Heart of Nizchetus - too strong?
nood...@iprimus.com.au
Heart of Nizchetus
Type: Equipment
Cost: 1 pool
Unique equipment.
During your untap phase, if the bearer is ready, you may draw up to
three cards from your library and then move the same number of cards
from your hand to the bottom of your library.
It's my firm belief that this card is the first true "power rare" VTES
has ever seen. A card which everybody wants, which makes any deck [bar
Master only] better regardless of design, a card for which there no
equal in terms of effect. Am I alone in this belief?
The ability to cycle card quickly is a boon to any deck, we've known
that since Fragments of the Book of Nod and the Barrens were born. So,
proceeding upon the assumption that every deck is better when it can
cycle it's cards faster than it's opponent, let's compare the Heart to
other cards which allow a card drawing effect.
Fragment of the Book of Nod
Type: Master
Unique master.
Tap to draw 2 cards from your library. Discard down to your hand size.
Any vampire can take control of the Fragment for his or her controller
as a (D) action.
Pros:
*Not as easy to counter Master Cards [Sudden Reversal, Wash] as it it
to block an equip action, though I would argue with the many cards
which allow unblockable actions, and the prolific nature of stealth
and anti block tech across many disciplines [aus, cel, dom, for, nec,
obf, obt, pre, pro, myt, obe, san, tha] this is BARELY true.
*No pool cost.
*Usable outside untap phase.
Cons
*Two cards, not three.
*Cards are discarded, not recycled.
*May be stolen by other vampires.
Winner: Heart.
Barrens, The
Type: Master
Master: unique location.
Tap to discard a card from your hand.
Pros:
*Not as easy to counter Master Cards as it it to block an equip
action. Barely.
*No pool cost.
*Usable outside untap phase.
Cons:
*One card, not three.
*Cards are discarded, not recycled.
Winner: Heart.
Dreams of the Sphinx
Type: Master
Cost: 1 pool
Unique master.
Put this card in play. Put a counter on this card each time you tap
it. When the third counter is added, burn this card. Tap this card to
get +2 hand size until the end of the current turn. Tap during your
untap phase to gain an additional pool if you have the Edge. Tap to
move a blood from the blood bank to a vampire in your uncontrolled
region.
Pros:
*Not as easy to counter Master Cards as it it to block an equip
action. Barely.
*Increases hand size.
*Usable outside untap phase.
Cons:
*Two cards, not three.
*Cards are discarded, not recycled.
*3 use only.
Winner: Heart.
Shilmulo Tarot
Type: Equipment
Requires: Ravnos
Unique equipment.
Move the top two cards from your library to this equipment (face
down). You may look at the cards on this equipment at any time. If
this Ravnos is ready and you should draw a card from your library, you
may draw one of these cards instead. During your untap phase, you may
move the top card from your library to this card.
Pros:
*Increases "potential" hand size outside the untap phase.
*No pool cost.
Cons:
*One card per turn, not three.
*Requires Ravnos.
Aura Reading
Type: Combat
Requires: Auspex
Only usable before range is chosen.
[aus] The opposing minion's controller plays with an open hand for the
remainder of combat.
[AUS] Your hand size is increased by 2 cards for the remainder of this
combat. A vampire can play only one Aura Reading at superior each
combat.
Pros:
*Not counterable, save by DI.
*Increases hand size.
*Usable outside untap phase.
Cons:
*Two cards, not three.
*Cards are discarded, not recycled.
*Requires AUS.
*Only usable in combat.
Winner: Heart.
Infernal Pursuit
Type: Combat
Requires: Celerity
[cel] Press.
[CEL] For the remainder of the combat, each time you replace a card
(including when you draw to replace this card), draw an additional
card and discard down to your hand size.
Pros:
*Not counterable, save by DI.
*Usable outside untap phase.
Cons:
*Two cards, not three.
*Cards are discarded, not recycled.
*Requires CEL.
*Only usable in combat.
Winner: Heart.
I'm certain there are other recycling effects that I can't think of
off the top of my head. However, I will wager the following is true of
any card in VTES which allows a cycle mechanic:
None of them cycle three cards every round.
None of them place the cycled cards back in your library instead of in
your ash heap.
Yes, the Heart is unique, which can lead to contestation - the same is
true of the Barrens and the Fragments, but given the desirability of
the Heart for any deck, this is it's only tangible weakness.
Yes, the action to equip can be blocked, but again, given the
proliferation of anti-block tech in the game. a deck that really wants
to get that Heart will probably do so. Once it's on the table, very
little short of a Shattering Blow or some Ravnos jiggery-pokery is
getting rid of it. Besides, simply because the action can be blocked,
that's no reason to create an overpowered action. If a card like this
existed:
Oh, Snap?
Type: Action
Requires: n/a
The acting minion may burn a minion controlled by another Methuselah
as a [D] action.
that's blockable too. But nobody is going to defend the existence of a
card like this simply because it can be blocked.
The effect of the Heart is too great. 3 cards per turn, recycled NOT
burned, for one pool is just too strong. There's been no effect CLOSE
to this in the game thus far. If it were 2 cards per turn, burned not
recycled, it would be comparible with Fragments on the power curve
[costs pool, but can't be stolen]. As it stands, I can't see any card
that comes close to this thing. I never thought I'd say this about a
VTES card, but I honestly believe it deserves a nerf. And yes, I
realise the problems this causes, but they're not greater than the
problem the Heart itself causes. There's a reason it's colloquially
known as the "Heart of Cheating".
Potential changes:
Heart of Nizchetus
Type: Equipment
Cost: 1 pool
Unique equipment.
During your untap phase, if the bearer is ready, you may draw up to
two cards from your library and then move the same number of cards
from your hand to your ash heap.
Heart of Nizchetus
Type: Equipment
Cost: 3 pool
Unique equipment.
During your untap phase, if the bearer is ready, you may draw up to
two cards from your library and then move the same number of cards
from your hand to the bottom of your library.
This of course, is ignoring that fact that the card distribution in
3rd Ed was simply awful, it's virtually impossible to find one, and it
won't be reprinted for at least a year. But we'll assume [falsely]
that everyone who wants one, has one.
Who knows? Maybe the designers thought that games were timing out too
often, so created a card that EVERY deck would play so games would
speed up through pool lost via contestation. But i just can't see the
sense in it.
Thoughts?
J
negativity? :P
Personally, I feel that the Heart is overpowered, but I've never heard
it referred to as "The Heart of Cheating" - I just call it Alphabet
Soup, because the only people in our play group who have one pronounce
it a different way every time they get it out.
I think that if the Heart was an action to use it would be ok - not
just an effect.
ie
Heart of Nizchetus
Type: Equipment
Cost: 1 pool
Unique equipment.
The minion with the Heart may take a +1 stealth action allowing you to
draw
up to three cards from your library and then move the same number of
cards
from your hand to the bottom of your library.
That'd be heaps better IMNSHO.
--> J
grail_pbem "at" hotmail.com
Klai...@gmail.com
I personally consider Dreams as better card than Heart, as Dreams
makes ANY deck better and is hell of a lot more versatile than heart.
Also the significance of the heart being an action that can be blocked
is a lot bigger than you make it, not nearly every deck packs
considerable amounts of stealth. Also you can get rid of the heart (or
even steal it in case of diablerie) by just burning the vampire who
has it. I have personally got 4 hearts from around 3 boxes, and traded
two of them away already, and I don't even consider it in nearly every
deck. There are many decks that simply don't have the actions to spare
to get the heart, especially since have to take it into account that
its new and hot so the chances of contesting are rather big.
librarian
> Heart of Nizchetus
> Type: Equipment
> Cost: 1 pool
> Unique equipment.
> During your untap phase, if the bearer is ready, you may draw up to
> three cards from your library and then move the same number of cards
> from your hand to the bottom of your library.
>
> It's my firm belief that this card is the first true "power rare" VTES
> has ever seen. A card which everybody wants, which makes any deck [bar
> Master only] better regardless of design, a card for which there no
> equal in terms of effect. Am I alone in this belief?
>
I equipped once with the heart, and I wasn't impressed with it. Might
need to use it more to learn to do the "right" things with it.
Honestly, I think Govern and Deflection are more powerful.
best -
chris
--
Super Fun Cards
http://myworld.ebay.com/superfuncards/
auct...@superfuncards.com
Klai...@gmail.com
Oh and also, if you REALLY need to dump 3 cards from your hand every
turn, then there is something wrong with your deck, seriously.
nood...@iprimus.com.au
Heart makes ANY deck better too. The ability to cycle through 3 cards
every turn, to have the cards you need in hand now and to move your
endgame cards to a position in your library where you'll draw them
endgame all for a single action and 1 pool, is simply priceless.
Dreams is versatile, yes. It also goes away after you use it three
times. The Heart is there perpetually.
> Also the significance of the heart being an action that can be blocked is a lot bigger than you make it, not nearly every deck packs considerable amounts of stealth.
So again, if a card existed that allowed your minions to take a [D]
action to burn any minion on the table, that would be okay because the
action can be blocked?
> Also you can get rid of the heart (or even steal it in case of diablerie) by just burning the vampire who has it.
If only one could burn one's opponent's minions with the casual air
that this sentence implies.
Fact is, you can't. Especially when their deck is cycling four times
as efficiently as yours.
> There are many decks that simply don't have the actions to spare to get the heart
......
I really don't know what to say to this. The action to equip the Heart
of Nizchetus is often the action that wins people the game.
nood...@iprimus.com.au
> need to use it more to learn to do the "right" things with it.
Well, all the Heart really does is allow your deck to do what you
designed it to do, far, far more reliably.
> Honestly, I think Govern and Deflection are more powerful.
I'll gladly trade you a fistful of Governs and Deflections for your
Heart. ;)
nood...@iprimus.com.au
> I may be wrong here Jason - but do I detect a faint tone of negativity? :P
Trying not to be negative, but I'm asking for a nerf, so it's
difficult. :)
> Heart of Nizchetus
> Type: Equipment
> Cost: 1 pool
> Unique equipment.
> The minion with the Heart may take a +1 stealth action allowing you to draw
> up to three cards from your library and then move the same number of cards
> from your hand to the bottom of your library.
Yep. that works for me.
nood...@iprimus.com.au
> turn, then there is something wrong with your deck, seriously.
Yeah. My decks suck pretty bad....
Jeff Kuta
> Heart of Nizchetus
> Type: Equipment
> Cost: 1 pool
> Unique equipment.
> During your untap phase, if the bearer is ready, you may draw up to
> three cards from your library and then move the same number of cards
> from your hand to the bottom of your library.
Yeah, it's really damn good. Broken is a word that comes to mind.
A couple other random suggestions which won't be implemented, but
might make it more palatable.
"You *must* draw three cards from your library...*
or
"You may *move three cards from your hand to the bottom of your
library and then draw up to your hand size*"
First one makes it mandatory so you might have to ruin your perfect
hand sometimes.
Second one makes it more like the Barrens than the Fragment.
But, at least it is Unique. ;)
Jeff Kuta
If your deck can't benefit from cycling three cards at the start of
every turn, then there is also something very wrong with it.
Jeff
Klai...@gmail.com
Heart is really only needed in combo decks that need to regularly have
like certain 3 or more cards in hand to do their thing. But for
example a Giovanni power bleed, I would always much prefer to draw a
govern or conditioning instead of heart. Also in about any fattie deck
that doesn't use an ungodly number of freak drives (yes those exist)
there really isn't actions to spare to get a heart (like a toreador
vote for example), and also, in any deck that doesn't run stealth,
your chances of getting the heart on one of your minions unblocked is
pretty slim, so again, master based cycling is much more favorable.
Sure if I am doing some trap + weather control + flesh of marble +
taste of vitae deck, then I want to use heart, but not in most decks.
Frankly, each and every time some actually 'tier 1' (I hate that term
btw) comes out, everyone are going like 'OMG the sky is falling!'
There was this same crying for example when Carlton and Bowl came out,
everyone was yelling about how it 'killed stealth bleed' and whatever,
and by now we can all see how that certainly didn't happen. Same thing
will happen here too, it is a good card but it isn't the 'end of the
game'.
James Coupe
Klai...@gmail.com writes:
>There was this same crying for example when Carlton and Bowl came out,
>everyone was yelling about how it 'killed stealth bleed' and whatever,
>and by now we can all see how that certainly didn't happen.
I think your memory is faulty here. I don't actually remember that many
people yelling that Bowl of Convergence killed stealth bleed (which came
out at the same time as Channel 10). I remember one or two people doing
so, and it being pointed out that they were very probably wrong.
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.
nood...@iprimus.com.au
> like certain 3 or more cards in hand to do their thing. But for
> example a Giovanni power bleed, I would always much prefer to draw a
> govern or conditioning instead of heart.
You really are failing to understand what this card does. It allows
you the opportunity to increase your chances of having a Conditioning/
Govern in hand IMMENSELY. If you already have them in hand at the
start of your turn, great, don't use the Heart. If instead you have a
fistful of action mods, masters and Potence cards, the Heart gives you
three more chances to draw into your Bleed. Unless you're creating
magical decks that always give you the hand you need at the start of
your turn, each and every one of your decks will be better for having
a Heart in it.
Your Gio deck has a Condioning in hand. Great. Now what are you going
to use to get that Bleed through? A stealth card? A seduction? A
Bonding? Where are they coming from? And wouldn't you enjoy having
triple the chance to draw into them than you have without a Heart?
> Also in about any fattie deck
> that doesn't use an ungodly number of freak drives (yes those exist)
> there really isn't actions to spare to get a heart (like a toreador
> vote for example),
You mean Toreador Vote with Alexandra untapping a Tori every turn, and
Masika untapping every discard phase, that can equip the Heart
unblockably using Toreador Grand Ball? You mean Tori vote like that?
> and also, in any deck that doesn't run stealth,
> your chances of getting the heart on one of your minions unblocked is
> pretty slim, so again, master based cycling is much more favorable.
What kind of deck doesn't run stealth, anti block, or cards to lure
out wakes/waste blocks [change of target/multi action/minion swarm] or
actually wants to be blocked [combat]? Worst case scenario - the
action to recruit the Heart gets blocked. Chances are whatever action
you put in your deck instead of the Heart would have also gotten
blocked. Best case scenario - your minion is now equipped with the
hands down best cycling tech in the game.
> Sure if I am doing some trap + weather control + flesh of marble +
> taste of vitae deck, then I want to use heart, but not in most decks.
What kind of decks are you using that only require one card to
accomplish it's goals? What kind of decks are you using that ALWAYS
have an optimal hand at the start of your turn, regardless of the
state of the game?
> Frankly, each and every time some actually 'tier 1' (I hate that term
> btw) comes out, everyone are going like 'OMG the sky is falling!'
> There was this same crying for example when Carlton and Bowl came out,
> everyone was yelling about how it 'killed stealth bleed' and whatever,
> and by now we can all see how that certainly didn't happen. Same thing
> will happen here too, it is a good card but it isn't the 'end of the
> game'.
Nobody is claiming it's the end of the game, so drop the parantheses
and hyperbole, please. What I'm stating is that this card represents a
drastic, not a mild, but a DRASTIC shift in the powercurve of this
game. For cost and effect, there is currently no card that even comes
close.
Johannes Walch
> Dreams of the Sphinx
> Type: Master
> Cost: 1 pool
> Unique master.
> Put this card in play. Put a counter on this card each time you tap
> it. When the third counter is added, burn this card. Tap this card to
> get +2 hand size until the end of the current turn. Tap during your
> untap phase to gain an additional pool if you have the Edge. Tap to
> move a blood from the blood bank to a vampire in your uncontrolled
> region.
>
> Pros:
> *Not as easy to counter Master Cards as it it to block an equip
> action. Barely.
> *Increases hand size.
> *Usable outside untap phase.
> Cons:
> *Two cards, not three.
> *Cards are discarded, not recycled.
> *3 use only.
>
> Winner: Heart.
Could at least argue why Heart should be better than Dreams? You didnt
even bring the influence speed up as a Pro, that is ridiculous.
> Shilmulo Tarot
> Type: Equipment
> Requires: Ravnos
> Unique equipment.
> Move the top two cards from your library to this equipment (face
> down). You may look at the cards on this equipment at any time. If
> this Ravnos is ready and you should draw a card from your library, you
> may draw one of these cards instead. During your untap phase, you may
> move the top card from your library to this card.
>
> Pros:
> *Increases "potential" hand size outside the untap phase.
> *No pool cost.
> Cons:
> *One card per turn, not three.
> *Requires Ravnos.
This card effectively increases your hand size by one each turn. That is
simply amazing, because with a Heart you could badly wish you didn´t
shove that Conditioning under there where you will see it in like 60
cards. With this card you will still have it in your hand. So of course
this card cant do 3 cards because it increases hand size and I find an
increase of hand size of 1 better than cycling 3 cards.
But apart from comparison to other single card I would also argue that
the card is not so overpowered. Like some people said before many decks
cant spend the action to equip and a lot of decks simply dont have the
means of pushing the action through. Of course it is very viable with
Magic of the Smith. Actually Bowl of Covergence is also very good
because of MotS. Perhaps MotS is the problem and not the Heart?
(Certainly not but perhaps that shows that it is hard to argue the
"power" of a single card, that belongs in the context of other existing
cards).
Also keep in mind that the good effect of this card makes the minion
bearing it a real target. People should be generally interested in
torporizing and diablerzing him to take over the Heart. So it seems to
be some kind of Red List to me.
As a funny side note: We were talking on the weekend's tournament about
the card and Olivier said "It is a good card for badly built decks". I
tend to agree that you should rather try to balance your deck to a good
flow and spare the action and pool to equip it. It is still a good card
but I wouldn´t really use it in many decks.
Johannes
--
for every card you include in your deck you should consider if it should
not be a govern the unaligned
Jeroen
> As a funny side note: We were talking on the weekend's tournament about
> the card and Olivier said "It is a good card for badly built decks". I
> tend to agree that you should rather try to balance your deck to a good
> flow and spare the action and pool to equip it. It is still a good card
> but I wouldn´t really use it in many decks.
Agreed, I think you can only rely on it if you play either Sybil's
Tongue or Magic of the Smith. Which is a shame, because I think most
rush decks could benefit from that effect. Without those, how many
Hearts are you going to pack? That said: if you can play it, it's real
powerful. I'm gonna disagree with Olivier here, but that's only
because the Swiss guys call everything that's a little toolboxy 'a bad
deck'.
And as for the power comparison with Dreams: you forgot to take a
couple of things into account: as said before: it's way more
versitile. But it's also possible to pack, say 4 of them in a 90 card
deck, without 3 becoming death weight.
Jeff Kuta
> noodle...@iprimus.com.au schrieb:
This should be indicative of the card's perceived power if other
Meth's are compelled to alter their game tactics to acquire the Heart
from other minions.
Jeff
Johannes Walch
>> Oh and also, if you REALLY need to dump 3 cards from your hand every
>> turn, then there is something wrong with your deck, seriously.
>
> If your deck can't benefit from cycling three cards at the start of
> every turn, then there is also something very wrong with it.
>
The question is do you *NEED* to dump 3 cards. Of course it can be a
benefit but probably the benefit will not outweigh the pool and action
it costs (along with the problems of uniqueness,equipmentness and such)
Johannes
Johannes Walch
>> Also keep in mind that the good effect of this card makes the minion
>> bearing it a real target. People should be generally interested in
>> torporizing and diablerzing him to take over the Heart. So it seems to
>> be some kind of Red List to me.
>
> This should be indicative of the card's perceived power if other
> Meth's are compelled to alter their game tactics to acquire the Heart
> from other minions.
The question is if the other Meths have to alter their game tactics at
all. If your predator plays rush he might have just rushed (perhaps
another) a minion of you anyway. But he will get the Heart as an
additional benefit when he is able to diablerize. And a rush predator
with a Heart that you paid for that just sucks :)
My point is not that the whole table will turn against the controller of
the Heart but rather that equipment has always drawn incentive to
diablerize and such a good and widely usefull equipment does even more
so. Likewise I would be also very happy to eat a minion with and Ivory
Bow or Bow of Convergance (sometimes even happier).
I certainly do not want to tell you that this is a crappy card, it is
really on par with the other top cards. But I don´t think it is better
than any of them in an absolute way because it has some serious
drawbacks. Remember that it doesnt have a "game effect" (like bleed,
intercept, damage), so while it might enable your strategy it might as
well be very useless if you happen to draw good cards anyway. And it
will probably not oust your prey nor keep you alive. Dreams for example
is always usefull since at worst it will gain you two pool or speed up
some transfers.
Johannes
J
> the card and Olivier said "It is a good card for badly built decks". I
> tend to agree that you should rather try to balance your deck to a good
> flow and spare the action and pool to equip it. It is still a good card
> but I wouldn´t really use it in many decks.
I disagree with this assessment.
The card allows you more flexibility dependant upon the game
environment.
At the Australian nats, I sat on a table where everyone (everyone) was
playing a form of stealth bleed. The guy that won, was the guy that
was able to draw into his bleed cards quickest - because everyone was
choking on them.
The heart would allow you to quickly start cycling excess stealth away
to get into the bleed cards.
Likewise, if you're on a table with no combat at all, and you've got
plenty of anti-combat cards in your hand, you can cycle them away. Or
conversely, if combat is heavy, you can cycle for them.
It doesn't mean that your deck is bad - just that the environment of
the table changes what balance is neccesary at the time. And this
changes from table to table. No single deck can have the right
balance for all situations, but the heart (and all other cycling
tech), allows you to have more flexibility to adjust to the state you
find yourself in.
Huruem
> the card and Olivier said "It is a good card for badly built decks". I
> tend to agree that you should rather try to balance your deck to a good
> flow and spare the action and pool to equip it. It is still a good card
> but I wouldn´t really use it in many decks.
>
> Johannes
>
> --
> for every card you include in your deck you should consider if it should
> not be a govern the unaligned
I tend to share this point of view as well. The only decks that I had
which really benefited from a Heart are some quite toolboxy multi
action decks. Quite limited isn't it? And I'm far from being as an
extremist in terms of focused decks than Olivier. I hate the idea of
losing an action to draw cards, I really prefer using a MPA for that.
And in terms of cards that are worth entering every single deck I tend
to prefer Carlton van Wyck.
Arthur,
should try to go back into focused decks, my ratings should appreciate.
Jeff Kuta
There we will have to differ in our opinions. Even as a prayer card
for most decks, I think the Heart is worthwhile.
It is temporarily having a +3 hand size. The three cards you put back
on the bottom of your library are essentially the same as any other
three random cards you could draw. And you'll have them in the future
and potentially know what order they will be drawn. The Heart can
practically guarantee that no precious MPAs will ever be wasted during
a game. That is certainly worth 1 pool in my book. Uniqueness and
equipmentness are drawbacks, but very minor ones, though I suppose I
can see certain decks which make this much more difficult than others.
I guess we'll just see even more Anarch Troublemakers in play. ;)
Jeff
Jeff Kuta
I understand your point of view better. Yes, it absolutely does paint
a bullseye on a minion with the Heart (or Ivory Bow, or pretty much
any piece of decent equipment), which makes their unlife more uneasy.
As for drawing good cards, why not draw *even more* good cards? :)
Jeff
Jozxyqk
> Heart of Nizchetus
> Type: Equipment
> Cost: 1 pool
> Unique equipment.
> During your untap phase, if the bearer is ready, you may draw up to
> three cards from your library and then move the same number of cards
> from your hand to the bottom of your library.
> It's my firm belief that this card is the first true "power rare" VTES
> has ever seen. A card which everybody wants, which makes any deck [bar
> Master only] better regardless of design, a card for which there no
> equal in terms of effect. Am I alone in this belief?
...
> Yes, the Heart is unique, which can lead to contestation - the same is
> true of the Barrens and the Fragments, but given the desirability of
> the Heart for any deck, this is it's only tangible weakness.
> Yes, the action to equip can be blocked, but again, given the
> proliferation of anti-block tech in the game. a deck that really wants
> to get that Heart will probably do so. Once it's on the table, very
> little short of a Shattering Blow or some Ravnos jiggery-pokery is
> getting rid of it.
You also forgot a few other weaknesses of the heart:
1) If the Heart is so fricking good, then it will be in every single
deck and get contested.
2) "if the bearer is ready". So it takes a Heart *and* a Secure Haven
to prevent the bearer of the heart from getting rushed into oblivion.
Plus, every action taken by the Heart-bearer is that much more likely
to be blocked.
3) If your deck is *relying* on the Heart, then you're in danger of
being overdiversified/too toolboxy. Even recycling 3 cards during the
untap phase isn't necessarily going to help. And until that deck gets
the Heart, it's going to be pretty shaky.
I personally haven't seen the Heart do anything so scary, and don't
think it's overpowered or in need of weakening.
Surdreal
a torney, two main reasons, i was the only player packing a heart and i
rock... but the rocking aside vampire is a game of complex and subtle
strategy a player should not be that well placed by fielding that one
card. As a noob I should have trouble placing in a torney not come second.
J
> a torney, two main reasons, i was the only player packing a heart and i
> rock... but the rocking aside vampire is a game of complex and subtle
> strategy a player should not be that well placed by fielding that one
> card. As a noob I should have trouble placing in a torney not come second.
Why should you have trouble placing? V:TES as you say is subtle - it
is made up of many ingredients. Your deck may have just been a trump
for those around you, the players around you may have had off days,
you may have had good luck with your draws and those around you had
poor luck - or like you say, you may rock.
V:TES is a game of strategy and perception (you have to be able to
read your opponents as well as the table). If you are good at either
of these, even as a noob, you can and should do well at V:TES. You
may not have the complete understanding of how the cards always work
early on, but you can generally work out a good action from a bad one.
I won the first tournament I went to. Noobs performing well is not
unheard of.
cnislev
that since Fragments of the Book of Nod and the Barrens were born" -
so you're saying that the heart is good for every deck. Following that
assumption, no deck should be worse off, and balance of the game has
not been lost.
Also, a lot of very good arguments have been put forward for the Heart
here, so soon every deck will have one = contesting all over the
place. I LOVE this game mechanic, my favorite one of the game, the
more powerful a card is the harder it gets to play it.
But lets have a closer look at it: If you want to really base your
deck on having the heart in play, you would need at least 4 copies (or
vast wealths or something similar). Thats 4 card slots used, and its 3
card slots wasted (compared to Dreams of the Sphinx where having 4 is
definitely NOT wasting slots...). If youre playing a small deck (60-70
cards) that takes up a lot of room which could make you lose focus on
your strategy. If you're playing a full 90-card deck, using the heart
means putting away cards which you know for sure that you wont see
again for perhaps 8-15 turns (and thats after you have got a vamp out,
cycled into your heart and equipped with it). Do you know whats gonna
happen in 8 turns? I dont!!! and what happens if you lose the heart/it
gets contested after, say, 4 turns of use? 12 good cards at the bottom
of your deck... a bit of a gamble perhaps?
For a combat deck with CEL, I would prefer infernal pursuit any day,
the Heart doesnt give you the opportunity to cycle when in combat
where it's most important - and for combat decks without CEL, I still
feel that Aura Reading or Dreams are quite good, extra hand size IN
COMBAT rules.
I will concede that a minor change could be made to the card. As it is
now, it is very flexible ("up to 3 cards") - this means that it will
be of great use whether you have a crap hand (draw 3), a medium hand
(draw 2) or a very good hand (draw 1) in the relevant situation. A
wording such as "draw 3 cards" or "draw 2 or 3 cards" or similar might
change that - but I honestly think that the uniqueness and the hype
will ensure that the heart sees so much play that people will get sick
of contesting :-)
Ector
> In message <1172466682.2...@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
> Klai...@gmail.com writes:
> >There was this same crying for example when Carlton and Bowl came out,
> >everyone was yelling about how it 'killed stealth bleed' and whatever,
> >and by now we can all see how that certainly didn't happen.
>
> I think your memory is faulty here. I don't actually remember that many
> people yelling that Bowl of Convergence killed stealth bleed (which came
> out at the same time as Channel 10). I remember one or two people doing
> so, and it being pointed out that they were very probably wrong.
>
overconfident noob that didn't understand much in the game mechanics.
But even that noob admitted that he was wrong. I know that better than
anybody else since it was me :)
About the discussion:
Is Heart of Nizchetus broken? As much as Dreams. Probably even less,
since having hand size +2 for the entire turn allows much better hand
optimization than drawing three cards once per turn. So, there is
absolutely nothing to complain about.
Yes, it's strong. Very strong. But, you know, a novice usually
considers even Art Museum broken :) You pay 2 pool, get one back on
the same turn (+1 transfer), get the second back on the next turn, and
gain 1 pool per turn till the end of the game! Moreover, there usually
no reason of stealing it, if you aren't playing the same clan or
trying to hurt its owner.
Many unique permanent cards are much more powerful than the others,
but they're unique. If you draw on of them, your chance of winning
will increase, but the whole table would be aware of that. In many
cases, that's enough to decrease the card's power below the "broken"
level.
If somebody has the Heart, it's a good reason for his predator and his
prey (at least) to stop him until it would be too late. The Heart
becomes "broken" only if the players aren't experienced and they don't
understand the threat. The same situation with Madness Network: it
isn't broken if the players are experienced and know its power; then
they are able to unify and burn it. If nobody burns it, Madness
Network is much "more broken" than Heart.
Yours,
Ector
Jeff Kuta
> "The ability to cycle card quickly is a boon to any deck, we've known
> that since Fragments of the Book of Nod and the Barrens were born" -
> so you're saying that the heart is good for every deck. Following that
> assumption, no deck should be worse off, and balance of the game has
> not been lost.
I don't agree with this. What it means is that the deck which equips
the Heart *first* gets a significant advantage. For instance, I'm sure
many other people have kept Dreams of the Sphinx in their hands for 3+
turns just waiting for the current Meth to be finished using it.
Gehenna events are closer to maintaining game balance because everyone
is affected by the same mechanic, though practically speaking, Meths
design decks using Gehenna to hose everyone else who isn't prepared.
> Also, a lot of very good arguments have been put forward for the Heart
> here, so soon every deck will have one = contesting all over the
> place. I LOVE this game mechanic, my favorite one of the game, the
> more powerful a card is the harder it gets to play it.
I totally agree with you here. Contesting library cards is great.
Contesting vampires is not so great, but that happens less frequently,
though when it does happen, it's more devastating.
> But lets have a closer look at it: If you want to really base your
> deck on having the heart in play, you would need at least 4 copies (or
> vast wealths or something similar). Thats 4 card slots used, and its 3
> card slots wasted (compared to Dreams of the Sphinx where having 4 is
> definitely NOT wasting slots...). If youre playing a small deck (60-70
> cards) that takes up a lot of room which could make you lose focus on
> your strategy. If you're playing a full 90-card deck, using the heart
> means putting away cards which you know for sure that you wont see
> again for perhaps 8-15 turns (and thats after you have got a vamp out,
> cycled into your heart and equipped with it). Do you know whats gonna
> happen in 8 turns? I dont!!! and what happens if you lose the heart/it
> gets contested after, say, 4 turns of use? 12 good cards at the bottom
> of your deck... a bit of a gamble perhaps?
You only need 1 Heart to make your deck *better.* That's the key.
Sure, you might want to design your deck around it, but because it's
so useful, there's practically no downside NOT to include it. That's
the tell-tale sign of a power card.
It's really like this: The Barrens is powerful because it turns the
*worst* card in your hand into a *better* card--or else you wouldn't
use it! The Heart does this, potentially three times as much per turn.
In fact, it does that even better because you get to see the cards
before you put then at the bottom of your library. So what if you
don't see them for 8-15 turns. It only matters that you didn't need
then *right now.* If you don't want them 8-15 turns later, use the
Heart to cycle them again. :P A simple example, if you have a fast
stealth bleed predator and you're playing a slowish deck, wouldn't you
want to have three extra chances per turn to get your bleed defense,
or any defense against ANY OTHER DECK YOU MIGHT FACE? Of course you
would.
> For a combat deck with CEL, I would prefer infernal pursuit any day,
> the Heart doesnt give you the opportunity to cycle when in combat
> where it's most important - and for combat decks without CEL, I still
> feel that Aura Reading or Dreams are quite good, extra hand size IN
> COMBAT rules.
The big problem with Infernal Pursuit and Aura Reading is that they're
combat cards and you must be in combat to use them. Sucks having a
hand full of red cards and no way to fight, right? So you those *AND*
the Heart.
> I will concede that a minor change could be made to the card. As it is
> now, it is very flexible ("up to 3 cards") - this means that it will
> be of great use whether you have a crap hand (draw 3), a medium hand
> (draw 2) or a very good hand (draw 1) in the relevant situation. A
> wording such as "draw 3 cards" or "draw 2 or 3 cards" or similar might
> change that - but I honestly think that the uniqueness and the hype
> will ensure that the heart sees so much play that people will get sick
> of contesting :-)
For me it's not so much that I think the card needs to be fixed--I
just like tweaking strong and weak cards at the edges to bring them
closer to what I conside "normal." I'm mostly just boggled, yet
paradoxically heartened, that such a powerful card made it through the
design team. I mean, why couldn't this card be require a Laibon, or
something else to help those who are stuck at the low end of the power
curve. That would do much more for game balance IMO, than just
throwing a power card into the mix.
Jeff
Surdreal
my bleed, then back into my stealth.
Klai...@gmail.com
So Jeff... you are saying that you would prefer that no good cards are
printed and people just keep using the cards from the few first sets
of the game? I personally at least find it a GOOD thing that powerful
cards are printed.
James Coupe
I think that you're over-estimating the cost of the action taken. In a
deck with some/many spare actions (such as a breed deck, which can
afford to have a midcap take an equip action when the breedees bleed for
12), equipping a single piece of equipment is not all that high a cost.
It's things like equipping 3 or 4 Laptop Computers that piss me off.
nood...@iprimus.com.au
> 1) If the Heart is so fricking good, then it will be in every single
> deck and get contested.
Actually, I listed this as it's only tangible weakness. This is, of
course, ignoring that fact that not everybody owns one, they sell for
anywhere between US$18-30 on ebay, and that they won't be reprinted
for at least a year. But, ignoring that, yes, contestation is the
Heart's weakness.
> 2) "if the bearer is ready". So it takes a Heart *and* a Secure Haven
> to prevent the bearer of the heart from getting rushed into oblivion.
> Plus, every action taken by the Heart-bearer is that much more likely
> to be blocked.
"Rushed into oblivion". Hmm. Assuming there are rush decks at the
table, assuming they are sitting next to the Heart bearer, or can
spare an action to Rush across table, and assuming that cycling three
extra cards per turn
hasn't given the Heart bearer his Secure Haven, or cycled his Meth
into any one of a hundred ways to defend against Rush, then yes,
you're correct. However, those are ridiculous assumptions.
> 3) If your deck is *relying* on the Heart, then you're in danger of
> being overdiversified/too toolboxy. Even recycling 3 cards during the
> untap phase isn't necessarily going to help. And until that deck gets
> the Heart, it's going to be pretty shaky.
Who says your deck needs to *rely* upon the Heart? Why can't the Heart
simply be used in a great deck to make it even better?
No deck, NO DECK, gives it's Meth an optimal hand at the start of
every turn. Anybody who tells you that he has the perfect hand every
untap phase is simply lying.
nood...@iprimus.com.au
> simply amazing, because with a Heart you could badly wish you didn´t
> shove that Conditioning under there where you will see it in like 60
> cards. With this card you will still have it in your hand. So of course
> this card cant do 3 cards because it increases hand size and I find an
> increase of hand size of 1 better than cycling 3 cards.
Shilmulo Tarot is a superb card. It's also only playable by a single
clan. One clan out of FORTY. That fact alone makes the heart superior.
We'll leave out the fact that not many Ravnos decks use
Conditionings. :)
> But apart from comparison to other single card I would also argue that
> the card is not so overpowered. Like some people said before many decks
> cant spend the action to equip and a lot of decks simply dont have the
> means of pushing the action through.
Even as a prayer card, it's worth including. If you don't have the
means of pushing your actions through, how are you ousting your prey?
You must have some means by which you're succeeding in your oust
actions, either by stealthing, or weight of numbers, fear of blocking,
whatever. Every deck, EVERY DECK, must have a means by which it's oust
actions are successful.
And i say again, how anyone can believe they can't affrod to tap a
minion and gain the best cycling tech in the game is beyond me. That's
tantamount to saying "I can't afford to take an action that will
absolutely, undisputably help me win this game."
> Also keep in mind that the good effect of this card makes the minion
> bearing it a real target. People should be generally interested in
> torporizing and diablerzing him to take over the Heart. So it seems to
> be some kind of Red List to me.
Indeed. Assuming there is rush on the table. Assuming the Heart deck
has no Rush defense, or hasn't cycled into it, even though it's
cycling 3 times faster than most decks at the table. Or assuming the
Heart bearer is silly enough to get blocked with his pants down.
Additionally, the fact that this card makes the bearer "a real target"
should be testimony to it's power level, yes? If everybody on the
table suddenly wants to rush it's bearer and take the Heart for
themselves, including those decks that "can't afford the action" to
equip the Hear tin the first place, doesn't that just go to prove how
powerful it is?
> As a funny side note: We were talking on the weekend's tournament about
> the card and Olivier said "It is a good card for badly built decks".
This is simply arrogance. There is no deck which starts every untap
phase with a perfect hand. By this logic, any deck which uses cycling
tech is "badly built", which is utter nonesense.
nood...@iprimus.com.au
> just like tweaking strong and weak cards at the edges to bring them
> closer to what I conside "normal." I'm mostly just boggled, yet
> paradoxically heartened, that such a powerful card made it through the
> design team. I mean, why couldn't this card be require a Laibon, or
> something else to help those who are stuck at the low end of the power
> curve. That would do much more for game balance IMO, than just
> throwing a power card into the mix.
Exactly. Make it Assamite only, and watch how they'd jump for joy.
Jeff Kuta
>
> - Show quoted text -
I like seeing good cards printed. On the Qui Vive gives allies a Wake
and it's usable by vampires too. Abbot is some cheap intercept for
Sabbat vampires. Those two among others will become staples in
competitive decks. The Heart can go in ANY deck too. We do need those
powerful cards and I think many Third Edition cards will see lots of
play. It's just interesting to me how this one card is so clearly more
powerful than the others. Ask anyone on eBay. ;)
Jeff
Jeff Kuta
I wouldn't be that greedy. ;)
Meej
> ... even though it's
> cycling 3 times faster than most decks at the table.
You keep writing this. I don't disagree with you at all that the
Heart is a really, really powerful card, but this just isn't true.
You're seeing an extra three cards a turn, sure. *Maybe* that's twice
as fast as everyone else. And that's assuming folks are really only
going through three cards a turn, which is very conservative. In my
experience, if your deck's not churning through 5 cards or so in a
round of turns, you're stalling out. Which makes this, what, a little
less than half again as fast.
Which is still darn good, I'd just prefer to not see your argument
diluted or dismissed due to hyperbole.
- D.J.
nood...@iprimus.com.au
> You keep writing this. I don't disagree with you at all that the
> Heart is a really, really powerful card, but this just isn't true.
> You're seeing an extra three cards a turn, sure. *Maybe* that's twice
> as fast as everyone else. And that's assuming folks are really only
> going through three cards a turn, which is very conservative. In my
> experience, if your deck's not churning through 5 cards or so in a
> round of turns, you're stalling out. Which makes this, what, a little
> less than half again as fast.
I guess what I'm trying to communicate is that your "base" cycle rate
is three, no actually, FOUR times faster.
I can't really speak for the rate at which your deck cycles during the
master/minion phase, but every deck has a basic cycle of one card per
turn in the discard phase. The Heart adds up to three cards to that
base rate. So technically, this base rate is four times that of a deck
without the Heart.
For one action, and one pool.
lysan...@excite.com
> Who says your deck needs to *rely* upon the Heart? Why can't the Heart
> simply be used in a great deck to make it even better?
>
> No deck, NO DECK, gives it's Meth an optimal hand at the start of
> every turn. Anybody who tells you that he has the perfect hand every
> untap phase is simply lying.
I agree with you 100% Jason. The Heart is way way too overpowered.
One of the main differentiators of good decks vs bad decks is card
flow. Hand jam will kill ANY deck. The major difference between an
average deck and a very powerful deck, is that the brilliant decks
will often induce hand jam in their opponents. They do so by keeping
a constant flow of cards themselves, whilst forcing the opponent to
have their hands stuck with stuff they cant use.
The Heart effectively removes hand jam from your equation. Badly
designed decks benefit immensely from having the Heart in play. Well
designed decks also benefit from having the Heart in play (though they
are not reliant on the Heart). Nowadays the first card that I see
Tremere players fishing out of their decks is the Heart. That should
say something about its power, when Flaming Candles or Ivory Bows are
given lower priority to this one piece of equipment.
The solution? Ban it. This is a powercard that both makes up for bad
deck construction skills, and improves well constructed decks. It
lowers the power differential between good and bad players, but still
improves good decks sufficiently to give them an enormous edge over
other good decks. That does indeed classify it as a powercard in my
books.
Thalles
Johannes Walch
> In message <eru9ak$1j4$1...@news01.versatel.de>, Johannes Walch
> <johanne...@vekn.de> writes:
>> Jeff Kuta schrieb:
>>>> Oh and also, if you REALLY need to dump 3 cards from your hand every
>>>> turn, then there is something wrong with your deck, seriously.
>>> If your deck can't benefit from cycling three cards at the start of
>>> every turn, then there is also something very wrong with it.
>> The question is do you *NEED* to dump 3 cards. Of course it can be a
>> benefit but probably the benefit will not outweigh the pool and action
>> it costs (along with the problems of uniqueness,equipmentness and such)
>
> I think that you're over-estimating the cost of the action taken. In a
> deck with some/many spare actions (such as a breed deck, which can
> afford to have a midcap take an equip action when the breedees bleed for
> 12), equipping a single piece of equipment is not all that high a cost.
> It's things like equipping 3 or 4 Laptop Computers that piss me off.
The original assumption was that the Heart of N'$%&tus is the
uber-powerfull card that needs to go in *all* decks but poor VTES
players cant afford to buy them since they cost $$$.
My argument was that even if I consider it a good card (so it is worth
including in *some* decks) that I can think of a lot of decks that cant
make a *good enough* use out of it.
A few examples:
In a Malk94 I would always prefer to bleed with a Govern (or transfer
down) instead of equipping a Heart.
In a breed deck I would not use it since minions tend to go to torpor
(there is rarely combat in breed decks) and with a Heart they will most
likely be diablerized (you have neither the votes nor the intercept to
stop them). I don´t want other people to have the Heart I paid for.
Johannes
Johannes Walch
>> As a funny side note: We were talking on the weekend's tournament about
>> the card and Olivier said "It is a good card for badly built decks".
> This is simply arrogance. There is no deck which starts every untap
> phase with a perfect hand. By this logic, any deck which uses cycling
> tech is "badly built", which is utter nonesense.
...
> I guess what I'm trying to communicate is that your "base" cycle rate
> is three, no actually, FOUR times faster.
Interesting. I rarely discard a card in my discard phase while playing
most of my decks. When I don´t even use that built in possibility
(because I don´t have to) why should I use the Heart?
Johannes
J
> down) instead of equipping a Heart.
Unless nobody attempts to block and you jam on stealth.
Chris Berger
>
> > noodle...@iprimus.com.au wrote:
> > > Heart of Nizchetus
> > > Type: Equipment
> > > Cost: 1 pool
> > > Unique equipment.
> > > During your untap phase, if the bearer is ready, you may draw up to
> > > three cards from your library and then move the same number of cards
>
> Oh and also, if you REALLY need to dump 3 cards from your hand every
> turn, then there is something wrong with your deck, seriously.
That's interesting, actually. I think it'd be a nice nerf to simply
make the cycling mandatory. You *must* draw 3 cards each untap phase
if the bearer is ready, and then move 3 cards to the bottom of your
library (obviously if your deck is empty, you just fail to draw the
cards).
Chris Berger
Err, umm... after re-reading that, I think I was confused and thought
you had to get rid of 3 cards first, before you drew the new ones. If
that had been the case, then making it mandatory would be more of a
nerf. As it is, making it mandatory probably wouldn't change
anything. =( Although, making it mandatory *and* making you get rid
of 3 cards first would certainly curb this new "power rare" that
people are getting all worked up over. Personally, I haven't seen it
in play yet and while there doesn't seem to be any downside to putting
it in every deck, I'm not necessarily convinced that it's all that
much better than, frex, Dreams.
nood...@iprimus.com.au
> uber-powerfull card that needs to go in *all* decks but poor VTES
> players cant afford to buy them since they cost $$$.
Perhaps you should re-read what I wrote.
> In a Malk94 I would always prefer to bleed with a Govern (or transfer
> down) instead of equipping a Heart.
Mmm. And you always have a Govern in hand. You've never jammed on
stealth and deflections, eh?
> In a breed deck I would not use it since minions tend to go to torpor
> (there is rarely combat in breed decks) and with a Heart they will most
> likely be diablerized (you have neither the votes nor the intercept to
> stop them). I don´t want other people to have the Heart I paid for.
No combat, intercept or votes in your breed decks. So you only play
stealth bleed breed decks? And they never jam on stealth either?
Magical!
nood...@iprimus.com.au
> Interesting. I rarely discard a card in my discard phase while playing
> most of my decks. When I don´t even use that built in possibility
> (because I don´t have to) why should I use the Heart?
You're either incredibly lucky, design incredibly one dimensional
decks, or you're exaggerating.
But yes, in this case, you wouldn't need to use the Heart. However,
I'd venture that most of us don't enjoy the luxury of starting and
finishing every turn with exactly the right cards in hand.
Robert Scythe
You know, even if I had the best hand I could possibly have during my
untap, I'd still draw three cards and maybe get rid of a 'not
currently going to be useful' card or 3 (and if they were also going
to be incredibly useful, I'd pretend that I wouldn't have drawn them
anyway). A Filchware's Pawnshop allowed me to equip one of these
recently (I own Zero) and I am damned certain that I would not have
won the table, and made it to the final, without it (and I usually do
pretty well in tournaments anyway, drink or no drink, uhh, I mean
Heart or no Heart). Problem is that there are very few decks that
couldn't use the inclusion of the Heart in them; I'd include one into
every deck that I am currently playing. But, hey, game balance is
getting closer! "Okay, my new deck has these cards so far:
1-8 Blood Doll
Heart of Nizchetus
1-2 Carlton Van Halen
1-2 Aranthebes
Mylan Horseed (contest or otherwise)
Heidelberg Castle
3-4 Dreams of the Sphincter
"
Let's hope I'm not using Dominate:
4-10 GtU
4-10 Deflection
2-8 Conditioning
"So, dude, what do I put in now? I mean 'presence vote' is so '94 to
'06 gimme a break".
Johannes Walch
>> In a Malk94 I would always prefer to bleed with a Govern (or transfer
>> down) instead of equipping a Heart.
>
> Mmm. And you always have a Govern in hand. You've never jammed on
> stealth and deflections, eh?
It was a stupid example since I didn´t play Malk94 for long time. But
just recently I played a Kyasid S&B and managed to construct it in a way
that I usually (of course there can be a really bad draw or shuffle, but
then again the Heart can be card #90) don´t jam on cards no matter what
happens, and yes I have managed to that for a lot of other decks. I love
decks that click together in many ways.
>> In a breed deck I would not use it since minions tend to go to torpor
>> (there is rarely combat in breed decks) and with a Heart they will most
>> likely be diablerized (you have neither the votes nor the intercept to
>> stop them). I don´t want other people to have the Heart I paid for.
>
> No combat, intercept or votes in your breed decks. So you only play
> stealth bleed breed decks? And they never jam on stealth either?
I played two breed decks lately. The most effective one was a Ravnos
with 26 Embraces, 6 Delayings and the rest was mostly mastercards. Never
jammed it. The second one was !Toreador with Con Boons, but never jammed
on Con Boons since you have so many minions.
My approach to breed is ... well to breed. I want to overhelm by the
number of minions and dont include any other tech (except for Conboons
maybe). That way I dont jam.
Johannes
atomweaver
news:es135t$pv$4...@news01.versatel.de:
Humor me please, and consider Heart's ability a different way for a
second
"During your untap phase, choose the best 7 out of 10 cards from your
hand and top of your library for this particular turn and opponent, and
save the three less optimal cards for use later in the game. "
Heart is best when its used to optimize resources towards a particular
opponent and/or a particular time during the game...
Particular opponent; Enrich your hand with those cards you need to
deal with your current prey... If you have a combat pred/prey, you can
enrich with combat defense. If you are a stealth bleed deck, you can
adjust your hand content to whatever counter-tactic your prey is using
(dump stealth in response to 'no block', enrich stealth in response to
intercept, etc.)
Particular time; If there are resources you need early on in the game
(Assault Rifle for Fatima, etc), you can include them with a lower level
of frequency, and reliably cycle to them quickly. Resources better used
later in the game can go to the bottom of the library setting up your
endgame as you go. Here, too, you can cycle through a deck containing
both deflect and intercept defense (in, say, a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio), use
the bounce early, and move the intercept to the lower portion of the
deck in anticipation of the two player end-game.
Whatever a player's deckbuilding skills or a deck's ability to "flow",
you'll have a hard time convincing me that they wouldn't gain a
significant benefit from a hand which is tailored to the _specifics_ of
the turn by turn particulars and circumstances of each game. That IMO
is the real reason for the fixation of so many on the Heart.
Regards,
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
Johannes Walch
> Whatever a player's deckbuilding skills or a deck's ability to "flow",
> you'll have a hard time convincing me that they wouldn't gain a
> significant benefit from a hand which is tailored to the _specifics_ of
> the turn by turn particulars and circumstances of each game. That IMO
> is the real reason for the fixation of so many on the Heart.
Is it so hard to get? I never denied that Heart may be a significant
benefit. But I have quite a number of decks where the Heart´s benefit is
not worth the cost (action, pool, target, cardslots ..).
Also I want to note that only 14.7% (5 out of 34) of the TWD in Jeff´s
archive since the legal date of 3rd had the Heart in them. 38.2% of them
(13 out of 34) included Dreams of the Sphinx. Even if I factor that the
Heart was more difficult to own at that time than a Dreams Heart has a
long way to come before topping Dreams as the #1 winning card cycler.
Johannes
atomweaver
> atomweaver schrieb:
>> Whatever a player's deckbuilding skills or a deck's ability to
>> "flow", you'll have a hard time convincing me that they wouldn't gain
>> a significant benefit from a hand which is tailored to the
>> _specifics_ of the turn by turn particulars and circumstances of each
>> game. That IMO is the real reason for the fixation of so many on the
>> Heart.
>
> Is it so hard to get? I never denied that Heart may be a significant
> benefit. But I have quite a number of decks where the Heart´s benefit
> is not worth the cost (action, pool, target, cardslots ..).
>
Understood, before and after my post...
> Also I want to note that only
I question here your use of the word "only"..
> 14.7% (5 out of 34) of the TWD in
> Jeff´s archive since the legal date of 3rd had the Heart in them.
> 38.2% of them (13 out of 34) included Dreams of the Sphinx. Even if I
> factor that the Heart was more difficult to own at that time than a
> Dreams Heart has a long way to come before topping Dreams as the #1
> winning card cycler.
>
Access is actually more than enough IMO to account for Heart being less
active than Dreams. Rares really _really_ REALLY run hot and cold in
3rd Ed, and plenty/most competitive players are unwilling to pay the
after-market price for Heart. Dreams is a reasonable alternative, and a
lot more accessible. Pat Lusk was telling us two weeks ago that he went
through 6 (!!!) boxes of 3rd Ed without seeing a single Heart, only to
draft two in the Sunday draft event at TempleCon. Damn that little
Chinese guy they hired to assemble 3rd Ed boosters!!! ;)
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
witness1
> Johannes Walch <johannes.wa...@vekn.de> wrote innews:es489a$3o9$1...@news01.versatel.de:
I just want to note that I have several hearts, and have had the
opportunity to put them in a variety of decks. I don't think it's a
"goes in every deck" card. I recently discovered that it's not even a
"goes in every Imbued deck" card.
witness1
-win the heart race
nood...@iprimus.com.au
> just recently I played a Kyasid S&B and managed to construct it in a way
> that I usually (of course there can be a really bad draw or shuffle, but
> then again the Heart can be card #90) don´t jam on cards no matter what
> happens, and yes I have managed to that for a lot of other decks.
If you're of the belief that none of those decks would have been made
even better by the option to cycle 3 more cards a turn there's very
little I can do to persuade you otherwise. That you personaly don't
choose to use this card does nto alter the fact that there is no
cycling effect in game which remotely approaches the Heart.
> I played two breed decks lately. The most effective one was a Ravnos
> with 26 Embraces, 6 Delayings and the rest was mostly mastercards. Never
> jammed it.
Obviously any deck which spends near 50% of it's library slots on the
same card isn't going to jam very often. But with no combat defense,
little/no bleed defense, no stealth and little/no intercept, in most
circles a deck like that has other issues to contend with.
Johannes Walch
>> I played two breed decks lately. The most effective one was a Ravnos
>> with 26 Embraces, 6 Delayings and the rest was mostly mastercards. Never
>> jammed it.
>
> Obviously any deck which spends near 50% of it's library slots on the
> same card isn't going to jam very often. But with no combat defense,
> little/no bleed defense, no stealth and little/no intercept, in most
> circles a deck like that has other issues to contend with.
You have no idea. It had 2 appearances in big qualifier tournaments and
each of those it made the finals, getting 1st and 2nd. Having 20+
minions IS good and sine you can play all the Events the other decks
have issues to contend with.
Johannes
nood...@iprimus.com.au
> You have no idea. It had 2 appearances in big qualifier tournaments and
> each of those it made the finals, getting 1st and 2nd. Having 20+
> minions IS good and sine you can play all the Events the other decks
> have issues to contend with.
I'd content in most circles, a deck with no stealth, no intercept,
little/no bleed/vote defense would never get 20 minions on the table.
But I suppose that's a question of meta.
Regardless, you're original contention was that you could think of "a
lot" of deck types that wouldn't benefit from the Heart.
You've listed one.
Jeff Kuta
Actually, he would still benefit, but not as much. He certainly has
actions to spare... ;)
Jeff
Johannes Walch
>> I'd content in most circles, a deck with no stealth, no intercept,
>> little/no bleed/vote defense would never get 20 minions on the table.
>> But I suppose that's a question of meta.
Never underestimate the power of the Master Phase and sheer numbers.
Also factor in the Events. A Veil of Darkness is quite harsh for
intercept decks.
>> Regardless, you're original contention was that you could think of "a
>> lot" of deck types that wouldn't benefit from the Heart.
>>
>> You've listed one.
Actually I listed one *arche*type, brute force Embrace Decks.
Basically any Deck that could not get it except for equipping it "by
foot" w/o additional stealth.
> Actually, he would still benefit, but not as much. He certainly has
> actions to spare... ;)
Yes, but I wouldn´t risk the Heart being stolen AND while I might
benefit slightly I would rather save the pool and create an Embrace than
equip the Heart.
Jeff Kuta
I do agree with you that in such a focused deck with many many
identical cards that the Heart would possibly not be a strong
consideration. I could also see certain card-repetitive combat
archetypes such as weenie Animalism with billions of bats or weenie
Potence with Increased Strength and Thrown Gates (yes, that means you
Grail) receiving less benefit so the Heart would be a tough choice.
But the vast majority of decks, which are all slightly toolboxy
because they do several things (bleed, bounce, intercept, combat,
vote) will still benefit greatly from the Heart.
Jeff
Johannes Walch
Yeah, I love focused decks.
I guess we will be going round in circles if we continue this, I think
the opinions just differ here.
Let´s see in a few month how the Heart reflects in the TWDA.
Now too somehting completely usefull: Gran Madre di Dio
Johannes
Azel
draws the most cards wins," and noticed it continually being reinforced
by success, it'll be very hard for me see this card as anything less
than 5 (or more) stars. is it too strong? i'm tempted to say so, but
there's not enough experience currently to corroborate my initial
assessment. so, i'll just have to wait and see whether my judgment is
correct.
in the meanwhile i'll do my best to live without one. oh, and add a
pinch of item steal more often in my decks. ;)
Johannes Walch
> in the meanwhile i'll do my best to live without one. oh, and add a
> pinch of item steal more often in my decks. ;)
Item steal is probably even more undervalued than vote defense.
So people, give this tech a short, there is so much cool E(broken?!?)
quipment to steal nowadays. And it is so much cheaper because you dont
have to spend the pool nor the 40$ on Ebay.
Johannes