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Orpheus

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Sep 7, 2007, 6:54:07 AM9/7/07
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You know what ? I've preparred this post before the image appeared, because
if this wasn't a Giovanni I didn't know who it could be !! :-)

Lorenzo Detuono
Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
Independent. Red List : If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the
opposing minion is not, Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion
to your ready region (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.

Comments follow...
--
Orpheus
----------------
Top of Ban / Fix List : PTO, Champion, Memories of Mortality.


Orpheus

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Sep 7, 2007, 7:06:50 AM9/7/07
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> Lorenzo Detuono

First, I've never heard of the Detuono, not even as faraway cousins. Where
does that come from ??

> Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT

Inferior Aus has never been a catch on a minion with DOM. Dem is interesting
if we get other minions with Dem / Nec or Dem / DOM (I don't really believe
in Dem / Pot, but who knows ?).

> Independent. Red List :

Ok, so that's the end of this. If he's Red List and without a real combat
discipline / ability besides Pot, he won't be playable at all in a
straightforward Giovanni deck. One wasted 7-Cap, great ! So let's see if his
special makes him worthwhile, as per Ambrogino Adv :

> If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the opposing minion is not,
> Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion to your ready region
> (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.

Incorporated Graverobbing is nice. 5 blood is 3 more than usual, not so
nice. On a minion not built for combat and usable only in combats involving
him (and not, for example, as a follow-up to Ignazio's combat) it becomes so
cornercase I'm in pain just thinking about it. What will we do, give him For
? Hope that our opponents don't play fight and are vulnerable to Pot fight ?

Still, with his superior disciplines he would fit in any Gio deck if he
wasn't Red List. But he is.

So, one wasted Family slot. Nice job. Not.

Makes me wonder about Grouping. The justification for creating Groupin,
apart from the obvious commercial reason, is to avoid "perfect crypts" and
yet make new, interesting vamps. Now we do have grouping, and yet the game
conceptors seem to behave as if we didn't (especially for the indies) : they
make vamps that are useless in main clan strategies, but open new strategies
(some of which are viable, others not) : Ravnos Pre, Giovanni For etc. ; and
they also give us vampires full of disciplines and specials, but with such
big downsides that we'll never play them : Red Lists, Sonja Blue, Hector
Trelane, Rabbat... What are they thinking of ?!?
----------
Disappointed Orpheus


Orpheus

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Sep 7, 2007, 7:13:47 AM9/7/07
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>> Lorenzo Detuono

Wait, I thought he was 7-Cap but he's 9-Cap !!

Really, really not worth it then. except of course if there is a new,
non-expensive NEc card that prevents like hell.

> First, I've never heard of the Detuono, not even as faraway cousins. Where
> does that come from ??
>
>> Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
>

> Still, with his superior disciplines he would fit in any Gio deck if he
> wasn't Red List.

Forget that, at 9-Cap I wouldn't play him in a deck not built around him,
even without his Red List. Wow, that one is so useless it's hard to even
begin describing it...

----------
Very Disappointed Orpheus


preac...@gmx.at

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Sep 7, 2007, 7:17:55 AM9/7/07
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On 7 Sep., 13:06, "Orpheus" <orpheus...@free.fr> wrote:
> > Lorenzo Detuono
>
> First, I've never heard of the Detuono, not even as faraway cousins. Where
> does that come from ??
>
> > Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
>
> Inferior Aus has never been a catch on a minion with DOM. Dem is interesting
> if we get other minions with Dem / Nec or Dem / DOM (I don't really believe
> in Dem / Pot, but who knows ?).
>
> > Independent. Red List :
>
> Ok, so that's the end of this. If he's Red List and without a real combat
> discipline / ability besides Pot, he won't be playable at all in a
> straightforward Giovanni deck. One wasted 7-Cap, great ! So let's see if his
> special makes him worthwhile, as per Ambrogino Adv :
>
> > If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the opposing minion is not,
> > Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion to your ready region
> > (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.
>
> Incorporated Graverobbing is nice. 5 blood is 3 more than usual, not so
> nice. On a minion not built for combat and usable only in combats involving
> him (and not, for example, as a follow-up to Ignazio's combat) it becomes so
> cornercase I'm in pain just thinking about it. What will we do, give him For
> ? Hope that our opponents don't play fight and are vulnerable to Pot fight ?

Just one card: Fast Reaction. 'nuff said. :)


Orpheus

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Sep 7, 2007, 7:24:16 AM9/7/07
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What will we do, give him For
>> ? Hope that our opponents don't play fight and are vulnerable to Pot
>> fight ?
>
> Just one card: Fast Reaction. 'nuff said. :)

Are U ready to base your deck on intercept with a vampire with inf Aus just
for that effect ? It could work sometimes, sure. But I wouldn't bet on its
regularity.

J

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Sep 7, 2007, 7:27:32 AM9/7/07
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> Lorenzo Detuono
> Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
> Independent. Red List : If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the
> opposing minion is not, Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion
> to your ready region (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.

I like him.
Deadhand/Disarm built in graverob. Sure he doesn't have fortitude, or
any other ability to prevent built in, but the graverob is nice.
Expensive, but nice. Maybe in a Proxy Kissed deck. I'll definately
be trying to do something with him.

--> J
grail_pbem "at" hotmail.com

Daneel

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Sep 7, 2007, 7:32:16 AM9/7/07
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On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 13:06:50 +0200, Orpheus <orphe...@free.fr> wrote:

> Still, with his superior disciplines he would fit in any Gio deck if he
> wasn't Red List. But he is.
>
> So, one wasted Family slot. Nice job. Not.

Ok, I know it isn't the greatest combo on earth, but I do see some good
synergy with, say, Heidelberg Castle + Fast Reaction + Ivory Bow /
Breath of Thanatos / Coma. Basically, you do 1 aggro or send to torpor,
take control, and transfer the blood to fuel your passion.

If you have good surprise combat Red List can actually be a benefit.

Of course this guy won't go into the DOM NEC powerbleed deck but I really
think that he could be used for a deck of his own. That said he probably
could've been an 8-cap, though, with his special costing only 4 blood,
without seriously breaking the game.

--
Regards,

Daneel

J

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Sep 7, 2007, 7:46:57 AM9/7/07
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> So, one wasted Family slot. Nice job. Not.

If anything I think this is not a wasted slot. It would have been a
wasted slot if he was just more of the same.

Alex Ek

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Sep 7, 2007, 7:55:22 AM9/7/07
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J skrev:

How would he work with Rötschreck?
//Alex

Orpheus

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Sep 7, 2007, 8:03:59 AM9/7/07
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>> So, one wasted Family slot. Nice job. Not.
>
> If anything I think this is not a wasted slot. It would have been a
> wasted slot if he was just more of the same.

What you're saying would be right if there was no grouping. As there is
grouping, we need in every group two sorts of vamps :

- core vamps, that you can use in most decks involving the right clan /
disciplines
- vamps opening to new strategies with new discipline combos (like Ravnos
Pre)

When I made that comment I thought the guy was 7-Cap, which is the capacity
of the biggest "core" vamps of a clan, usually, and among the lowest to have
potentially all the clan disciplines at superior. As such, it would have
been a wasted "slot".

Now I can only say that we just got a very cornercase and marginally
playable 9-Cap, which could also have been a slot used for some other useful
strategy, say a PRE Giovanni with 2 votes. But the "slot" part isn't the
core of my argument anymore, I'm more thinking "wasted paper".

LSJ

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Sep 7, 2007, 8:07:43 AM9/7/07
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Rötschreck ends the combat with both minions ready.

Still.

XZealot

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Sep 7, 2007, 8:18:06 AM9/7/07
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On Sep 7, 6:06 am, "Orpheus" <orpheus...@free.fr> wrote:
> > Lorenzo Detuono
>
> First, I've never heard of the Detuono, not even as faraway cousins. Where
> does that come from ??

They don't all have Giovanni as a last name, silly!

> > Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
>
> Inferior Aus has never been a catch on a minion with DOM. Dem is interesting
> if we get other minions with Dem / Nec or Dem / DOM (I don't really believe
> in Dem / Pot, but who knows ?).

Dem/Pot is strong!

> > Independent. Red List :
>
> Ok, so that's the end of this. If he's Red List and without a real combat
> discipline / ability besides Pot, he won't be playable at all in a
> straightforward Giovanni deck. One wasted 7-Cap, great ! So let's see if his
> special makes him worthwhile, as per Ambrogino Adv :

Right, Have you heard of Obedience. I hear it does wonders for large
caps.

> > If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the opposing minion is not,
> > Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion to your ready region
> > (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.
>
> Incorporated Graverobbing is nice. 5 blood is 3 more than usual, not so
> nice. On a minion not built for combat and usable only in combats involving
> him (and not, for example, as a follow-up to Ignazio's combat) it becomes so
> cornercase I'm in pain just thinking about it. What will we do, give him For
> ? Hope that our opponents don't play fight and are vulnerable to Pot fight ?

Have you heard of Taste of Vitae? I hear it is a good combo for
potence decks.
Have you heard of Disarm? I also hear it is good for potence decks.

I don't want to call your oppinion just a silly rant. Everyone is
vulnerable to Potence combat. The only thing that stops it is
prevent. I don't see very much of that in the general metagame. Do
you?

> Still, with his superior disciplines he would fit in any Gio deck if he
> wasn't Red List. But he is.

So, are you going to be the first one to "voluteer" your minion to
join his side because that is what it is going to consist. The first
guy who rushes him is going to get spontaneously graverobbed. Hope
you playing with a JImmy Dunn deck, because otherwise entering combat
with Lorenzo "Tutti Fruitti" Detuono is going to do actual POOL DAMAGE
to yourself in the form of a lost minion.

> So, one wasted Family slot. Nice job. Not.

I'll take this orphan that you don't want in your family, Orpheus. :)

> Makes me wonder about Grouping. The justification for creating Groupin,
> apart from the obvious commercial reason, is to avoid "perfect crypts" and
> yet make new, interesting vamps. Now we do have grouping, and yet the game
> conceptors seem to behave as if we didn't (especially for the indies) : they
> make vamps that are useless in main clan strategies, but open new strategies
> (some of which are viable, others not) : Ravnos Pre, Giovanni For etc. ; and
> they also give us vampires full of disciplines and specials, but with such
> big downsides that we'll never play them : Red Lists, Sonja Blue, Hector
> Trelane, Rabbat... What are they thinking of ?!?

I hate to be the one to tell you but there are all good decks based
around the "problem areas" you just mentioned. Just because they are
not showing up in the TWDA isn't because they don't exist, but is
really more about "the Swiss School of Thought" being much bigger than
Switzerland. I see it a lot at the NAC, and I don't see a lot of Swiss
citizens there. I see a lot of predictable decks at high levels which
bothers that innovation isn't for the competitive player.

Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp

Alex Ek

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Sep 7, 2007, 8:10:28 AM9/7/07
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LSJ skrev:

Exellent, was abit unsure there for a sec.
Thanks
//Alex

Jozxyqk

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Sep 7, 2007, 8:40:07 AM9/7/07
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Orpheus <orphe...@free.fr> wrote:
> Lorenzo Detuono
> Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
> Independent. Red List : If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the
> opposing minion is not, Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion
> to your ready region (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.

Coma
cost: 8 blood
[dem] Strike: Take control of the opposing vampire. This strike costs 5 fewer
blood if it does not resolve.

;)
With a skillcard and another blood, he can add Thoughts Betrayed, for a sure-thing
steal that only costs 10! :)


Real Questions about his ability though:

Can he steal Shambling Hordes that are burning empty (does it count as them
gaining a life)?

Can he steal Jake Washington (is Jake still a minion long enough for Lorenzo's
ability to kick in)?


LSJ

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Sep 7, 2007, 9:11:12 AM9/7/07
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Jozxyqk wrote:
> Orpheus <orphe...@free.fr> wrote:
>> Lorenzo Detuono
>> Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
>> Independent. Red List : If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the
>> opposing minion is not, Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion
>> to your ready region (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.
>
> Coma
> cost: 8 blood
> [dem] Strike: Take control of the opposing vampire. This strike costs 5 fewer
> blood if it does not resolve.
>
> ;)
> With a skillcard and another blood, he can add Thoughts Betrayed, for a sure-thing
> steal that only costs 10! :)
>
>
> Real Questions about his ability though:
>
> Can he steal Shambling Hordes that are burning empty (does it count as them
> gaining a life)?

Anything that adds life to the SH counts as adding life.

So he can steal them and a SH empty, and then, since it is still empty, it dies.

> Can he steal Jake Washington (is Jake still a minion long enough for Lorenzo's
> ability to kick in)?

Yes. "instead"

Jeroen

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Sep 7, 2007, 9:13:25 AM9/7/07
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On 7 sep, 12:54, "Orpheus" <orpheus...@free.fr> wrote:
> You know what ? I've preparred this post before the image appeared, because
> if this wasn't a Giovanni I didn't know who it could be !! :-)
>
> Lorenzo Detuono
> Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
> Independent. Red List : If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the
> opposing minion is not, Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion
> to your ready region (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.
>
Timing question (for Norm;) )

There is a window for getting trophies on Lorenzo before using his
ability, right? Hunting ground seems a prime candidate.

Jeroen

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Sep 7, 2007, 9:15:00 AM9/7/07
to

on second thought: probably not. it's instead.

Bummer.

Orpheus

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Sep 7, 2007, 9:24:17 AM9/7/07
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>> > Lorenzo Detuono
>>
>> First, I've never heard of the Detuono, not even as faraway cousins.
>> Where
>> does that come from ??
>
> They don't all have Giovanni as a last name, silly!

Now you're the Giovanni specialist, uh ?

Well, most of them do. Very few families outside the Giovanni have been
allowed into the clan. They are the Dunsirn, the Pisanob, the Milliners, and
among the minor families the laibon Ghiberti, the Della Passaglia, the
Rossellini, the Putanesca, and no one else is mentionned in the Clanbook. I
think there are lots of names for variety in these to pick from, and I'm
curious to know if there's a special reason to include a new name while all
the minor families haven't been mentionned yet in VTES. So, who are you
calling silly, paesano ? B)

>> > Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
>>
>> Inferior Aus has never been a catch on a minion with DOM. Dem is
>> interesting
>> if we get other minions with Dem / Nec or Dem / DOM (I don't really
>> believe
>> in Dem / Pot, but who knows ?).
>
> Dem/Pot is strong!

Mention a combo ?

>> > Independent. Red List :
>>
>> Ok, so that's the end of this. If he's Red List and without a real combat
>> discipline / ability besides Pot, he won't be playable at all in a
>> straightforward Giovanni deck. One wasted 7-Cap, great ! So let's see if
>> his
>> special makes him worthwhile, as per Ambrogino Adv :
>
> Right, Have you heard of Obedience. I hear it does wonders for large
> caps.

Ok, I won't take into account your "have you heard" crap, and pretend that
you were courteous in your remarks, as should be the case between two adult
players who know this game well.

Obedience is totally counter-intuitive if we want to use this guy's special.
And if we don't, why use a rushable 9-Cap ? If we want to go that way
Ambrogino is good. Also, Obedience has a narrow window of opportunity, you
have to be able to react, if your other guys are midcap they'll be able to
use it only against younger, as you well know, so it's not a miracle
solution, you know !

There are other defense solutions, I usually include 3 Haven Uncovered in
any deck with a Red List, but it has to be well worth it. Enkidu doesn't
need that because he's a combat beast. Lorenzo should be one, except that
his discipline spread is disappointingon that account.

>> > If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the opposing minion is
>> > not,
>> > Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion to your ready
>> > region
>> > (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.
>>
>> Incorporated Graverobbing is nice. 5 blood is 3 more than usual, not so
>> nice. On a minion not built for combat and usable only in combats
>> involving
>> him (and not, for example, as a follow-up to Ignazio's combat) it becomes
>> so
>> cornercase I'm in pain just thinking about it. What will we do, give him
>> For
>> ? Hope that our opponents don't play fight and are vulnerable to Pot
>> fight ?
>
> Have you heard of Taste of Vitae? I hear it is a good combo for
> potence decks.
> Have you heard of Disarm? I also hear it is good for potence decks.

You mean for Potence decks which are sure that their 9-Cap will still be
ready at the end of the round ? See, that is the problem. With neither For
nor Cel nor Pro, my 9-Cap will be vulnerable to a whole lot of things, from
Cel-Pot to aggropock (and yes, I know there is Chill of Oblivion, it is far
from an easy solution), not to mention Ani LR fight ; so I'm not worried
that much about non-combattants, see, he's Red List, and any dedicated
combat deck will own him.

> I don't want to call your oppinion just a silly rant.

You'd better not if you like your redfish uncoocked.

> Everyone is
> vulnerable to Potence combat. The only thing that stops it is
> prevent. I don't see very much of that in the general metagame. Do
> you?

I see some, but that isn't the problem. You might have heard of a Nec card
that goes right through prevent. What I do see a lot in the general metagame
is deck with more offensive combat, some of which will be very happy to get
a free rush when they want (others, like the Tupdogs, won't care but will
still destroy Lorenzo any day).

>> Still, with his superior disciplines he would fit in any Gio deck if he
>> wasn't Red List. But he is.
>
> So, are you going to be the first one to "voluteer" your minion to
> join his side because that is what it is going to consist. The first
> guy who rushes him is going to get spontaneously graverobbed. Hope
> you playing with a JImmy Dunn deck, because otherwise entering combat
> with Lorenzo "Tutti Fruitti" Detuono is going to do actual POOL DAMAGE
> to yourself in the form of a lost minion

If I have any well-built combat deck, I think I'll volunteer Lorenzo to join
MY side. Of course if he had FOR it would be quite different.

>> So, one wasted Family slot. Nice job. Not.
>
> I'll take this orphan that you don't want in your family, Orpheus. :)

Take him and use him, I love to make silly decks too but when I play I want
to have a serious chance at winning, even with something original. While I
believe it is feasible with Lorenzo, it would require a very heavy setup
(like putting For Masters on him, or lots of equip, making him able to
seriously intercept and / or rush, etc) which just doesn't seem worth it
when other Giovanni are much more dangerous (Ignazio, Sylvia...) and have
cards that allow the same effects (Graverob, Daemonic Possession) in a deck
where cycling shouldn't be a problem due to Necromancy cards.

His special would be a welcome bonus in a real fighty deck, I'm just saying
it is on the wrong vampire.

>> Makes me wonder about Grouping. The justification for creating Groupin,
>> apart from the obvious commercial reason, is to avoid "perfect crypts"
>> and
>> yet make new, interesting vamps. Now we do have grouping, and yet the
>> game
>> conceptors seem to behave as if we didn't (especially for the indies) :
>> they
>> make vamps that are useless in main clan strategies, but open new
>> strategies
>> (some of which are viable, others not) : Ravnos Pre, Giovanni For etc. ;
>> and
>> they also give us vampires full of disciplines and specials, but with
>> such
>> big downsides that we'll never play them : Red Lists, Sonja Blue, Hector
>> Trelane, Rabbat... What are they thinking of ?!?
>
> I hate to be the one to tell you but there are all good decks based
> around the "problem areas" you just mentioned.

Lots of winning Sonja Blue decks ? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice ! Where ?

> Just because they are
> not showing up in the TWDA isn't because they don't exist, but is
> really more about "the Swiss School of Thought" being much bigger than
> Switzerland. I see it a lot at the NAC, and I don't see a lot of Swiss
> citizens there. I see a lot of predictable decks at high levels which
> bothers that innovation isn't for the competitive player.

You mix things and people up, Norman.

If the Swiss School is white and your endless sub-optimal decks are black,
then I'm grey.

What I like is neither to play what everyone does nor to make decklists that
will get pawned more often than not, but to find nice and innovative
concepts that can actually work with a bit of tuning. Everyone gets his
kicks from where he can. I'll never understand the swiss PoV because to me
it's utterly boring, but I still don't have to applaud every time a
cornercase vampire hits the lists (especially not when it's in my favourite
clan, for which I always entertain high hopes of playable novelties, because
I've already tried all the viable strategies available for it).

LSJ

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Sep 7, 2007, 9:32:17 AM9/7/07
to

Correct.

atomweaver

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Sep 7, 2007, 9:34:31 AM9/7/07
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"Orpheus" <orphe...@free.fr> wrote in
news:46e150fb$0$21872$426a...@news.free.fr:

>>> > Lorenzo Detuono
>>>
>>> First, I've never heard of the Detuono, not even as faraway cousins.
>>> Where
>>> does that come from ??
>>
>> They don't all have Giovanni as a last name, silly!
>
> Now you're the Giovanni specialist, uh ?
>
> Well, most of them do. Very few families outside the Giovanni have
> been allowed into the clan. They are the Dunsirn, the Pisanob, the
> Milliners, and among the minor families the laibon Ghiberti, the Della
> Passaglia, the Rossellini, the Putanesca, and no one else is
> mentionned in the Clanbook. I think there are lots of names for
> variety in these to pick from, and I'm curious to know if there's a
> special reason to include a new name while all the minor families
> haven't been mentionned yet in VTES. So, who are you calling silly,
> paesano ? B)
>

Because VTES pwns your backstory now, Bitch. We're writing new canon,
here. Deal with it :-)

DZ
AW

LSJ

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Sep 7, 2007, 9:45:49 AM9/7/07
to
atomweaver wrote:
> Because VTES [...]. We're writing new canon,
> here. Deal with it :-)

Nah. He's not new with his appearance in VTES.

Orpheus

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Sep 7, 2007, 9:47:31 AM9/7/07
to

Lol.

Could be. Or could be they just don't care about background anymore.

I'd like to hear that it is some character mentionned somewhere before and
that I didn't know about yet.

BTW, your house just burned down. Bitch. B)
---------
Orpheus, Enzo Giovanni's best friend from college.


XZealot

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Sep 7, 2007, 9:56:50 AM9/7/07
to
On Sep 7, 8:24 am, "Orpheus" <orpheus...@free.fr> wrote:
> >> > Lorenzo Detuono
>
> >> First, I've never heard of the Detuono, not even as faraway cousins.
> >> Where
> >> does that come from ??
>
> > They don't all have Giovanni as a last name, silly!
>
> Now you're the Giovanni specialist, uh ?

It's the only clan that I own both the novel and the clanbook. So
yes, I know more than most, like Lorrie Dursirn was sired by a
Giovanni., but no, I don't spend every waking moment obsessing about
them.

> Well, most of them do. Very few families outside the Giovanni have been
> allowed into the clan. They are the Dunsirn, the Pisanob, the Milliners, and
> among the minor families the laibon Ghiberti, the Della Passaglia, the
> Rossellini, the Putanesca, and no one else is mentionned in the Clanbook. I
> think there are lots of names for variety in these to pick from, and I'm
> curious to know if there's a special reason to include a new name while all
> the minor families haven't been mentionned yet in VTES. So, who are you
> calling silly, paesano ? B)

Don't make me go there, or I will take it to the next level.

> >> > Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
>
> >> Inferior Aus has never been a catch on a minion with DOM. Dem is
> >> interesting
> >> if we get other minions with Dem / Nec or Dem / DOM (I don't really
> >> believe
> >> in Dem / Pot, but who knows ?).
>
> > Dem/Pot is strong!
>
> Mention a combo ?

Blessings of Chaos + Thrown Sewer Lid.

> >> > Independent. Red List :
>
> >> Ok, so that's the end of this. If he's Red List and without a real combat
> >> discipline / ability besides Pot, he won't be playable at all in a
> >> straightforward Giovanni deck. One wasted 7-Cap, great ! So let's see if
> >> his
> >> special makes him worthwhile, as per Ambrogino Adv :
>
> > Right, Have you heard of Obedience. I hear it does wonders for large
> > caps.
>
> Ok, I won't take into account your "have you heard" crap, and pretend that
> you were courteous in your remarks, as should be the case between two adult
> players who know this game well.

:P, I'm playing a children's game!

> Obedience is totally counter-intuitive if we want to use this guy's special.
> And if we don't, why use a rushable 9-Cap ? If we want to go that way
> Ambrogino is good. Also, Obedience has a narrow window of opportunity, you
> have to be able to react, if your other guys are midcap they'll be able to
> use it only against younger, as you well know, so it's not a miracle
> solution, you know !

Ambrogino is a Snowplow mounted on the front of a Steamroller. I put
my 60 card Ambrogino deck in the hands of someone who has never played
a Giovanni deck before, didn't know what the cards did, and made it to
the finals of our local qualifier to tie for 3rd place.

> There are other defense solutions, I usually include 3 Haven Uncovered in
> any deck with a Red List, but it has to be well worth it. Enkidu doesn't
> need that because he's a combat beast. Lorenzo should be one, except that
> his discipline spread is disappointingon that account.

How can you say that? Aura Reading, Blessings of Chaos, Thrown Sewer
Lid, Torn Signpost, Earth Shock, Thought Betrayed.

These are all top tier combat cards (or cards that affect combat).

What about Rebirth and Daemonic Possession?

> >> > If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the opposing minion is
> >> > not,
> >> > Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion to your ready
> >> > region
> >> > (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.
>
> >> Incorporated Graverobbing is nice. 5 blood is 3 more than usual, not so
> >> nice. On a minion not built for combat and usable only in combats
> >> involving
> >> him (and not, for example, as a follow-up to Ignazio's combat) it becomes
> >> so
> >> cornercase I'm in pain just thinking about it. What will we do, give him
> >> For
> >> ? Hope that our opponents don't play fight and are vulnerable to Pot
> >> fight ?
>
> > Have you heard of Taste of Vitae? I hear it is a good combo for
> > potence decks.
> > Have you heard of Disarm? I also hear it is good for potence decks.
>
> You mean for Potence decks which are sure that their 9-Cap will still be
> ready at the end of the round ? See, that is the problem. With neither For
> nor Cel nor Pro, my 9-Cap will be vulnerable to a whole lot of things, from
> Cel-Pot to aggropock (and yes, I know there is Chill of Oblivion, it is far
> from an easy solution), not to mention Ani LR fight ; so I'm not worried
> that much about non-combattants, see, he's Red List, and any dedicated
> combat deck will own him.

See, I can see a potential aus/NEC Smiling Jack wall deck that pairs
up with Harbingers with Society of Leopold/Vampiric Disease/
Graverobbing/Crematorium.

> > I don't want to call your oppinion just a silly rant.
>
> You'd better not if you like your redfish uncoocked.

I don't know what that means? It's like a rooster with socks.

> > Everyone is
> > vulnerable to Potence combat. The only thing that stops it is
> > prevent. I don't see very much of that in the general metagame. Do
> > you?
>
> I see some, but that isn't the problem. You might have heard of a Nec card
> that goes right through prevent. What I do see a lot in the general metagame
> is deck with more offensive combat, some of which will be very happy to get
> a free rush when they want (others, like the Tupdogs, won't care but will
> still destroy Lorenzo any day).

Tupdogs are problematic. Let's hear it for a metagame with more
combat! Yeah!

> >> Still, with his superior disciplines he would fit in any Gio deck if he
> >> wasn't Red List. But he is.
>
> > So, are you going to be the first one to "voluteer" your minion to
> > join his side because that is what it is going to consist. The first
> > guy who rushes him is going to get spontaneously graverobbed. Hope
> > you playing with a JImmy Dunn deck, because otherwise entering combat
> > with Lorenzo "Tutti Fruitti" Detuono is going to do actual POOL DAMAGE
> > to yourself in the form of a lost minion
>
> If I have any well-built combat deck, I think I'll volunteer Lorenzo to join
> MY side. Of course if he had FOR it would be quite different.
>
> >> So, one wasted Family slot. Nice job. Not.
>
> > I'll take this orphan that you don't want in your family, Orpheus. :)
>
> Take him and use him, I love to make silly decks too but when I play I want
> to have a serious chance at winning, even with something original. While I
> believe it is feasible with Lorenzo, it would require a very heavy setup
> (like putting For Masters on him, or lots of equip, making him able to
> seriously intercept and / or rush, etc) which just doesn't seem worth it
> when other Giovanni are much more dangerous (Ignazio, Sylvia...) and have
> cards that allow the same effects (Graverob, Daemonic Possession) in a deck
> where cycling shouldn't be a problem due to Necromancy cards.

....and how does his special prevent you from playing with those
cards?

> His special would be a welcome bonus in a real fighty deck, I'm just saying
> it is on the wrong vampire.

His special is going to be nasty. I would seriously consider
replacing Ambrogino with this guy in my power/stealth/bleed deck as he
has that nasty special ability and swap out the Spiritual
Interventions with Breath of Thanatos.

> >> Makes me wonder about Grouping. The justification for creating Groupin,
> >> apart from the obvious commercial reason, is to avoid "perfect crypts"
> >> and
> >> yet make new, interesting vamps. Now we do have grouping, and yet the
> >> game
> >> conceptors seem to behave as if we didn't (especially for the indies) :
> >> they
> >> make vamps that are useless in main clan strategies, but open new
> >> strategies
> >> (some of which are viable, others not) : Ravnos Pre, Giovanni For etc. ;
> >> and
> >> they also give us vampires full of disciplines and specials, but with
> >> such
> >> big downsides that we'll never play them : Red Lists, Sonja Blue, Hector
> >> Trelane, Rabbat... What are they thinking of ?!?
>
> > I hate to be the one to tell you but there are all good decks based
> > around the "problem areas" you just mentioned.
>
> Lots of winning Sonja Blue decks ? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice ! Where ?

How many Sonja Blue decks have you built? She is the new Jimmy Dunn,
but with way, way better ousting disciplines.

> > Just because they are
> > not showing up in the TWDA isn't because they don't exist, but is
> > really more about "the Swiss School of Thought" being much bigger than
> > Switzerland. I see it a lot at the NAC, and I don't see a lot of Swiss
> > citizens there. I see a lot of predictable decks at high levels which
> > bothers that innovation isn't for the competitive player.
>
> You mix things and people up, Norman.
>
> If the Swiss School is white and your endless sub-optimal decks are black,
> then I'm grey.

Bird crap is grey too. :P

> What I like is neither to play what everyone does nor to make decklists that
> will get pawned more often than not, but to find nice and innovative
> concepts that can actually work with a bit of tuning. Everyone gets his
> kicks from where he can. I'll never understand the swiss PoV because to me
> it's utterly boring, but I still don't have to applaud every time a
> cornercase vampire hits the lists (especially not when it's in my favourite
> clan, for which I always entertain high hopes of playable novelties, because
> I've already tried all the viable strategies available for it).

Try harder.

Comments Welocme,

Johannes Walch

unread,
Sep 7, 2007, 10:20:55 AM9/7/07
to
Orpheus schrieb:

>> Independent. Red List :
>
> Ok, so that's the end of this. If he's Red List and without a real combat
> discipline / ability besides Pot, he won't be playable at all in a
> straightforward Giovanni deck. One wasted 7-Cap, great ! So let's see if his
> special makes him worthwhile, as per Ambrogino Adv :

I don´t think Red List is such a big problem. I have played Mata Hari
Decks with 0 combat cards and still nobody cared to rush me most of the
time. They will think double-twice (ha!) when you have POT/NEC. And
those who can fight can also rush so they don´t even need the Red List.
Probably the worst situation could be an Embrace deck coming in with 10
guys, but the players seem to never think of that.

The guy should be brutal with Grapple + Dead Hand + Disarm (plus an
eventual Signpost if opponent has hitback).

--
Johannes Walch

Orpheus

unread,
Sep 7, 2007, 10:34:22 AM9/7/07
to
----------------
Top of Ban / Fix List : PTO, Champion, Memories of Mortality.
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:tCcEi.8342$924....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...

> atomweaver wrote:
>> Because VTES [...]. We're writing new canon, here. Deal with it :-)
>
> Nah. He's not new with his appearance in VTES.

So, can we have a link to his previous appearance, and if possible know why
he was chosen unto the Family ?
-------
Orpheus, Family Archivist


adam....@gmail.com

unread,
Sep 7, 2007, 10:36:54 AM9/7/07
to
Wow, why we hatin'?

Quick rant: I've noticed that a lot of people have stated that the new
vamps are just not as good as "old" vamps. Well... duh.

Throughout the years, this game has been played and played and played.
The earlier vamps were created, and guess what, the designers did not
have all the answers and made some cards overpowered. No new 11-cap is
as good as Arika? Good. That means they learned their lesson. This
game is all about diversity, many desks are playable and more
importantly fun. If someone ONLY has fun in this game by running
around the table with Group 1 Malks Stealth Bleed... then I think its
time for new hobby. (At least play the new Assamites / Gangrel
Antitribu for god's sake. How the hell did they end up with OBF-DOM???
LOL )

The game designers make new cards to innovate and make us think of new
tactics. That's one of the best things of this game. All these types
of card games have deck design. VTES has the most diversity in deck
design because so many factors have to be taken into consideration.
4-5 players. Offense. Defense. Metagame. Table talk. Just to name a
few.

Okay, enough on that. End rant.

Continuing on: Here's a stupid deck that I made in a couple of minutes
with vamp in question:

Lorenzo Detuono


Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT

9-cap
Independent. Red List : If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and


the
opposing minion is not, Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing
minion
to your ready region (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.

Deck Name: Damned if you do, damned if you don't
Created By:
Description: A wallish deck. If they tap to attack you, you block and
try to get off Lorenzo's special. If they don't, you spirit marionette
steal. Obviously needs work but this is to make a point. Enjoy!

Crypt: (4 cards, Min: 44, Max: 44, Avg: 11)
-------------------------------------------
4 Saulot dai AUS FOR OBE THA VAL11
Salubri
4 Lorenzo Detuono aus dem DOM NEC POT 9 Giovanni
4 small guys

Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (19 cards)
3 Dreams of the Sphinx
3 Zillah`s Valley
3 Information Highway
1 Giant`s Blood
2 Blood Doll
4 Heidelberg Castle, Germany
1 Rotschreck
1 Fortitude
1 Vast Wealth

Action (14 cards)
7 Spirit Marionette
1 Biothaumaturgic Experiment
3 Renewed Vigor
3 Magic of the Smith

Action Modifier (16 cards)
2 Repulsion
7 Freak Drive
7 Neutral Guard

Reaction (20 cards)
4 Telepathic Misdirection
2 On the Qui Vive
3 Wake with Evening`s Freshness
2 Fast Reaction
3 Spirit`s Touch
2 Precognition
1 Eagle`s Sight
3 Enhanced Senses

Combat (15 cards)
4 Martyr`s Resilience
2 Eye of Unforgiving Heaven
4 Soak
2 Disarm
1 Shared Strength
2 Rolling with the Punches

Equipment (3 cards)
1 Flak Jacket
1 Ivory Bow
1 Blow Torch

Combo (3 cards)
3 Breath of Thanatos

This deck was last saved at 10:11:27 AM on 9/7/2007


Orpheus

unread,
Sep 7, 2007, 11:00:02 AM9/7/07
to
>> >> > Lorenzo Detuono
>>
>> >> First, I've never heard of the Detuono, not even as faraway cousins.
>> >> Where
>> >> does that come from ??
>>
>> > They don't all have Giovanni as a last name, silly!
>>
>> Now you're the Giovanni specialist, uh ?
>
> It's the only clan that I own both the novel and the clanbook.

Wow, I'm impressed ! Then you already knew that what you were saying was
stupid. Not to mention that I never said "he shouldn't exist", I said "where
does that come from", meaning I wanted info.

So
> yes, I know more than most, like Lorrie Dursirn was sired by a
> Giovanni., but no, I don't spend every waking moment obsessing about
> them.

Sure, you already spend every waking moment on this newsgroup or making
decks you can't possibly have the time to play. FYI I love Giovanni but have
much more important things to do than VTES in my life. I hope for your sake
that you do too.

>> Well, most of them do. Very few families outside the Giovanni have been
>> allowed into the clan. They are the Dunsirn, the Pisanob, the Milliners,
>> and
>> among the minor families the laibon Ghiberti, the Della Passaglia, the
>> Rossellini, the Putanesca, and no one else is mentionned in the Clanbook.
>> I
>> think there are lots of names for variety in these to pick from, and I'm
>> curious to know if there's a special reason to include a new name while
>> all
>> the minor families haven't been mentionned yet in VTES. So, who are you
>> calling silly, paesano ? B)
>
> Don't make me go there, or I will take it to the next level.

You have to be kidding. You begin that stuff by calling me silly, I answer
with a joke, and you threaten me to go into a flame war ? Go die and rot
somewhere.

>> >> > Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
>>
>> >> Inferior Aus has never been a catch on a minion with DOM. Dem is
>> >> interesting
>> >> if we get other minions with Dem / Nec or Dem / DOM (I don't really
>> >> believe
>> >> in Dem / Pot, but who knows ?).
>>
>> > Dem/Pot is strong!
>>
>> Mention a combo ?
>
> Blessings of Chaos + Thrown Sewer Lid.

Great. Making an action that won't twart any combat strategy and then hit
for 2 at LR if you're not outmaneuvered and grappled, what a great combo !
Jozxyqk's joke (wow, type that fast 10 times !) about a 10-blood coma +
Thoughts Betrayed + instant Graverob is almost more viable !

>> Ok, I won't take into account your "have you heard" crap, and pretend
>> that
>> you were courteous in your remarks, as should be the case between two
>> adult
>> players who know this game well.
>
> :P, I'm playing a children's game!

Yes, useless teasing is a child's game. VTES is just a game.

>> Obedience is totally counter-intuitive if we want to use this guy's
>> special.
>> And if we don't, why use a rushable 9-Cap ? If we want to go that way
>> Ambrogino is good. Also, Obedience has a narrow window of opportunity,
>> you
>> have to be able to react, if your other guys are midcap they'll be able
>> to
>> use it only against younger, as you well know, so it's not a miracle
>> solution, you know !
>
> Ambrogino is a Snowplow mounted on the front of a Steamroller. I put
> my 60 card Ambrogino deck in the hands of someone who has never played
> a Giovanni deck before, didn't know what the cards did, and made it to
> the finals of our local qualifier to tie for 3rd place.

I have no doubt about that.

>> There are other defense solutions, I usually include 3 Haven Uncovered in
>> any deck with a Red List, but it has to be well worth it. Enkidu doesn't
>> need that because he's a combat beast. Lorenzo should be one, except that
>> his discipline spread is disappointingon that account.
>
> How can you say that? Aura Reading, Blessings of Chaos, Thrown Sewer
> Lid, Torn Signpost, Earth Shock, Thought Betrayed.
>
> These are all top tier combat cards (or cards that affect combat).

How often have you played with those cards against a real dedicated combat
deck ? My guess would be : not often enough. Or if you did, you forgot how
painfully you died to Cel/Pot, For/Pot, Pot/Pro, Cel/guns or even just plain
Tha.

> What about Rebirth

Rebirth is good if not directed and no Carlton is in play. Would be great on
a real fighter.

> and Daemonic Possession?

Either you like Lorenzo's special or you don't. Its only advantage is to
spare card slots, and for that you have to fight with that vamp. I'd put not
DP in a Lorenzo deck, while an Ignazio deck might want one or two (but again
: Graverob is better most of the time).

>> > Have you heard of Taste of Vitae? I hear it is a good combo for
>> > potence decks.
>> > Have you heard of Disarm? I also hear it is good for potence decks.
>>
>> You mean for Potence decks which are sure that their 9-Cap will still be
>> ready at the end of the round ? See, that is the problem. With neither
>> For
>> nor Cel nor Pro, my 9-Cap will be vulnerable to a whole lot of things,
>> from
>> Cel-Pot to aggropock (and yes, I know there is Chill of Oblivion, it is
>> far
>> from an easy solution), not to mention Ani LR fight ; so I'm not worried
>> that much about non-combattants, see, he's Red List, and any dedicated
>> combat deck will own him.
>
> See, I can see a potential aus/NEC Smiling Jack wall deck that pairs
> up with Harbingers with Society of Leopold/Vampiric Disease/
> Graverobbing/Crematorium

Great. You don't need Lorenzo for that. And if you go the Pot way the
Harbingers will just get in the way. It just won't work more often than not.

>> > Everyone is
>> > vulnerable to Potence combat. The only thing that stops it is
>> > prevent. I don't see very much of that in the general metagame. Do
>> > you?
>>
>> I see some, but that isn't the problem. You might have heard of a Nec
>> card
>> that goes right through prevent. What I do see a lot in the general
>> metagame
>> is deck with more offensive combat, some of which will be very happy to
>> get
>> a free rush when they want (others, like the Tupdogs, won't care but will
>> still destroy Lorenzo any day).
>
> Tupdogs are problematic. Let's hear it for a metagame with more
> combat! Yeah!

>> > I'll take this orphan that you don't want in your family, Orpheus. :)


>>
>> Take him and use him, I love to make silly decks too but when I play I
>> want
>> to have a serious chance at winning, even with something original. While
>> I
>> believe it is feasible with Lorenzo, it would require a very heavy setup
>> (like putting For Masters on him, or lots of equip, making him able to
>> seriously intercept and / or rush, etc) which just doesn't seem worth it
>> when other Giovanni are much more dangerous (Ignazio, Sylvia...) and have
>> cards that allow the same effects (Graverob, Daemonic Possession) in a
>> deck
>> where cycling shouldn't be a problem due to Necromancy cards.
>
> ....and how does his special prevent you from playing with those
> cards?

It prevents you from nothing. Just : if you waste the deckslots, don't waste
your time on a so-so vampire and go for a fighting beast like Ignazio or
Sylvia !!

>> His special would be a welcome bonus in a real fighty deck, I'm just
>> saying
>> it is on the wrong vampire.
>
> His special is going to be nasty. I would seriously consider
> replacing Ambrogino with this guy in my power/stealth/bleed deck as he
> has that nasty special ability and swap out the Spiritual
> Interventions with Breath of Thanatos.

Great. So you'd swap a guy who once merged will have 3 bleed, 1 stealth and
eventually access to Tha for lots of nice things, for another 9-cap with no
bleed or stealth bonus, the same weakness, and a combat-oriented special
when non-combattants will avoid combat with you and fighters will destroy
you ? Fine, I wouldn't ever make such a choice.

Lorenzo could work only in very dedicated decks, and it wouldn't be eays
either.

>> >> Makes me wonder about Grouping. The justification for creating
>> >> Groupin,
>> >> apart from the obvious commercial reason, is to avoid "perfect crypts"
>> >> and
>> >> yet make new, interesting vamps. Now we do have grouping, and yet the
>> >> game
>> >> conceptors seem to behave as if we didn't (especially for the indies)
>> >> :
>> >> they
>> >> make vamps that are useless in main clan strategies, but open new
>> >> strategies
>> >> (some of which are viable, others not) : Ravnos Pre, Giovanni For etc.
>> >> ;
>> >> and
>> >> they also give us vampires full of disciplines and specials, but with
>> >> such
>> >> big downsides that we'll never play them : Red Lists, Sonja Blue,
>> >> Hector
>> >> Trelane, Rabbat... What are they thinking of ?!?
>>
>> > I hate to be the one to tell you but there are all good decks based
>> > around the "problem areas" you just mentioned.
>>
>> Lots of winning Sonja Blue decks ? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice ! Where ?
>
> How many Sonja Blue decks have you built?

None, despite the fact that I love the novels she stars in, because her
special is wayyyyyyyy too hindering.

> She is the new Jimmy Dunn,
> but with way, way better ousting disciplines.

Sure, and with lots of Diamond Thunderbolts if you ever hope to see here
among your own guys.

>> > Just because they are
>> > not showing up in the TWDA isn't because they don't exist, but is
>> > really more about "the Swiss School of Thought" being much bigger than
>> > Switzerland. I see it a lot at the NAC, and I don't see a lot of Swiss
>> > citizens there. I see a lot of predictable decks at high levels which
>> > bothers that innovation isn't for the competitive player.
>>
>> You mix things and people up, Norman.
>>
>> If the Swiss School is white and your endless sub-optimal decks are
>> black,
>> then I'm grey.
>
> Bird crap is grey too. :P

So are some cells of your brain, in theory. The non-rotted ones too.

>> I've already tried all the viable strategies available for it).
>
> Try harder.

You sanctimonous prick, go tell someone else what to do. What I said means
that I succesfully played more Nec or Giovanni decks than most players out
there, so I won't take any lesson from you.
------------

--
Orpheus
----------------
Top of Ban / Fix List : PTO, Champion, Memories of Mortality, X-Zealot.


Orpheus

unread,
Sep 7, 2007, 11:02:28 AM9/7/07
to

>>> Independent. Red List :
>>
>> Ok, so that's the end of this. If he's Red List and without a real combat
>> discipline / ability besides Pot, he won't be playable at all in a
>> straightforward Giovanni deck. One wasted 7-Cap, great ! So let's see if
>> his special makes him worthwhile, as per Ambrogino Adv :
>
> I don´t think Red List is such a big problem. I have played Mata Hari
> Decks with 0 combat cards and still nobody cared to rush me most of the
> time.

I know, and that's just incredible !! But good players won't forget about
it.

> They will think double-twice (ha!) when you have POT/NEC.

They will if they're not fighters.

> And those who can fight can also rush so they don´t even need the Red
> List.

You always can use a good cardless rush !

> Probably the worst situation could be an Embrace deck coming in with 10
> guys, but the players seem to never think of that.

Ani wall / fight ?

> The guy should be brutal with Grapple + Dead Hand + Disarm (plus an
> eventual Signpost if opponent has hitback).

I'd rather play a better combattant and some good cards.

--
Orpheus
----------------
Top of Ban / Fix List : PTO, Champion, Memories of Mortality.


Clément

unread,
Sep 7, 2007, 11:12:06 AM9/7/07
to
On Sep 7, 11:34 am, "Orpheus" wrote:
>"LSJ" wrote

>
> > atomweaver wrote:
> >> Because VTES [...]. We're writing new canon, here. Deal with it :-)
>
> > Nah. He's not new with his appearance in VTES.
>
> So, can we have a link to his previous appearance, and if possible know why
> he was chosen unto the Family ?

FWIW, I made a quick Google search and I found a Lorenzo Detuono Rage
Tribal War card (from a fan set, I believe):

Ally, 4
Lorenzo Detuono
Unique. Giovanni Vampire. Mobster. Male.
Rage 3, Gnosis 2, Health 4.
Requires: Glass Walker
Main: Play an Ally from your hand regardless of the requirements on
that card.
"He was released on his own recognizance. There were no survivors."

Abraço,

Luiz Mello

Johannes Walch

unread,
Sep 7, 2007, 11:16:35 AM9/7/07
to
Orpheus schrieb:

>>>> Independent. Red List :
>>> Ok, so that's the end of this. If he's Red List and without a real combat
>>> discipline / ability besides Pot, he won't be playable at all in a
>>> straightforward Giovanni deck. One wasted 7-Cap, great ! So let's see if
>>> his special makes him worthwhile, as per Ambrogino Adv :
>> I donŽt think Red List is such a big problem. I have played Mata Hari
>> Decks with 0 combat cards and still nobody cared to rush me most of the
>> time.
>
> I know, and that's just incredible !! But good players won't forget about
> it.

It´s just some Jedi Mind Tricks.
You I can teach, if patience you have, my young friend :)

Johannes

Orpheus

unread,
Sep 7, 2007, 11:25:12 AM9/7/07
to
> Wow, why we hatin'?
>
> Quick rant: I've noticed that a lot of people have stated that the new
> vamps are just not as good as "old" vamps. Well... duh.

As far as I'm concerned, the main factor is "good" or "not good enough",
sometimes there are better vamps in other groups, sometimes not, that's not
the main point.

> Okay, enough on that. End rant.

I could agree with your rant, mostly : new cards add variety. Now, we don't
have to love them without condition, do we ?

> Continuing on: Here's a stupid deck that I made in a couple of minutes
> with vamp in question:

I'm sorry to say that the example you chose is the epithome of what I'm
talking about : vamps and cards that have so little synergy together that
it's a suicide playing them. I'll point out the cards that you can't play
with one of your 20-pts 2-men crypt (yes, I know all about Saulot's
special... It's still expensive).

> Crypt: (4 cards, Min: 44, Max: 44, Avg: 11)
> -------------------------------------------
> 4 Saulot dai AUS FOR OBE THA VAL11
> Salubri

Now, if you could play a G2 Matthias would be an infinitely better choice
here (I already advocated for no grouping for scarce vamps...).

> 4 Lorenzo Detuono aus dem DOM NEC POT 9 Giovanni
> 4 small guys
>
> Library: (90 cards)
> -------------------
> Master (19 cards)
> 3 Dreams of the Sphinx
> 3 Zillah`s Valley
> 3 Information Highway
> 1 Giant`s Blood
> 2 Blood Doll
> 4 Heidelberg Castle, Germany
> 1 Rotschreck
> 1 Fortitude

1 or nothing is the same.

> 1 Vast Wealth

For 3 equipements, and with 3 Magic of the Smith ?

> Action (14 cards)
> 7 Spirit Marionette
> 1 Biothaumaturgic Experiment
> 3 Renewed Vigor
> 3 Magic of the Smith

All 14 are Saulot only.

>
> Action Modifier (16 cards)
> 2 Repulsion
> 7 Freak Drive
> 7 Neutral Guard

All 16 are Saulot only.

> Reaction (20 cards)
> 4 Telepathic Misdirection
> 2 On the Qui Vive
> 3 Wake with Evening`s Freshness
> 2 Fast Reaction
> 3 Spirit`s Touch
> 2 Precognition
> 1 Eagle`s Sight
> 3 Enhanced Senses
>
> Combat (15 cards)
> 4 Martyr`s Resilience

Saulot only, to protect Lorenzo.

> 2 Eye of Unforgiving Heaven
> 4 Soak

6 more Saulot only.

> 2 Disarm
> 1 Shared Strength

1 more, to help Lorenzo's absence of For.

> 2 Rolling with the Punches

2 more Saulot only.

>
> Equipment (3 cards)
> 1 Flak Jacket
> 1 Ivory Bow
> 1 Blow Torch
>
> Combo (3 cards)
> 3 Breath of Thanatos

3 Lorenzo only.

Looks to me like it's a Saulot deck with a 9-Cap added in the hope to
graverob a guy once in a while. I'd rather play better complements to the
Big Guy.

Now, I'm not saying that no deck can be made around Lorenzo !! What I'm
saying is that it requires a very heavy setup, that it would be much easier
with a better discipline spread, and that his Red List is the drop that
makes the cup spill.
--------
Orpheus


Orpheus

unread,
Sep 7, 2007, 11:25:56 AM9/7/07
to
Thanks for that Luiz. :-)

Orpheus

unread,
Sep 7, 2007, 11:26:27 AM9/7/07
to
I have played Mata Hari
>>> Decks with 0 combat cards and still nobody cared to rush me most of the
>>> time.
>>
>> I know, and that's just incredible !! But good players won't forget about
>> it.
>
> It´s just some Jedi Mind Tricks.
> You I can teach, if patience you have, my young friend :)
>
> Johannes

My Master you are, Master !
--------
Orpheus Padawan


XZealot

unread,
Sep 7, 2007, 11:38:00 AM9/7/07
to

I am kidding. That was the Sylvester Stallone quote from Get Carter.
Sorry you missed the joke.

I hear rotting is not so bad if you have necromancy.

> >> >> > Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
>
> >> >> Inferior Aus has never been a catch on a minion with DOM. Dem is
> >> >> interesting
> >> >> if we get other minions with Dem / Nec or Dem / DOM (I don't really
> >> >> believe
> >> >> in Dem / Pot, but who knows ?).
>
> >> > Dem/Pot is strong!
>
> >> Mention a combo ?
>
> > Blessings of Chaos + Thrown Sewer Lid.
>
> Great. Making an action that won't twart any combat strategy and then hit
> for 2 at LR if you're not outmaneuvered and grappled, what a great combo !
> Jozxyqk's joke (wow, type that fast 10 times !) about a 10-blood coma +
> Thoughts Betrayed + instant Graverob is almost more viable !

You asked for a good combo, but apparently in your world everyone
plays Cel Pot and Lids are 3 damage at long with a press. Also this
combo is immune to Presence/Dominate/Chimerstry/Dementation cards or
Action Modifers!!!!

or....

Lunatic Eruption, Torn Signpost/IG to play batter-up with your
predator's soft targets.

or....

Smash and Grab at both pot and dem

or..

Kindred Spirits, Conditioning, and Tangle Atropos Hand

or...

Use Fabrizia Conterez, smallest titled vampire in the game, to
Priority Shift so he isn't red list any more

or....

The list goes on and on. Damn shame you can't see it

> >> Ok, I won't take into account your "have you heard" crap, and pretend
> >> that
> >> you were courteous in your remarks, as should be the case between two
> >> adult
> >> players who know this game well.
>
> > :P, I'm playing a children's game!
>
> Yes, useless teasing is a child's game. VTES is just a game.

Now your getting the idea.

> >> Obedience is totally counter-intuitive if we want to use this guy's
> >> special.
> >> And if we don't, why use a rushable 9-Cap ? If we want to go that way
> >> Ambrogino is good. Also, Obedience has a narrow window of opportunity,
> >> you
> >> have to be able to react, if your other guys are midcap they'll be able
> >> to
> >> use it only against younger, as you well know, so it's not a miracle
> >> solution, you know !
>
> > Ambrogino is a Snowplow mounted on the front of a Steamroller. I put
> > my 60 card Ambrogino deck in the hands of someone who has never played
> > a Giovanni deck before, didn't know what the cards did, and made it to
> > the finals of our local qualifier to tie for 3rd place.
>
> I have no doubt about that.

Be Live it.

> >> There are other defense solutions, I usually include 3 Haven Uncovered in
> >> any deck with a Red List, but it has to be well worth it. Enkidu doesn't
> >> need that because he's a combat beast. Lorenzo should be one, except that
> >> his discipline spread is disappointingon that account.
>
> > How can you say that? Aura Reading, Blessings of Chaos, Thrown Sewer
> > Lid, Torn Signpost, Earth Shock, Thought Betrayed.
>
> > These are all top tier combat cards (or cards that affect combat).
>
> How often have you played with those cards against a real dedicated combat
> deck ? My guess would be : not often enough. Or if you did, you forgot how
> painfully you died to Cel/Pot, For/Pot, Pot/Pro, Cel/guns or even just plain
> Tha.
>
> > What about Rebirth
>
> Rebirth is good if not directed and no Carlton is in play. Would be great on
> a real fighter.

you can sack Carton and Daemonically Possess him too.

> > and Daemonic Possession?
>
> Either you like Lorenzo's special or you don't. Its only advantage is to
> spare card slots, and for that you have to fight with that vamp. I'd put not
> DP in a Lorenzo deck, while an Ignazio deck might want one or two (but again
> : Graverob is better most of the time).

I like him. I wouldn't base a deck around his special, but rather use
his special to rip some player's key vampire out of their deck. How
can you run an Arika deck without Arika, or Beast rush without Beast
or Saulot juicebox without Saulot?

He can stealth rush fairly easily. You could even use him with the
intercept allies and Fast Reaction.... Carlton, Harzamatouli, High
Top

> >> > Have you heard of Taste of Vitae? I hear it is a good combo for
> >> > potence decks.
> >> > Have you heard of Disarm? I also hear it is good for potence decks.
>
> >> You mean for Potence decks which are sure that their 9-Cap will still be
> >> ready at the end of the round ? See, that is the problem. With neither
> >> For
> >> nor Cel nor Pro, my 9-Cap will be vulnerable to a whole lot of things,
> >> from
> >> Cel-Pot to aggropock (and yes, I know there is Chill of Oblivion, it is
> >> far
> >> from an easy solution), not to mention Ani LR fight ; so I'm not worried
> >> that much about non-combattants, see, he's Red List, and any dedicated
> >> combat deck will own him.
>
> > See, I can see a potential aus/NEC Smiling Jack wall deck that pairs
> > up with Harbingers with Society of Leopold/Vampiric Disease/
> > Graverobbing/Crematorium
>
> Great. You don't need Lorenzo for that. And if you go the Pot way the
> Harbingers will just get in the way. It just won't work more often than not.

Potence is easy to get... Hand of Conrad, skill cards, Zygodat?

You can do that too... I hear Govern the Unaligned does wonders for
getting large vampires out into play.

> >> His special would be a welcome bonus in a real fighty deck, I'm just
> >> saying
> >> it is on the wrong vampire.
>
> > His special is going to be nasty. I would seriously consider
> > replacing Ambrogino with this guy in my power/stealth/bleed deck as he
> > has that nasty special ability and swap out the Spiritual
> > Interventions with Breath of Thanatos.
>
> Great. So you'd swap a guy who once merged will have 3 bleed, 1 stealth and
> eventually access to Tha for lots of nice things, for another 9-cap with no
> bleed or stealth bonus, the same weakness, and a combat-oriented special
> when non-combattants will avoid combat with you and fighters will destroy
> you ? Fine, I wouldn't ever make such a choice.

...and you would never learn from making such a choice.

> Lorenzo could work only in very dedicated decks, and it wouldn't be eays
> either.

Lorenzo would work in lots of decks. Especially the uber popular pot-
dom decks I see floating around.

If someone steals her then you just influence out another, watch the
old copy burn, and during your untap collect 4 pool when you gain
control of her. Havent' you heard she is better than Jimmy Dunn.

> >> > Just because they are
> >> > not showing up in the TWDA isn't because they don't exist, but is
> >> > really more about "the Swiss School of Thought" being much bigger than
> >> > Switzerland. I see it a lot at the NAC, and I don't see a lot of Swiss
> >> > citizens there. I see a lot of predictable decks at high levels which
> >> > bothers that innovation isn't for the competitive player.
>
> >> You mix things and people up, Norman.
>
> >> If the Swiss School is white and your endless sub-optimal decks are
> >> black,
> >> then I'm grey.
>
> > Bird crap is grey too. :P
>
> So are some cells of your brain, in theory. The non-rotted ones too.

My grey matter is a splatter of tatters like the Mad Hatter's cookie
batter.

> >> I've already tried all the viable strategies available for it).
>
> > Try harder.
>
> You sanctimonous prick, go tell someone else what to do. What I said means
>that I succesfully played more Nec or Giovanni decks than most players out
>there, so I won't take any lesson from you.

You haven't tried one with Lorenzo....

Comments Welcome,


Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp

And you are a


Screaming Vermillian

unread,
Sep 7, 2007, 12:22:00 PM9/7/07
to
On Sep 7, 7:13 am, "Orpheus" <orpheus...@free.fr> wrote:
> >> Lorenzo Detuono
>
> Wait, I thought he was 7-Cap but he's 9-Cap !!
>
> Really, really not worth it then. except of course if there is a new,
> non-expensive NEc card that prevents like hell.

>
> > First, I've never heard of the Detuono, not even as faraway cousins. Where
> > does that come from ??
>
> >> Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
>
> > Still, with his superior disciplines he would fit in any Gio deck if he
> > wasn't Red List.
>
> Forget that, at 9-Cap I wouldn't play him in a deck not built around him,
> even without his Red List. Wow, that one is so useless it's hard to even
> begin describing it...
>
> ----------
> Very Disappointed Orpheus

Agreed. Gaining control of oposing minions is strong, but this is a 9
Cap Red List here. He has 8 points in disciplines, so we're claiming
that his ability is worth the extra capacity and the redlist trait...
um... that's a stretch...

librarian

unread,
Sep 7, 2007, 1:14:32 PM9/7/07
to
Orpheus wrote:
>> Lorenzo Detuono

>
> First, I've never heard of the Detuono, not even as faraway cousins. Where
> does that come from ??
>
>> Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
>
> Inferior Aus has never been a catch on a minion with DOM.


Nose of the Hound.

best -

chris

--
Super Fun Cards
http://stores.ebay.com/superfuncards/
auct...@superfuncards.com

atomweaver

unread,
Sep 7, 2007, 1:19:05 PM9/7/07
to
"Orpheus" <orphe...@free.fr> wrote in
news:46e1566d$0$18284$426a...@news.free.fr:

>> Because VTES pwns your backstory now, Bitch. We're writing new
>> canon, here. Deal with it :-)
>
> Lol.
>
> Could be. Or could be they just don't care about background anymore.
>
> I'd like to hear that it is some character mentionned somewhere before
> and that I didn't know about yet.
>

He's Emerson Wilkishire's gardener... What? Well that's what i heard...

> BTW, your house just burned down. Bitch. B)

Damn you, Google Earth!!! Now, everybody can nuke me house.

DaveZ


Orpheus

unread,
Sep 7, 2007, 1:23:31 PM9/7/07
to

>>> Because VTES pwns your backstory now, Bitch. We're writing new
>>> canon, here. Deal with it :-)
>>
>> Lol.
>>
>> Could be. Or could be they just don't care about background anymore.
>>
>> I'd like to hear that it is some character mentionned somewhere before
>> and that I didn't know about yet.
>>
>
> He's Emerson Wilkishire's gardener... What? Well that's what i heard...

Re-lol.

>> BTW, your house just burned down. Bitch. B)
>
> Damn you, Google Earth!!! Now, everybody can nuke me house.
>
> DaveZ

Re-re-lol.

Orphelol.


Orpheus

unread,
Sep 7, 2007, 1:24:23 PM9/7/07
to
>>> Lorenzo Detuono
>>
>> First, I've never heard of the Detuono, not even as faraway cousins.
>> Where does that come from ??
>>
>>> Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
>>
>> Inferior Aus has never been a catch on a minion with DOM.
>
>
> Nose of the Hound.

Ok, that's a valid point. I'll remember that for Baldesar Rosselini. ;-)

librarian

unread,
Sep 7, 2007, 1:35:17 PM9/7/07
to
Orpheus wrote:
> You know what ? I've preparred this post before the image appeared, because
> if this wasn't a Giovanni I didn't know who it could be !! :-)
>
> Lorenzo Detuono
> Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
> Independent. Red List : If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the
> opposing minion is not, Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion
> to your ready region (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.
>
> Comments follow...


Deck Name: Lorenzo's Gold
Created By: shorb
Description: New deck with new Giovanni.

Lorenzo Detuono
Group 5
Capacity 9


Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT

Independent. Red List : If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the
opposing minion is not, Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing
minion
to your ready region (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.

Auspex block deck. I am considering putting in some Fast Reactions for
Lorenzo to use. Maybe better to put in a bunch of maneuvers and throw
lids instead?

Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 11, Max: 36, Avg: 5.83)
----------------------------------------------
2 Lorenzo Detuono aus dem DOM NEC POT 9 Giovanni
1 Marge Khan aus for DEM OBF POT7 Malkavian
Antitribu
1 Persephone Tar-Anis cel pot AUS DEM OBF8 Malkavian
Antitribu
2 Harold Zettler vic AUS DEM OBF POT9 Malkavian
Antitribu
2 Alicia Barrows AUS DEM OBF POT PRE9 Malkavian
Antitribu
2 Fabrizia Contreraz dem pot 4 Malkavian
Antitribu
1 Kamaria aus pot 3 Osebo
1 Ismitta aus cel pot 4 Osebo

Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (15 cards)
2 Trophy: Hunting Ground
3 Blood Doll
2 Fame
1 KRCG News Radio
1 WMRH Talk Radio
1 Rumor Mill, Tabloid Newspaper, The
1 Direct Intervention
1 Rack, The
1 Smiling Jack, The Anarch
2 Minion Tap

Action (15 cards)
3 Nose of the Hound
2 Bum`s Rush
2 Blessing of Chaos
3 Red List
2 Priority Shift
3 Kindred Spirits

Action Modifier (3 cards)
3 Eyes of Chaos

Reaction (34 cards)
10 Forced Awakening
7 Telepathic Misdirection
8 Spirit`s Touch
3 Eagle`s Sight
3 Enhanced Senses
3 Precognition

Combat (22 cards)
3 Coma
5 Taste of Vitae
7 Torn Signpost
7 Earthshock

Event (1 cards)
1 Uncoiling, The

This deck was last saved at 10:33:36 AM on 9/7/2007

Orpheus

unread,
Sep 7, 2007, 1:59:35 PM9/7/07
to
>> > Don't make me go there, or I will take it to the next level.
>>
>> You have to be kidding. You begin that stuff by calling me silly, I
>> answer
>> with a joke, and you threaten me to go into a flame war ? Go die and rot
>> somewhere.
>
> I am kidding. That was the Sylvester Stallone quote from Get Carter.
> Sorry you missed the joke.

Sorry too. Not a big Stallone fan. And that sort of put me on the edge for
the rest of the post, so next time be sure to add a smiley.

> I hear rotting is not so bad if you have necromancy.

It isn't bad for the one with necromancy, never too good for the rotting one
though... It's so hard to find a good body nowadays !

>> >> > Dem/Pot is strong!
>>
>> >> Mention a combo ?
>>
>> > Blessings of Chaos + Thrown Sewer Lid.
>>
>> Great. Making an action that won't twart any combat strategy and then hit
>> for 2 at LR if you're not outmaneuvered and grappled, what a great combo
>> !
>> Jozxyqk's joke (wow, type that fast 10 times !) about a 10-blood coma +
>> Thoughts Betrayed + instant Graverob is almost more viable !
>
> You asked for a good combo, but apparently in your world everyone
> plays Cel Pot and Lids are 3 damage at long with a press.

No, but the ones who play combat in my world don't play half-combat.

If you go the "Dem anti-discipline" way, I'd much prefer Mind of a Child,
wouldn't you ? Of course, it would require an action probably in the same
turn, can I can see something emerging here (nothing too shocking).

> Also this
> combo is immune to Presence/Dominate/Chimerstry/Dementation cards or
> Action Modifers!!!!

Not my biggest worry if I play Pot / Dom.

> or....
>
> Lunatic Eruption, Torn Signpost/IG to play batter-up with your
> predator's soft targets.

You might as well use rushes, it costs 2 less blood, gives more options
(maneuveur, press)...

> or....
>
> Smash and Grab at both pot and dem

Feasible, knowing that Gear Up is one of the best reasons to become Anarch,
but if I go the Dem bleed way it would be for the D bleed (a rush in
itself).

> or..
>
> Kindred Spirits, Conditioning,

It was fine until then ;-)

> and Tangle Atropos Hand

As you can only use it at Pot, might as well play Change of Target ; and
there is stealth available in Dem, plus you say he's a bruiser, so I
wouldn't go that way.

> or...
>
> Use Fabrizia Conterez, smallest titled vampire in the game, to
> Priority Shift so he isn't red list any more

Lots of trouble because of that Red List, just as I said : you can get rid
of it but it is immensely bothersome, so the vamp has to be very wel worth
it.

> or....
>
> The list goes on and on. Damn shame you can't see it

I see infinite possibilities ; just very few that wouls actually work either
in a friendly environment (usually lots of fighters) or in a competitive
environment (optimised decks, even the original ones).

(cut teasing crap)

(cut Ambrogino's well-deserved eulogy)

>> > What about Rebirth
>>
>> Rebirth is good if not directed and no Carlton is in play. Would be great
>> on
>> a real fighter.
>
> you can sack Carton and Daemonically Possess him too.

lol. Sure.

>> > and Daemonic Possession?
>>
>> Either you like Lorenzo's special or you don't. Its only advantage is to
>> spare card slots, and for that you have to fight with that vamp. I'd put
>> not
>> DP in a Lorenzo deck, while an Ignazio deck might want one or two (but
>> again
>> : Graverob is better most of the time).
>
> I like him. I wouldn't base a deck around his special, but rather use
> his special to rip some player's key vampire out of their deck.

I think in order to work he needs a lot of focusing in the deck, and that's
exactly my point : he's too expensive and risky for that. Of course, if you
have no desire to win you can try almost anything.

> How
> can you run an Arika deck without Arika, or Beast rush without Beast
> or Saulot juicebox without Saulot?

Granted, obviously. If / when you succeed with Lorenzo it even goes farther,
because not only does your opponent not have his vamp, but you have him
instead ! Of course, Beast will have every chance to disarm you first, but
that's exactly what I've been talking about the whole time (oh, and Saulot
might get you too or just pawn your IG).

> He can stealth rush fairly easily. You could even use him with the
> intercept allies and Fast Reaction....

Yes, that's one of the best ideas yet on this thread.

> Carlton, Harzamatouli, High
> Top

>> >> > Have you heard of Taste of Vitae? I hear it is a good combo for
>> >> > potence decks.
>> >> > Have you heard of Disarm? I also hear it is good for potence decks.

>> > See, I can see a potential aus/NEC Smiling Jack wall deck that pairs


>> > up with Harbingers with Society of Leopold/Vampiric Disease/
>> > Graverobbing/Crematorium
>>
>> Great. You don't need Lorenzo for that. And if you go the Pot way the
>> Harbingers will just get in the way. It just won't work more often than
>> not.
>
> Potence is easy to get... Hand of Conrad, skill cards, Zygodat?

Sure, everything can be done. I can run a Cel/Pot deck with Nik and Nedal
and lots of Master cards, it just won't work (easily). The difference
between a good and a bad deck is just the amount of setup it requires. See,
most Anarch decks were bad before Powerbase LA, because setting up Anarchs
requires lots of cards and that you needed something more than usual to
discard them. Anarchs are still pretty rough to play, but some concepts are
now viable because they are worth the setup. I just don't believe, on the
whole, that most of the concepts you present us with are worth the setup.

>> > ....and how does his special prevent you from playing with those
>> > cards?
>>
>> It prevents you from nothing. Just : if you waste the deckslots, don't
>> waste
>> your time on a so-so vampire and go for a fighting beast like Ignazio or
>> Sylvia !!
>
> You can do that too... I hear Govern the Unaligned does wonders for
> getting large vampires out into play.

So you heard. Me, I've played decks with Dom and big fighting vamps, and
it's always hard to get 2 of them out (like Ignazio and Baldesar) and fare
well in the game. Besides, Lorenzo's special works only when *he* is in
combat, and that's a big part of my point too.

>> Great. So you'd swap a guy who once merged will have 3 bleed, 1 stealth
>> and
>> eventually access to Tha for lots of nice things, for another 9-cap with
>> no
>> bleed or stealth bonus, the same weakness, and a combat-oriented special
>> when non-combattants will avoid combat with you and fighters will destroy
>> you ? Fine, I wouldn't ever make such a choice.
>
> ...and you would never learn from making such a choice.

Man, I've played so many crappy decks you wouldn't believe it. I've even
made some finals with decks which shouldn't have had a chance of the
smallest VP. Still, I know a crappy deck when I see one (I just might be
tempted to try it out anyway, as you seem to be). So I learn what I can,
let's each keep our house the way we want it (mine is messy).

>> Lorenzo could work only in very dedicated decks, and it wouldn't be eays
>> either.
>
> Lorenzo would work in lots of decks. Especially the uber popular pot-
> dom decks I see floating around.

The Pot-Dom decks usually involve midcaps so that when they fly around it's
no big deal ; or they have For and it's not the same at all. You should try
them out, you would see what I mean. Especially in a fighty environment.

>> >> > I hate to be the one to tell you but there are all good decks based
>