
> thought are that we should make other strategies more powerful while
> keeping S&B rather static.
Once more, and more, and more... Who wants to make S&B stronger? I
only wanted to enable OTHER !Malkavian decks. Maybe, my Run Away Like
a Mad would really make S&B stronger, so I should create another card?
It would be hard enough to make a card usable by !Malks but not usable
by S&B, but it can be done.
What about this:
Cardname: Mental Clinic
Cardtype: Master - Unique location
Cost: 2 pool
Clan: Malkavian antitribu
Card Text: Put this card in play. You may tap this card before range
is determined to end combat involving your vampire and the acting
vampire. Burn this card if a minion you control successfully bleeds.
> > In case you didn't know, bleed isn't exclusive Malkavian trait, not
> > even stealth-bleed. Lasombra can bleed at stealth while still having
> > two good combat disciplines. It's quite possible to build DOM/OBF
> > decks, too. Thus, your position "stealth-bleed is dangerous, so it
> > should be easily pummeled" looks like very strange.
>
> That is exactly what i am saying. Stealth-Bleed is the most powerful
> archtype in the game and has more tournament wins to its credit than
> any other. It should be vulnerable to combat which is the "Control"
> archtype. Making it immune to combat is BAD FOR THE GAME (TM). So if
> that looks strange to you then you are writing the newsletter for the
> appropriate clan, the clan of the insane. :)
Surely, I possess the superior Dementation :) But I still don't agree
that ANY deck in the game SHOULD be as severely limited in combat
defense. BTW, looks like you're going to write Brujah newsletters :)
Aren't you?
Best regards,
Ector
David Zopf
"Ector" <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote in message
news:d6c82c73.04110...@posting.google.com...
> Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message
> news:<BDB566DB.1AB27%pd...@lightlink.com>...
>> The Malkvians are
>> *incredibly* powerful in and of themselves. Their main weakness is Rush
>> combat (and bounce). Giving them *more* viable rush combat defense than
>> they
>> already have is just going to make them even more powerful, which they
>> don't
>> need to be.
>
> Holy cow! Did I say that Malkavians cannot do anything? S&B is a good
> deck, and it's very powerful indeed. And it really CAN use these
> Swalloweds, Deny and Gemini's Mirrors. Thanks a lot for a good defense
> package... I'll try it when I find the needed cards.
> But what if I'm tired of S&B and want to play something else?
Play. A. Different. Clan.
> !Malks
> have brilliant Sibyl's Tongue card, but they cannot use it effectively
> since it requires time, and they are likely to be beaten meanwhile.
> !Malks have some brilliant vamps for a voting deck (Korah, Marie
> Faucigny, General Perfidio Dios), but the deck is likely to fail for
> the same reason. Both decks cannot run 30 card just for "casual combat
> protection".
Why not? As Peter pointed out, there are a wealth of cards that serve a
dual purpose (typically stealth, plus combat) at the Malk's disposal. Why
does deckbuilding need to be made easier? Its _supposed_ to be a challenge.
I think you may need to crouch at the knee of some folks who have taken on
_real_ deckbuilding challenges, in order to appreciate how much you seem to
be simply wanting someone to print a card to make your deckbuilding issues
go away. Go over to www.thepathofblood.com, and see what the folks there
(especially Todd B, The Scribe) have worked through just trying to get the
Assamites to the level of 'viable winner'. To put it simply, I don't think
you've tried hard enough to make your strategy prospect work.
> Don't you think that a single clan strategy makes the game weak and
> dull?
Yes, as it unneccessarily biases the game towards using that clan more than
others. Lack of diversity equals death.
> To my mind, making the whole clan extremely weak in combat hurts
> the game.
Not when that same clan is given so many other powerful tools by which to
win the game...
> If you think that combat protection would make S&B too
> strong, then other clans should get some cards against it (someone
> mentioned disciplineless bounce, for instance), but making the game
> like "rock-paper-scissors", when one deck archetype easily beats
> another (and calling this a balance!), IMHO, isn't good enough.
>
Yeah, some nut named Ryan Dancey made the RPS argument about VTES a ways
back. He decided to re-relase Rage instead. Oops... It turns out, there
is enough combat defense in the Malks to make them unpredictable in their
capabilities of dealing with combat. This is adequate enough such that a
true RPS circumstance can be disrupted.
Making stealth bleed more powerful by coupling it with more efficient combat
defense wouldn't provide anything good to VTES.
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
Darky
> jja....@hccnet.nl (Darky) wrote in message news:<93148a54.04110...@posting.google.com>...
> > Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote in message news:<d6c82c73.04110...@posting.google.com>...
> > > jja....@hccnet.nl (Darky) wrote in message news:<93148a54.04110...@posting.google.com>...
> > >
> > > Some combat decks function at any distance. And Dodge can save your
> > > butt in many situations.
> >
> > Maneuvers double as stealth. Dodges, at best, double as maneuvers.
> > Dodges can save your butt, but every dodge you put in could be spent
> > better.
>
> Surely. That's why better protection cards are needed.
No, that's why you're better off including swallowed by the night, and
maybe a zip gun or IR goggles or something.
> > > > > > Hungry coyote is a good way to survive combat decks as well. (rescue
> > > > > > costs 2 actions and net 0 blood) Hunting is a good way to survive.
> > > > > > The Coven is in the same category.
> <snip>
> > When beast does torporize him, rescuing, then hunting, will cost you
> > less.
>
> Well, at least my resqued vampire will have 2 bllod to resque his
> resquer on the next turn, right?
Indeed.
> > > Then I really can't understand why you consider Run Away overpowered
> > > (a virtual combat ends)? Any long-range combat deck would laugh at the
> > > card. I only think that this card would raise chances of non-IG combat
> > > strategies.
> >
> > I kinda like close range combat without IG.
>
> I see. You should really hate Cailean, Sniper Rifle and Shadow Step
> then, as well as all weapons with inbuilt maneuvers. Why not include
> some long-range strikes, or weapons instead of spiting on the
> relatively weak cards like Run Away? BTW, how do you deal with S:CE
> without Grapples?
Getting into combat a lot. Toolbox decks dont need something to trump
S:CE.
Cailean is rare and a 10cap. Sniper rifle needs can't be used
offensively. Shadow step costs 2 blood. All of those can be countered
by a dodge, as they're usually used by decks built to do combat. Run
away like mad is just combat defense, and to strong at that.
> > > Frankly, I don't see any "brokenness" in Run Away Like a Mad, except
> > > for the fear of making stealth & bleed decks stronger.
> >
> > It's broken because it's a dem card.
>
> Dementation is bad, I see :) BAN Kindred Spirits! BAN Eyes of Chaos!
> Looks like I propose these cards too early. With Channel 10,
> stealth-bleed decks will be seriously dampened, and, maybe, then
> people won't fear them anymore...
No dementation isn't bad. Run away like mad would make it bad. Giving
a serious bleed modifier to, say, obfuscate, would make obfuscate bad
as well.
Channel 10 isn't as hot as you might think.
> > > Well, if you are looking for superior Dominate, you may be
> > > right, but even dom/OBF vampire can bleed for 3 with Govern the
> > > Unaligned or Conditioning. And you can find 5-capacity dom/OBF
> > > vampires, like Count Ormonde or Zebulon. Most Malkavian bleeders are
> > > 5-7 capacity as well, since basic Dementation allows bleeding only for
> > > two.
> >
> > I'm saying combat-defense based on obedience needs large capacity.
> > 5caps with defense based on obedience is wasting space.
>
> Here's rough sketch of my Dom/Obf voting/bleeding deck (crypt only):
>
> Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 21, Max: 31, Avg: 6,67)
> ----------------------------------------------
> 3 Gratiano DOM obf OBT pot 8, Lasombra:2, Priscus
> 1 Mariel aus DOM OBF tha 7, Malkavian:1
> 2 Greger Anderssen AUS dom OBF pro 7, Malkavian:2, Prince
> 2 Gilbert Duane AUS DOM OBF 7, Malkavian:1, Prince
> 1 Ozmo AUS dom obf 6, Malkavian:1
> 1 Zebulon aus dom OBF pro 5, Malkavian:1
> 1 Count Ormonde dom OBF pre ser 5, Followers of Set:2
> 1 Badr al-Budur cel dom OBF qui 5, Assamite:2
> ----------------------------------------------
>
> The answer is simple: Gratiano can block the rush and play Obedience.
> Notice that this deck can use both Elysium: the Arboretum and Purchase
> Pact.
Go ahead and see how it does.
> Primary card of this deck is Govern the Unaligned, and ALL vampires
> can use the card to bleed for 3 at stealth. This card used en masse
> easily makes up for the slightly larger capacity comparing to usual
> !Malk S&B deck (5.25-5.5).
> And this deck can play Parity Shifts with stealth (it has 4 Princes).
> Moreover, it can use Mariel, Lady Thunder for additional combat
> protection!
> Now, please, stop pleading that Dementation is evil since it allows
> S&B decks.
Where did I say dementation is evil since it allows S&B decks? I said
it doesn't need rather extreme combat defense like run away like mad,
because it would unbalance S&B decks even further.
> > > Let's look at this from designer's perspective. If there is a deck
> > > archetype that is too powerful, some cards should be banned, or the
> > > new cards should be made against it (like disciplineless bounce), but
> > > it would be strange to make another deck archetype "fix" the "broken"
> > > archetype. Would you like a metagame where voting decks defeat rush
> > > decks, rush decks defeat bleed decks, and bleed decks defeat voting
> > > decks like rock-paper-scissors?
> >
> > Let's look at this from designer's perspective. Some archetypes are
> > already powerful. New cards to enhance that strategy should not
> > dramatically increase that archetype's power, but instead add variety,
> > or something.
>
> OK, let the other deck archetypes get some cards to defend against
> S&B, and let S&B get some cards against rush. The game would only
> benefit from this.
> > > Coma is much worse than Madman's Fury. But at least you aren't calling
> > > this card overpowered... With Madman's Fury, Escaped Mental Patients,
> > > Ivory Bows and Rotschrecks, one can build dangeous enough combat
> > > module.
> >
> > Coma's good enough for a bleed discipline. It doesn't need this card.
>
> Looks like you didn't read my review of Coma... But I cannot say more
> than I said before: this card is useless without support. Currently
> it's used only as a "fear card", as you can easily discover in
> Lasombra's Tournament-Winning Decks archive. There are NO decks having
> more than 3 Coma.
And this is bad why?
> > > Again, you aren't looking from the designer's perspective. Neighter
> > > deck can completely avoid combat in this game, and that's right!
> > > Combat is the primary source of players' interaction. If stealth-bleed
> > > is too powerful, then designer should create new cards against it
> > > (BTW, did you see Channel 10?). If the rush decks oust too slowly,
> > > they get Dragonbound, and so on. Other deck types will get their tools
> > > against S&B, and S&B should get its tools against combat decks.
> >
> > If S&B is still one of the strongest archetypes, it shouldn't get
> > radical improvements. Your card is just too strong for dem to have.
> > "Look at it from a designer's perspective".
>
> Why Madman's Fury is too strong?
It isn't, it's just not needed.
> And why Dementation is doomed to be
> only "a bleed discipline" and nothing more?
It already definately isnt.
> Dominate is the best bleed
> discipline in the game, but is it limited to bleed?
I'd say dem rivals dom as bleed discipline. DOM is usually perceived
to be too strong. DEM would be too if your run away like mad would be
introduced.
> Ector
-Bram Vink
Darky
> > <snip>
> > > You are completely wrong here, but Curevei already answered you. Tier
> > > of Souls and Army of Rats are permanent bleed-enhancers, as are
> > > retainers like Tasha Morgan. Moreover, there are numerous
> > > Gangrel/!Gangrel with dom/DOM, and Dominate is the BEST bleeding
> > > discipline in the game. One can use Caitlin, Soldat, Sebastian Goulet
> > > and even Hartmut Stover in a PRO/dom/obf deck.
> >
> > You can also play Rachel for your fabulous PRO DEM OBF deck. This will
> > give you access to this fantabulous S:CE without fabricating cards! ;)
>
> Oh Dear! Look, Caitlin is 6, Soldat is 7, Sebastian Goulet is 8, and
> only Hartmut Stover is 10. Then, Hartmut is going to "feed" you each
> turn, and Sebastian Goulet can play Governs at superior.
ok then play malk/!malk with presence, irrelevant.
> Rachel is 10 without any Dominate, Rodolfo is 8, and Greger Anderssen
> is 7. Only Rachel has superior Protean. Don't you see that such decks
> arise just due to the desperation? BTW, only Rodolfo is anti-Malkavian
> here...
There's a very decent deck based on rachel.
> > You're saying on the one hand that you want something for regular
> > (!)malks without disciplines tacked on to survive combat, and on the
> > other hand you're saying DOM/PRO decks are both good bleeders and have
> > access to earthmeld.
>
> It's simple: since Malks/!Malks cannot get decent protection from
> their clan disciplines, they are forced to seek protection elsewhere.
> This results in bizarre designs like decks based on Rachel.
which is also very very effective.
> > Giving this card to dementation is like giving a +1/+2 bleed modifier
> > to protean. Not balanced with what the discipline already does.
>
> I'd agree if you said "+1 bleed modifier". Personally I have nothing
> against giving +1 bleed modifier to Protean.
>
> Ector
Your card definatly isn't just a +1 bleed modifier. it's comparable to
a S:CE, and in some metagames definately better.
-Bram Vink
Curevei
>should be banned.
I may suggest that cards get banned all of the time, but banning something
because it's the best isn't a good reason because, obviously, something is
always best. Banning the best only makes sense when it opens up more
possibilities (of some factor).
>Look, I'm not a child (BTW, I'm 33), and I really
>think that the game can be balanced without the "rock-paper-scissors"
>principle (I mean, Rush beats S&B, S&B beats anything else, and
>anything else beats Rush) Still, I appreciate your attitude
I don't see much RPS in multiplayer play. And, I'd contend that rush is good
for S&B in the grand scheme of things. As there's really not much point to my
post unless I expand upon this -
S&B has a much easier time ousting rush decks than it does certain archetypes.
Weenie Auspex, decks that build up a massive board position like certain P/J
decks that run Progeny or heavy permanent decks, and the like are horrendous
for S&B to deal with unless they can get to them fast enough or get help from
another player. OTOH, rush is quite suited for pounding the crap out of these
decks, giving anyone a chance to oust them.
Plus, outside of a few archetypes, S&B has the most deckspace to play with.
Rush? Has to expend card slots making sure it nukes minions. Vote? Has to
run votes to oust, have ways of getting past casual intercept, force through
votes. B&B? Has to have enough combat for the threat, enough bleed for the
threat, and enough of something to survive a predator. Anyway, that a S&B deck
can devote more slots to combat (or eschew combat all together and go for extra
speed) gives it an edge in contesting with a rush deck over, say, a vote deck
which just can't spare the same number of slots.
BTW, not every S&B deck is going to be as combat fragile as a !Malk one will
tend to be. For instance, Tzimisce S&B isn't nearly as good at the S or the B,
but it can cause all sorts of problems for combat decks.
Curevei
>their clan disciplines, they are forced to seek protection elsewhere.
>This results in bizarre designs like decks based on Rachel.
How viable would the Brujah be if they lacked any vampires with Dominate?
Maybe as bad as the !Brujah who have something like 3 wins in the TWDA,
comparable to the bloodlines. (Though, I think Cammie numbers tend to be
inflated because their popularity exceeds their goodness, even if their
goodness tends to be higher than average.)
How many fewer wins would the Gangrel have if they couldn't play Dominate or
Serpentis(!)?
Point is that it's a common problem in this game that inclans leave significant
weaknesses. Some weaknesses matter more than others. Lack of bounce is oodles
more important than lack of good combat. The only two "complete" clans that
come to mind in the game are Lasombra and Tzimisce, and they are often
defeated.
Matthew T. Morgan
> "Matthew T. Morgan" <far...@eris.io.com> wrote in message news:<Pine.LNX.4.44.04110...@eris.io.com>...
> > On 8 Nov 2004, Ector wrote:
> >
> > > If I could use my 's:ce' card instead of Obedience, I could play more
> > > copies, since all my vampires could use it, regardless of their
> > > capacity. Korah and Marie Faucigny could play it to defend against
> > > Beast and Theo Bell, thus enabling voting deck, and so on.
> >
> > Gemini's Mirror and a few Swallowed by the Night should keep you healthy
> > long enough to have a game at least. I don't see how the existence of
> > Theo and Beast prevent you from playing a !Malk vote deck. That's like
> > saying you can't play a Ventrue Law Firm deck because Carna exists.
>
> This situation is completely different. You can use Kiss of Ra or
> Seduction to get past Carna, and you generally HAVE TIME to find these
> cards. You can use Ivory Bow to make Carna cover in fear. Carna just
> hurts you, but not destroys you. Beast and Theo Bell kill my vampires,
> and I currently cannot defend with a reasonable number of card slots.
Okay, fair point. So I gather you're saying that the stealth bleed deck
may just oust somebody quickly enough to survive Beast and Theo, but a
!Malk vote deck probably not be effective enough. Based on my recent
experience with a !Malk vote deck, I'd be inclined to agree. However,
vote decks do have some advantages. You could Dramatic Upheaval somewhere
safer (if such a place exists). If you're playing with larger vamps, you
could buy yourself some time with Banishment.
> > My playgroup is pretty fighty and I think we've all experimented with
> > different kinds of combat defense when we go for vote or bleed decks. The
> > fact of the matter is that if somebody is going to rush you all day,
> > you're going to go down no matter how many defense cards you run. Often
> > we'll just not bother devoting space to anti-combat. Instead we rely on
> > cunning, lying and whining. Two popular strategies:
> >
> > Pretend to be sufficiently cowed when a rush deck is your prey. Sit and
> > do nothing until you have the perfect hand and can kill your prey in one
> > turn. Rescue your grandprey to keep her in the game.
> >
> > Scream blood murder when your predator rushes you. Get table to rescue.
> > Get table to throw vote damage on the predator. Don't die. Eventually
> > the rush deck will have to go upstream to stay alive. Then you kill your
> > unsuspecting prey.
> >
> > Works sometimes. Fails to work sometimes. Just like everything else in
> > this game, I think.
>
> Thanks a lot for the good lesson :) Unfortunately, I'm not very good
> at cunning, lying and whining... Frankly, i'm VERY BAD in this. Most
> our players already know that even with a single vampire S&B still can
> oust his prey, so they can believe my whinings only when all my
> vampires are torporized.
Well, that's something you might want to try to improve upon. If you're
always seen as the big table threat, make some bad decks. You must always
play to win, but that rule doesn't govern deck construction. Eventually
your group will pick someone else as the bad guy and you can stage a
comeback, win some games and be the threat again. :)
> And I really appreciate "The fact of the matter is that if somebody is
> going to rush you all day, you're going to go down no matter how many
> defense cards you run" sentence. That's right... but, thanks God, only
> few vampires can rush you all the day... and good protection cards at
> least would make some players think prior to wasting their Bum's
> Rushes.
Another route you could try is to play trump combat. Agg damage +
Rotschreck is a big favorite. I had a lot of luck with this deck:
http://www.misanthropology.org/DC_VTES/modules.php?name=Decks&op=show_deck&did=71
(decklist has been slightly altered since then - three Protean
skillcards?!?)
Most grapple decks will just die to Flesh of Marble + Claws of the Dead or
Claws of the Dead + Rotschreck. By effectively trumping those decks
(which are fairly frequent around here), I eliminated a major weakness at
the expense of only 12 card slots (I don't count the Forms of Mist because
those are really better for bleeding and tapping a blocker). Gun decks
could still beat this one, but those are less common in my region.
You could also drop a Pentex Subversion on the offending vamp or give him
Mind of a Child. Total Insanity might work against a deck that relies on
Bum's Rush. Weenie chump blockers are helpful. I hear Boy Toy likes
jumping in front of freight trains. If you rescue him, he'll be glad to
do it again. You've already mentioned Escaped Mental Patients. They
combo nicely with Rotschreck (if you play Rotschreck on the Patient's
strike, he doesn't burn). Just be sure to diablerize the rushers you
manage to torporize.
On the downside, if you get good enough at this you'll probably be even
more of a table threat and people will figure out how to trump your trump,
which means you'll have to trump the trump-trump. Eventually you'll start
seeing decks with 75 combat cards and no rushes because you're guarenteed
to get into combat anyway. Then someone will have the bright idea to just
bleed for 5 at stealth and watch all the combat decks cry and it begins
anew.
Matt Morgan
XZealot
> blood, and it completely cancels the combat. It can be played only on
> someone else's turn, but playing Run Away when you are caught isn't
> very beneficial anyway, as most intercept decks can strike at long
> distance. Run Away also costs 1 blood. Looks like the card is properly
> balanced (at least, for me). You can add "Only usable in combat with
> acting vampire" to disable its usage on your turn and against allies,
> if you think that's crucial.
>
You also forgot that Obedience can only be used against younger
vampires. Also you would be breaking new ground by introducing a
combat card that is dependent upon whose turn it is, there is no such
combat card in existance so this would be a new mechanic to be
playtested. Better to make it a reaction card.
>> Okay so you agree with me. They are totally different and not
>> comparable to Run Away Like Mad. Your points against it are very
>> weak. Ventrue being protected from Brujah is false, Ventrue get
>> protection from Brujah, once per turn then it is dirt nap city.
>
> Is the ability weak? Each Run Away offers limited protection for a
> single combat, and it costs 1 blood. Ventrue can get good protection
> from all their disciplines, and one Elysuim allows them to have, say,
> 10 protection cards instead of 15.
Is what ability weak? Your line of logic trying to connect Elysium to
Run Away Like Mad is tenuous at best. Elysium is unique and if you
put 10 of them in your deck you are going to lose. You are trying to
compare a combat card to a master card. Combat Cards have a high
cycle rate and Master Cards have a low cycle rate( 1 per turn)
>> As to your point of a combat deck passing a political referendum, I
see
>> Brujah-Archon decks pass referendums in the face of standing table
>> votes (Ventrue included) all the time. Its called Bewitching
Oration
>> and various other vote push. So the deck isn't shut down.
>
> Surely, Brujah can vote (only poor !Malks can do nothing else except
> for S&B), but generally combat decks don't include a lot of vote
> pushing cards. Even the mentioned Brujah-Archon deck that spend its
> Bewitching Oration on Elysuim will possibly be unable to push its
> Archon, which would be great for their prey.
Boo Hoo! Poor !Malks with their 9 titles and superior AUS on all of
them can't vote (hint, hint Telepathic Vote Counting).
>> I don't have a problem with S&B winning, I just have a problem with
me
>> not winning. ;)
>
> What are you playing, then? Most decks can include bleed bounce, bleed
> reduction, Protected Resources and Archon Investigation.
My decks suck. I post them here regularly.
>> Pro/Dom is nice but isn't nearly as good as
>> Obf/Dom or Obf/Dem. The tournament winning deck archive backs me
up
>> on this one.
>>
>> Number of Tournament Winning Decks:
>> Gangrel: 26
>> !Gangrel: 8
>> Malkavian: 35
>> !Malkavian:26
>>
>> Gangrel and !Gangrel put up 34 wins vs. 71 wins for the
Malk/!Malks.
>> That is a signifigant difference.
>
> Statistics is a great thing... The last splash of Malk/!Malk
> dementation-based S&B tournament-winning decks was in January. From
> February, 1st till now you will find only THREE such decks in the
> archive, along with nearly 80 other decks. Looks like people learned
> ways to deal with S&B even WITHOUT rushing them.
People have been dealing with S&B for almost 10 years now. Rush is
just one of many counter-strategies to S&B.
>> > OK, I'm also trying to be patient... Just read the card text
prior to
>> > calling it broken :)
>>
>> I am trying to be an Escaped Mental Patient...if I thought this
card
>> still wasn't broken.
>
> Funny, very funny indeed :)
I aim to please
>Hard to understand your reasons, though.
I can't see why; I am putting them in black and white.
>> Again, He costs 10, bleed for 1, and yes, he shuts down close range
>> combat. He costs 10!!! I should hope that would be worth it.
>
> He costs 10, sure. He can set range to short and play Immortal
> Grapple, so you can forget the maneuvers with him. Alternatively, he
> can shoot with Mark V or even throw Sewer Lid + shoot from RPG
> Launcher at long range. Why do you think he bleeds for 1 with his PRE
> and dom? For me, he is almost as good as Lazverinus. But you still
> aren't calling him broken...
Neither He nor Lazvernius are broken, Run Like Mad is broken. Thanks
for not addressing any of my points.
> There are much more devastating openings with a goldfish. What are the
> chances to get it, though?
Name 1 play with a 1 cap that gains you 1 pool, gains the edge,
inflicts 4 pool damage on your prey at stealth that you can do on
round 2. You can't do it. It doesn't exist.
Once I was bled for 8 by Gwendolyn with
> Govern and Conditioning, and had none of my 7 Telepathic Misdirections
> at the moment. Now what?
Gwendolyn is an 11 cap not a 1 cap. You are seeing double. You are
seeing double. 1+1=11 :)
>> Does Presence weenie dominate the game?
>>
>> Yes it does and so does weenie Dem
>>
>> Stealth is better than Strike Combat Ends any day of the week.
Weenie
>> Dem has it, and Weenie Prescence doesn't.
>>
>> Weenie Dem can get superior DEM as a action and Weenie presence
can't
>>
>> 0-1 you still lose. :)
>
> Yeah, you're a good joker. Where do you see Dem weenies?
9 vampires with at least inferior dem at capacity 4 or less.
18 vampires with at least inferior dem at capacity 5 or less
4 vampires with Superior DEM at capacity 5 or less.
Just look at
> the tournament-winning decks archive. Last version of 'Fast Eddie' (by
> Marco Saari) has average capacity of 4.92! And you can find true
> weenie deck based on Presence with average capacity of 2.67.
> I'm tired of your unfounded "goals", so let's skip this entirely.
You are the one using biased examples. Stick to the facts. Weenie
Dem is at least if not more dangerous than weenie Pre.
> Now what? You should pack maneuvers anyway if you're going to fight at
> long range. And even if you won't shoot first combat, this doesn't
> mean much unless you are going to be torporized.
Again, you are totally missing the point. Sniper Rifle only works
half the time, when you are blocking. Run Away Like Mad works all the
time.
>> Whether 2 pool once is better than 1 blood repeatedly is just not
>> right. I'll pay one blood all day long rather than 2 pool, see
>> infernal arguemnents if you want to see how that works.
>>
> I'd see the "infernal arguments" if you'd provide a link. But, IMHO,
> blood can eventually be converted to pool via Blood Dolls, Minion Taps
> etc.
If you don't understand how 2 POOL is more than 1 BLOOD than it just
isn't worth arguing.
>> FYI, Shadow Step and Ahriman's Demense cost 4 and is only playable
2nd
>> round after you have press to get to it (minimum 3 card combo)
which
>> is no where near as good as Coma played for 3 first round (1 card
>> combo).
>
> So, you proved to be the true shadowveaver :) Coma just torporizes a
> vampire without draining his blood.
Obtenebration can use Arms of the
> Abyss + Entombment to obtain FAR MORE RELIABLE way to torporize a
> vampire for 2 blood AND evading being torporized themselves. Now
> please find a way to BURN a vampire in combat that would require less
> than 3 cards...
Coma, Amaranth. 2 cards
Basilia Amaranth 1 cards
Igo diablerizes Arika 0 cards
Any more hoops I can jump through?
> Well, and I completely disagree with the whole Rock-Paper-Scissors
> situation. It makes the game less interesting than it could be.
> Results of any game depend on seating order too heavily...
You should play something other than !Malks if everyone is beating you
to death.
> Once more, and more, and more... Who wants to make S&B stronger?
Run Away Like Mad would make S&B stronger.
I
> only wanted to enable OTHER !Malkavian decks. Maybe, my Run Away Like
> a Mad would really make S&B stronger, so I should create another card?
Yes, new ideas are good.
> It would be hard enough to make a card usable by !Malks but not usable
> by S&B, but it can be done.
> What about this:
>
> Cardname: Mental Clinic
> Cardtype: Master - Unique location
> Cost: 2 pool
> Clan: Malkavian antitribu
> Card Text: Put this card in play. You may tap this card before range
> is determined to end combat involving your vampire and the acting
> vampire. Burn this card if a minion you control successfully bleeds.
This seems much more reasonable.
> Surely, I possess the superior Dementation :) But I still don't agree
> that ANY deck in the game SHOULD be as severely limited in combat
> defense. BTW, looks like you're going to write Brujah newsletters :)
> Aren't you?
these are truely rantings from a Madman's Quill FYI, all decks have
access to combat defense they are Dodge, Fake Out and Zip Gun.
I write the Gargoyle Newsletter and I used to write the Followers of
Set Newsletter. I post decks regularly. I enjoy other newsletters,
especially ones with hypothetical cards like yours. Keep it up. :)
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr.
Curevei
>> can adjust to it.
>
>How can I adjust S&B deck to environment with two long-range Brujah
>deck, one Nosferatu Immortal Grapple deck, one Toreador Magnum/Blur
>deck and a couple of Tremere intercept/combat decks?
Play more cards that prevent combat from taking place is one possibility. As
has been mentioned a couple times, Secure Haven slows down the rushes. More
stealth prevents intercept. Graft Fortitude or some other discipline that
gives combat defense.
I think you are just asking about !Malk S&B. Because, if you played Malk S&B,
you could also run Elysiums in such an environment. Protean/Dominate S&B has
Flesh of Marble, Form of Mist, et al. Etc.
Alternatively, as someone else has stated rather than just alluded to - stop
playing whatever deck you are playing, adjust to your metagame by playing
vampires who handle combat better.
The fact of the matter is that fighting the metagame is never going to work as
well as adjusting to it. Lots of us don't have a recognizable metagame to
adjust to, which makes trying to break the metagame a largely futile endeavor.
Since you do, you are in a position to try to break it.
>> Your point about the !Malks having a dearth of reasonable offensive combat
>> options is valid. But, there are 33 clans in the game, and, at least, this
>> one
>> clan has good winning options and some not so good options that might
>interest
>> someone, e.g. prison.
>
>My point was about !Malks having a dearth of good DEFENSIVE combat
>options.
Which isn't the case, unless you think anything besides combat ends or Flesh of
Marble is a "dearth"*. Maneuver + dodge doesn't seem that bad in your
metagame. .44/Blur/Psyche! isn't good for you, but if that deck metagamed
against combat ends with more Psyche!s and less Blurs, you'd be toast even if
you had access to combat ends. Grapple deck can't press off Grapple if it
doesn't play it.
* Okay, since I think combat ends is broken, I can actually see this argument.
>Surely, each clan should have some winning options (or it would be
>virtually dead in the game), but the single winning option for a clan
>makes playing the clan dull.
I would agree that the !Malks are more dull than they could be. I don't think
it's so much a single winning option problem since I believe even bad decks can
win, but that their best option is so far in advance of other options that
leads to dullness. !Malks pale in comparison to Malks (not the only antitribu
with that problem) and lost a lot of uniqueness when the new Malks came in with
the same discipline set.
Yet Malks, an amazingly interesting clan, have the same problem to a (lesser)
degree with having their best option be far better than other options.
Besides, for a reason to not play Malks, it's like cheating to play them.
Having trouble staying on point, but sort of what I'm getting at is something
like how I don't find the Assamites particularly interesting but the challenge
of them is a motivator to try and, similarly, any sort of challenge, like
finding something besides stealth bleed with !Malks may be a motivator as well.
I tried prison decks using cards like The Haunting 2-3 times. I found them
tedious and largely ineffectual, but maybe putting more effort into the
archetype can see a better deck.
>> As for defensive combat, taken together, the options available are not
>> particularly bad.
>>
>> You said "By the way, any "stealth & something" deck has very
>> little free space, since it has to contain stealth cards and primary
>> strategy cards (i.e. bleed cards in a stealth-bleed deck)."
>>
>> I don't agree with that. Stealth bleed has more free space than most
>> archetypes, which allows it to devote extra slots to combat if it feels
>like
>> it.
>
>Believe me, I tried to put a lot of defensive cards in my S&B decks.
>20 cards (including combo cards like Deny and Swallowed) was not
>enough, nearly 30 was needed, and the deck became pointless. Maybe,
>S&B has more free space than intercept/combat decks, but they are
>second from the bottom
Maybe you are trying the wrong cards. More space doesn't mean pump a bunch of
combat cards in. More space can mean things like running some anticombat
masters or more Direct Interventions to nail rush cards, running more stealth
to prevent intercept combat from getting you, running something like Sleep
Unseen, running more equipment - Leather Jacket, Flash Grenade, running some
EMPs, or whatever (The Coven, as mentioned, is a good way to annoy combat
decks). If you really run into the problem of devoting too much space to
trying to survive combat decks, maybe the answer is to not bother trying to
survive them, switch the focus over to putting more minions in play and ousting
as quickly as possible - pretend that your deck is a weenie deck.
As others have mentioned, the problem seems to be more that other players don't
like your deck(s). The easiest way to fix that is to play different decks. It
may be annoying to not be able to play !Malks or it may be annoying to have to
play a not normally good !Malk archetype by doing something like grafting a
bunch of combat disciplines onto them, but it may be less annoying than what
you are claiming is the current problem.
James Coupe
<X_Ze...@cox-internet.com> writes:
>You also forgot that Obedience can only be used against younger
>vampires. Also you would be breaking new ground by introducing a
>combat card that is dependent upon whose turn it is, there is no such
>combat card in existance so this would be a new mechanic to be
>playtested. Better to make it a reaction card.
Minor nitpick: Not entirely true. Superior Rapid Thought basically says
"If you're the acting vampire" and no, it's not exactly whose turn it is
(Madness Network), but it's not far off. And Obedience can be played
under a Madness Network even if it's your turn, anyway.
(This is not meant to detract from the general thrust of the argument.)
James Coupe
>> Dodges can save your butt, but every dodge you put in could be spent
>> better.
>
>Surely. That's why better protection cards are needed.
No, that's simply not true.
You perceive (!)Malks having a weaker array of combat defence compared
to some other clans as a hole that needs to be filled. It's not. It's
a "defect" in the typical[0] make-up of the clan, like all clans have
defects.
The (!)Toreador have very poor stealth options, the (!)Ventrue have
largely very poor offensive combat options, the (!)Gangrel have largely
very poor political options. Sure, there are a few cute cards lurking
around for each of them (Carnivale, Island of Yiaros, City Gangrel
Connections, say). But they're things that each clan is weak at.
No clan is supposed to have access to everything, across the board.
[0] There are quite a few Malk and !Malk vampires who have many good
options in combat - but in a typical deck using
Malk/!Malk/Obf/Aus/Dem/Dom cards, they won't turn up so often.
James Coupe
>Rush, Flash and Thrown Sewer Lid, for instance.
Possibly a poor choice from the opponent. Of course, they might *want*
to "waste" some cards in order to get hand cycling going.
However, when you suspect a metric buttload of Majesty from an opponent,
holding back on the first strike if you have to use strike cards is a
perfectly reasonable idea. Then, since 3R damage is probably going to
be insufficient for such a deck to get reliable deaths, you'll want to
be including additional strikes. Blur is good - 2 strikes. Pursuit
isn't bad either, if you're doing a flung junk deck since it gives you
the option of the maneuver too. Then you throw your metric buttload of
junk at them.
Similarly, a deck with aggravated damage will usually wait to play the
damage-changer until after the strike - Claws of the Dead, Chiropteran
etc. Or play with a card like Talons of the Dead where you have to pay
all the time.
Decks which have to do something with a Strike card on the single strike
and be declaring it first (e.g. acting, not blocking) are truly going to
waste lots of cards like that, if played well.
Peter D Bakija
> But what if I'm tired of S&B and want to play something else?
-Stealth vote--use Malk Justicar and Cryptic Rider to force votes through.
Stealth to avoid getting blocked. Obf and Dem combat defense.
-Madness Network OOT Rotschreck combat. A viable combat archetype that works
reasonably well.
-Lucian blocks everything with 2nd Traditions and a billion Obediences.
Smiling Jack kills the table, no one can remove him.
-Old School Malkavian Disguised Flamethrower/Thoughts Betrayed Rush. Kind of
klunky, but certainly viable.
And so on. The Malks are *really* good at one particular thing (S+B). They
are reasonably good at a lot of other things--you just need to be creative.
What they aren't good at, however, is plain old Rush combat. Which is good,
really.
> !Malks
> have brilliant Sibyl's Tongue card, but they cannot use it effectively
> since it requires time, and they are likely to be beaten meanwhile.
Beaten by what? They have intercept and bleed bounce. They can do anything
with Intercept and Bleed Bounce.
> !Malks have some brilliant vamps for a voting deck (Korah, Marie
> Faucigny, General Perfidio Dios), but the deck is likely to fail for
> the same reason. Both decks cannot run 30 card just for "casual combat
> protection".
You don't need 30 cards for "casual co,mbat protection". You need a bunch of
dual purpose cards (Swallowed/Deny) and a dozen focused combat cards (Behind
You/Gemini's Mirror). Maybe some Zip Guns if you are feeling tricky. If you
can't commit 12-16 cards to combat defense, you clearly aren't afraid of
combat enough.
> Don't you think that a single clan strategy makes the game weak and
> dull?
Nope. Again, they are very good at one particular thing, but certainly can
be viable in many, many other areas with some gumption. They have Obfuscate,
so they don't get blocked, and when they do, they have some combat defense.
Auspex to defend themselves and bounce bleeds. Dementation can bleed a lot.
Or it can provide back up in weird ways to other strategies.
> To my mind, making the whole clan extremely weak in combat hurts
> the game.
Why? And how? Not everyone can be good at everything. The Nosferatu are
really good at combat, but not much else. The Gangrel are really good at
blocking things, and not much else. All clans have strengths and weaknesses
inherrent to their basic discipline set. The Malkavians are no different.
And shouldn't be.
Peter D Bakija
> Surely. That's why better protection cards are needed.
You don't *need* better protection cards. They are already there. The
Malkavians have at their disposal:
-Behind You (manuver/dodge)
-Gemini's Mirror (manuver dodge/strike immunity)
-Swallowed by the Night (manuver)
-Deny (press)
-Disguised Weapon/Guns (manuvers and damage)
-Zip Gun (manuvers and damage)
-Coma (brutal surprise offense)
-Read Intentions (dodge)
-Dodge (dodge)
If you are using old school Malkavians, they have:
-Obediance (avoid combat all together)
-Thoughts Betrayed (avoid strike cards all together)
As well as multiple other, fringier cards if needed.
I'm not seing where the Malkavians are in any way lacking in combat
defense--you just need to be willing to use it.
The problem, however, is a meta problem: how much combat defense is
appropriate? If you put in too much and don't sit near combat, you choke on
defense. If you don't put in enough and sit next to Rush, you are hosed.
Every deck has similar questions (I'm making a Rush deck--how many manuvers
do I put in? Too many and no manuvering opposition, and I choke. Too few and
some manuvering opposition, and I'm hosed. And so on...)
But that you have to measure how much combat defense to go into a Malk deck
as you don't know what you are going to be up against isn't a problem. That
is simply how the game is structured.
James Coupe
<ja...@zephyr.org.uk> writes:
>Decks which have to do something with a Strike card on the single strike
>and be declaring it first (e.g. acting, not blocking) are truly going to
>waste lots of cards like that, if played well.
Gurgle. That'll teach me to not to re-read something properly when I
edit it.
Assume it started with the word "Only".
Ector
> In message <d6c82c73.04110...@posting.google.com>, Ector
> <Ec...@mail.ru> writes:
> >jja....@hccnet.nl (Darky) wrote in message news:<93148a54.04110...@posting.google.com>...
> >> Maneuvers double as stealth. Dodges, at best, double as maneuvers.
> >> Dodges can save your butt, but every dodge you put in could be spent
> >> better.
> >
> >Surely. That's why better protection cards are needed.
>
> No, that's simply not true.
>
> You perceive (!)Malks having a weaker array of combat defence compared
> to some other clans as a hole that needs to be filled. It's not. It's
> a "defect" in the typical[0] make-up of the clan, like all clans have
> defects.
Then the defect is too serious. No clan can avoid combat, and that's
right. If that would be possible, it would decrease interaction
between players. If a clan cannot survive in combat, then it cannot
afford blocking or be blocked... Generally, it's impossible to avoid
combat.
> The (!)Toreador have very poor stealth options, the (!)Ventrue have
> largely very poor offensive combat options, the (!)Gangrel have largely
> very poor political options. Sure, there are a few cute cards lurking
> around for each of them (Carnivale, Island of Yiaros, City Gangrel
> Connections, say). But they're things that each clan is weak at.
>
> No clan is supposed to have access to everything, across the board.
These weaknesses are totally different. One can make good decks
without aggressive combat, without voting or without stealth (BTW,
!Toreadors can use Jost Werner and Jessica (adv) to play political
actions at +2 stealth, which is quite good for "non-stealth" clan, I
suppose). But the clan without any serious combat abilities is going
to extinction.
> [0] There are quite a few Malk and !Malk vampires who have many good
> options in combat - but in a typical deck using
> Malk/!Malk/Obf/Aus/Dem/Dom cards, they won't turn up so often.
Obviously, they are not enough. And this effectively limits !Malkavian
options to S&B decks.
Ector
Ector
> Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote in message news:<d6c82c73.04110...@posting.google.com>...
> > jja....@hccnet.nl (Darky) wrote in message news:<93148a54.04110...@posting.google.com>...
> > > Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote in message news:<d6c82c73.04110...@posting.google.com>...
> > > > jja....@hccnet.nl (Darky) wrote in message news:<93148a54.04110...@posting.google.com>...
> > > >
> > > > Some combat decks function at any distance. And Dodge can save your
> > > > butt in many situations.
> > >
> > > Maneuvers double as stealth. Dodges, at best, double as maneuvers.
> > > Dodges can save your butt, but every dodge you put in could be spent
> > > better.
> >
> > Surely. That's why better protection cards are needed.
>
> No, that's why you're better off including swallowed by the night, and
> maybe a zip gun or IR goggles or something.
OK. And if my opponent can fight at any distance, I should pack my
cards, right?
> > > > > > > Hungry coyote is a good way to survive combat decks as well. (rescue
> > > > > > > costs 2 actions and net 0 blood) Hunting is a good way to survive.
> > > > > > > The Coven is in the same category.
> <snip>
> > > When beast does torporize him, rescuing, then hunting, will cost you
> > > less.
> >
> > Well, at least my resqued vampire will have 2 bllod to resque his
> > resquer on the next turn, right?
>
> Indeed.
Quite a good strategy for any deck, indeed :)
> > > > Then I really can't understand why you consider Run Away overpowered
> > > > (a virtual combat ends)? Any long-range combat deck would laugh at the
> > > > card. I only think that this card would raise chances of non-IG combat
> > > > strategies.
> > >
> > > I kinda like close range combat without IG.
> >
> > I see. You should really hate Cailean, Sniper Rifle and Shadow Step
> > then, as well as all weapons with inbuilt maneuvers. Why not include
> > some long-range strikes, or weapons instead of spiting on the
> > relatively weak cards like Run Away? BTW, how do you deal with S:CE
> > without Grapples?
>
> Getting into combat a lot. Toolbox decks dont need something to trump
> S:CE.
> Cailean is rare and a 10cap. Sniper rifle needs can't be used
> offensively. Shadow step costs 2 blood. All of those can be countered
> by a dodge, as they're usually used by decks built to do combat. Run
> away like mad is just combat defense, and to strong at that.
Cailean is Sabbat War Uncommon, and he is in Nosferatu antitribu
starter :)
Why the defensive Sniper Rifle is OK to you, and the defensive Run
Away isn't?
If you think that S&B are overpowered, let's fix them, not the whole
discipline or the whole clan!
> > > > Frankly, I don't see any "brokenness" in Run Away Like a Mad, except
> > > > for the fear of making stealth & bleed decks stronger.
> > >
> > > It's broken because it's a dem card.
> >
> > Dementation is bad, I see :) BAN Kindred Spirits! BAN Eyes of Chaos!
> > Looks like I propose these cards too early. With Channel 10,
> > stealth-bleed decks will be seriously dampened, and, maybe, then
> > people won't fear them anymore...
>
> No dementation isn't bad. Run away like mad would make it bad. Giving
> a serious bleed modifier to, say, obfuscate, would make obfuscate bad
> as well.
> Channel 10 isn't as hot as you might think.
Well, I played S&B a lot. If I'm bleeding with the first vamp,
spending a stealth card to pass and then I still need +2 stealth for
the second one, I'm going to be caught regularly. S&B simply cannot
pack too many stealth cards to overcome permanent +2 intercept.
> > > > Well, if you are looking for superior Dominate, you may be
> > > > right, but even dom/OBF vampire can bleed for 3 with Govern the
> > > > Unaligned or Conditioning. And you can find 5-capacity dom/OBF
> > > > vampires, like Count Ormonde or Zebulon. Most Malkavian bleeders are
> > > > 5-7 capacity as well, since basic Dementation allows bleeding only for
> > > > two.
> > >
> > > I'm saying combat-defense based on obedience needs large capacity.
> > > 5caps with defense based on obedience is wasting space.
> >
> > Here's rough sketch of my Dom/Obf voting/bleeding deck (crypt only):
> >
> > Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 21, Max: 31, Avg: 6,67)
> > ----------------------------------------------
> > 3 Gratiano DOM obf OBT pot 8, Lasombra:2, Priscus
> > 1 Mariel aus DOM OBF tha 7, Malkavian:1
> > 2 Greger Anderssen AUS dom OBF pro 7, Malkavian:2, Prince
> > 2 Gilbert Duane AUS DOM OBF 7, Malkavian:1, Prince
> > 1 Ozmo AUS dom obf 6, Malkavian:1
> > 1 Zebulon aus dom OBF pro 5, Malkavian:1
> > 1 Count Ormonde dom OBF pre ser 5, Followers of Set:2
> > 1 Badr al-Budur cel dom OBF qui 5, Assamite:2
> > ----------------------------------------------
> >
> > The answer is simple: Gratiano can block the rush and play Obedience.
> > Notice that this deck can use both Elysium: the Arboretum and Purchase
> > Pact.
>
> Go ahead and see how it does.
What do you mean? I tried this, and it really works.
> > Now, please, stop pleading that Dementation is evil since it allows
> > S&B decks.
>
> Where did I say dementation is evil since it allows S&B decks? I said
> it doesn't need rather extreme combat defense like run away like mad,
> because it would unbalance S&B decks even further.
Again, if you think that S&B needs to be fixed - just propose
something to fix it. No need for "banning" the whole clan just in fear
of making S&B stronger.
> > > > Coma is much worse than Madman's Fury. But at least you aren't calling
> > > > this card overpowered... With Madman's Fury, Escaped Mental Patients,
> > > > Ivory Bows and Rotschrecks, one can build dangeous enough combat
> > > > module.
> > >
> > > Coma's good enough for a bleed discipline. It doesn't need this card.
> >
> > Looks like you didn't read my review of Coma... But I cannot say more
> > than I said before: this card is useless without support. Currently
> > it's used only as a "fear card", as you can easily discover in
> > Lasombra's Tournament-Winning Decks archive. There are NO decks having
> > more than 3 Coma.
>
> And this is bad why?
If Coma would be good, it would be used in large quantities,
especially by the clan that haven't too many good combat cards.
> > > > Again, you aren't looking from the designer's perspective. Neighter
> > > > deck can completely avoid combat in this game, and that's right!
> > > > Combat is the primary source of players' interaction. If stealth-bleed
> > > > is too powerful, then designer should create new cards against it
> > > > (BTW, did you see Channel 10?). If the rush decks oust too slowly,
> > > > they get Dragonbound, and so on. Other deck types will get their tools
> > > > against S&B, and S&B should get its tools against combat decks.
> > >
> > > If S&B is still one of the strongest archetypes, it shouldn't get
> > > radical improvements. Your card is just too strong for dem to have.
> > > "Look at it from a designer's perspective".
> >
> > Why Madman's Fury is too strong?
>
> It isn't, it's just not needed.
Why do you think so? Did you play Malks, and how long did you play
them?
> > And why Dementation is doomed to be
> > only "a bleed discipline" and nothing more?
>
> It already definately isnt.
Speaking about tournament decks, it is. In tournaments there are only
stealth & bleed Dementation cards. And just a few Coma...
> > Dominate is the best bleed
> > discipline in the game, but is it limited to bleed?
>
> I'd say dem rivals dom as bleed discipline. DOM is usually perceived
> to be too strong. DEM would be too if your run away like mad would be
> introduced.
"Too strong" looks like a personal judgement. What is "strong enough",
what is "too weak", and what is "too strong" for the game? DOM offers
much stronger bleed than DEM, and even with combat protection DEM
would never be as powerful.
Moreover, protection cards like Run Away are going to replace some
bleed modifiers...
Ector
Peter D Bakija
> Then the defect is too serious. No clan can avoid combat, and that's
> right. If that would be possible, it would decrease interaction
> between players. If a clan cannot survive in combat, then it cannot
> afford blocking or be blocked... Generally, it's impossible to avoid
> combat.
Right. So you need to use combat defense if you want to survive combat.
Luckily, the Malkavians have access to a great deal of reliable combat
defense. Keep in mind, that in terms of "winning" (in a strategic sense)
combat strategies, the be all and end all, still, is Immortal Grapple based
Potence (as it is the most reliable). So in reality, the combat you are most
likely to run into in competition is IG Potence (as other types of combat,
really, are a lot harder to win with, as they lack reliable anti-S:CE
technology). Yeah, other combat shows up (ranged/Psyche! based combat;
Assamite kinda stuff; whatever), but as you are most likely to see what
actually can win games, the real threat to Malkavian S+B is Immortal Grapple
based close range IG combat. What foils IG Potence combat? Manuvers.
Luckily, the Malkavians have access to countless manuvers. Swallowed by the
Night, Behind You, Gemini's Mirror, Fake Out, High Ground, and as a last
resort, Zip Gun give the Malkavians virtually *endless* manuvers to avoid
getting IGed. So without much work, you can really cut a hole in the ability
of the most successful combat archetype to stop you.
> These weaknesses are totally different.
I'm not seeing how.
> But the clan without any serious combat abilities is going
> to extinction.
???
What are you even talking about? The Malkavians/! Malkavians are, still, one
of the most successful clans in the game. Even this far into the evolution
of the game, with specific anti S+B technology increases (see: Archon
Investigation, Protected Resources) as well as theoretical strategy advances
(see: Rush combat as a viable, winning strategy), the Malkavians win all the
time. Still. 'cause they are simple and effective. What keeps them in check
is their vulnerability to combat. And even their vulnerability to combat is,
given enough determination, circumvented with enough defensive technology in
a S+B deck (manuvers and dodges from Swallowed, Behind You, Gemini's Mirror
and Zip Guns; presses from Deny or whatever; Secure Haven and Secret Passage
to avoid getting Rushed; Obediance if you are an old school Malkavian;
Humanitas and Catacombs to rescue from torpor for reduced cost or for free).
The Malkavians deal with combat just fine as it is. They just have to want
to.
Peter D Bakija
> Obviously, they are not enough. And this effectively limits !Malkavian
> options to S&B decks.
Incorrect. Those are the easiest decks to build out of them, sure. But there
are plenty of other Malkavian based decks that can do just fine in all
environments (stealth vote, Obediance intercept w/Smiling Jack; OOT
Rotschreck Rush; whatever).
J
> > bleed and these two clans have limited access to enhanced bleed (i.e.
> > they suck in tournament evironment, sorry Legbiter).
>
> You are completely wrong here, but Curevei already answered you. Tier
> of Souls and Army of Rats are permanent bleed-enhancers, as are
> retainers like Tasha Morgan.
Army of Rats is _not_ a permanant bleed enhancer. Army of Rats has
nothing to do with bleed.
As for Gangrel bleed that's actually big (for a gangrel), without
freak drives.
Action 1 = Go get Tier of Souls (need ANI).
Action 2 = Go get Tasha Morgan
Action 3 = Bleed with Computer Hack for 4
3 actions to bleed for 4 is poor deck efficiency. If you include
Freak Drives, than it is incredibly card (and blood) intensive, and
will get moreso if you get into any combats. Gangrel are not a
bleeding clan. They are an intercept or combat clan. Bleeding
efficiently with them is difficult at best.
A few minor points -
There are 256 vampires in the game with Obfuscate.
There are 112 vampires in the game with Protean.
There are 72 vampires in the game with Obfuscate and Dominate.
There are 24 vampires in the game with Protean and Dominate.
There are 40 vampires in the game with Obfuscate and Dementation.
There are 4 vampires in the game with Protean and Dementation.
(These stats do not include Roger Farnsworth).
--> J
Peter D Bakija
> OK. And if my opponent can fight at any distance, I should pack my
> cards, right?
Opponents *can't* fight at any distance, and win with any reliability. You
either pick close range (Immortal Grapple or something) or long range
(Assamites of flung junk). Combat decks that can actually win tournaments,
rather than just act as spoliers, need consistiency. Otherwise, they don't
win. So if you are going to a tournament, it is reasonable to expect that
your opponent, if a combat deck, is going to be consistient.
Yeah, sometimes you pick all "go to long range" defense and end up fighting
someone with an Assault Rifle. It happens. Every deck runs into a total
hoser at some point. But it doesn't happen much. So if you pick, say,
cycleable range defense for a Malkavian deck (Swalloweds and whatever), most
of the combat you run into will be stimied. Sometimes, sure, you'll lose.
But that is always a possibility.
Ector
> >If Kindred Spirits S&B is the best deck indeed, then Kindred Spirits
> >should be banned.
>
> I may suggest that cards get banned all of the time, but banning something
> because it's the best isn't a good reason because, obviously, something is
> always best. Banning the best only makes sense when it opens up more
> possibilities (of some factor).
in the game.
> I don't see much RPS in multiplayer play. And, I'd contend that rush is good
> for S&B in the grand scheme of things. As there's really not much point to my
> post unless I expand upon this -
>
> S&B has a much easier time ousting rush decks than it does certain archetypes.
> Weenie Auspex, decks that build up a massive board position like certain P/J
> decks that run Progeny or heavy permanent decks, and the like are horrendous
> for S&B to deal with unless they can get to them fast enough or get help from
> another player. OTOH, rush is quite suited for pounding the crap out of these
> decks, giving anyone a chance to oust them.
To my mind, the less percent of victory is determined by seating order
the better. There isn't any fun in playing against a predator that you
cannot survive. And there isn't much joy in playing against a prey
that cannot do anything against you. IMHO, each deck archetype should
have access to some tools against each other archetype.
> Plus, outside of a few archetypes, S&B has the most deckspace to play with.
> Rush? Has to expend card slots making sure it nukes minions. Vote? Has to
> run votes to oust, have ways of getting past casual intercept, force through
> votes. B&B? Has to have enough combat for the threat, enough bleed for the
> threat, and enough of something to survive a predator.
I don't agree with this, since S&B actually has very little free
space. By default, intercept beats stealth, so S&B should include a
lot of stealth cards. Bleed cards also require a lot of space, as
there are no Conditionings based on Dementation. And defensive module
is also required... I'd say B&B have more deckspace, since it can just
use few permanent bleed modifier like Pulse of the Canaille or small
bloating/bleeding module with Governs and Conditionings.
> BTW, not every S&B deck is going to be as combat fragile as a !Malk one will
> tend to be. For instance, Tzimisce S&B isn't nearly as good at the S or the > B, but it can cause all sorts of problems for combat decks.
Wow!!! I'm trying to say the same in several discussions, but nobody
hears me! Surely, Tzimisce S&B can fight very well, and there is
Lasombra S&B, Dom/Obf S&B etc., but these people still argue that
adding some defensive cards like Run Aray like a Mad would make S&B
overpowered! :)
Yours,
Ector
Ector
> > blood, and it completely cancels the combat. It can be played only on
> > someone else's turn, but playing Run Away when you are caught isn't
> > very beneficial anyway, as most intercept decks can strike at long
> > distance. Run Away also costs 1 blood. Looks like the card is properly
> > balanced (at least, for me). You can add "Only usable in combat with
> > acting vampire" to disable its usage on your turn and against allies,
> > if you think that's crucial.
>
> You also forgot that Obedience can only be used against younger
> vampires. Also you would be breaking new ground by introducing a
> combat card that is dependent upon whose turn it is, there is no such
> combat card in existance so this would be a new mechanic to be
> playtested. Better to make it a reaction card.
Well, you may be right. I just wanted a card for defense, especially
against rushes. Nevertheless, I still don't consider the current text
"overpowered".
> >> Okay so you agree with me. They are totally different and not
> >> comparable to Run Away Like Mad. Your points against it are very
> >> weak. Ventrue being protected from Brujah is false, Ventrue get
> >> protection from Brujah, once per turn then it is dirt nap city.
> >
> > Is the ability weak? Each Run Away offers limited protection for a
> > single combat, and it costs 1 blood. Ventrue can get good protection
> > from all their disciplines, and one Elysuim allows them to have, say,
> > 10 protection cards instead of 15.
>
> Is what ability weak? Your line of logic trying to connect Elysium to
> Run Away Like Mad is tenuous at best. Elysium is unique and if you
> put 10 of them in your deck you are going to lose. You are trying to
> compare a combat card to a master card. Combat Cards have a high
> cycle rate and Master Cards have a low cycle rate( 1 per turn)
Combat cards have a high cycle rate only in a combat deck! And cards
like Run Away, specifically designed to avoid combat, are likely to
hang on your hand if nobody rushes you.
>
> Boo Hoo! Poor !Malks with their 9 titles and superior AUS on all of
> them can't vote (hint, hint Telepathic Vote Counting).
Thanks for a useful hint :) Voting is the theme of my next Newsletter,
so I already know about Telepathic Vote Counting :) I mean their
vampires are too fragile to build a good voting deck, alas...
> > What are you playing, then? Most decks can include bleed bounce, bleed
> > reduction, Protected Resources and Archon Investigation.
>
> My decks suck. I post them here regularly.
My decks are probably even worse. A week ago I created Ravnos
intercept deck based on Mass Reality without any stealth :) It was
really funny for the whole table except for me :)
> > Statistics is a great thing... The last splash of Malk/!Malk
> > dementation-based S&B tournament-winning decks was in January. From
> > February, 1st till now you will find only THREE such decks in the
> > archive, along with nearly 80 other decks. Looks like people learned
> > ways to deal with S&B even WITHOUT rushing them.
>
> People have been dealing with S&B for almost 10 years now. Rush is
> just one of many counter-strategies to S&B.
Do you really like the "counter-strategy" concept? I hate it. Some
deck are always better against the others, but rush predator that
easily destroys S&B prey looks horrible for me... as well as S&B
predator killing poor deck without bounce :) Each deck archetype
should have some tools against other archetypes.
> > There are much more devastating openings with a goldfish. What are the
> > chances to get it, though?
>
> Name 1 play with a 1 cap that gains you 1 pool, gains the edge,
> inflicts 4 pool damage on your prey at stealth that you can do on
> round 2. You can't do it. It doesn't exist.
Oh my... What are the chances of inflicting 4 damage? 1 percent, or
less?
> > Yeah, you're a good joker. Where do you see Dem weenies?
>
> 9 vampires with at least inferior dem at capacity 4 or less.
> 18 vampires with at least inferior dem at capacity 5 or less
> 4 vampires with Superior DEM at capacity 5 or less.
>
> Just look at
> > the tournament-winning decks archive. Last version of 'Fast Eddie' (by
> > Marco Saari) has average capacity of 4.92! And you can find true
> > weenie deck based on Presence with average capacity of 2.67.
> > I'm tired of your unfounded "goals", so let's skip this entirely.
>
> You are the one using biased examples. Stick to the facts. Weenie
> Dem is at least if not more dangerous than weenie Pre.
Look, what vamps count as "weenies" for you? Does 4-capacity count?
What about 5-capacity? Six-capacity vamps usually have all clan
disciplines at superior... are they "weenies" for you? :)
IMHO, "weenies" end at 4 capacity. Since there are no vamps with 4 or
less capacity and superior Dementation (except for infernal Midget),
and inferior Dementation allows bleeding only for two without stealth,
there are NO such thing as Dementation weenies for me.
> > Now what? You should pack maneuvers anyway if you're going to fight at
> > long range. And even if you won't shoot first combat, this doesn't
> > mean much unless you are going to be torporized.
>
> Again, you are totally missing the point. Sniper Rifle only works
> half the time, when you are blocking. Run Away Like Mad works all the
> time.
Well, maybe the card should be prohibited on your turn...
> >> Whether 2 pool once is better than 1 blood repeatedly is just not
> >> right. I'll pay one blood all day long rather than 2 pool, see
> >> infernal arguemnents if you want to see how that works.
> >>
> > I'd see the "infernal arguments" if you'd provide a link. But, IMHO,
> > blood can eventually be converted to pool via Blood Dolls, Minion Taps
> > etc.
>
> If you don't understand how 2 POOL is more than 1 BLOOD than it just
> isn't worth arguing.
2 Pool is more than 1 blood, but less than 10 blood (usually). If
somebody is going to use Run Away, he's going to use 10, not one.
> Obtenebration can use Arms of the
> > Abyss + Entombment to obtain FAR MORE RELIABLE way to torporize a
> > vampire for 2 blood AND evading being torporized themselves. Now
> > please find a way to BURN a vampire in combat that would require less
> > than 3 cards...
>
> Coma, Amaranth. 2 cards
> Basilia Amaranth 1 cards
> Igo diablerizes Arika 0 cards
>
> Any more hoops I can jump through?
Very, very funny indeed :) Did I mentioned diablerie? Are you going to
lose your vampire to blood hunt? How many Amaranths and Coms are you
going to use? What a fearful combat strategy for poor !Malks!!! BTW,
you forgot to tell me who torporized Arika :)
Well, what about reliable and playable ways to burn vampires, like
Black Metamorphosis (providing press) + Shadow Step + Ahriman's
Demesne?
> > Well, and I completely disagree with the whole Rock-Paper-Scissors
> > situation. It makes the game less interesting than it could be.
> > Results of any game depend on seating order too heavily...
>
> You should play something other than !Malks if everyone is beating you
> to death.
Right! So, not the deck archetype is bad, but the whole clan is bad!
Then, let's try to make it better :)
>
> > It would be hard enough to make a card usable by !Malks but not usable
> > by S&B, but it can be done.
> > What about this:
> >
> > Cardname: Mental Clinic
> > Cardtype: Master - Unique location
> > Cost: 2 pool
> > Clan: Malkavian antitribu
> > Card Text: Put this card in play. You may tap this card before range
> > is determined to end combat involving your vampire and the acting
> > vampire. Burn this card if a minion you control successfully bleeds.
>
> This seems much more reasonable.
I simply can't believe my eyes :) Did you say "reasonable"?
Let's show it to LSJ as fast as possible :)
> > Surely, I possess the superior Dementation :) But I still don't agree
> > that ANY deck in the game SHOULD be as severely limited in combat
> > defense. BTW, looks like you're going to write Brujah newsletters :)
> > Aren't you?
>
> these are truely rantings from a Madman's Quill FYI, all decks have
> access to combat defense they are Dodge, Fake Out and Zip Gun.
Yes, as well as all decks have access to increased bleed in Computer
Hacking.
All these aren't good enough... but there aren't nothing else anyway
:)
> I write the Gargoyle Newsletter and I used to write the Followers of
> Set Newsletter. I post decks regularly. I enjoy other newsletters,
> especially ones with hypothetical cards like yours. Keep it up. :)
>
Wow, so you are the stone man! Your newsletters are wonderful. I'll
try to invent some new cards in the next newsletter...
Ector
Snapcase
> But what if I'm tired of S&B and want to play something else?
There's always the "play a different clan"...
> Don't you think that a single clan strategy makes the game weak and
> dull? To my mind, making the whole clan extremely weak in combat hurts
> the game.
There are 35 clans (34 if you don't count the caitiff). Having some of
them being specialized in a certain thing doesn't make the game boring,
it makes it interesting. If you want to branch out into combat (and I
mean hardcore combat), the Assamites would love to welcome another
sucke..*cough* *hack*... I mean "initiate" into the fold.
> If you think that combat protection would make S&B too
> strong, then other clans should get some cards against it (someone
> mentioned disciplineless bounce, for instance)
Really the problem is that S&B seems to be more consistent at winning
than combat; there's already some potential need for better defense
against it.
--
-Snapcase
Peter D Bakija
> And there isn't much joy in playing against a prey
> that cannot do anything against you. IMHO, each deck archetype should
> have access to some tools against each other archetype.
It is a trade off. Some people really like "toolboxy" decks--they can
respond to any threat that comes up. Toolbox decks can do very well. People
win with them all the time.
On the other hand, some folks like very focused decks--decks that do one
thing and one thing only, but they do it very well. These decks do very well
too, but if they run into their polar opposite, they tend to die quickly,
where the toolboxy decks make a much better game of it, but are less likely
to do really well a lot.
You have choices. One of them is "toolbox" vs "focused". The choice is your
to make.
Peter D Bakija
> I don't agree with this, since S&B actually has very little free space.
Incorrect.
> By default, intercept beats stealth
Incorrect.
> so S&B should include a lot of stealth cards.
Also incorrect. One of the subtle aspects of building a successful S+B deck
(as opposed to just throwig together 35 bleed cards, 35 stealth cards, and
20 master cards) is deciding how much stealth to actually use. A great deal
of the time, if your prey doesn't include significant intercept as a
defense, they won't try and block you at all, as it just makes your deck
work better, as you get to cycle stealth. If I have a deck with no access to
any significant intercept, I am going to completely ignore you, block wise.
I'll let you bleed me (assuming I have other defenses for bleeds, like Rush,
Bounce, or Bloat) and I won't try to block. Ever. You can't cycle stealth
cards. They clog up your hand. You jam on stealth and stop drawing into
bleed cards. Soon, you just bleed mr for 1 a lot. So including "a lot" of
stealth cards may very well make you lose. So you need to decide.
> Bleed cards also require a lot of space, as
> there are no Conditionings based on Dementation.
Sure. But regular bleeds of 4 (DEM with Kindred and whatever the +2 DEM
bleed is) are really all you need. It doesn't matter, really, that you can't
bleed for 6 per action--4 is usually enough if your deck is working.
Add in that two basic combat defense cards for the Malkavians--Swallowed by
the Night and Deny--double as stealth cards. So including them doesn't take
away from your main deck strategy anyway.
Peter D Bakija
> Well, you may be right. I just wanted a card for defense, especially against
rushes.
Hows about:
Swallowed by the Night
Deny
Gemini's Mirror
Behind You
Fake Out
High Ground
Dodge
Disguised Weapons
Zip Gun
Coma, if you feel proactive
Obedience if you are old school
Voice of Madness (the DEM Obedience?)
Secure Haven
Secret Passage
Direct Intervention
Sudden Reversal (for the Haven Uncovered)
Humanitas and Catacombs to get out of torpor free
Sleep Unseen
The cards already exist.
Dasein
> are plenty of other Malkavian based decks that can do just fine in all
> environments (stealth vote, Obediance intercept w/Smiling Jack; OOT
> Rotschreck Rush; whatever).
I agree.
My play group has apparently (it's been a couple of weeks since I've
played) recently been the victim of some guy's new Coma / Amaranth /
titled Malks deck. Burnt three vampires in the first few turns of the
game.
Ector
> Ector wrote:
>
> > Well, you may be right. I just wanted a card for defense, especially against
> rushes.
>
> Hows about:
>
> Swallowed by the Night
> Deny
> Gemini's Mirror
> Behind You
> Fake Out
> High Ground
> Dodge
> Disguised Weapons
> Zip Gun
> Coma, if you feel proactive
> Obedience if you are old school
> Voice of Madness (the DEM Obedience?)
> Secure Haven
> Secret Passage
> Direct Intervention
> Sudden Reversal (for the Haven Uncovered)
> Humanitas and Catacombs to get out of torpor free
> Sleep Unseen
>
> The cards already exist.
Thanks a lot for the list. I tried nearly all these cards except for
Direct Intervention, which I don't have, and Obedience, since I'm
writing about !Malks.
Gemini's Mirror was a single card that I missed prior to writing the
newsletter.
There are SOME cards for defense, but they aren't strong enough. None
can be compared to S:CE or even Run Away Like a Mad. So I have to use
much more cards for protection, which usually makes a deck pointless.
Yours,
Ector
Ector
> > Oh Dear! Look, Caitlin is 6, Soldat is 7, Sebastian Goulet is 8, and
> > only Hartmut Stover is 10. Then, Hartmut is going to "feed" you each
> > turn, and Sebastian Goulet can play Governs at superior.
>
> ok then play malk/!malk with presence, irrelevant.
It's really irrelevant... Since the only !Malks with superior presence
are Aristotle (cap.9, and not very good IMHO) and Alicia Barrows (cap.
9 and group 4). Camarilla Malks have more options.
> > > You're saying on the one hand that you want something for regular
> > > (!)malks without disciplines tacked on to survive combat, and on the
> > > other hand you're saying DOM/PRO decks are both good bleeders and have
> > > access to earthmeld.
> >
> > It's simple: since Malks/!Malks cannot get decent protection from
> > their clan disciplines, they are forced to seek protection elsewhere.
> > This results in bizarre designs like decks based on Rachel.
>
> which is also very very effective.
I didn't play the deck yet, but it doesn't seem very effective... at
least for now. Mid-cap S&B is much more effective, though Rachel is
far better protected. Other clans have much more effective decks with
out-clan disciplines. Just look at Omaya, for instance.
> > > Giving this card to dementation is like giving a +1/+2 bleed modifier
> > > to protean. Not balanced with what the discipline already does.
> >
> > I'd agree if you said "+1 bleed modifier". Personally I have nothing
> > against giving +1 bleed modifier to Protean.
>
> Your card definatly isn't just a +1 bleed modifier. it's comparable to
> a S:CE, and in some metagames definately better.
There are several misunderstandings here:
1). Run Away is only "comparable to S:CE", but it's not S:CE. It may
be better in some metagames, but generally it's much worse. Any
long-range combat will just thank you for wasting 1 blood. You can
treat Run Away as "bad S:CE", as well as Alacrity is a "bad stealth"
for Celerity.
2). +1/+2 bleed modifier is the best bleed modifier in the game (not
counting Conditioning, which is really overpowered).
So, Malks can have "bad S:CE", and Gangrels can have "bad bleed
modifier" like this:
CardName: Earth Bleed
Cardtype: action modifier
Cost: 1 blood
Only usable when a bleed action is announced.
<pro> : This action has -1 stealth and +1 bleed.
<PRO> : +1 bleed.
Ector
Ector
> Ector wrote:
>
> > And there isn't much joy in playing against a prey
> > that cannot do anything against you. IMHO, each deck archetype should
> > have access to some tools against each other archetype.
>
> It is a trade off. Some people really like "toolboxy" decks--they can
> respond to any threat that comes up. Toolbox decks can do very well. People
> win with them all the time.
>
> On the other hand, some folks like very focused decks--decks that do one
> thing and one thing only, but they do it very well. These decks do very well
> too, but if they run into their polar opposite, they tend to die quickly,
> where the toolboxy decks make a much better game of it, but are less likely
> to do really well a lot.
>
> You have choices. One of them is "toolbox" vs "focused". The choice is your
> to make.
I have no choice, since I simply have no *GOOD* tools against combat
decks.
Toolbox is playable only when its tools are effectively and versatile.
Cards that provide only maneuver, or only press, or only dodge, aren't
going to be "toolboxed". So, only combo cards (Deny & Swallowed) are
widely used.
Ector
Ector
> Ector also wrote:
>
> > I don't agree with this, since S&B actually has very little free space.
>
> Incorrect.
Correct. Just look at the tournament-winning S&B decks. Surely, you
should decide how much stealth do you want, but tournament decks
should be prepared for at least casual intercept (i.e. a vampire with
+1 intercept). If you face Carna, you'll have to provide +2 stealth
for each action. This will quickly deplete your stealth cards.
> > By default, intercept beats stealth
>
> Incorrect.
Well, it's obvious - zero intercept can block zero stealth. To sneak
past +1 intercept vampire, all your actions should be at +2 stealth.
> A great deal
> of the time, if your prey doesn't include significant intercept as a
> defense, they won't try and block you at all, as it just makes your deck
> work better, as you get to cycle stealth. If I have a deck with no access to
> any significant intercept, I am going to completely ignore you, block wise.
> I'll let you bleed me (assuming I have other defenses for bleeds, like Rush,
> Bounce, or Bloat) and I won't try to block. Ever. You can't cycle stealth
> cards. They clog up your hand. You jam on stealth and stop drawing into
> bleed cards. Soon, you just bleed mr for 1 a lot. So including "a lot" of
> stealth cards may very well make you lose. So you need to decide.
Surely, I know this. That's just another reason why combo-cards like
Deny or Swallowed are so precious: you can spend them in combat just
to cycle them. My S&B deck has two copies of The Barrens and I
regularly bluff pretending to have a lot of stealth when I have none.
Nevertheless, total number of stealth card (including combo cards)
should be high: at least 25-30 in any S&B deck.
> > Bleed cards also require a lot of space, as
> > there are no Conditionings based on Dementation.
>
> Sure. But regular bleeds of 4 (DEM with Kindred and whatever the +2 DEM
> bleed is) are really all you need. It doesn't matter, really, that you can't
> bleed for 6 per action--4 is usually enough if your deck is working.
Most Dementation-based S&B decks rarely bleed for 4. There are Archon
Investigations, and Confusion is more versatile than Eyes of Chaos.
AFAIK most Malkavian S&B deck have 12-18 Kindred Spirits, 5-6 Eyes of
Chaos and 6-9 Confusions.
> Add in that two basic combat defense cards for the Malkavians--Swallowed by
> the Night and Deny--double as stealth cards. So including them doesn't take
> away from your main deck strategy anyway.
They are great, but their defense is minimal.
Ector
Ector
>
> scary, if hard to pull off.
Derange is restricted to Camarilla Malks since it's usually played
with Malkavian Dementia.
> There are sufficient Princes/other titles lurking around, and a few
> vampires with Obf/Pre (Kite, Quentin, Evan) that a (!)Malkavian deck can
> have a good run at a stealth/vote deck, with a little bleed to fall back
> on. Stealth can always be thrown on vanilla bleed actions, if you have
> trouble. Combine with Derange to take out the opposing titles (this is
> why the clan cross-over works well) if you're feeling vindictive.
Again, most good vamps with Presence are Camarilla Malks.
Unfortunately, !Malks have much less options.
> Using those some vampires, you can also go for swarm
> bleed/Embrace/Progeny/Creation Rites/Psychic Veil hunt Tribute bloat.
> Pay for anything you please, that way.
I will post a deck with The Hungry Couyote/Creation Rites bloating,
but bloating isn't a winning strategy.
> If you feel like it, you also have a half decent option for the Fifth
> Tradition, or Entrenching. Since you're now (going along these lines)
> playing bigger vampires, stop looking at *just* the Malk/!Malk
> disciplines. Look at other disciplines they have, and what you can pick
> up from there. Big !Malks have a smattering of Protean which could
> combine with, say, Greger Andersen. Or a little pot. Perhaps the "tha"
> on Quira and Marie makes you think about something possible there.
> Cross-over with some appropriate vampires from other clans who have
> useful !Malk disciplines (for whatever your deck needs), you have a
> workable crypt starting up.
Did you see Craig Johnston's DEM/THA deck named "The Demented
Thaumaturgists"?
William Biltmore, Lazarus James, Fleurdumal and Marie. Unfortunately,
only Marie is !Malk there, and I think that even she should be
replaced with Persia :)
> Any vampires with good specials? Or with really good discipline
> spreads? Make a deck that focuses around them instead. Use other
> !Malks or Malks as cannon fodder around them.
Surely. BTW, did you see my Absimiliard's Army deck for Gehenna
Challenge?
Merged Sebastian Goulet + a bunch of Sibyl's Tongues and so on...
> Got any Fortitude? (Artemis and Theron, and some Malks too.) Go for a
> multi-action deck around them with Freak Drive - or perhaps your
> Thaumaturgy vampires might make Rutor's Hand worth playing in your
> view[0]. Derange, Bleed with expensive modifiers, Entrench to
> refill[1]. Throw in Change of Target and Spying Mission to avoid being
> bounced and ousting your grand-prey.
Well, I don't think that inferior Fortitude on two vamps can justify
building a deck with Fortutude, and Theron isn't especially good.
Thaumaturgy is possible, but for Camarilla Malks like William Biltmore
and Lazarus James.
> That's off the top of my head first thing in a morning. But Malks and
> !Malks don't need new cards to find things to do that aren't plain,
> simple S&B.
>
Thanks a lot for a good ideas. Surely, there are some POSSIBLE decks,
but are they tournament-worthy? Camarilla Malks have multiple options,
Sabbat Malks are just stealth-bleeders, at least for now.
Yours,
Ector
James Coupe
>There are SOME cards for defense,
Yup.
>but they aren't strong enough.
Then try some of the others out there? For instance, there's a lot of
weapons you could try. Ivory Bow will make a lot of people stop and
think (or at least try to draw exactly the right card to deal with it) -
which can give you the turn you need to oust them. You might find Flash
Grenade/Disguised (or Concealed) Weapon to be useful. Yes, that's
another card to be used. But, it can be used as a deterrent if you
equip it yourself and to tap the vampire. If it saves your vampire...
Smoke Grenade isn't bad, but the range requirement is hefty.
>None
>can be compared to S:CE or even Run Away Like a Mad. So I have to use
>much more cards for protection, which usually makes a deck pointless.
No. It makes building a deck a challenge.
No deck is "simple" to build. Sure, you can build Malk stealth and
bleed in about thirty seconds. But even a moderately tooled combat deck
(which can include any deck with combat) can take down a simplistic S&B
deck without even breaking a sweat.
Hence you have to find out what your weaknesses are and patch them. And
they *can* be patched. People have success with the Malks on a regular
basis. It's not like no-one's ever seen them do well. But they're not
no-brainers.
Deck building is a challenge just as much as making strategic choices in
the game is.
Ector
> Ector wrote:
>
> > But what if I'm tired of S&B and want to play something else?
>
> -Stealth vote--use Malk Justicar and Cryptic Rider to force votes through.
> Stealth to avoid getting blocked. Obf and Dem combat defense.
you'll need to push the first referendum first, and the only way to do
this is Telepathic Vote Counting. I'm going to devote the next
newsletter to !Malk politics...
> -Madness Network OOT Rotschreck combat. A viable combat archetype that works
> reasonably well.
Again only for Camarilla Malks.
> -Lucian blocks everything with 2nd Traditions and a billion Obediences.
> Smiling Jack kills the table, no one can remove him.
Again.
> -Old School Malkavian Disguised Flamethrower/Thoughts Betrayed Rush. Kind of
> klunky, but certainly viable.
Again.
> And so on. The Malks are *really* good at one particular thing (S+B). They
> are reasonably good at a lot of other things--you just need to be creative.
>
> What they aren't good at, however, is plain old Rush combat. Which is good,
> really.
You have proposed NO options for !Malks. Anti-Malks is a separate
clan, with 25 different vampires, some clan cards, and so on. It's not
a bloodline that should always be incorporated in other clan decks...
But even some bloodlines can denerate different successful decks.
> > !Malks
> > have brilliant Sibyl's Tongue card, but they cannot use it effectively
> > since it requires time, and they are likely to be beaten meanwhile.
>
> Beaten by what? They have intercept and bleed bounce. They can do anything
> with Intercept and Bleed Bounce.
Beaten by rush decks, of course. When I say "beaten", this usually
means beating :)
> > !Malks have some brilliant vamps for a voting deck (Korah, Marie
> > Faucigny, General Perfidio Dios), but the deck is likely to fail for
> > the same reason. Both decks cannot run 30 card just for "casual combat
> > protection".
>
> You don't need 30 cards for "casual co,mbat protection". You need a bunch of
> dual purpose cards (Swallowed/Deny) and a dozen focused combat cards (Behind
> You/Gemini's Mirror). Maybe some Zip Guns if you are feeling tricky. If you
> can't commit 12-16 cards to combat defense, you clearly aren't afraid of
> combat enough.
That won't be enough. If a have to spend 2-3 defensive cards each
combat, I'm going to run out of them, and then my vamps would be
torporized.
> > Don't you think that a single clan strategy makes the game weak and
> > dull?
>
> Nope. Again, they are very good at one particular thing, but certainly can
> be viable in many, many other areas with some gumption. They have Obfuscate,
> so they don't get blocked, and when they do, they have some combat defense.
> Auspex to defend themselves and bounce bleeds. Dementation can bleed a lot.
> Or it can provide back up in weird ways to other strategies.
What are that many, many other strategies? I'd like to abuse Sibyl's
Tongues in different ways, and I'd like to try voting. Both strategies
are going to be easily destroyed by rush decks, though :(
> > To my mind, making the whole clan extremely weak in combat hurts
> > the game.
>
> Why? And how? Not everyone can be good at everything. The Nosferatu are
> really good at combat, but not much else. The Gangrel are really good at
> blocking things, and not much else. All clans have strengths and weaknesses
> inherrent to their basic discipline set. The Malkavians are no different.
> And shouldn't be.
Are you kidding? You can build Nosferatu rush deck, Nosferatu
intercept deck, Nosferatu voting deck and Nosferatu Night Moves deck
(and I'm sure there are much more... didn't played Nosferatu, though).
You can make Gangrel intercept deck, Gangrel rush deck and Gangrel
swarm deck using multiple Earth Melds/Forms of Mist. There are NO
clans as limited as !Malks.
Surely, each clan has its own strengths and weaknesses, but sometimes
weaknesses are just too harsh. Inability to kill opposing vampires is
"normal" weakness, but inability do defend is too much.
Ector
James Coupe
>> Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote in message news:<d6c82c73.04110...@posting.google.com>...
>
>> > Oh Dear! Look, Caitlin is 6, Soldat is 7, Sebastian Goulet is 8, and
>> > only Hartmut Stover is 10. Then, Hartmut is going to "feed" you each
>> > turn, and Sebastian Goulet can play Governs at superior.
>>
>> ok then play malk/!malk with presence, irrelevant.
>
>It's really irrelevant... Since the only !Malks with superior presence
>are Aristotle (cap.9, and not very good IMHO) and Alicia Barrows (cap.
>9 and group 4). Camarilla Malks have more options.
On Aristotle, +1 stealth is extremely useful. The hand size bit can be
mostly ignored, though. It's kinda cool, though.
However, you're throwing their capacity around as though it's a
restriction. Again, it's just something you need to put effort into to
make it work. Big vampire decks are extremely powerful, but they need
some effort.
For instance, speed-wise, you can supplement them with weenie vampires
in your crypt. Five copies of a single vampire is generally considered
to be enough to make it very likely to draw it - fill the rest of your
12 with weenies.
If you're worried about going very big and being stomped over by a
weenie deck that gets off to a flying start, there are many speed up
options. Dreams of the Sphinx, Information Highway, Zillah's Valley are
good starters - again, the weenies can help.
If you're worried about running out of pool, you use Minion Tap. (Bear
in mind that the amount of blood a vampire has should not be a huge
deterrent to a moderately competent combat deck.) When you want more
blood on them, there are options. Giant's Blood is a popular one shot.
I quite like the look of Entrenching - Minion Tap + Entrenching is, say,
a 4 pool gain on a 9 cap. And with Aristotle, that's going off at +2
stealth.
If you want to get other vampires out, you can hit out with The Call.
Yes, you need younger vampires. But you should be able to find *one*
younger vampire. (Don't play all nines. Or if you do, play some
Discipline cards.) +1 stealth, 3 pool. It's not Govern the Unaligned,
but it's not bad - and you can be playing with some of the less
adventurous !Malks (or neo-Malks) if you want. Good for cross-overs
between the two these days, too, with the Dem.
Big vampires are a challenge to get working. But all decks are a
challenge to get working.
James Coupe
<gra...@hotmail.com> writes:
>As for Gangrel bleed that's actually big (for a gangrel), without
>freak drives.
>Action 1 = Go get Tier of Souls (need ANI).
>Action 2 = Go get Tasha Morgan
>Action 3 = Bleed with Computer Hack for 4
>
>3 actions to bleed for 4 is poor deck efficiency.
But, you hit 4 actions for 8 pool on the next action. (Equivalent to
four computer hacks.)
No, it's not necessarily the best deck decision in the world. But if
you're going for the long haul (using that vampire on a lot of bleeds)
and have a few actions to spare, it's not too bad, so long as you can
defend the vampire. Also, you can be building it up over time. Get a
Tier of Souls now. Bleed a few times. Tool up with Tasha later. You
don't have to have both to start, and you can occasionally grab a lull
in the game when someone's stuck, or you've just ousted someone and so
have a pool buffer you can afford to lie back on for a couple of
actions.
>If you include
>Freak Drives, than it is incredibly card (and blood) intensive, and
>will get moreso if you get into any combats. Gangrel are not a
>bleeding clan. They are an intercept or combat clan. Bleeding
>efficiently with them is difficult at best.
Some of the bigger vampires are actually very good - but here you have
to go out of clan for Dominate. Iliana, Faruq, Ingrid and Stanislava
give you some good options. There have been some very, very good decks
done with this.
Ector
> In article <d6c82c73.04110...@posting.google.com>, Ec...@mail.ru says...
>
> > But what if I'm tired of S&B and want to play something else?
>
> There's always the "play a different clan"...
and there are good cards I'd like to try. They only lack some combat
protection.
> > Don't you think that a single clan strategy makes the game weak and
> > dull? To my mind, making the whole clan extremely weak in combat hurts
> > the game.
>
> There are 35 clans (34 if you don't count the caitiff). Having some of
> them being specialized in a certain thing doesn't make the game boring,
> it makes it interesting. If you want to branch out into combat (and I
> mean hardcore combat), the Assamites would love to welcome another
> sucke..*cough* *hack*... I mean "initiate" into the fold.
There are NO clan as limited as !Malks. Even Assamites have at least
rush and intercept decks.
> > If you think that combat protection would make S&B too
> > strong, then other clans should get some cards against it (someone
> > mentioned disciplineless bounce, for instance)
>
> Really the problem is that S&B seems to be more consistent at winning
> than combat; there's already some potential need for better defense
> against it.
Why not? If a deck is too strong, other decks should get some defense
against it. Truly, I think that Channel 10 is going to hurt S&B a lot.
Ector
Ector
>
> > But what if I'm tired of S&B and want to play something else?
>
> There's always the "play a different clan"...
and there are good cards I'd like to try. They only lack some combat
protection.
> > dull? To my mind, making the whole clan extremely weak in combat hurts
> > the game.
>
> There are 35 clans (34 if you don't count the caitiff). Having some of
> them being specialized in a certain thing doesn't make the game boring,
> it makes it interesting. If you want to branch out into combat (and I
> mean hardcore combat), the Assamites would love to welcome another
> sucke..*cough* *hack*... I mean "initiate" into the fold.
There are NO clan as limited as !Malks. Even Assamites have at least
rush and intercept decks.
> > If you think that combat protection would make S&B too
> > strong, then other clans should get some cards against it (someone
> > mentioned disciplineless bounce, for instance)
>
> Really the problem is that S&B seems to be more consistent at winning
> than combat; there's already some potential need for better defense
> against it.
Why not? If a deck is too strong, other decks should get some defense
Darky
> jja....@hccnet.nl (Darky) wrote in message news:<93148a54.0411...@posting.google.com>...
> > Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote in message news:<d6c82c73.04110...@posting.google.com>...
>
> > > Oh Dear! Look, Caitlin is 6, Soldat is 7, Sebastian Goulet is 8, and
> > > only Hartmut Stover is 10. Then, Hartmut is going to "feed" you each
> > > turn, and Sebastian Goulet can play Governs at superior.
> >
> > ok then play malk/!malk with presence, irrelevant.
>
> It's really irrelevant... Since the only !Malks with superior presence
> are Aristotle (cap.9, and not very good IMHO) and Alicia Barrows (cap.
> 9 and group 4). Camarilla Malks have more options.
so whats stopping you from using regular malks?
> > > > You're saying on the one hand that you want something for regular
> > > > (!)malks without disciplines tacked on to survive combat, and on the
> > > > other hand you're saying DOM/PRO decks are both good bleeders and have
> > > > access to earthmeld.
> > >
> > > It's simple: since Malks/!Malks cannot get decent protection from
> > > their clan disciplines, they are forced to seek protection elsewhere.
> > > This results in bizarre designs like decks based on Rachel.
> >
> > which is also very very effective.
>
> I didn't play the deck yet, but it doesn't seem very effective... at
> least for now. Mid-cap S&B is much more effective, though Rachel is
> far better protected. Other clans have much more effective decks with
> out-clan disciplines. Just look at Omaya, for instance.
Rachel is a monster. Omaya is less effective than rachel.
> > > > Giving this card to dementation is like giving a +1/+2 bleed modifier
> > > > to protean. Not balanced with what the discipline already does.
> > >
> > > I'd agree if you said "+1 bleed modifier". Personally I have nothing
> > > against giving +1 bleed modifier to Protean.
> >
> > Your card definatly isn't just a +1 bleed modifier. it's comparable to
> > a S:CE, and in some metagames definately better.
>
> There are several misunderstandings here:
> 1). Run Away is only "comparable to S:CE", but it's not S:CE. It may
> be better in some metagames, but generally it's much worse. Any
> long-range combat will just thank you for wasting 1 blood. You can
> treat Run Away as "bad S:CE", as well as Alacrity is a "bad stealth"
> for Celerity.
With IG being the most reliable way to foil S:CE, and with this hosing
IG, it's as good as a normal S:CE.
-Bram Vink
pd...@lightlink.com
>>I have no choice, since I simply have no *GOOD* tools against combat
decks.>>
What do you want? Instant death? You already have access to many good
defensive cards--lots of manuvers, lots of dodges. Disguised Weapons.
Heck--using Disguised/Flash Grenade/Manuvers and you have a very
ironclad defense against combat--you manuver to long to avoid Grapples,
and at long you play S:CE to avoid ranged combat. Seems pretty solid to
me.
The Malkavians have plenty of combat cards that they can use to save
their hide. You just have to want to put them in your deck.
>>Cards that provide only maneuver, or only press, or only dodge,
aren't
going to be "toolboxed".>>
They are if you want to avoid getting killed. See, the problem here is
not "I don't have access to combat defense", it is "I have access to
combat defense, but don't want to use it, as it makes my deck less
effective in other areas." Which is what *every* deck made out of every
clan has to deal with.
With no combat defense at all in your deck, a Malk S+B deck is going to
plow under any prey. Put in a reasonable amount of combat defense, and
the deck is slower, but still viable. And more likely to survive
getting rushed. These are choices you have and can make when building
your deck.
-Peter