Weenie Presence - Ways around that?
Magnus
Presence Bleed deck, basically Social Charms, S:CE cards, Effective
Managments and Presence skill cards, with some pool gain and other
random annoyance thrown in.
Now, I have even presented the deck here, and gotten good advice how
to counter it, but the problem is, this guy plays this deck only every
once in a while. He normally plays other decks, a Toreador Masika and
Alexandra, which is easy to deal with if you play a fast bleed deck
but hell to get around if you let it build itself up; a rush Pot/Cel
deck with Theo Bell and Beast or a straight Dom/Obf bleed deck, which
inflicts huge amounts of pool damage.
Obviously, it´s not enough to prepare for the weenie deck, as the
other three decks will be largely unaffected by weenie hosers.
My first question now is: What can you do if a Weenie Presence deck
hits the table, and you , as its prey, are not prepared to deal with
it? If you are the prey of this deck, normally you are out after 4 to
5 rounds, and then can sit around for at least an hour, resenting the
existance of this decktype in special and weenies in general.
I know that a lot of you will say now, that people should help you
across table, but consider the possibility that the grandprey and
grandpredator are unable to effectively do something for you ( maybe
the grandprey is again testing out a new deck design, which does
nothing at all and the grandpredator is building up a Lasombra Weenie
Horde ). If normal condistions apply, the Presence Weenie Horde will
happily barrel through at least two Meths before anyone can raise a
decent defense, while building up pool through the Social Charms.
Second question: What cards/card combinations can you recommend, which
help against this weenie crap but are not completely useless against
other decks ( Examples of this type would be Snipe Hunt, Aranthebes,
Barth, etc. ) ?
Magnus
Izaak
works like a charm.
I've also used that "<thingie> Hold" card from Anarchs to make a combat
card of your choice cost more blood (Majesty costing 2 is gonna totally
hose a deck like that). Alternatively you can play Bleeding the Vine to
"sudden" their Effective Managements which will seriously limit the
amount of minions you need to deal with.
Generally speaking, however, presence weenie is nigh unstoppable when
not prepared for it. Then again, so is dem or dom weenie.
pallando
more resilient against this type of deck. If your deck has a good deck of
dealing with the presence weenies once you get into combat, all the better!
Several options come to mind: Immortal Grapple, Rotschreck, Psyche!,
Telepathic Tracking. Fast Reaction also is an option, but to a lesser extent
because you need an additional vampire for that.
If you don't use any of the combat actions above anything that lets you
block more than once helps: Cat's Guidance, S:CE that untaps you (Majesty,
Earth Meld, Bond with the Mountain), Eternal Vigilance, Speak with Spirits,
Guard Dogs, Rats Warning.
Another quite different approach would be to play a weenie intercept deck.
With a few Wakes you should be able to block all the weenie presence action
and maybe also torporize some vampires, depending on your deck.
Last but not least, any combat deck that can attack several times a turn can
stop a weenie horde. Weenie rush or multi-rush via Freak Drive come to mind.
Any serious combat deck should have a way around S:CE. The normal problems
of combat deck apply. You need to put pressure on your prey as well, and you
shouldn't wipe out your predator completely.
As you said youself, table cooperation is necessary if you want to prevent a
weenie deck from sweeping. Point out how dangerous it is to everyone else.
Normally you will lose quite some pool to the numerous bleed actions. That
should prove your point. Even a bad deck can help you, e.g. by diablerizing
the odd weenie that ended up in torpor, by blocking undirected action, or by
attacking via a Haven Uncovered that you played.
Normally I don't like those magic bullets that hose only a certain deck
type. So I don't like to play cards that are only weenie hosers. But all the
options I mentioned are viable against many other deck types as well and
won't be useless if you don't face a weenie deck all day.
regards
pallando
--
pallando(at)gmx(dot)at
Izaak
you
> more resilient against this type of deck. If your deck has a good deck
of
> dealing with the presence weenies once you get into combat, all the
better!
> Several options come to mind: Immortal Grapple, Rotschreck, Psyche!,
> Telepathic Tracking. Fast Reaction also is an option, but to a lesser
extent
> because you need an additional vampire for that.
You need a pretty fucking unhealthy amount of wakes to deal with
presence weenie. Playing 3/4/5 cap potence kinda hoses it because of
grapple. Any other form of midcap combat simply doesn't work.
> If you don't use any of the combat actions above anything that lets
you
> block more than once helps: Cat's Guidance, S:CE that untaps you
(Majesty,
> Earth Meld, Bond with the Mountain), Eternal Vigilance, Speak with
Spirits,
> Guard Dogs, Rats Warning.
Again, you need so much of these cards to stop the horde, it's not
healthy to play it like that.
> Another quite different approach would be to play a weenie intercept
deck.
> With a few Wakes you should be able to block all the weenie presence
action
> and maybe also torporize some vampires, depending on your deck.
He was asking how to deal with presence weenie in a normal deck; not
asking for a specific counter.
> Last but not least, any combat deck that can attack several times a
turn can
> stop a weenie horde. Weenie rush or multi-rush via Freak Drive come to
mind.
> Any serious combat deck should have a way around S:CE. The normal
problems
> of combat deck apply. You need to put pressure on your prey as well,
and you
> shouldn't wipe out your predator completely.
The *last* thing that's good for a rush deck is a presence weenie deck,
or heck, a weenie ANYTHING deck. The normal problems of a combat deck
don't apply. Normally, you can just eat the pool damage for a while,
focus on your prey and give warning shots to the right every once in a
while. With pre weenie behind you you'll be spending each and every turn
to keep his minion count below 4 and that's only if you draw into SCE
hosers consistently enough, which narrows the options down to pot
weenie/smallcap and fatima multirush.
Of course you'll hand your grandpredator the table either way...
Smiling Tom
> Second question: What cards/card combinations can you recommend, which
> help against this weenie crap but are not completely useless against
> other decks ( Examples of this type would be Snipe Hunt, Aranthebes,
> Barth, etc. ) ?
>
> Magnus
Atonements & magnums. You can chose the cel angle, the aus angle or both
aus/cel, but either option is good against other deck types.
Curevei
>We have a player who plays a most annoying ( and effective ) Weenie
>Presence Bleed deck, basically Social Charms, S:CE cards, Effective
>Managments and Presence skill cards, with some pool gain and other
>random annoyance thrown in.
>Now, I have even presented the deck here, and gotten good advice how
>to counter it, but the problem is, this guy plays this deck only every
>once in a while. He normally plays other decks, a Toreador Masika and
>Alexandra, which is easy to deal with if you play a fast bleed deck
>but hell to get around if you let it build itself up; a rush Pot/Cel
>deck with Theo Bell and Beast or a straight Dom/Obf bleed deck, which
>inflicts huge amounts of pool damage.
>other three decks will be largely unaffected by weenie hosers.
So, the weenie deck is effective. Is it as effective as the other decks? One
assumes yes, otherwise there's the discouragement to playing it.
>My first question now is: What can you do if a Weenie Presence deck
>hits the table, and you , as its prey, are not prepared to deal with
>it? If you are the prey of this deck, normally you are out after 4 to
>5 rounds, and then can sit around for at least an hour, resenting the
>existance of this decktype in special and weenies in general.
Do nothing to your prey and get everyone at the table to try to kill the weenie
deck. The reality is that a strong speed deck pretty much guarantees to oust
its prey. The discouragement to such a deck comes in preventing it from
winning tables as often as another deck may and peer pressure.
There is one possibility for surviving a speed predator, though how well it
will work is debatable. If you have seat switching, you might be able to get
out from under it.
>I know that a lot of you will say now, that people should help you
>across table, but consider the possibility that the grandprey and
>grandpredator are unable to effectively do something for you ( maybe
>the grandprey is again testing out a new deck design, which does
>nothing at all and the grandpredator is building up a Lasombra Weenie
>Horde ). If normal condistions apply, the Presence Weenie Horde will
>happily barrel through at least two Meths before anyone can raise a
>decent defense, while building up pool through the Social Charms.
Then, you're screwed. Well, *you* were always screwed. If the table doesn't
match up right, it's screwed. But, the game has moved so much more towards
control that it's fairly likely something can be done before it gets 3 VPs and
reasonably likely something can be done before 2 unless its grandprey just
can't defend.
>Second question: What cards/card combinations can you recommend, which
>help against this weenie crap but are not completely useless against
>other decks ( Examples of this type would be Snipe Hunt, Aranthebes,
>Barth, etc. ) ?
Every deck could run Aranthebes. Other weenie hosers either require building
decks along certain lines or aren't that good. Could always emphasize
acceleration - getting minions out faster - in general deck construction.
There's rarely a disadvantage to transferring faster, and sometimes, something
like first turn Info Highway can just give you a game.
And, while getting the first guy out faster might be helpful, you also may want
to limit your total transfers. One vamp may be nearly as good on defense as
two, depending upon your deck build, and gives you a cushion and sends a strong
message to the table that something needs to be done.
The Doctor
> We have a player who plays a most annoying ( and effective ) Weenie
> Presence Bleed deck, basically Social Charms, S:CE cards, Effective
I find that Deflection works nicely :)
Unhealthy amounts of Deflection :)
A pain once you get to only 2 players, but ALWAYS useful untill then.
Well, barring that political deck of course.
But dominate and auspex combine so well it might as well be bleed
reduction, and occasional intercept or telepathic misdirection.
//Doc.
--
"Wees jezelf, er zijn al zoveel anderen" - Loesje
begin Your_MS_program_incorrectly_interprets_this_as_an_attachment.txt
RavATwoFaces
Atonement
deflections
TP counter
TP misdirection
Parity shift (if you have princes)
Carver's Meat Packing and Storage
Elysium: Sforzesco Castle
And if you don't have a weenie deck also a mix of EVENTS, first of all:
Nightmares upon Nightmares
Thirst
(The new inquisition)
Best deranges!
RavATwoFaces
Emmanuel Martin
-> For vote decks
Switch places
Ancilla empoweremnt
Ancient Influence
are natural elements of your strategy
-> For ally deck
Ally decks generate enough rushes to screw a weenie's combat defense
fairly easily. Don't forget the pulled fangs.
-> For rush decks
Rush and screw combat ends. If you can't screw combat ends with your
combat deck, improve your deck. Don't forget Carver (a very effective
weenie hooser as well as blood generator) and pulled fnags (a cheap
alternative to burning vampires).
-> For bleed decks
Go faster. Deflect. Pray. Basically you are in trouble.
-> For wall decks
Hey you are supposed to be a wall. Time to prove it.
Emmit Svenson
> Second question: What cards/card combinations can you recommend, which
> help against this weenie crap but are not completely useless against
> other decks ( Examples of this type would be Snipe Hunt, Aranthebes,
> Barth, etc. ) ?
Weenie Animalism is death on weenie Presence. Lots of untap, lots of
permanent intercept, lots of crows, lots of taste of vitae. Run them
out of Majesty, run them out of blood, block their hunts and torporize
them until they're ready to make a deal. It's great against many
decktypes, although full-forward bleed as your prey will be hard to
catch.
David Zopf
"Magnus" <magn...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:70eabfe1.04070...@posting.google.com...
> My first question now is: What can you do if a Weenie Presence deck
> hits the table, and you , as its prey, are not prepared to deal with
> it?
Most of your recourse is in negotiative efforts.
Your predator will be running fast, so for a start, I'd shore up the
defense. Take no actions at all, and inform your prey that they have carte
blanche to do as they wish with their turn, so long as they don't disrupt
your minions (ie backwards rush). If the weenie pre bleeder is going to
seriously disrupt the table balance, take that to its iterative extreme, and
make it clear as to the root reason why (your prey's choice of deck). This
tactic alone should give the rest of the table enough incentive to either 1)
eliminate the pre deck or 2)eliminate you. 2) was a foregone conclusion, if
you weren't prepared for fast bleed, then you were nothing more than a speed
bump anyways. If they decide that you are the problem, then its
short-sighted, but there isn't much you can do about it. Most players will
realize that helping the pre bleeder is not going to get them the win, and
will go along with coercive tactics...
The trick is to make the presence bleeder's first VP a phyrric victory.
If they realize early on that you are dedicating all your resources into
defense, they may have a harder time getting the oust. This may be enough
to slow them down, so that you can get a reasonable game going. (Even if
you can't, you are usually rewarded with seeing them stall out against their
next prey).
Another tactic is to choose one angle of the presence bleeder's game, and
diproportionately deplete that angle to the extent you possibly can. If you
feel you can deal with the bleed actions (say, you've got deflections), then
take every opportuinty to force out the S:CE when you can, leaving them with
the deck tactic for which you are better prepared. Even if you're caught
flat-footed, there is bound to be one aspect of the deck that you do feel
more confident about yoru deck handling. When you can, deal with both,
providing the other, less cross-table enabled players a chance to help out
(the deflection angle above; deflect a bleed to a pre-informed combat deck
which has a ready untapped minion available for the block. You don't need
the combat deck's permission, and if you inform them a round ahead of time,
they can deal with at least one combat).
> I know that a lot of you will say now, that people should help you
> across table, but consider the possibility that the grandprey and
> grandpredator are unable to effectively do something for you ( maybe
> the grandprey is again testing out a new deck design, which does
> nothing at all and the grandpredator is building up a Lasombra Weenie
> Horde ).
Yeah, this I have an out-of-game problem with. There should be a general
expectation in casual play as to the relative level of competitiveness of
decks being brought to the table. I like the Boston VTES groups' adopted
spectrum, from 'trash bin decks' deliberately filled with the dregs of a
collcation, to 'Bring It!' tournament level play. They've got about three
or four levels in between. Your above scenario suggests that either you
haven't adopted something similar in your group for casual play, or that the
weenie pre bleeder is unaware of them, or that maybe he just likes to stomp
on other's fun. Formalizing this level of competition is quite typical, and
the deck contents need not be disclosed so the game remains something of a
suprise. I'd encourage you to consider it. Its never fun when four players
are trying to tweak concepts or try out niche decks if the fifth is playing
Cypt Machine or Short Leash Bleed...
> Second question: What cards/card combinations can you recommend, which
> help against this weenie crap but are not completely useless against
> other decks ( Examples of this type would be Snipe Hunt, Aranthebes,
> Barth, etc. ) ?
>
Cold Amber's Hold. A weenie pre deck relies upon two cards; Social Charm
and Majesty. More costly cards (Legal Manip.) deplete the blood total too
quickly. CA's Hold can accelerate the blood loss (through its presence, or
its removal), which can critically slow down the Pre bleeder (forcing them
to hunt is almost as valuable as torporizing them). CA's Hold is generally
useful, although less so for other decks. You can conceivably cycle it to
make a rush deck a bit more pricey. As with any defense, it can be cycled
against a non-optimal target for a lesser (but still positive) benefit.
DaveZ
Atom Weaver
Darby Keeney
> I have ... gotten good advice how to counter it.
Ok - and you got lots more here.
> My first question now is: What can you do if a Weenie Presence deck
> hits the table, and you, as its prey, are not prepared to deal with
> it?
So we should try to answer THIS question...finding a deck-independent
way to deal with WeePreBleed.
Too bad that there simply isn't a magic bullet :( When the weenies
get up to speed the way they should and you're unprepared, they're
nearly unstoppable. But here are some suggestions from someone who
occasionally dusts of a weenie Presence deck for tournaments.
1) Table assistance.
Really the only tool that's always at your disposal. Apply influence.
Cajole. Beg. If all else fails, threaten.
Depending on the metagame, you may be able to find "heads-up" players
with the ability (POT, CEL) to whack-a-mole or six for you. Or
someone to give some vote assistance across the table. Maybe everyone
will agree to bounce big bleeds at the weenie player and limit his
accumlation of minions.
Unfortunately, even if you eradicate your weenie predator, all you've
done is trade problems - you've got a fresh predator with 6 shiny new
pool. And he's just as bloodthirsty as the last one guy sitting to
your right. But what other options did you have?
2) Have balls of steel - take it like a man and hand-jam your predator
Almost every weenie Presence bleed deck is basically a tap-and-run
design. They carry a lot of dodge/S:CE, often 1 SCE per 2 1/2 to 3
action cards. So stop blocking, just like you do with
stealth-bleeders to jam them on action modifiers. If the Presence
deck is true to form, you'll eat a few bleeds and they'll jam up on
masters and combat avoidance.
Unlike dealing with stealth-bleed, you'll need your grand-predator to
know what you're doing. It isn't helpful for that guy to carelessly
initiate a lot of non-lethal combat and cycle the bleed cards back
into your predator's hand.
Your job is to go about your business, regaining pool (not spending
too much) and trying to oust your prey. Be careful to avoid D actions
at your predator or 0-stealth undirected actions that he might leap at
to cycle combat.
3) Be the wall
Probably the least effective strategy, as you effectively give up on
actively trying to oust your prey. But it might keep you in the game
if you come close to matching your predators minion count, after
everything else is said and done. So, influence your tiniest minions
and deal with the sub-optimal use of your library.
Then, tell your predator the heat is off and you're just trying to be
a big speed bump. If you can find a way to share pool with your prey,
do it. He'll develop an illusion of safety and you may be able to
sneak an ousting bleed in as the game progresses.
4) Move seats - as soon as possible.
Pretty straightforward - though in the games I usually get stuck in,
there never seems to be a "right place" to move. Even if you can
figure out a desirable place to be, you may have to bend to the will
of the table to get the vote to pass. Do it without question. Any
other seat is better than the one you're in right now.
> Second question: What cards/card combinations can you recommend, which
> help against this weenie crap but are not completely useless against
> other decks
Easier question, and I'll stick to add-in modules rather than central
themes. I'll make suggestions in decreasing "order of usefulness in
deck"
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Succubus Club. Cheesey, but
effective and it is potentially useful in any deck. Use it to share
pool with anyone you can spare some. As a last blow, it offers good
spite-value. Right before you die, give all your minions and the Club
to your grand-predator or prey.
Aranthebes is of some use in any deck, though serious presence bleed
(+2 bleed actions & Aire of Elation) will hardly notice. But just
rememeber that you might end up contesting Aranthebes with your
weenie-based predator - savvy weenie players carry it solely to
contest.
Major Boon may offer some deterrent against any power bleed deck.
Drop 2-3 of these on your predator and he'll think twice about
dropping large actions on you. I find this card underused and think
it might have some utility even in some DOM or AUS decks (deflect a
1-bleed and boon it, you then have a permanent one-shot deflection
sitting on the table.)
I suggest that any non-weenie deck might consider carrying Ancilla
Empowerment/Anarchist Uprising. Not having votes of your own isn't a
problem - all the big voters will usually side with you against the
wimps unless the vote actually wipes out the weenie player (and
sometimes even then).
Atonement+Guardian Angel is an effective hard stop against weenie
Presence (but not Dominate). Unfortunately, it is pricey, slow and a
little unreliable. Guns are more reliable (you'll carry more guns in
your deck than Angels), but your designated blocker is out of action
for 2 turns insteads of 1 - and you'll likely be punished during the
extra turn of free-reign bleeding.
Regards,
Darby
Magnus
> Aranthebes goes a long way, but a Sniper Rifle/Atonement combo also
> works like a charm.
Yeah, I thought about that, too, but there愀 one little problem:
Atonement can be burned. Only way I扉e found around that yet is using
Special Report for non-Prince decks.
> I've also used that "<thingie> Hold" card from Anarchs to make a combat
> card of your choice cost more blood (Majesty costing 2 is gonna totally
> hose a deck like that). Alternatively you can play Bleeding the Vine to
> "sudden" their Effective Managements which will seriously limit the
> amount of minions you need to deal with.
I prefer Cold Ambers Hold to Chirams Hold, because the affected player
has to actually waste actions to get rid of the card, instead of just
discarding it. One discarded Majesty won愒 do anything major, if you
got 15 more waiting, but those 4 blood can be hugely annoying to a
weenie player. Good idea, in total. :)
> Generally speaking, however, presence weenie is nigh unstoppable when
> not prepared for it. Then again, so is dem or dom weenie.
True enough. :)
Magnus
Magnus
> Generally speaking, a good number of Wakes / Forced Awakenings makes you
> more resilient against this type of deck. If your deck has a good deck of
> dealing with the presence weenies once you get into combat, all the better!
> Several options come to mind: Immortal Grapple, Rotschreck, Psyche!,
> Telepathic Tracking. Fast Reaction also is an option, but to a lesser extent
> because you need an additional vampire for that.
I扉e seldom seen a deck use Fast Reaction, simply due to two vampires
being untapped being the prerequisite.
The normal problem with the S:CE hosers is that the weenie player can
happily ignore having one or two of his minions in torpor. You, on the
other hand, need to draw into the next anti-S:CE card, of which one
normally plays eight to ten in one deck. He has about 20 S:CE cards
against that.
> If you don't use any of the combat actions above anything that lets you
> block more than once helps: Cat's Guidance, S:CE that untaps you (Majesty,
> Earth Meld, Bond with the Mountain), Eternal Vigilance, Speak with Spirits,
> Guard Dogs, Rats Warning.
This is more plausible, simply due to giving you a second block
possibility. I must admit, though, that I regard the animalism untap
cards as very inferior to the disciplineless untappers, simply because
they only work against bleeds.
> Another quite different approach would be to play a weenie intercept deck.
> With a few Wakes you should be able to block all the weenie presence action
> and maybe also torporize some vampires, depending on your deck.
Oh, ugh. Sorry, I just don愒 like this kind of deck, and neither do I
have the necessary cards for it ( Millicent Smith, Smiling Jack,
Society of Leopold, etc. ).
> Last but not least, any combat deck that can attack several times a turn can
> stop a weenie horde. Weenie rush or multi-rush via Freak Drive come to mind.
> Any serious combat deck should have a way around S:CE. The normal problems
> of combat deck apply. You need to put pressure on your prey as well, and you
> shouldn't wipe out your predator completely.
Which is why combat decks are still very fun to play with, but
difficult to win with. Well, I posted a deck a weeks ago, and a few
minutes ago a new version of it, which tries to go around that
problem.
> As you said youself, table cooperation is necessary if you want to prevent a
> weenie deck from sweeping. Point out how dangerous it is to everyone else.
> Normally you will lose quite some pool to the numerous bleed actions. That
> should prove your point. Even a bad deck can help you, e.g. by diablerizing
> the odd weenie that ended up in torpor, by blocking undirected action, or by
> attacking via a Haven Uncovered that you played.
<g> We still have work to do on table cooperation here, I悲 say. One
player almost always plays a new "trial deck", because he愀 still new
to the game, and another player normally plays a build-up deck, which
plays with itself most of the time. Not the most ideal environment for
table cooperation. :)
> Normally I don't like those magic bullets that hose only a certain deck
> type. So I don't like to play cards that are only weenie hosers. But all the
> options I mentioned are viable against many other deck types as well and
> won't be useless if you don't face a weenie deck all day.
Well, I悲 love to see a magic bullet against weenie deck, favorably
one which doesn愒 contest. If we悲 see less ( or no ) weenie decks
around, the game would profit immensely, IMO.
Magnus
Magnus
> Atonements & magnums. You can chose the cel angle, the aus angle or both
> aus/cel, but either option is good against other deck types.
Good enough, though Atonement still normally gets burned before you
untap again. Special Report is mandatory. :)
Magnus
Magnus
> I find that Deflection works nicely :)
> Unhealthy amounts of Deflection :)
"Unhealthy" is the operative word in this, I fear. They can be like
lead on your hand, when your predator isn´t a heavy bleeder.
Magnus
Magnus
> So, the weenie deck is effective. Is it as effective as the other decks? One
> assumes yes, otherwise there's the discouragement to playing it.
It愀 actually the most effective one, closely followed by the Dom/Obf
bleeder. The other two ones are more "fun" decks. Theo/Beast biggest
defense is rushing backwards, and the Masika/Alexandra deck is easy to
kill at the beginning, but after a few rounds of build-up is a
complete pain in the ass, with Masika shooting up anyone being stupid
enough trying to do anything at all against it.
> Do nothing to your prey and get everyone at the table to try to kill the weenie
> deck. The reality is that a strong speed deck pretty much guarantees to oust
> its prey. The discouragement to such a deck comes in preventing it from
> winning tables as often as another deck may and peer pressure.
Peer pressure works mostly, but not if the player in question aims to
win in the Prophecy League...
> There is one possibility for surviving a speed predator, though how well it
> will work is debatable. If you have seat switching, you might be able to get
> out from under it.
Definitely useable.
> Then, you're screwed. Well, *you* were always screwed. If the table doesn't
> match up right, it's screwed. But, the game has moved so much more towards
> control that it's fairly likely something can be done before it gets 3 VPs and
> reasonably likely something can be done before 2 unless its grandprey just
> can't defend.
Happpens too often here, I fear. :)
> Every deck could run Aranthebes. Other weenie hosers either require building
> decks along certain lines or aren't that good. Could always emphasize
> acceleration - getting minions out faster - in general deck construction.
> There's rarely a disadvantage to transferring faster, and sometimes, something
> like first turn Info Highway can just give you a game.
Only if you have the minion taps to regain the pool, otherwise you愉e
just helping the weenie bleeder. Aranthebes is a good idea, sadly I
only possess one, and I惴 the only one here who has him. <g>
Magnus
Magnus
> I think you can use:
>
> Atonement
Plus Special Report/Second Tradition
> deflections
> TP counter
> TP misdirection
All of those jam your hand against lots of other decks.
> Parity shift (if you have princes)
Definitely a good idea.
> Carver's Meat Packing and Storage
Too specific. Doesn´t work against every other decktype, besides
"Build-your-own" decks.
> Elysium: Sforzesco Castle
Also a bit too specific for my taste, although definitely more useable
than Carvers.
> And if you don't have a weenie deck also a mix of EVENTS, first of all:
> Nightmares upon Nightmares
> Thirst
>
> (The new inquisition)
One needs to play other events to complement them. A lone Thirst won´t
do anything to anyone at the table, and even with NuN out you´ll only
affect one-caps/two-caps. Other events which help are Anthelios, Blood
Trade Dragonbound, Torpid Blood and Recalled to the Founder. Oh, and
Beckett Adv. :)
Magnus
Magnus
> You've got a lot weenie hoosers.
>
> -> For vote decks
> Switch places
> Ancilla empoweremnt
> Ancient Influence
> are natural elements of your strategy
We got a high vote environment here. Other players routinely pack vote
heavy vampires, just to get vote locks, in case someone plays a vote
deck. So, you better bring the *big guys* or don愒 play politics at
all. My most succesful deck is a Arika/Leandro and other
ICs/Justicars/Princes deck, with Pre/Obf the main disciplines. Unless
I get the Info Highway/Zillahs Valley *and* the Minion Tap in my hand
at the beginning, I惻l be gone against this deck in a nano-second.
> -> For ally deck
> Ally decks generate enough rushes to screw a weenie's combat defense
> fairly easily. Don't forget the pulled fangs.
I guess you愉e referring the Shambling Hordes decks, because Renegade
Garous are far too expensive to play in great numbers.
> -> For rush decks
> Rush and screw combat ends. If you can't screw combat ends with your
> combat deck, improve your deck. Don't forget Carver (a very effective
> weenie hooser as well as blood generator) and pulled fnags (a cheap
> alternative to burning vampires).
My best bet against the weenie *and* other decks at this moment is a
deck with mostly permanent rush vampires, Beckett Adv. and lots of
events. If it draws into the right cards at the beginning, it can
survive... I hope. :) If not, it愀 screwed, but I guess that愀 so with
every other deck in the game.
Magnus
Magnus
>
> Weenie Animalism is death on weenie Presence. Lots of untap, lots of
> permanent intercept, lots of crows, lots of taste of vitae. Run them
> out of Majesty, run them out of blood, block their hunts and torporize
> them until they're ready to make a deal. It's great against many
> decktypes, although full-forward bleed as your prey will be hard to
> catch.
How does it stack up against other combat decks or stealth-heavy bleed?
Magnus
The Doctor
Once you grab a firm hold of the Edge, people tend to want to bleed. And
some of them will end up coming your way. I do deflect even the small
bleeds...
The Fanboy
> Atonement can be burned. Only way I扉e found around that yet is using
> Special Report for non-Prince decks.
Who'll burn it? The weenies? The key is to be untapped before the
weenies get a chance to act.
Freak Drive works like a charm.
And if you pack skill cards, it's a handy defense against mid-caps,
too. I've had the Atonement/Sniper Rifle combo on a vamp that then
grew to a 9 cap. You pretty much need block denial to shut that down,
and weenie presence rarely packs that.
kelly
John P.
news:<ccbi3m$s48$1...@reader11.wxs.nl>...
> > Aranthebes goes a long way, but a Sniper Rifle/Atonement combo also
> > works like a charm.
>
> Yeah, I thought about that, too, but there愀 one little problem:
> Atonement can be burned. Only way I扉e found around that yet is using
> Special Report for non-Prince decks.
Metro Underground
-JTP
Azel
solution. there's no perfect solution. but there are ways to spice the deck
to adapt just in case. and besides, table talk is always huge in this game.
if the table has seen this deck before and didn't like it then why don't
they just destroy it as soon as it hits the table each time. after losing
several times with only 1 VP to his name he'll figure it out. and if he
doesn't then oh well, don't react emotionally, just casually have the entire
table squash it and act bored from repeating the same tired story. something
tells me he might be doing this to hear the groans from the table.
anyhoo, all these replies are great. i just wanted to add something to the
allies deck assessment. it isn't just shambling hordes or war ghouls. now
with concealed weapons and flash grenades you can have allies (either
rushing or blocking) tie up minions quite handily. heck, with conceals and
flashes even loyal street gangs can throw a monkey wrench into plans. the
big weenie advantage of speed and numbers starts to get whittled down when
you are stalling his minions and the rest of the table is picking them off.
find something that fits your deck and go with it. most likely your best
defense will be table talk. if you're the prey you are most likely gone,
which encourages walling up and slowing down his game for the rest of the
table to finish off. not a perfect defense, but it helps deny the pleasure
of a weenie table sweep
Smiling Tom
"Magnus" <magn...@gmx.de> escribió en el mensaje
news:70eabfe1.04070...@posting.google.com...
Or metro underground. Or 2nd Tradition (Volker rules here)
Magnus
> So we should try to answer THIS question...finding a deck-independent
> way to deal with WeePreBleed.
>
> Too bad that there simply isn't a magic bullet :( When the weenies
> get up to speed the way they should and you're unprepared, they're
> nearly unstoppable.
Tell me about it... :)
> But here are some suggestions from someone who
> occasionally dusts of a weenie Presence deck for tournaments.
>
> 1) Table assistance.
> Really the only tool that's always at your disposal. Apply influence.
> Cajole. Beg. If all else fails, threaten.
That sometime works, sometimes doesn´t. It always depends on the
opposing players possibility to go crosstable.
> Depending on the metagame, you may be able to find "heads-up" players
> with the ability (POT, CEL) to whack-a-mole or six for you. Or
> someone to give some vote assistance across the table. Maybe everyone
> will agree to bounce big bleeds at the weenie player and limit his
> accumlation of minions.
I "saw" that definitely work at the German Championship, where one of
my players brought just that weenie deck with him and in two games got
ousted cross-table. So it has potential. :)
> Unfortunately, even if you eradicate your weenie predator, all you've
> done is trade problems - you've got a fresh predator with 6 shiny new
> pool. And he's just as bloodthirsty as the last one guy sitting to
> your right. But what other options did you have?
None. No other deck, besides maybe a Obf/Dom bleeder, can be as
horrifyingly annoying and lethal as the weenie hordes. I´d rather take
any of the other deck instead of the hordes. Outside of Anson Anarch
Revolts, that is.
> 2) Have balls of steel - take it like a man and hand-jam your predator
> Almost every weenie Presence bleed deck is basically a tap-and-run
> design. They carry a lot of dodge/S:CE, often 1 SCE per 2 1/2 to 3
> action cards. So stop blocking, just like you do with
> stealth-bleeders to jam them on action modifiers. If the Presence
> deck is true to form, you'll eat a few bleeds and they'll jam up on
> masters and combat avoidance.
And then I have to hope I have Aranthebes out... :p
> Unlike dealing with stealth-bleed, you'll need your grand-predator to
> know what you're doing. It isn't helpful for that guy to carelessly
> initiate a lot of non-lethal combat and cycle the bleed cards back
> into your predator's hand.
Yyyyeah, that is still the greatest problem here. To have players
cooperate. I´m working on it.
> Your job is to go about your business, regaining pool (not spending
> too much) and trying to oust your prey. Be careful to avoid D actions
> at your predator or 0-stealth undirected actions that he might leap at
> to cycle combat.
Good point. I still get then bled for 4 to 7 pool each round, though.
> 3) Be the wall
> Probably the least effective strategy, as you effectively give up on
> actively trying to oust your prey. But it might keep you in the game
> if you come close to matching your predators minion count, after
> everything else is said and done. So, influence your tiniest minions
> and deal with the sub-optimal use of your library.
Normally doesn´t work, depending on the average crypt size. My best
decks don´t even have minions below 7 capacity.
> 4) Move seats - as soon as possible.
> Pretty straightforward - though in the games I usually get stuck in,
> there never seems to be a "right place" to move. Even if you can
> figure out a desirable place to be, you may have to bend to the will
> of the table to get the vote to pass. Do it without question. Any
> other seat is better than the one you're in right now.
Which means to put at least 4 switch seat votes into each deck, so you
reliably have them on the hand. Plus the cards to make them pass. Not
exactly easy.
> I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Succubus Club. Cheesey, but
> effective and it is potentially useful in any deck. Use it to share
> pool with anyone you can spare some. As a last blow, it offers good
> spite-value. Right before you die, give all your minions and the Club
> to your grand-predator or prey.
Definitely a card which should be included, you´re totally right. Goes
into my next deck for just that cause.
> Aranthebes is of some use in any deck, though serious presence bleed
> (+2 bleed actions & Aire of Elation) will hardly notice. But just
> rememeber that you might end up contesting Aranthebes with your
> weenie-based predator - savvy weenie players carry it solely to
> contest.
I think Protected Resources can be a good addition, although that
presupposes that one plays a deck which wins by doing something else
than bleeding.
> Major Boon may offer some deterrent against any power bleed deck.
> Drop 2-3 of these on your predator and he'll think twice about
> dropping large actions on you. I find this card underused and think
> it might have some utility even in some DOM or AUS decks (deflect a
> 1-bleed and boon it, you then have a permanent one-shot deflection
> sitting on the table.)
That needs to go into a low-masters deck ( or a Parthenon-heavy one ).
> I suggest that any non-weenie deck might consider carrying Ancilla
> Empowerment/Anarchist Uprising. Not having votes of your own isn't a
> problem - all the big voters will usually side with you against the
> wimps unless the vote actually wipes out the weenie player (and
> sometimes even then).
Interesting. Yeah, could be useful. Normal decks will shrug and take
it, just to stick it to the weenie. Definitively something to try out.
:)
> Atonement+Guardian Angel is an effective hard stop against weenie
> Presence (but not Dominate). Unfortunately, it is pricey, slow and a
> little unreliable. Guns are more reliable (you'll carry more guns in
> your deck than Angels), but your designated blocker is out of action
> for 2 turns insteads of 1 - and you'll likely be punished during the
> extra turn of free-reign bleeding.
Oh, I *tried* that. Of course the player then decided to use his +much
stealth obf/dom bleeder, and the Atonements were totally useless. :p
Well, maybe after two or three of them...
Magnus
Emmit Svenson
Not bad at all against other combat decks: you can get out lots of
cheap minions and have plenty of hit-back. Against heavy stealth bleed
in front or behind you're in trouble. If it's your predator you have
to decide in a hurry whether you can run them out of stealth or should
just give up blocking to jam their hand. If it's your prey, they could
be too fast to catch: you end up depending on your grandprey's
defences.
Darby Keeney
> > stealth-bleeders to jam them on action modifiers.
>
That is the best outcome. Even if you don't, getting bleed for 1 pool
5 times is better than getting bled for 2 pool 5 times. It gives your
xtable "allies" enough time to generate the abililty to help you (if
they choose to do so).
> Good point. I still get then bled for 4 to 7 pool each round, though.
As above - 1 pool bleeds are better than the other option, yes?
> > 3) Be the wall
> Normally doesn´t work, depending on the average crypt size. My best
> decks don´t even have minions below 7 capacity.
That's why I said is was the worst option. Personally, I don't like
that approach as it actually empowers the weenie's deck cycling.
> > 4) Move seats - as soon as possible.
> Which means to put at least 4 switch seat votes into each deck, so you
> reliably have them on the hand. Plus the cards to make them pass. Not
> exactly easy.
You don't need the push cards - someone with vote control will likely
help you move, often to be their prey after you've lost some pool.
Buy, you'll be better prepared to handle their deck, and you hose the
weenie in the process.
> I think Protected Resources can be a good addition, although that
> presupposes that one plays a deck which wins by doing something else
> than bleeding.
An OK idea, I guess. I don't like the no-bleed cause, so it can't fit
in every deck. Also, if your predator is a Social 2-bleeder,
Protecting Resources does absolutely no good.
> > Major Boon may offer some deterrent against any power bleed deck.
>
> That needs to go into a low-masters deck ( or a Parthenon-heavy one ).
I don't know that I agree, though those deck types certainly can use
the tool to it's fullest.
> > I suggest that any non-weenie deck might consider carrying Ancilla
> > Empowerment/Anarchist Uprising.
> Interesting. Yeah, could be useful. Normal decks will shrug and take
> it, just to stick it to the weenie. Definitively something to try out.
> :)
Is useful. You'll see when you try. I recommend splitting the votes
50/50 Ancilla to Anarchist. You may be in a situation with both in
your hand, and one gets delayed (remote chance, but I've seen it).
> > Atonement+Guardian Angel
> Oh, I *tried* that. Of course the player then decided to use his +much
> stealth obf/dom bleeder, and the Atonements were totally useless. :p
> Well, maybe after two or three of them...
You asked about WeePre, not other archetypes. Besides, I think
Atoning is too slow unless you pack untaps (as mentioned previously).
Cheers.
D.
Dasein
> Presence Bleed deck, basically Social Charms, S:CE cards, Effective
> random annoyance thrown in.
There are a few modules that might help, depending on what you want to
play.
- vampire with DOM and 12 or so obediences. Doesn't even have to be a
big one because your prey's vamps are all low-caps; hell, even Ingrid
Russo might do. And she has for so can Freak Drive after making an
action, nice and untapped for lots of Obedience fun. Second Tradition
also works well for this, so a prince with DOM is what you're after.
- A few Dummy Corps and some bloat and/or Tele Counters. Won't totally
negate the offence but will keep you alive for an extra turn or two,
which could be all you need. Remember he hopefully has a predator
trying hard to stop him from getting the VP. Dummy Corp is good
because it can come out first turn, before you are spending masters on
stuff like Blood Dolls.
- Archon Investigations, if he is pushing the bleeds up to 3 with
Aires, but he might not, for this reason.
- If you're playing Serpentis (and there are many non-FoS vamps with
ser or SER) then Ecstacy will ROCK. Prevent the bleed while burning
blood, and he needs blood (for majesties, aires, legals, etc).
Also don't forget cards to take OUT... like Hunting Grounds...
anything that costs pool.
pallando
> one which doesn´t contest. If we´d see less ( or no ) weenie decks
> around, the game would profit immensely, IMO.
>
> Magnus
A very effective way to fight weenie decks is playing corruption. Of course
you have to be a bit lucky, because you need to be the predator of the wenie
deck (and hope that noone rearranges the seating order!). But the new
Gehenna card Reformation alleviated this problem.
regards
pallando
--
pallando(at)gmx(dot)at