Gratiano questions...

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Orpheus

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Jan 25, 2002, 8:04:20 PM1/25/02
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Ok, so tonight I played a Blood Siege with Gratiano, and some players I
didn't know, who were unaware that Gratiano's special could be cumulated
with another title.
Please answer the followings :

- Gratiano loses his Priscus title when he gains another title
- He still has one vote in the Prisci sub-referendum ; only one, so now he
is the equal of any other normal Priscus, right ?
- Can he use that vote even if no Priscus (apart from him who isn't Priscus
anymore) is present to call for the sub-referendum ?

Aside from that, I have to regret that tonight's game wasn't a Storyline
tournament, because Gratiano did an heroïc thing : he rushed (with Political
Struggle) Democritus, Ventrue Justicar, put him to torpor (Thoughts Betrayed
/ Leather Jacket / Disarm), diablerized him (Amaranth), got 3 votes in the
process, and survived the Blood Hunt to tell the story !! :-) Wouldn't that
have been nice in an official background thing ?

--
Yours,

Orpheus, Prince of Marseille

http://no.exit.free.fr (onlive novel)
http://cypheranima.free.fr (goth band)

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Halcyan 2

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Jan 25, 2002, 8:15:57 PM1/25/02
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>- Gratiano loses his Priscus title when he gains another title

Correct.

>- He still has one vote in the Prisci sub-referendum ; only one, so now he
>is the equal of any other normal Priscus, right ?

Correct. Gratiano the Cardinal has only one Prisci vote (just like most Prisci
have).

>- Can he use that vote even if no Priscus (apart from him who isn't Priscus
>anymore) is present to call for the sub-referendum ?

Yes.

>Aside from that, I have to regret that tonight's game wasn't a Storyline
>tournament, because Gratiano did an heroïc thing : he rushed (with Political
>Struggle) Democritus, Ventrue Justicar, put him to torpor (Thoughts Betrayed
>/ Leather Jacket / Disarm), diablerized him (Amaranth), got 3 votes in the
>process, and survived the Blood Hunt to tell the story !! :-) Wouldn't that
>have been nice in an official background thing ?

Gratiano is an annoying, dirty little Lasombra! Evil!

BTW: I was just checking up on the rules for the Prisci block but I didn't
notice anything preventing non-Sabbat from voting in it (besides the fact that
Priscus is a Sabbat title). So does this mean that Gratiano (the Camarilla
Prince) can still vote in the Prisci sub-referendum?

Halcyan 2

LSJ

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Jan 25, 2002, 8:49:31 PM1/25/02
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Orpheus wrote:
>
> Ok, so tonight I played a Blood Siege with Gratiano, and some players I
> didn't know, who were unaware that Gratiano's special could be cumulated
> with another title.
> Please answer the followings :
>
> - Gratiano loses his Priscus title when he gains another title

True. [6.3.4]

> - He still has one vote in the Prisci sub-referendum ; only one, so now he

True. [card text]

> is the equal of any other normal Priscus, right ?

Roughly.

> - Can he use that vote even if no Priscus (apart from him who isn't Priscus
> anymore) is present to call for the sub-referendum ?

Moot, since prisci don't call for sub-referendum. The sub-referendum is present
in all referendums. [6.3.3]


--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

LSJ

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Jan 25, 2002, 8:50:24 PM1/25/02
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Halcyan 2 wrote:
> BTW: I was just checking up on the rules for the Prisci block but I didn't
> notice anything preventing non-Sabbat from voting in it (besides the fact that
> Priscus is a Sabbat title). So does this mean that Gratiano (the Camarilla
> Prince) can still vote in the Prisci sub-referendum?

His card text has no sect qualifier, correct.

Orpheus

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Jan 26, 2002, 6:47:41 AM1/26/02
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Thank you for your answers. But some other questions have arisen yesterday :

- in what order are votes and vote modifier cast ?

- As an aside, I was wondering why the old rule concerning the ousting of
another methuselah than your prey has been changed ; rules usually change
when things go wrong, so what was the problem with gaining the blood from
ousting another methuselah ? It could sometimes save your life, not to
mention that the power to bleed whomever you want (Raphaele Giovanni, Julia
Prima...) is nearly worthless if you only give your future predator 6 pool
and a VP...

I'm sure there was some other thing we were wondering about, but well, I'll
remember in time and ask then...

The Lasombra

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Jan 26, 2002, 9:00:03 AM1/26/02
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"Orpheus" <orph...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:a2u57c$kqc$1...@wanadoo.fr...

> - in what order are votes and vote modifier cast ?

See 6.3.2 of the online rulebook, for this quote:

"All Methuselahs may now cast any votes they have
(see below) at this time, in any order."


See also 6.3.3 of the online rulebook for gaining votes:

"Methuselahs, by default, have no votes. Votes must be gained,
and there are a variety of ways to do so. Once gained, a vote
need not be cast right away, if at all. Each vote cast is cast
either "for" or "against" the referendum, and a Methuselah may
cast some of her votes in favor and some against, as she chooses,
with the restriction that all of the votes from a single source
must be cast in agreement, as a group. Once cast, a vote cannot
be changed."


Online Rulebook: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/


> - As an aside, I was wondering why the old rule concerning
> the ousting of another methuselah than your prey has been changed;

It hasn't changed, you only ever gained pool or vps for ousting
your prey.


Find your Jyhad rulebook, and read section 18.1 Winning the Game.

"When your PREY is ousted, you earn six blood points from the blood
bank, the prey's ante card, if ante is being played for, and
a victory point."

> rules usually change
> when things go wrong, so what was the problem with gaining the
> blood from ousting another methuselah ?

Nothing wrong with it at all.
It _always_ had to be your prey though.

> It could sometimes save your life, not to
> mention that the power to bleed whomever you want
> (Raphaele Giovanni, Julia Prima...) is nearly worthless
> if you only give your future predator 6 pool and a VP...

Agreed.
You should not oust someone other than your prey, unless it
will win you the game. This has always been the case.

> I'm sure there was some other thing we were wondering about,
> but well, I'll remember in time and ask then...


Please do.


Carpe noctem.

Lasombra

http://www.TheLasombra.com


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

James Coupe

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Jan 26, 2002, 9:31:54 AM1/26/02
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In message <c90adeb079d37d9f203...@mygate.mailgate.org>,

The Lasombra <thela...@hotmail.com> writes:
>> It could sometimes save your life, not to
>> mention that the power to bleed whomever you want
>> (Raphaele Giovanni, Julia Prima...) is nearly worthless
>> if you only give your future predator 6 pool and a VP...
>
>Agreed.
>You should not oust someone other than your prey, unless it
>will win you the game. This has always been the case.

Indeed. Garfield's take on this was that the predator/prey dynamic
helped stop 'random' cross-table interaction, along with providing cards
where such was limited.

If you *do* want to oust someone cross-table or your predator or
whatever, then you must be getting some other significant advantage from
it e.g. you're playing a vote deck and they are too, and you want to try
and achieve vote lock.

--
James Coupe "Never give in to them," she whispered. "No matter what
PGP 0x5D623D5D EB they do or how important you feel it is to get their accep-
D690ECD7A1FB457CA21 tance. Never kill part of yourself for them. Because other
3D7E668C3695D623D5D people will notice that part is missing before you do."

Orpheus

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Jan 26, 2002, 9:43:27 AM1/26/02
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> > - in what order are votes and vote modifier cast ?
>
> See 6.3.2 of the online rulebook, for this quote:
>
> "All Methuselahs may now cast any votes they have
> (see below) at this time, in any order."

So, can for instance the Lasombra Meth ;-) cast votes with Gratiano, then
wait for other meths' voters B4 deciding if Alvaro will vote too or abstain
?

> See also 6.3.3 of the online rulebook for gaining votes:
>
> "Methuselahs, by default, have no votes. Votes must be gained,
> and there are a variety of ways to do so. Once gained, a vote
> need not be cast right away, if at all. Each vote cast is cast
> either "for" or "against" the referendum, and a Methuselah may
> cast some of her votes in favor and some against, as she chooses,
> with the restriction that all of the votes from a single source
> must be cast in agreement, as a group. Once cast, a vote cannot
> be changed."

Hum, thank you, but it's not 100% clear to me yet, so :

Can vote cards be tossed in any order ? Does the "from a single source" mean
the vampire, or the methuselah ? Can you add one vote card, wait, add some
presence modifier, etc. ?

Anyway, I guess there must be some conventions, especially during
tournaments, to avoid total chaos during votes ? In that case, which type of
table turn is usually adopted ?

> > - As an aside, I was wondering why the old rule concerning
> > the ousting of another methuselah than your prey has been changed;
>
> It hasn't changed, you only ever gained pool or vps for ousting
> your prey.

I checked and you're right, as always ; weird : I've never played prior to
SW, but different people from different playgroups told me the rule used to
be different... very weird.

Oh, and Jeff : I hope you appreciated Gratiano's latest diablerie... ;-)

Speaking of whom, I never understood how Gratiano himself could be an 8 cap
knowing his generation and background...


--

James Coupe

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Jan 26, 2002, 10:58:19 AM1/26/02
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In message <a2ufgv$62r$1...@wanadoo.fr>, Orpheus <orph...@wanadoo.fr>
writes:

>> "All Methuselahs may now cast any votes they have
>> (see below) at this time, in any order."
>
>So, can for instance the Lasombra Meth ;-) cast votes with Gratiano, then
>wait for other meths' voters B4 deciding if Alvaro will vote too or abstain
>?

They can vote "in any order".

>Can vote cards be tossed in any order ?

Yes. Votes are cast "in any order", over-riding 1.6.1.6

>Anyway, I guess there must be some conventions, especially during
>tournaments, to avoid total chaos during votes ? In that case, which type of
>table turn is usually adopted ?

"any order" is the only official one.

LSJ

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Jan 26, 2002, 12:01:50 PM1/26/02
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Orpheus wrote:
> Can vote cards be tossed in any order ? Does the "from a single source" mean

Yes.

> the vampire, or the methuselah ? Can you add one vote card, wait, add some

A single source is a vampire or a single non-vampire source (like Ventrue HQ).
All the votes a single vampire casts must be cast in agreement.
All the votes from a given non-vampire source must be cast in agreement (you
cannot tap the Ventrue HQ and cast 2 in favor and 1 against).

> presence modifier, etc. ?

Yes.

> Anyway, I guess there must be some conventions, especially during
> tournaments, to avoid total chaos during votes ? In that case, which type of
> table turn is usually adopted ?

"Any order" hasn't ever posed a problem or been an issue so far.

The Fanboy

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Jan 26, 2002, 12:59:37 PM1/26/02
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> Speaking of whom, I never understood how Gratiano himself could be an 8 cap
> knowing his generation and background...

Because he's the weakest of the 4th Geneartion Lasombra, and in
comparison with many of the other Lasombra ancients, he isn't all that
strong, physically, or politically. He's not the one who diablerized
Lasombra, he just led the anarchs to where he was. If he had, he
probably wouldn't be in the game at all....

Fanboy

Orpheus

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Jan 26, 2002, 7:53:53 PM1/26/02
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OK, thanks for the enlightment... :-)


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