New Giovanni on preview
Orpheus
if this wasn't a Giovanni I didn't know who it could be !! :-)
Lorenzo Detuono
Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
Independent. Red List : If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the
opposing minion is not, Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion
to your ready region (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.
Comments follow...
--
Orpheus
----------------
Top of Ban / Fix List : PTO, Champion, Memories of Mortality.
Orpheus
First, I've never heard of the Detuono, not even as faraway cousins. Where
does that come from ??
> Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
Inferior Aus has never been a catch on a minion with DOM. Dem is interesting
if we get other minions with Dem / Nec or Dem / DOM (I don't really believe
in Dem / Pot, but who knows ?).
> Independent. Red List :
Ok, so that's the end of this. If he's Red List and without a real combat
discipline / ability besides Pot, he won't be playable at all in a
straightforward Giovanni deck. One wasted 7-Cap, great ! So let's see if his
special makes him worthwhile, as per Ambrogino Adv :
> If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the opposing minion is not,
> Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion to your ready region
> (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.
Incorporated Graverobbing is nice. 5 blood is 3 more than usual, not so
nice. On a minion not built for combat and usable only in combats involving
him (and not, for example, as a follow-up to Ignazio's combat) it becomes so
cornercase I'm in pain just thinking about it. What will we do, give him For
? Hope that our opponents don't play fight and are vulnerable to Pot fight ?
Still, with his superior disciplines he would fit in any Gio deck if he
wasn't Red List. But he is.
So, one wasted Family slot. Nice job. Not.
Makes me wonder about Grouping. The justification for creating Groupin,
apart from the obvious commercial reason, is to avoid "perfect crypts" and
yet make new, interesting vamps. Now we do have grouping, and yet the game
conceptors seem to behave as if we didn't (especially for the indies) : they
make vamps that are useless in main clan strategies, but open new strategies
(some of which are viable, others not) : Ravnos Pre, Giovanni For etc. ; and
they also give us vampires full of disciplines and specials, but with such
big downsides that we'll never play them : Red Lists, Sonja Blue, Hector
Trelane, Rabbat... What are they thinking of ?!?
----------
Disappointed Orpheus
Orpheus
Wait, I thought he was 7-Cap but he's 9-Cap !!
Really, really not worth it then. except of course if there is a new,
non-expensive NEc card that prevents like hell.
> First, I've never heard of the Detuono, not even as faraway cousins. Where
> does that come from ??
>
>> Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
>
> Still, with his superior disciplines he would fit in any Gio deck if he
> wasn't Red List.
Forget that, at 9-Cap I wouldn't play him in a deck not built around him,
even without his Red List. Wow, that one is so useless it's hard to even
begin describing it...
----------
Very Disappointed Orpheus
preac...@gmx.at
> > Lorenzo Detuono
>
> First, I've never heard of the Detuono, not even as faraway cousins. Where
> does that come from ??
>
> > Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
>
> Inferior Aus has never been a catch on a minion with DOM. Dem is interesting
> if we get other minions with Dem / Nec or Dem / DOM (I don't really believe
> in Dem / Pot, but who knows ?).
>
> > Independent. Red List :
>
> Ok, so that's the end of this. If he's Red List and without a real combat
> discipline / ability besides Pot, he won't be playable at all in a
> straightforward Giovanni deck. One wasted 7-Cap, great ! So let's see if his
> special makes him worthwhile, as per Ambrogino Adv :
>
> > If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the opposing minion is not,
> > Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion to your ready region
> > (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.
>
> Incorporated Graverobbing is nice. 5 blood is 3 more than usual, not so
> nice. On a minion not built for combat and usable only in combats involving
> him (and not, for example, as a follow-up to Ignazio's combat) it becomes so
> cornercase I'm in pain just thinking about it. What will we do, give him For
> ? Hope that our opponents don't play fight and are vulnerable to Pot fight ?
Just one card: Fast Reaction. 'nuff said. :)
Orpheus
>> ? Hope that our opponents don't play fight and are vulnerable to Pot
>> fight ?
>
> Just one card: Fast Reaction. 'nuff said. :)
Are U ready to base your deck on intercept with a vampire with inf Aus just
for that effect ? It could work sometimes, sure. But I wouldn't bet on its
regularity.
J
> Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
> Independent. Red List : If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the
> opposing minion is not, Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion
> to your ready region (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.
I like him.
Deadhand/Disarm built in graverob. Sure he doesn't have fortitude, or
any other ability to prevent built in, but the graverob is nice.
Expensive, but nice. Maybe in a Proxy Kissed deck. I'll definately
be trying to do something with him.
--> J
grail_pbem "at" hotmail.com
Daneel
> Still, with his superior disciplines he would fit in any Gio deck if he
> wasn't Red List. But he is.
>
> So, one wasted Family slot. Nice job. Not.
Ok, I know it isn't the greatest combo on earth, but I do see some good
synergy with, say, Heidelberg Castle + Fast Reaction + Ivory Bow /
Breath of Thanatos / Coma. Basically, you do 1 aggro or send to torpor,
take control, and transfer the blood to fuel your passion.
If you have good surprise combat Red List can actually be a benefit.
Of course this guy won't go into the DOM NEC powerbleed deck but I really
think that he could be used for a deck of his own. That said he probably
could've been an 8-cap, though, with his special costing only 4 blood,
without seriously breaking the game.
--
Regards,
Daneel
J
If anything I think this is not a wasted slot. It would have been a
wasted slot if he was just more of the same.
Alex Ek
How would he work with Rötschreck?
//Alex
Orpheus
>
> If anything I think this is not a wasted slot. It would have been a
> wasted slot if he was just more of the same.
What you're saying would be right if there was no grouping. As there is
grouping, we need in every group two sorts of vamps :
- core vamps, that you can use in most decks involving the right clan /
disciplines
- vamps opening to new strategies with new discipline combos (like Ravnos
Pre)
When I made that comment I thought the guy was 7-Cap, which is the capacity
of the biggest "core" vamps of a clan, usually, and among the lowest to have
potentially all the clan disciplines at superior. As such, it would have
been a wasted "slot".
Now I can only say that we just got a very cornercase and marginally
playable 9-Cap, which could also have been a slot used for some other useful
strategy, say a PRE Giovanni with 2 votes. But the "slot" part isn't the
core of my argument anymore, I'm more thinking "wasted paper".
LSJ
Rötschreck ends the combat with both minions ready.
Still.
XZealot
> > Lorenzo Detuono
>
> First, I've never heard of the Detuono, not even as faraway cousins. Where
> does that come from ??
They don't all have Giovanni as a last name, silly!
> > Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
>
> Inferior Aus has never been a catch on a minion with DOM. Dem is interesting
> if we get other minions with Dem / Nec or Dem / DOM (I don't really believe
> in Dem / Pot, but who knows ?).
Dem/Pot is strong!
> > Independent. Red List :
>
> Ok, so that's the end of this. If he's Red List and without a real combat
> discipline / ability besides Pot, he won't be playable at all in a
> straightforward Giovanni deck. One wasted 7-Cap, great ! So let's see if his
> special makes him worthwhile, as per Ambrogino Adv :
Right, Have you heard of Obedience. I hear it does wonders for large
caps.
> > If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the opposing minion is not,
> > Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion to your ready region
> > (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.
>
> Incorporated Graverobbing is nice. 5 blood is 3 more than usual, not so
> nice. On a minion not built for combat and usable only in combats involving
> him (and not, for example, as a follow-up to Ignazio's combat) it becomes so
> cornercase I'm in pain just thinking about it. What will we do, give him For
> ? Hope that our opponents don't play fight and are vulnerable to Pot fight ?
Have you heard of Taste of Vitae? I hear it is a good combo for
potence decks.
Have you heard of Disarm? I also hear it is good for potence decks.
I don't want to call your oppinion just a silly rant. Everyone is
vulnerable to Potence combat. The only thing that stops it is
prevent. I don't see very much of that in the general metagame. Do
you?
> Still, with his superior disciplines he would fit in any Gio deck if he
> wasn't Red List. But he is.
So, are you going to be the first one to "voluteer" your minion to
join his side because that is what it is going to consist. The first
guy who rushes him is going to get spontaneously graverobbed. Hope
you playing with a JImmy Dunn deck, because otherwise entering combat
with Lorenzo "Tutti Fruitti" Detuono is going to do actual POOL DAMAGE
to yourself in the form of a lost minion.
> So, one wasted Family slot. Nice job. Not.
I'll take this orphan that you don't want in your family, Orpheus. :)
> Makes me wonder about Grouping. The justification for creating Groupin,
> apart from the obvious commercial reason, is to avoid "perfect crypts" and
> yet make new, interesting vamps. Now we do have grouping, and yet the game
> conceptors seem to behave as if we didn't (especially for the indies) : they
> make vamps that are useless in main clan strategies, but open new strategies
> (some of which are viable, others not) : Ravnos Pre, Giovanni For etc. ; and
> they also give us vampires full of disciplines and specials, but with such
> big downsides that we'll never play them : Red Lists, Sonja Blue, Hector
> Trelane, Rabbat... What are they thinking of ?!?
I hate to be the one to tell you but there are all good decks based
around the "problem areas" you just mentioned. Just because they are
not showing up in the TWDA isn't because they don't exist, but is
really more about "the Swiss School of Thought" being much bigger than
Switzerland. I see it a lot at the NAC, and I don't see a lot of Swiss
citizens there. I see a lot of predictable decks at high levels which
bothers that innovation isn't for the competitive player.
Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp
Alex Ek
Exellent, was abit unsure there for a sec.
Thanks
//Alex
Jozxyqk
> Lorenzo Detuono
> Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
> Independent. Red List : If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the
> opposing minion is not, Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion
> to your ready region (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.
Coma
cost: 8 blood
[dem] Strike: Take control of the opposing vampire. This strike costs 5 fewer
blood if it does not resolve.
;)
With a skillcard and another blood, he can add Thoughts Betrayed, for a sure-thing
steal that only costs 10! :)
Real Questions about his ability though:
Can he steal Shambling Hordes that are burning empty (does it count as them
gaining a life)?
Can he steal Jake Washington (is Jake still a minion long enough for Lorenzo's
ability to kick in)?
LSJ
> Orpheus <orphe...@free.fr> wrote:
>> Lorenzo Detuono
>> Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
>> Independent. Red List : If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the
>> opposing minion is not, Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion
>> to your ready region (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.
>
> Coma
> cost: 8 blood
> [dem] Strike: Take control of the opposing vampire. This strike costs 5 fewer
> blood if it does not resolve.
>
> ;)
> With a skillcard and another blood, he can add Thoughts Betrayed, for a sure-thing
> steal that only costs 10! :)
>
>
> Real Questions about his ability though:
>
> Can he steal Shambling Hordes that are burning empty (does it count as them
> gaining a life)?
Anything that adds life to the SH counts as adding life.
So he can steal them and a SH empty, and then, since it is still empty, it dies.
> Can he steal Jake Washington (is Jake still a minion long enough for Lorenzo's
> ability to kick in)?
Yes. "instead"
Jeroen
> You know what ? I've preparred this post before the image appeared, because
> if this wasn't a Giovanni I didn't know who it could be !! :-)
>
> Lorenzo Detuono
> Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
> Independent. Red List : If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the
> opposing minion is not, Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion
> to your ready region (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.
>
There is a window for getting trophies on Lorenzo before using his
ability, right? Hunting ground seems a prime candidate.
Jeroen
on second thought: probably not. it's instead.
Bummer.
Orpheus
>>
>> First, I've never heard of the Detuono, not even as faraway cousins.
>> Where
>> does that come from ??
>
> They don't all have Giovanni as a last name, silly!
Now you're the Giovanni specialist, uh ?
Well, most of them do. Very few families outside the Giovanni have been
allowed into the clan. They are the Dunsirn, the Pisanob, the Milliners, and
among the minor families the laibon Ghiberti, the Della Passaglia, the
Rossellini, the Putanesca, and no one else is mentionned in the Clanbook. I
think there are lots of names for variety in these to pick from, and I'm
curious to know if there's a special reason to include a new name while all
the minor families haven't been mentionned yet in VTES. So, who are you
calling silly, paesano ? B)
>> > Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
>>
>> Inferior Aus has never been a catch on a minion with DOM. Dem is
>> interesting
>> if we get other minions with Dem / Nec or Dem / DOM (I don't really
>> believe
>> in Dem / Pot, but who knows ?).
>
> Dem/Pot is strong!
Mention a combo ?
>> > Independent. Red List :
>>
>> Ok, so that's the end of this. If he's Red List and without a real combat
>> discipline / ability besides Pot, he won't be playable at all in a
>> straightforward Giovanni deck. One wasted 7-Cap, great ! So let's see if
>> his
>> special makes him worthwhile, as per Ambrogino Adv :
>
> Right, Have you heard of Obedience. I hear it does wonders for large
> caps.
Ok, I won't take into account your "have you heard" crap, and pretend that
you were courteous in your remarks, as should be the case between two adult
players who know this game well.
Obedience is totally counter-intuitive if we want to use this guy's special.
And if we don't, why use a rushable 9-Cap ? If we want to go that way
Ambrogino is good. Also, Obedience has a narrow window of opportunity, you
have to be able to react, if your other guys are midcap they'll be able to
use it only against younger, as you well know, so it's not a miracle
solution, you know !
There are other defense solutions, I usually include 3 Haven Uncovered in
any deck with a Red List, but it has to be well worth it. Enkidu doesn't
need that because he's a combat beast. Lorenzo should be one, except that
his discipline spread is disappointingon that account.
>> > If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the opposing minion is
>> > not,
>> > Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion to your ready
>> > region
>> > (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.
>>
>> Incorporated Graverobbing is nice. 5 blood is 3 more than usual, not so
>> nice. On a minion not built for combat and usable only in combats
>> involving
>> him (and not, for example, as a follow-up to Ignazio's combat) it becomes
>> so
>> cornercase I'm in pain just thinking about it. What will we do, give him
>> For
>> ? Hope that our opponents don't play fight and are vulnerable to Pot
>> fight ?
>
> Have you heard of Taste of Vitae? I hear it is a good combo for
> potence decks.
> Have you heard of Disarm? I also hear it is good for potence decks.
You mean for Potence decks which are sure that their 9-Cap will still be
ready at the end of the round ? See, that is the problem. With neither For
nor Cel nor Pro, my 9-Cap will be vulnerable to a whole lot of things, from
Cel-Pot to aggropock (and yes, I know there is Chill of Oblivion, it is far
from an easy solution), not to mention Ani LR fight ; so I'm not worried
that much about non-combattants, see, he's Red List, and any dedicated
combat deck will own him.
> I don't want to call your oppinion just a silly rant.
You'd better not if you like your redfish uncoocked.
> Everyone is
> vulnerable to Potence combat. The only thing that stops it is
> prevent. I don't see very much of that in the general metagame. Do
> you?
I see some, but that isn't the problem. You might have heard of a Nec card
that goes right through prevent. What I do see a lot in the general metagame
is deck with more offensive combat, some of which will be very happy to get
a free rush when they want (others, like the Tupdogs, won't care but will
still destroy Lorenzo any day).
>> Still, with his superior disciplines he would fit in any Gio deck if he
>> wasn't Red List. But he is.
>
> So, are you going to be the first one to "voluteer" your minion to
> join his side because that is what it is going to consist. The first
> guy who rushes him is going to get spontaneously graverobbed. Hope
> you playing with a JImmy Dunn deck, because otherwise entering combat
> with Lorenzo "Tutti Fruitti" Detuono is going to do actual POOL DAMAGE
> to yourself in the form of a lost minion
If I have any well-built combat deck, I think I'll volunteer Lorenzo to join
MY side. Of course if he had FOR it would be quite different.
>> So, one wasted Family slot. Nice job. Not.
>
> I'll take this orphan that you don't want in your family, Orpheus. :)
Take him and use him, I love to make silly decks too but when I play I want
to have a serious chance at winning, even with something original. While I
believe it is feasible with Lorenzo, it would require a very heavy setup
(like putting For Masters on him, or lots of equip, making him able to
seriously intercept and / or rush, etc) which just doesn't seem worth it
when other Giovanni are much more dangerous (Ignazio, Sylvia...) and have
cards that allow the same effects (Graverob, Daemonic Possession) in a deck
where cycling shouldn't be a problem due to Necromancy cards.
His special would be a welcome bonus in a real fighty deck, I'm just saying
it is on the wrong vampire.
>> Makes me wonder about Grouping. The justification for creating Groupin,
>> apart from the obvious commercial reason, is to avoid "perfect crypts"
>> and
>> yet make new, interesting vamps. Now we do have grouping, and yet the
>> game
>> conceptors seem to behave as if we didn't (especially for the indies) :
>> they
>> make vamps that are useless in main clan strategies, but open new
>> strategies
>> (some of which are viable, others not) : Ravnos Pre, Giovanni For etc. ;
>> and
>> they also give us vampires full of disciplines and specials, but with
>> such
>> big downsides that we'll never play them : Red Lists, Sonja Blue, Hector
>> Trelane, Rabbat... What are they thinking of ?!?
>
> I hate to be the one to tell you but there are all good decks based
> around the "problem areas" you just mentioned.
Lots of winning Sonja Blue decks ? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice ! Where ?
> Just because they are
> not showing up in the TWDA isn't because they don't exist, but is
> really more about "the Swiss School of Thought" being much bigger than
> Switzerland. I see it a lot at the NAC, and I don't see a lot of Swiss
> citizens there. I see a lot of predictable decks at high levels which
> bothers that innovation isn't for the competitive player.
You mix things and people up, Norman.
If the Swiss School is white and your endless sub-optimal decks are black,
then I'm grey.
What I like is neither to play what everyone does nor to make decklists that
will get pawned more often than not, but to find nice and innovative
concepts that can actually work with a bit of tuning. Everyone gets his
kicks from where he can. I'll never understand the swiss PoV because to me
it's utterly boring, but I still don't have to applaud every time a
cornercase vampire hits the lists (especially not when it's in my favourite
clan, for which I always entertain high hopes of playable novelties, because
I've already tried all the viable strategies available for it).
LSJ
Correct.
atomweaver
news:46e150fb$0$21872$426a...@news.free.fr:
>>> > Lorenzo Detuono
>>>
>>> First, I've never heard of the Detuono, not even as faraway cousins.
>>> Where
>>> does that come from ??
>>
>> They don't all have Giovanni as a last name, silly!
>
> Now you're the Giovanni specialist, uh ?
>
> Well, most of them do. Very few families outside the Giovanni have
> been allowed into the clan. They are the Dunsirn, the Pisanob, the
> Milliners, and among the minor families the laibon Ghiberti, the Della
> Passaglia, the Rossellini, the Putanesca, and no one else is
> mentionned in the Clanbook. I think there are lots of names for
> variety in these to pick from, and I'm curious to know if there's a
> special reason to include a new name while all the minor families
> haven't been mentionned yet in VTES. So, who are you calling silly,
> paesano ? B)
>
Because VTES pwns your backstory now, Bitch. We're writing new canon,
here. Deal with it :-)
DZ
AW
LSJ
> Because VTES [...]. We're writing new canon,
Nah. He's not new with his appearance in VTES.
Orpheus
Lol.
Could be. Or could be they just don't care about background anymore.
I'd like to hear that it is some character mentionned somewhere before and
that I didn't know about yet.
BTW, your house just burned down. Bitch. B)
---------
Orpheus, Enzo Giovanni's best friend from college.
XZealot
> >> > Lorenzo Detuono
>
> >> First, I've never heard of the Detuono, not even as faraway cousins.
> >> Where
> >> does that come from ??
>
> > They don't all have Giovanni as a last name, silly!
>
> Now you're the Giovanni specialist, uh ?
It's the only clan that I own both the novel and the clanbook. So
yes, I know more than most, like Lorrie Dursirn was sired by a
Giovanni., but no, I don't spend every waking moment obsessing about
them.
> Well, most of them do. Very few families outside the Giovanni have been
> allowed into the clan. They are the Dunsirn, the Pisanob, the Milliners, and
> among the minor families the laibon Ghiberti, the Della Passaglia, the
> Rossellini, the Putanesca, and no one else is mentionned in the Clanbook. I
> think there are lots of names for variety in these to pick from, and I'm
> curious to know if there's a special reason to include a new name while all
> the minor families haven't been mentionned yet in VTES. So, who are you
> calling silly, paesano ? B)
Don't make me go there, or I will take it to the next level.
> >> > Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
>
> >> Inferior Aus has never been a catch on a minion with DOM. Dem is
> >> interesting
> >> if we get other minions with Dem / Nec or Dem / DOM (I don't really
> >> believe
> >> in Dem / Pot, but who knows ?).
>
> > Dem/Pot is strong!
>
> Mention a combo ?
Blessings of Chaos + Thrown Sewer Lid.
> >> > Independent. Red List :
>
> >> Ok, so that's the end of this. If he's Red List and without a real combat
> >> discipline / ability besides Pot, he won't be playable at all in a
> >> straightforward Giovanni deck. One wasted 7-Cap, great ! So let's see if
> >> his
> >> special makes him worthwhile, as per Ambrogino Adv :
>
> > Right, Have you heard of Obedience. I hear it does wonders for large
> > caps.
>
> Ok, I won't take into account your "have you heard" crap, and pretend that
> you were courteous in your remarks, as should be the case between two adult
> players who know this game well.
:P, I'm playing a children's game!
> Obedience is totally counter-intuitive if we want to use this guy's special.
> And if we don't, why use a rushable 9-Cap ? If we want to go that way
> Ambrogino is good. Also, Obedience has a narrow window of opportunity, you
> have to be able to react, if your other guys are midcap they'll be able to
> use it only against younger, as you well know, so it's not a miracle
> solution, you know !
Ambrogino is a Snowplow mounted on the front of a Steamroller. I put
my 60 card Ambrogino deck in the hands of someone who has never played
a Giovanni deck before, didn't know what the cards did, and made it to
the finals of our local qualifier to tie for 3rd place.
> There are other defense solutions, I usually include 3 Haven Uncovered in
> any deck with a Red List, but it has to be well worth it. Enkidu doesn't
> need that because he's a combat beast. Lorenzo should be one, except that
> his discipline spread is disappointingon that account.
How can you say that? Aura Reading, Blessings of Chaos, Thrown Sewer
Lid, Torn Signpost, Earth Shock, Thought Betrayed.
These are all top tier combat cards (or cards that affect combat).
What about Rebirth and Daemonic Possession?
> >> > If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the opposing minion is
> >> > not,
> >> > Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion to your ready
> >> > region
> >> > (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.
>
> >> Incorporated Graverobbing is nice. 5 blood is 3 more than usual, not so
> >> nice. On a minion not built for combat and usable only in combats
> >> involving
> >> him (and not, for example, as a follow-up to Ignazio's combat) it becomes
> >> so
> >> cornercase I'm in pain just thinking about it. What will we do, give him
> >> For
> >> ? Hope that our opponents don't play fight and are vulnerable to Pot
> >> fight ?
>
> > Have you heard of Taste of Vitae? I hear it is a good combo for
> > potence decks.
> > Have you heard of Disarm? I also hear it is good for potence decks.
>
> You mean for Potence decks which are sure that their 9-Cap will still be
> ready at the end of the round ? See, that is the problem. With neither For
> nor Cel nor Pro, my 9-Cap will be vulnerable to a whole lot of things, from
> Cel-Pot to aggropock (and yes, I know there is Chill of Oblivion, it is far
> from an easy solution), not to mention Ani LR fight ; so I'm not worried
> that much about non-combattants, see, he's Red List, and any dedicated
> combat deck will own him.
See, I can see a potential aus/NEC Smiling Jack wall deck that pairs
up with Harbingers with Society of Leopold/Vampiric Disease/
Graverobbing/Crematorium.
> > I don't want to call your oppinion just a silly rant.
>
> You'd better not if you like your redfish uncoocked.
I don't know what that means? It's like a rooster with socks.
> > Everyone is
> > vulnerable to Potence combat. The only thing that stops it is
> > prevent. I don't see very much of that in the general metagame. Do
> > you?
>
> I see some, but that isn't the problem. You might have heard of a Nec card
> that goes right through prevent. What I do see a lot in the general metagame
> is deck with more offensive combat, some of which will be very happy to get
> a free rush when they want (others, like the Tupdogs, won't care but will
> still destroy Lorenzo any day).
Tupdogs are problematic. Let's hear it for a metagame with more
combat! Yeah!
> >> Still, with his superior disciplines he would fit in any Gio deck if he
> >> wasn't Red List. But he is.
>
> > So, are you going to be the first one to "voluteer" your minion to
> > join his side because that is what it is going to consist. The first
> > guy who rushes him is going to get spontaneously graverobbed. Hope
> > you playing with a JImmy Dunn deck, because otherwise entering combat
> > with Lorenzo "Tutti Fruitti" Detuono is going to do actual POOL DAMAGE
> > to yourself in the form of a lost minion
>
> If I have any well-built combat deck, I think I'll volunteer Lorenzo to join
> MY side. Of course if he had FOR it would be quite different.
>
> >> So, one wasted Family slot. Nice job. Not.
>
> > I'll take this orphan that you don't want in your family, Orpheus. :)
>
> Take him and use him, I love to make silly decks too but when I play I want
> to have a serious chance at winning, even with something original. While I
> believe it is feasible with Lorenzo, it would require a very heavy setup
> (like putting For Masters on him, or lots of equip, making him able to
> seriously intercept and / or rush, etc) which just doesn't seem worth it
> when other Giovanni are much more dangerous (Ignazio, Sylvia...) and have
> cards that allow the same effects (Graverob, Daemonic Possession) in a deck
> where cycling shouldn't be a problem due to Necromancy cards.
....and how does his special prevent you from playing with those
cards?
> His special would be a welcome bonus in a real fighty deck, I'm just saying
> it is on the wrong vampire.
His special is going to be nasty. I would seriously consider
replacing Ambrogino with this guy in my power/stealth/bleed deck as he
has that nasty special ability and swap out the Spiritual
Interventions with Breath of Thanatos.
> >> Makes me wonder about Grouping. The justification for creating Groupin,
> >> apart from the obvious commercial reason, is to avoid "perfect crypts"
> >> and
> >> yet make new, interesting vamps. Now we do have grouping, and yet the
> >> game
> >> conceptors seem to behave as if we didn't (especially for the indies) :
> >> they
> >> make vamps that are useless in main clan strategies, but open new
> >> strategies
> >> (some of which are viable, others not) : Ravnos Pre, Giovanni For etc. ;
> >> and
> >> they also give us vampires full of disciplines and specials, but with
> >> such
> >> big downsides that we'll never play them : Red Lists, Sonja Blue, Hector
> >> Trelane, Rabbat... What are they thinking of ?!?
>
> > I hate to be the one to tell you but there are all good decks based
> > around the "problem areas" you just mentioned.
>
> Lots of winning Sonja Blue decks ? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice ! Where ?
How many Sonja Blue decks have you built? She is the new Jimmy Dunn,
but with way, way better ousting disciplines.
> > Just because they are
> > not showing up in the TWDA isn't because they don't exist, but is
> > really more about "the Swiss School of Thought" being much bigger than
> > Switzerland. I see it a lot at the NAC, and I don't see a lot of Swiss
> > citizens there. I see a lot of predictable decks at high levels which
> > bothers that innovation isn't for the competitive player.
>
> You mix things and people up, Norman.
>
> If the Swiss School is white and your endless sub-optimal decks are black,
> then I'm grey.
Bird crap is grey too. :P
> What I like is neither to play what everyone does nor to make decklists that
> will get pawned more often than not, but to find nice and innovative
> concepts that can actually work with a bit of tuning. Everyone gets his
> kicks from where he can. I'll never understand the swiss PoV because to me
> it's utterly boring, but I still don't have to applaud every time a
> cornercase vampire hits the lists (especially not when it's in my favourite
> clan, for which I always entertain high hopes of playable novelties, because
> I've already tried all the viable strategies available for it).
Try harder.
Comments Welocme,
Johannes Walch
>> Independent. Red List :
>
> Ok, so that's the end of this. If he's Red List and without a real combat
> discipline / ability besides Pot, he won't be playable at all in a
> straightforward Giovanni deck. One wasted 7-Cap, great ! So let's see if his
> special makes him worthwhile, as per Ambrogino Adv :
I don´t think Red List is such a big problem. I have played Mata Hari
Decks with 0 combat cards and still nobody cared to rush me most of the
time. They will think double-twice (ha!) when you have POT/NEC. And
those who can fight can also rush so they don´t even need the Red List.
Probably the worst situation could be an Embrace deck coming in with 10
guys, but the players seem to never think of that.
The guy should be brutal with Grapple + Dead Hand + Disarm (plus an
eventual Signpost if opponent has hitback).
--
Johannes Walch
Orpheus
Top of Ban / Fix List : PTO, Champion, Memories of Mortality.
news:tCcEi.8342$924....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
> atomweaver wrote:
>> Because VTES [...]. We're writing new canon, here. Deal with it :-)
>
> Nah. He's not new with his appearance in VTES.
So, can we have a link to his previous appearance, and if possible know why
he was chosen unto the Family ?
-------
Orpheus, Family Archivist
adam....@gmail.com
Quick rant: I've noticed that a lot of people have stated that the new
vamps are just not as good as "old" vamps. Well... duh.
Throughout the years, this game has been played and played and played.
The earlier vamps were created, and guess what, the designers did not
have all the answers and made some cards overpowered. No new 11-cap is
as good as Arika? Good. That means they learned their lesson. This
game is all about diversity, many desks are playable and more
importantly fun. If someone ONLY has fun in this game by running
around the table with Group 1 Malks Stealth Bleed... then I think its
time for new hobby. (At least play the new Assamites / Gangrel
Antitribu for god's sake. How the hell did they end up with OBF-DOM???
LOL )
The game designers make new cards to innovate and make us think of new
tactics. That's one of the best things of this game. All these types
of card games have deck design. VTES has the most diversity in deck
design because so many factors have to be taken into consideration.
4-5 players. Offense. Defense. Metagame. Table talk. Just to name a
few.
Okay, enough on that. End rant.
Continuing on: Here's a stupid deck that I made in a couple of minutes
with vamp in question:
Lorenzo Detuono
Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
9-cap
Independent. Red List : If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and
the
opposing minion is not, Lorenzo may burn 5 blood to move the opposing
minion
to your ready region (with 1 life for an ally with no life) instead.
Deck Name: Damned if you do, damned if you don't
Created By:
Description: A wallish deck. If they tap to attack you, you block and
try to get off Lorenzo's special. If they don't, you spirit marionette
steal. Obviously needs work but this is to make a point. Enjoy!
Crypt: (4 cards, Min: 44, Max: 44, Avg: 11)
-------------------------------------------
4 Saulot dai AUS FOR OBE THA VAL11
Salubri
4 Lorenzo Detuono aus dem DOM NEC POT 9 Giovanni
4 small guys
Library: (90 cards)
-------------------
Master (19 cards)
3 Dreams of the Sphinx
3 Zillah`s Valley
3 Information Highway
1 Giant`s Blood
2 Blood Doll
4 Heidelberg Castle, Germany
1 Rotschreck
1 Fortitude
1 Vast Wealth
Action (14 cards)
7 Spirit Marionette
1 Biothaumaturgic Experiment
3 Renewed Vigor
3 Magic of the Smith
Action Modifier (16 cards)
2 Repulsion
7 Freak Drive
7 Neutral Guard
Reaction (20 cards)
4 Telepathic Misdirection
2 On the Qui Vive
3 Wake with Evening`s Freshness
2 Fast Reaction
3 Spirit`s Touch
2 Precognition
1 Eagle`s Sight
3 Enhanced Senses
Combat (15 cards)
4 Martyr`s Resilience
2 Eye of Unforgiving Heaven
4 Soak
2 Disarm
1 Shared Strength
2 Rolling with the Punches
Equipment (3 cards)
1 Flak Jacket
1 Ivory Bow
1 Blow Torch
Combo (3 cards)
3 Breath of Thanatos
This deck was last saved at 10:11:27 AM on 9/7/2007
Orpheus
>>
>> >> First, I've never heard of the Detuono, not even as faraway cousins.
>> >> Where
>> >> does that come from ??
>>
>> > They don't all have Giovanni as a last name, silly!
>>
>> Now you're the Giovanni specialist, uh ?
>
> It's the only clan that I own both the novel and the clanbook.
Wow, I'm impressed ! Then you already knew that what you were saying was
stupid. Not to mention that I never said "he shouldn't exist", I said "where
does that come from", meaning I wanted info.
So
> yes, I know more than most, like Lorrie Dursirn was sired by a
> Giovanni., but no, I don't spend every waking moment obsessing about
> them.
Sure, you already spend every waking moment on this newsgroup or making
decks you can't possibly have the time to play. FYI I love Giovanni but have
much more important things to do than VTES in my life. I hope for your sake
that you do too.
>> Well, most of them do. Very few families outside the Giovanni have been
>> allowed into the clan. They are the Dunsirn, the Pisanob, the Milliners,
>> and
>> among the minor families the laibon Ghiberti, the Della Passaglia, the
>> Rossellini, the Putanesca, and no one else is mentionned in the Clanbook.
>> I
>> think there are lots of names for variety in these to pick from, and I'm
>> curious to know if there's a special reason to include a new name while
>> all
>> the minor families haven't been mentionned yet in VTES. So, who are you
>> calling silly, paesano ? B)
>
> Don't make me go there, or I will take it to the next level.
You have to be kidding. You begin that stuff by calling me silly, I answer
with a joke, and you threaten me to go into a flame war ? Go die and rot
somewhere.
>> >> > Aus / Dem / DOM / NEC / POT
>>
>> >> Inferior Aus has never been a catch on a minion with DOM. Dem is
>> >> interesting
>> >> if we get other minions with Dem / Nec or Dem / DOM (I don't really
>> >> believe
>> >> in Dem / Pot, but who knows ?).
>>
>> > Dem/Pot is strong!
>>
>> Mention a combo ?
>
> Blessings of Chaos + Thrown Sewer Lid.
Great. Making an action that won't twart any combat strategy and then hit
for 2 at LR if you're not outmaneuvered and grappled, what a great combo !
Jozxyqk's joke (wow, type that fast 10 times !) about a 10-blood coma +
Thoughts Betrayed + instant Graverob is almost more viable !
>> Ok, I won't take into account your "have you heard" crap, and pretend
>> that
>> you were courteous in your remarks, as should be the case between two
>> adult
>> players who know this game well.
>
> :P, I'm playing a children's game!
Yes, useless teasing is a child's game. VTES is just a game.
>> Obedience is totally counter-intuitive if we want to use this guy's
>> special.
>> And if we don't, why use a rushable 9-Cap ? If we want to go that way
>> Ambrogino is good. Also, Obedience has a narrow window of opportunity,
>> you
>> have to be able to react, if your other guys are midcap they'll be able
>> to
>> use it only against younger, as you well know, so it's not a miracle
>> solution, you know !
>
> Ambrogino is a Snowplow mounted on the front of a Steamroller. I put
> my 60 card Ambrogino deck in the hands of someone who has never played
> a Giovanni deck before, didn't know what the cards did, and made it to
> the finals of our local qualifier to tie for 3rd place.
I have no doubt about that.
>> There are other defense solutions, I usually include 3 Haven Uncovered in
>> any deck with a Red List, but it has to be well worth it. Enkidu doesn't
>> need that because he's a combat beast. Lorenzo should be one, except that
>> his discipline spread is disappointingon that account.
>
> How can you say that? Aura Reading, Blessings of Chaos, Thrown Sewer
> Lid, Torn Signpost, Earth Shock, Thought Betrayed.
>
> These are all top tier combat cards (or cards that affect combat).
How often have you played with those cards against a real dedicated combat
deck ? My guess would be : not often enough. Or if you did, you forgot how
painfully you died to Cel/Pot, For/Pot, Pot/Pro, Cel/guns or even just plain
Tha.
> What about Rebirth
Rebirth is good if not directed and no Carlton is in play. Would be great on
a real fighter.
> and Daemonic Possession?
Either you like Lorenzo's special or you don't. Its only advantage is to
spare card slots, and for that you have to fight with that vamp. I'd put not
DP in a Lorenzo deck, while an Ignazio deck might want one or two (but again
: Graverob is better most of the time).
>> > Have you heard of Taste of Vitae? I hear it is a good combo for
>> > potence decks.
>> > Have you heard of Disarm? I also hear it is good for potence decks.
>>
>> You mean for Potence decks which are sure that their 9-Cap will still be
>> ready at the end of the round ? See, that is the problem. With neither
>> For
>> nor Cel nor Pro, my 9-Cap will be vulnerable to a whole lot of things,
>> from
>> Cel-Pot to aggropock (and yes, I know there is Chill of Oblivion, it is
>> far
>> from an easy solution), not to mention Ani LR fight ; so I'm not worried
>> that much about non-combattants, see, he's Red List, and any dedicated
>> combat deck will own him.
>
> See, I can see a potential aus/NEC Smiling Jack wall deck that pairs
> up with Harbingers with Society of Leopold/Vampiric Disease/
> Graverobbing/Crematorium
Great. You don't need Lorenzo for that. And if you go the Pot way the
Harbingers will just get in the way. It just won't work more often than not.
>> > Everyone is
>> > vulnerable to Potence combat. The only thing that stops it is
>> > prevent. I don't see very much of that in the general metagame. Do
>> > you?
>>
>> I see some, but that isn't the problem. You might have heard of a Nec
>> card
>> that goes right through prevent. What I do see a lot in the general
>> metagame
>> is deck with more offensive combat, some of which will be very happy to
>> get
>> a free rush when they want (others, like the Tupdogs, won't care but will
>> still destroy Lorenzo any day).
>
> Tupdogs are problematic. Let's hear it for a metagame with more
> combat! Yeah!
>> > I'll take this orphan that you don't want in your family, Orpheus. :)
>>
>> Take him and use him, I love to make silly decks too but when I play I
>> want
>> to have a serious chance at winning, even with something original. While
>> I
>> believe it is feasible with Lorenzo, it would require a very heavy setup
>> (like putting For Masters on him, or lots of equip, making him able to
>> seriously intercept and / or rush, etc) which just doesn't seem worth it
>> when other Giovanni are much more dangerous (Ignazio, Sylvia...) and have
>> cards that allow the same effects (Graverob, Daemonic Possession) in a
>> deck
>> where cycling shouldn't be a problem due to Necromancy cards.
>
> ....and how does his special prevent you from playing with those
> cards?
It prevents you from nothing. Just : if you waste the deckslots, don't waste
your time on a so-so vampire and go for a fighting beast like Ignazio or
Sylvia !!
>> His special would be a welcome bonus in a real fighty deck, I'm just
>> saying
>> it is on the wrong vampire.
>
> His special is going to be nasty. I would seriously consider
> replacing Ambrogino with this guy in my power/stealth/bleed deck as he
> has that nasty special ability and swap out the Spiritual
> Interventions with Breath of Thanatos.
Great. So you'd swap a guy who once merged will have 3 bleed, 1 stealth and
eventually access to Tha for lots of nice things, for another 9-cap with no
bleed or stealth bonus, the same weakness, and a combat-oriented special
when non-combattants will avoid combat with you and fighters will destroy
you ? Fine, I wouldn't ever make such a choice.
Lorenzo could work only in very dedicated decks, and it wouldn't be eays
either.
>> >> Makes me wonder about Grouping. The justification for creating
>> >> Groupin,
>> >> apart from the obvious commercial reason, is to avoid "perfect crypts"
>> >> and
>> >> yet make new, interesting vamps. Now we do have grouping, and yet the
>> >> game
>> >> conceptors seem to behave as if we didn't (especially for the indies)
>> >> :
>> >> they
>> >> make vamps that are useless in main clan strategies, but open new
>> >> strategies
>> >> (some of which are viable, others not) : Ravnos Pre, Giovanni For etc.
>> >> ;
>> >> and
>> >> they also give us vampires full of disciplines and specials, but with
>> >> such
>> >> big downsides that we'll never play them : Red Lists, Sonja Blue,
>> >> Hector
>> >> Trelane, Rabbat... What are they thinking of ?!?
>>
>> > I hate to be the one to tell you but there are all good decks based
>> > around the "problem areas" you just mentioned.
>>
>> Lots of winning Sonja Blue decks ? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice ! Where ?
>
> How many Sonja Blue decks have you built?
None, despite the fact that I love the novels she stars in, because her
special is wayyyyyyyy too hindering.
> She is the new Jimmy Dunn,
> but with way, way better ousting disciplines.
Sure, and with lots of Diamond Thunderbolts if you ever hope to see here
among your own guys.
>> > Just because they are
>> > not showing up in the TWDA isn't because they don't exist, but is
>> > really more about "the Swiss School of Thought" being much bigger than
>> > Switzerland. I see it a lot at the NAC, and I don't see a lot of Swiss
>> > citizens there. I see a lot of predictable decks at high levels which
>> > bothers that innovation isn't for the competitive player.
>>
>> You mix things and people up, Norman.
>>
>> If the Swiss School is white and your endless sub-optimal decks are
>> black,
>> then I'm grey.
>
> Bird crap is grey too. :P
So are some cells of your brain, in theory. The non-rotted ones too.
>> I've already tried all the viable strategies available for it).
>
> Try harder.
You sanctimonous prick, go tell someone else what to do. What I said means
that I succesfully played more Nec or Giovanni decks than most players out
there, so I won't take any lesson from you.
------------
--
Orpheus
----------------
Top of Ban / Fix List : PTO, Champion, Memories of Mortality, X-Zealot.
Orpheus
>>> Independent. Red List :
>>
>> Ok, so that's the end of this. If he's Red List and without a real combat
>> discipline / ability besides Pot, he won't be playable at all in a
>> straightforward Giovanni deck. One wasted 7-Cap, great ! So let's see if
>> his special makes him worthwhile, as per Ambrogino Adv :
>
> I don´t think Red List is such a big problem. I have played Mata Hari
> Decks with 0 combat cards and still nobody cared to rush me most of the
> time.
I know, and that's just incredible !! But good players won't forget about
it.
> They will think double-twice (ha!) when you have POT/NEC.
They will if they're not fighters.
> And those who can fight can also rush so they don´t even need the Red
> List.
You always can use a good cardless rush !
> Probably the worst situation could be an Embrace deck coming in with 10
> guys, but the players seem to never think of that.
Ani wall / fight ?
> The guy should be brutal with Grapple + Dead Hand + Disarm (plus an
> eventual Signpost if opponent has hitback).
I'd rather play a better combattant and some good cards.
--
Orpheus
----------------
Top of Ban / Fix List : PTO, Champion, Memories of Mortality.
Clément
>"LSJ" wrote
>
> > atomweaver wrote:
> >> Because VTES [...]. We're writing new canon, here. Deal with it :-)
>
> > Nah. He's not new with his appearance in VTES.
>
> So, can we have a link to his previous appearance, and if possible know why
> he was chosen unto the Family ?
FWIW, I made a quick Google search and I found a Lorenzo Detuono Rage
Tribal War card (from a fan set, I believe):
Ally, 4
Lorenzo Detuono
Unique. Giovanni Vampire. Mobster. Male.
Rage 3, Gnosis 2, Health 4.
Requires: Glass Walker
Main: Play an Ally from your hand regardless of the requirements on
that card.
"He was released on his own recognizance. There were no survivors."
Abraço,
Luiz Mello
Johannes Walch
>>>> Independent. Red List :
>>> Ok, so that's the end of this. If he's Red List and without a real combat
>>> discipline / ability besides Pot, he won't be playable at all in a
>>> straightforward Giovanni deck. One wasted 7-Cap, great ! So let's see if
>>> his special makes him worthwhile, as per Ambrogino Adv :
>> time.
>
> I know, and that's just incredible !! But good players won't forget about
> it.
It´s just some Jedi Mind Tricks.
You I can teach, if patience you have, my young friend :)
Johannes
Orpheus
>
> Quick rant: I've noticed that a lot of people have stated that the new
> vamps are just not as good as "old" vamps. Well... duh.
As far as I'm concerned, the main factor is "good" or "not good enough",
sometimes there are better vamps in other groups, sometimes not, that's not
the main point.
> Okay, enough on that. End rant.
I could agree with your rant, mostly : new cards add variety. Now, we don't
have to love them without condition, do we ?
> Continuing on: Here's a stupid deck that I made in a couple of minutes
> with vamp in question:
I'm sorry to say that the example you chose is the epithome of what I'm
talking about : vamps and cards that have so little synergy together that
it's a suicide playing them. I'll point out the cards that you can't play
with one of your 20-pts 2-men crypt (yes, I know all about Saulot's
special... It's still expensive).
> Crypt: (4 cards, Min: 44, Max: 44, Avg: 11)
> -------------------------------------------
> 4 Saulot dai AUS FOR OBE THA VAL11
> Salubri
Now, if you could play a G2 Matthias would be an infinitely better choice
here (I already advocated for no grouping for scarce vamps...).
> 4 Lorenzo Detuono aus dem DOM NEC POT 9 Giovanni
> 4 small guys
>
> Library: (90 cards)
> -------------------
> Master (19 cards)
> 3 Dreams of the Sphinx
> 3 Zillah`s Valley
> 3 Information Highway
> 1 Giant`s Blood
> 2 Blood Doll
> 4 Heidelberg Castle, Germany
> 1 Rotschreck
> 1 Fortitude
1 or nothing is the same.
> 1 Vast Wealth
For 3 equipements, and with 3 Magic of the Smith ?
> Action (14 cards)
> 7 Spirit Marionette
> 1 Biothaumaturgic Experiment
> 3 Renewed Vigor
> 3 Magic of the Smith
All 14 are Saulot only.
>
> Action Modifier (16 cards)
> 2 Repulsion
> 7 Freak Drive
> 7 Neutral Guard
All 16 are Saulot only.
> Reaction (20 cards)
> 4 Telepathic Misdirection
> 2 On the Qui Vive
> 3 Wake with Evening`s Freshness
> 2 Fast Reaction
> 3 Spirit`s Touch
> 2 Precognition
> 1 Eagle`s Sight
> 3 Enhanced Senses
>
> Combat (15 cards)
> 4 Martyr`s Resilience
Saulot only, to protect Lorenzo.
> 2 Eye of Unforgiving Heaven
> 4 Soak
6 more Saulot only.
> 2 Disarm
> 1 Shared Strength
1 more, to help Lorenzo's absence of For.
> 2 Rolling with the Punches
2 more Saulot only.
>
> Equipment (3 cards)
> 1 Flak Jacket
> 1 Ivory Bow
> 1 Blow Torch
>
> Combo (3 cards)
> 3 Breath of Thanatos
3 Lorenzo only.
Looks to me like it's a Saulot deck with a 9-Cap added in the hope to
graverob a guy once in a while. I'd rather play better complements to the
Big Guy.
Now, I'm not saying that no deck can be made around Lorenzo !! What I'm
saying is that it requires a very heavy setup, that it would be much easier
with a better discipline spread, and that his Red List is the drop that
makes the cup spill.
--------
Orpheus
Orpheus
Orpheus
>>> Decks with 0 combat cards and still nobody cared to rush me most of the
>>> time.
>>
>> I know, and that's just incredible !! But good players won't forget about
>> it.
>
> It´s just some Jedi Mind Tricks.
> You I can teach, if patience you have, my young friend :)
>
> Johannes
My Master you are, Master !
--------
Orpheus Padawan