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LSJ- More Saulot Abuse

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XZealot

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Jan 20, 2009, 12:04:26 PM1/20/09
to
Saulot with Enkil Cog taps Enkil Cog at the end of his predators turn
to Spirit Marionette his preys vampire.

Since it is not his minion phase, the Spirit Marrionetted vampire can
not bleed

During Saulot's untap phase, he Khobar Tower's the Spirit Marionetted
minion

Is this correct?

witness1

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Jan 20, 2009, 12:19:09 PM1/20/09
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Assuming your predator doesn't take an action after he gets the
impulse back, yes.

Card text on Spirit Marionette: "+1 stealth action. (D) Take control
of any ready untapped minion until the end of the next action. That
minion must bleed your prey unless he or she must hunt."

-witness1

LSJ

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Jan 20, 2009, 12:31:25 PM1/20/09
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witness1 wrote:
> On Jan 20, 12:04 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
>> Saulot with Enkil Cog taps Enkil Cog at the end of his predators turn
>> to Spirit Marionette his preys vampire.
>>
>> Since it is not his minion phase, the Spirit Marrionetted vampire can
>> not bleed
>>
>> During Saulot's untap phase, he Khobar Tower's the Spirit Marionetted
>> minion
>>
>> Is this correct?
>
> Assuming your predator doesn't take an action after he gets the
> impulse back, yes.

Correct.

Chris Berger

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Jan 20, 2009, 1:02:05 PM1/20/09
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Yeah, if Saulot is your prey and has Enkil Cog on him, you *must*
leave either no minions untapped or 2 minions untapped. Otherwise
you're in for a world of hurt.

Jeff Kuta

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Jan 20, 2009, 1:31:58 PM1/20/09
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Just came here to point out that minion steal is broken, not
Heidelberg Castle.

Jeff

Kevin M.

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Jan 20, 2009, 10:41:09 PM1/20/09
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What makes you believe it isn't correct?


Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
Las Vegas NAQ 2009! http://members.cox.net/vtesinlv/


Kevin M.

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Jan 20, 2009, 10:45:10 PM1/20/09
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Not the fact that the prey (presumably) left all his minions tapped?

Not the fact that most minion stealing (and most actions) need either a
bunch of stealth or for you to leave all your minions tapped for them to
succeed?

No wonder Ben Peal wins so much! BlackDiamond(TM) is broken!

p.s. I thought they printed Waaaambulance in a previous set! ;)

I. M. Bur

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Jan 21, 2009, 4:53:41 AM1/21/09
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>> Just came here to point out that minion steal is broken, not
>> Heidelberg Castle.
>
> Not the fact that the prey (presumably) left all his minions tapped?


Actually having all minions tapped is probably the best defense against
Spirit Marionette played via Enkil Cog. As you probably know, the target
of the SM action has to be untapped. It's pretty hard for Saulot alone
to untap *and* steal a minion during the single action allowed by EC.

--
-bur

Blooded Sand

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Jan 21, 2009, 5:10:02 AM1/21/09
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Saulot with Malks, wooohooo!

xcver

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Jan 21, 2009, 7:08:32 AM1/21/09
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Saulot stealing a fortitude minion from your prey draining blood off
him via heidelberg and then hunting with daring is the dawn is nifty
too :)

Blooded Sand

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Jan 21, 2009, 8:06:21 AM1/21/09
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Saulot stealing, heidelberging to one, then bleeding with fore of will
and daring inf is very cute...

Chris Berger

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Jan 21, 2009, 8:43:34 AM1/21/09
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I'm not sure how that would work either... Your predator acts with
his last minion. During his action, one of your Malks plays Babble to
untap one of his minions. He now has a minion untapped... so he acts
with that minion. Even if it's just to hunt, he can almost always
take some sort of action. Of course, Restricted Vitae would help...
but that assumes there aren't other table actions they can take.
Barring Restricted Vitae, the only way to keep them from acting is to
make them very afraid of being blocked by Saulot. But it's always
preferrable to have your minion borked in combat than to have them
stolen by your prey and removed from the game in a way that gives your
prey X pool... So really, if your prey has Saulot with Enkil Cog, you
either leave 2 minions untapped, or none, always.

Blooded Sand

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Jan 21, 2009, 9:11:18 AM1/21/09
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Pray for stupid prey?

;)

XZealot

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Jan 21, 2009, 11:37:42 AM1/21/09
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>So really, if your prey has Saulot with Enkil Cog, you
> either leave 2 minions untapped, or none, always.

Since your minions come into play untapped, once you see Saulot with
the Enkil Cog, you can not influence any more minions into play. So
Saulot wins by being able to influence more minions into play than
anyone else.

XZealot

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Jan 21, 2009, 11:39:48 AM1/21/09
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On Jan 20, 9:41 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:

> XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
> > Saulot with Enkil Cog taps Enkil Cog at the end of his predators
> > turn to Spirit Marionette his preys vampire.
>
> > Since it is not his minion phase, the Spirit Marrionetted vampire
> > can not bleed
>
> > During Saulot's untap phase, he Khobar Tower's the Spirit
> > Marionetted minion
>
> > Is this correct?
>
> What makes you believe it isn't correct?

The fact that it is relatively easy to accomplish and highly abusive
make it mandatory for me to ask.

XZealot

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Jan 21, 2009, 11:40:43 AM1/21/09
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You can't bleed with Force of Will as Spirit Marionette only steals
UNTAPPED minions.

LSJ

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Jan 21, 2009, 11:41:57 AM1/21/09
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While 1 > 0 (making the "none" difficult to pull off if you bring out a new
minion in your influence phase), sources tell me that

1 < 2

meaning you could leave one already-influenced guy standing when you plan on
bringing a new guy out in your influence phase to make 2.

Unless Saulot is out with the Cog before you get any minions. Then you may be in
trouble.

Blooded Sand

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Jan 21, 2009, 11:43:08 AM1/21/09
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oh yah. sucks, another diabolical plot foiled by my archenemy, Karhd
Tekst. Damn Karhd Tekst...

witness1

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Jan 21, 2009, 12:29:38 PM1/21/09
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Isn't this all moot? The guy you influenced out this turn can't take
an action to cause the Spirit Marionette effect to end before Saulot's
untap, but that doesn't matter because Saulot can't steal the newly
influenced minion during your influence phase either. Saulot can
always steal the minion his prey influences out, but as long as one of
his grand-prey, grand-predator, or predator takes an action before
Saulot gets another turn, the Khobar Tower trick fails.

Sure, if Saulot's the only ready minion (or very close to it), nobody
can ever influence another vamp, but he costs 11, Khobar Towers
requires a Setite, and Saulot has to bleed *his prey* successfully to
get a Cog. If he gets the setup *and* kills enough other minions to
make it work *and* has enough Spirit Marionette to make the trick work
reliably, the table can still get around it by influencing several new
minions out in the same round.

-witness1

XZealot

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Jan 21, 2009, 1:30:15 PM1/21/09
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Saulot can steal ANY untapped minion at the end of his PREDATOR'S
MINION PHASE with Enkil Cog and feed them into the KHOBAR TOWERS and
there is NOTHING that you can do about it with NEUTRAL GUARD unless
you are playing DI/DL or you control an 11cap.

So if anyone OTHER than Saulot's predator influences ANY vampires into
play, then barring DI/DL effect there is very little you can do to
prevent this.

So if you are his PREY/GRANDPREY/GRANDPREDATOR, you risk getting your
newly influenced minion liquidated into pool for Saulot's controller
BEFORE you get the chance to tap him.

So if it takes 4 turns to influence Saulot into play with a Small FoS
(let's say 5 turns) then you can threaten any player's new vampire
with liquidation from turn 6 on into the game.

...but you may think that is reasonable and fun

LSJ

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Jan 21, 2009, 1:29:58 PM1/21/09
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witness1 wrote:
> Isn't this all moot? The guy you influenced out this turn can't take
> an action to cause the Spirit Marionette effect to end before Saulot's
> untap, but that doesn't matter because Saulot can't steal the newly
> influenced minion during your influence phase either. Saulot can
> always steal the minion his prey influences out, but as long as one of
> his grand-prey, grand-predator, or predator takes an action before
> Saulot gets another turn, the Khobar Tower trick fails.

Ah, that, too.

John Flournoy

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Jan 21, 2009, 1:44:28 PM1/21/09
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On Jan 21, 12:30 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:

> Saulot can steal ANY untapped minion at the end of his PREDATOR'S
> MINION PHASE  with Enkil Cog and feed them into the KHOBAR TOWERS and
> there is NOTHING that you can do about it with NEUTRAL GUARD unless
> you are playing DI/DL or you control an 11cap.

He cannot feed them into Khobar Towers unless his Predator has no
untapped minions _after_ he plays Spirit Marionette, no matter whose
minion he takes.

Because Saulot cannot do anything "at the end of his predator's minion
phase"; he does it "after his predator has declared he is done taking
actions."

Because the moment Saulot finishes acting, the predator gets to resume
his minion phase, including taking more actions. And a single action
taken by his predator reverts control of the stolen minion right back
to the orignal owner.

> So if anyone OTHER than Saulot's predator influences ANY vampires into
> play, then barring DI/DL effect there is very little you can do to
> prevent this.

You can say "Hey, leave a guy untapped, Saulot's predator?" Because
(again, since you do not seem to comprehend this) Saulot cannot take a
minion without giving your predator the chance to act again and revert
the stolen minion.

> So if you are his PREY/GRANDPREY/GRANDPREDATOR, you risk getting your
> newly influenced minion liquidated into pool for Saulot's controller
> BEFORE you get the chance to tap him.

Yes, that is true.

On the other hand, if you are anyone at the table, you risk Saulot -
without the Enkil Cog - pulling the "give you a fortitude master,
steal you unblockably, heidleburg and then bleed you burning you"
trick that has been around for literally years. And your minion would
be just as burned before you get the chance to tap him.

> So if it takes 4 turns to influence Saulot into play with a Small FoS
> (let's say 5 turns) then you can threaten any player's new vampire
> with liquidation from turn 6 on into the game.

And if your predator has a single minion that he intends to leave
untapped as a counter to this, your threat to anyone but your predator
is utterly and wholly without teeth.

-John Flournoy

John Flournoy

unread,
Jan 21, 2009, 1:47:40 PM1/21/09
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>
> Saulot can steal ANY untapped minion at the end of his PREDATOR'S
> MINION PHASE  with Enkil Cog and feed them into the KHOBAR TOWERS and
> there is NOTHING that you can do about it with NEUTRAL GUARD unless
> you are playing DI/DL or you control an 11cap.
>
> So if anyone OTHER than Saulot's predator influences ANY vampires into
> play, then barring DI/DL effect there is very little you can do to
> prevent this.

Any of the gazillion ways to steal or burn a location (which Khobar
Towers is) also neuters this strategy, btw, as does Sudden/Washing the
master action to bring it into play.

-John Flournoy

XZealot

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Jan 21, 2009, 1:54:41 PM1/21/09
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On Jan 21, 12:44 pm, John Flournoy <carne...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 21, 12:30 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > Saulot can steal ANY untapped minion at the end of his PREDATOR'S
> > MINION PHASE  with Enkil Cog and feed them into the KHOBAR TOWERS and
> > there is NOTHING that you can do about it with NEUTRAL GUARD unless
> > you are playing DI/DL or you control an 11cap.
>
> He cannot feed them into Khobar Towers unless his Predator has no
> untapped minions _after_ he plays Spirit Marionette, no matter whose
> minion he takes.

<snip everything that John wrote, that I agree with>

Right! So when your predator only has 1 minion left untapped. Saulot
taps Enkil Cog, interupts your predator's turn, and Spirit
Marionette's him to feed him into the Khobar Towers. Of course
Saulot's predator could leave two minions untapped FOR THE REST OF THE
GAME to foil this play. F U N


> > So if anyone OTHER than Saulot's predator influences ANY vampires into
> > play, then barring DI/DL effect there is very little you can do to
> > prevent this.
>
> You can say "Hey, leave a guy untapped, Saulot's predator?" Because
> (again, since you do not seem to comprehend this) Saulot cannot take a
> minion without giving your predator the chance to act again and revert
> the stolen minion.

See above to see what happens when Saulot's predator "leaves a guy
untapped"

> And if your predator has a single minion that he intends to leave
> untapped as a counter to this, your threat to anyone but your predator
> is utterly and wholly without teeth.

Nope, you are just providing ammunition for Saulot

See above to see what happens when Saulot's predator "leaves a guy
untapped"

John Flournoy

unread,
Jan 21, 2009, 1:55:23 PM1/21/09
to

I think it was worth asking.

However, it's also fairly trivially easy to counter as this deck's
predator (make sure you will have a minion left to act after Saulot
does), and reasonably easy to counter as anybody else on the table
(burn or steal the location).

This particular trick was able to be set up roughly equivalently the
moment Saulot was printed (Saulot CI's to Malkavian, puts the madness
network out and proceeds from there). It certainly wasn't being
"highly abused" over the last three years - only a very few Saulot
decks have won tournaments, and none of them were even trying to set
up a Khobar trick.

Thus, I fail to see how this has suddenly gotten so much _more_
abusive than it was in the past - especially since the rule about
'actions that take place on other people's turns' has been changed/
clarified, making it significantly _easier_ to foil (since Saulot
cannot prevent his predator from having a chance to act again, unlike
in the past where MMNetwork actions could not have subsequent actions
by the predator.)

-John Flournoy

XZealot

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Jan 21, 2009, 1:57:04 PM1/21/09
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Yes, if you have it in your hand on the turn that it comes into play,
but if not then Saulot can do ALOT of damage prior to someone playing
a card that destroys/steals a location.

John Flournoy

unread,
Jan 21, 2009, 1:58:56 PM1/21/09
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On Jan 21, 12:30 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:

> So if it takes 4 turns to influence Saulot into play with a Small FoS
> (let's say 5 turns) then you can threaten any player's new vampire
> with liquidation from turn 6 on into the game.

Later than that, because you still have to get Enkil Cog onto Saulot,
and there's no guarantee that you'll be able to successfully,
immediately bleed your prey with him - if your prey bounces or reduces
your bleeds with Saulot (which may very well happen a lot of the
time), it may be significantly later than that before you can get a
Cog onto him to start making any sort of threat.

-John Flournoy

witness1

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Jan 21, 2009, 2:27:54 PM1/21/09
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On Jan 21, 1:54 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
> On Jan 21, 12:44 pm, John Flournoy <carne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 21, 12:30 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > > Saulot can steal ANY untapped minion at the end of his PREDATOR'S
> > > MINION PHASE with Enkil Cog and feed them into the KHOBAR TOWERS and
> > > there is NOTHING that you can do about it with NEUTRAL GUARD unless
> > > you are playing DI/DL or you control an 11cap.
>
> > He cannot feed them into Khobar Towers unless his Predator has no
> > untapped minions _after_ he plays Spirit Marionette, no matter whose
> > minion he takes.
>
> <snip everything that John wrote, that I agree with>
>
> Right! So when your predator only has 1 minion left untapped. Saulot
> taps Enkil Cog, interupts your predator's turn, and Spirit
> Marionette's him to feed him into the Khobar Towers. Of course
> Saulot's predator could leave two minions untapped FOR THE REST OF THE
> GAME to foil this play. F U N

Or, starting the turn Saulot's controller has the entire combo in
play, everyone can tap out all of their minions every turn (and still
be able to influence out more minions safely, contrary to your
comments above).

-witness1

witness1

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Jan 21, 2009, 2:40:49 PM1/21/09
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Correction - when someone besides Saulot's predator influences a
minion, Saulot's predator will need to leave 2 minions untapped.

-witness1

XZealot

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Jan 21, 2009, 2:42:17 PM1/21/09
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How can you influence out more minions safely? They come into play
untapped? They are vulnerable until they get a chance to tap.

How do you tap your newly influenced vampire (barring card effects
such as Gran Madre di Dio, Italy) before Saulot gets a chance at them?

XZealot

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Jan 21, 2009, 2:44:35 PM1/21/09
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Right, so 1 player, Saulot's predator, effectively doesn't get to play
as he has to leave 2 of his minions untapped to foil the Saulot combo.

So Saulot's predator gets to play with his thumb up his butt for 2
hours. Are we having fun yet?

John Flournoy

unread,
Jan 21, 2009, 4:34:35 PM1/21/09
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On Jan 21, 12:54 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
> > And if your predator has a single minion that he intends to leave
> > untapped as a counter to this, your threat to anyone but your predator
> > is utterly and wholly without teeth.
>
> Nope, you are just providing ammunition for Saulot
>
> See above to see what happens when Saulot's predator "leaves a guy
> untapped"

This is true, but not my point.

You specifically mentioned how Saulot can threaten people who are not
your predator. My point is that if you are one of those players, that
threat can be countered by cutting a deal with Saulot's predator in
some fashion, and if the predator is willing to do so, Saulot has no
easy ability to threaten you.

Yes, he can continue to threaten his predator in such a circumstance -
but not anybody else, unless the predator allows it.

-John Flournoy

John Flournoy

unread,
Jan 21, 2009, 4:39:26 PM1/21/09
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Assuming Saulot has _both_ drawn his combo promptly, and found a way
to get the Cog into play (which is by no means guaranteed, and
certainly not guaranteed to work as soon as possible.)

-John Flournoy

Salem

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Jan 21, 2009, 4:44:08 PM1/21/09
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XZealot wrote:

> Right, so 1 player, Saulot's predator, effectively doesn't get to play
> as he has to leave 2 of his minions untapped to foil the Saulot combo.
>
> So Saulot's predator gets to play with his thumb up his butt for 2
> hours. Are we having fun yet?

There are just so many different ways that things can go wrong for the
Saulot deck that I don't think it's going to be such a huge issue. But
by all means, go nuts and see if you can break it. I imagine it will be
quite nasty when it goes off, but then a lot of combos are. That's why
people play combos, rather than just GtU all the time.

--
salem
(replace 'hotmail' with 'gmail' to email)

John Flournoy

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Jan 21, 2009, 4:44:44 PM1/21/09
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Of course, unless Saulot is consistently drawing ways to untap (freak
drives, or other methods) Saulot is -also- sitting with his thumb up
his butt, remaining untapped in the hopes that he'll be able to pull
this trick off.

In fact, I'd expect that most of the time this deck is likely to give
Saulot's prey a very, very free hand - he certainly isn't going to
block much, because it quickly gets expensive to continually block and
yet be untapped for the predator's turn.

-John Flournoy

Salem

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Jan 21, 2009, 4:46:05 PM1/21/09
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let's not forget other people playing cards on Saulot. Like Bum's Rush.

Or the Saulot player being bled for 15 before Saulot even comes out.

or...etc.

Salem

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Jan 21, 2009, 4:47:59 PM1/21/09
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I, personally, don't consider it 'relatively easy to accomplish'. But I
am happy for people to ask these sorts of qns. :)

Blooded Sand

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Jan 21, 2009, 4:48:17 PM1/21/09
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Well, there IS minor irritation. But thats only minorly irritating...

John Flournoy

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Jan 21, 2009, 4:52:25 PM1/21/09
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There's a couple of ways to do it, but they all generally require
blood expenditures (thus the quickly gets expensive part.)

Minor Irritation's a good answer, though; I always assume it requires
a blood.

-John Flournoy

witness1

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Jan 21, 2009, 4:56:44 PM1/21/09
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> > Or, starting the turn Saulot's controller has the entire combo in
> > play, everyone can tap out all of their minions every turn (and still
> > be able to influence out more minions safely, contrary to your
> > comments above).
>
> How can you influence out more minions safely? They come into play
> untapped? They are vulnerable until they get a chance to tap.
>
> How do you tap your newly influenced vampire (barring card effects
> such as Gran Madre di Dio, Italy) before Saulot gets a chance at them?

You don't have to tap them. You just have to have one person take one
action between the time when Saulot can steal them and the Saulot
players untap phase.

So I guess nobody at the table except Saulot's predator can be
guaranteed to safely influence a new minion, if the predator wishes.

> > Correction - when someone besides Saulot's predator influences a
> > minion, Saulot's predator will need to leave 2 minions untapped.
>
> Right, so 1 player, Saulot's predator, effectively doesn't get to play
> as he has to leave 2 of his minions untapped to foil the Saulot combo.
>
> So Saulot's predator gets to play with his thumb up his butt for 2
> hours.  Are we having fun yet?

Someone's influencing a new minion every turn for 2 hours? Plus, if
the new minion is small enough, or controlled by your own predator, it
might be in your interest to let your prey eat it.

And all of this ignores every other kind of interaction that might
stop Saulot from doing his trick. Besides all the various mechanisms
already mentioned in the thread, there are:

rushing and beating the heck out of Saulot
contesting Enkil Cog
tapping Saulot with master cards or actions
Pentex Subversion

I'm sure you could come up with others if you tried.

-witness1

bwross

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Jan 21, 2009, 5:35:09 PM1/21/09
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On Jan 21, 2:44 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
> Right, so 1 player, Saulot's predator, effectively doesn't get to play
> as he has to leave 2 of his minions untapped to foil the Saulot combo.
>
> So Saulot's predator gets to play with his thumb up his butt for 2
> hours.  Are we having fun yet?

Not quite. It's a multiplayer game... if one player has a table
winning combo out (or just something annoying like a bunch of Events)
it will be in the interests of most of the other players to see them
gone. In this situation, Saulot's predator is the ultimate controller
in any ultimatum games that other players might pull to make him do
anything... if you aren't playing ball, you better be tapping out
because Saulot's predator doesn't have to bail you out (sometimes it's
okay to let your prey bloat, especially when it's at the expense of
players you can't deal with). So Saulot's predator is far from not
playing for 2 hours... he may not be taking as many actions or playing
as many cards, but he should be making up for that by continuously
trying to negotiate Saulot off the table.

Brent Ross

James Coupe

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Jan 21, 2009, 5:50:25 PM1/21/09
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Salem <kell...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>let's not forget other people playing cards on Saulot. Like Bum's Rush.
>
>Or the Saulot player being bled for 15 before Saulot even comes out.

This is worth remembering.

Any vampire with OBE coming out is, basically, planning to steal your
vampires. Even if this isn't true, assume it's true. It's pretty much
the power play.

If an OBE vampire comes out and you can't handle that, remember that you
can't gain more VPs if you're dead. So be prepared to back-oust the
player, and negotiate with other people appropriately. A Dem deck can
KS backwards. A politics deck can throw damage backwards. A rush deck
can rush. A lockdown deck can lock down. And so on. About the only
deck style that's really devoid of options here is a tunnel vision
stealth-bleed deck, and I don't honestly have a problem with a one-
dimensional, powerful deck type having a flaw.

Of course, if players will treat V:TES as solitaire and not respond
appropriately to other people's plays, they deserve to be beaten. If
they build decks where they *can't* respond to other people's powerful
plays and get eaten by someone else's powerful play, I can't shed too
many tears.

But honestly, OBE is such a huge target to aim at, anyone who's ever
seen a Spirit Marionette used well should think about how to kick that
player about, if they can't cope with the effects.

--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D YOU ARE IN ERROR.
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 NO-ONE IS SCREAMING.
13D7E668C3695D623D5D THANK YOU FOR YOUR COOPERATION.

Anthony Coleman

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Jan 21, 2009, 6:14:15 PM1/21/09
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On Jan 21, 4:39 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
> On Jan 20, 9:41 pm, "Kevin M." <youw...@imaspammer.org> wrote:
>
> > XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
> > > Saulot with Enkil Cog taps Enkil Cog at the end of his predators
> > > turn to Spirit Marionette his preys vampire.
>
> > > Since it is not his minion phase, the Spirit Marrionetted vampire
> > > can not bleed
>
> > > During Saulot's untap phase, he Khobar Tower's the Spirit
> > > Marionetted minion
>
> > > Is this correct?
>
> > What makes you believe it isn't correct?
>
> The fact that it is relatively easy to accomplish and highly abusive
> make it mandatory for me to ask.

Its not that easy to achieve and as John has repeatedly pointed out
there are many ways to neuter it.

This clutch of WAAAA!!! threads about minion stealing, based on your
currecnt exp. of this combo in JOL i assume remind me of when Ector
was complaining that OOT rotshit rush was BROKEN! because he got
tonked by it a few times, I really cant see the difference aside from
the fact he was laughed out of the house and this is still being
debated.

I look to the deck challenge thread with interest.

Anthony

jason...@iinet.net.au

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Jan 21, 2009, 8:25:59 PM1/21/09
to

> I'm sure you could come up with others if you tried.

Yeah I'm not sure Norm is saying that the deck is horribly broken, or
that there aren't ways around it. I think his main concern (and
forgive me if I'm misinterpreting, Norm) is that it would be a whole
bunch of no fun for certain decks to sit next to a Saulot/Setite/
Towers deck.

The deck probably wouldn't win, and whoever built it probably would
rip it apart after he realised that it didn't win (unless he's the
type of player who enjoys ruining other decks rather than gaining vps,
in which case he might love it), but those few games you spend playing
against it might be thoroughly unenjoyable.

I'm sure we can all think of other match-ups that are totally un-fun,
and i'm not sure being boned by Saulot/Towers would be any worse than
being smashed by a combat deck before you get to act, or playing a
Temptation deck against Imbued, or whatever. I just think he's putting
up his hand and saying "this would really suck in certain situations".

jase

XZealot

unread,
Jan 21, 2009, 8:33:16 PM1/21/09
to

> Yes, he can continue to threaten his predator in such a circumstance -
> but not anybody else, unless the predator allows it.

right, but Saulot's controller doesn't have to make any decision at
all until his predator has chosen to end his minion phase whether his
predator has minions untapped or not. So basically if Saulot's
predator does something foolish like "not leave two minions untapped"
then any player at the table with untapped minions is vulnerable.

It's sort of the prisoners dilemma

John Flournoy

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Jan 21, 2009, 9:02:29 PM1/21/09
to

Sure. But that dilemma isn't necessarily one that his cross-table
people care about.

Any minion that gets influenced out once the combo is set up is
potentially at risk.

But not EVERY minion is at risk - Saulot can't eat more than one in a
turn. If your predator brought somebody out, your risk is
significantly reduced when you bring your own out.

And if the predator announces (after Saulot's turn) that he's going to
make sure Saulot can't Cog-eat anyone before Saulot's next turn, then
the other three players can bring out whoever they like with impunity
- and I'm betting that Saulot's predator in such a case can likely
convince the table to give him assistance in ousting Saulot in
exchange for protecting them from him...

-John Flournoy

XZealot

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Jan 21, 2009, 9:24:02 PM1/21/09
to

Okay, he can't Cog-Eat someone but he can Spirit Marrionette/
Heidleburg/Freakdrive AND threaten to Cog Eat someone.

XZealot

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Jan 21, 2009, 9:27:20 PM1/21/09
to

Right, until then it's just spirit marionette/Heidleberg cruise
control until you can get it off.

XZealot

unread,
Jan 21, 2009, 9:28:13 PM1/21/09
to
On Jan 21, 3:46 pm, Salem <kella...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> John Flournoy wrote:
> > On Jan 21, 12:30 pm, XZealot <xzea...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> >> So if it takes 4 turns to influence Saulot into play with a Small FoS
> >> (let's say 5 turns) then you can threaten any player's new vampire
> >> with liquidation from turn 6 on into the game.
>
> > Later than that, because you still have to get Enkil Cog onto Saulot,
> > and there's no guarantee that you'll be able to successfully,
> > immediately bleed your prey with him - if your prey bounces or reduces
> > your bleeds with Saulot (which may very well happen a lot of the
> > time), it may be significantly later than that before you can get a
> > Cog onto him to start making any sort of threat.
>
> let's not forget other people playing cards on Saulot. Like Bum's Rush.

I the game I am in. He was rushed 4 times by War Ghouls by his prey
to no avail.

XZealot

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Jan 21, 2009, 9:30:19 PM1/21/09
to
> This clutch of  WAAAA!!! threads about minion stealing, based on your
> currecnt exp. of this combo in JOL i assume remind me of when Ector
> was complaining that OOT rotshit rush was BROKEN! because he got
> tonked by it a few times,

OMG, you found out. XZealot=Ector!!!!!

> I really cant see the difference aside from
> the fact he was laughed out of the house and this is still being
> debated.
>
> I look to the deck challenge thread with interest.

Check it out. I also posted the link to the game where he has already
ousted his Econo-Ghoul prey who spent every WarGhoul action
backrushing Saulot.

XZealot

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Jan 21, 2009, 9:32:09 PM1/21/09