General game defintitions

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L. Scott Johnson

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Feb 24, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/24/97
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To clear up a few points that may have been clouded by earlier
conflicting or ambiguous statements:

Wild Hunt - is another name for a Blood Hunt. The terms are interchangeable.
You do not have to control any particular type of anything to call one or
the other. For flavor, one usually calls a Wild Hunt on a Sabbat diabolist,
and a Blood Hunt on a Camarilla diabolist - but this distinction has no
effect on the game.

Hand Strike - any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based
on the striking minion's hand damage, or any minion's non-ranged
damage-dealing innate strike.

Hand Damage - damage from a hand strike.
e.g. Damage from a Bastard Sword is *not* hand damage.

The Prisci Vote - only Prisci may vote in the Prisci Vote, and only with
the vote they get for the Prisci vote (i.e., the votes received for being
a Priscus plus any vote that says it is used in the Prisci Vote).
Political Action cards cannot be used to gain votes in the Prisci sub
vote; votes gained from action modifiers and reaction cards cannot be cast
during the Prisci Vote; etc. If a Priscus is forced to abstain or
to change his votes, then this includes his votes in the Prisci Vote as
well as his votes (if any) in the main vote. (*)

--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@regency.wizards.com)
Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
(*) - Subject to review by Rules Team

Dave Green

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Feb 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/25/97
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L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) wrote:

: Hand Strike - any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based


: on the striking minion's hand damage, or any minion's non-ranged
: damage-dealing innate strike.

Excuse me?!? Is this to say that Burning Wrath is now a hand
strike, and thus usable in an Immortal Grapple?

-Wallpaper Paste
for all those useless cards

L. Scott Johnson

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Feb 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/25/97
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Dave Green wrote:
>
> L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) wrote:
>
> : Hand Strike - any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based
> : on the striking minion's hand damage, or any minion's non-ranged
> : damage-dealing innate strike.
>
> Excuse me?!? Is this to say that Burning Wrath is now a hand
> strike, and thus usable in an Immortal Grapple?

Burning Wrath has never been classified as a *not* hand strike.
It has always been usable with Immortal Grapple.

It has the same template as Scorpion Sting, and Scorpion Sting is
also a hand strike.

Christian S Herro

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Feb 25, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/25/97
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vte...@wizards.com (L. Scott Johnson) writes:

>To clear up a few points that may have been clouded by earlier
>conflicting or ambiguous statements:

>Hand Strike - any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based


> on the striking minion's hand damage, or any minion's non-ranged
> damage-dealing innate strike.

Okay...here's my question of the week (which has probably been answered,
but I'll bet I missed it):
Are Bonecraft and Fleshcraft (Vicissitude strikes) counted as
hand damage? If yes, I assume that +x hand damage adds onto them.
Either way, if the damage is prevented, do their special effects take
place (-1 or -2 Stealth or Hand Damage)?

--Xian

L. Scott Johnson

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Feb 27, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/27/97
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Christian S Herro wrote:
>
> vte...@wizards.com (L. Scott Johnson) writes:
>
> >To clear up a few points that may have been clouded by earlier
> >conflicting or ambiguous statements:
>
> >Hand Strike - any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based
> > on the striking minion's hand damage, or any minion's non-ranged
> > damage-dealing innate strike.
>
> Okay...here's my question of the week (which has probably been answered,
> but I'll bet I missed it):
> Are Bonecraft and Fleshcraft (Vicissitude strikes) counted as
> hand damage? If yes, I assume that +x hand damage adds onto them.

Neither Bonecraft nor Flashcraft are hand strikes, since they do
not fit the definition (namely, they aren't based on the striking
minion's hand damage). Therefore, the damage done by these strikes
cannot be considered hand damage.

> Either way, if the damage is prevented, do their special effects take
> place (-1 or -2 Stealth or Hand Damage)?

The "special effects" do not depend on successfully dealing damage, no.

JlB1925

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Feb 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/28/97
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>Hand Strike - any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based
> on the striking minion's hand damage, or any minion's non-ranged
> damage-dealing innate strike.
So, the Succubus has 1 aggravated hand damage, the Cabal has 3R hand
damage, etc? If the Succubus pulls a Lucky Blow, is it 2 agg or 1 agg 1
normal?
---
Liam Burke
"Only a Malkavian would attack Cthulhu with laughing gas..."
-overheard

L. Scott Johnson

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Feb 28, 1997, 3:00:00 AM2/28/97
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JlB1925 (jlb...@aol.com) wrote:
: >Hand Strike - any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based

: > on the striking minion's hand damage, or any minion's non-ranged
: > damage-dealing innate strike.
: So, the Succubus has 1 aggravated hand damage, the Cabal has 3R hand
: damage, etc? If the Succubus pulls a Lucky Blow, is it 2 agg or 1 agg 1
: normal?

Succubus has a non-ranged, damage-dealing innate strike, so that
is considered a hand strike, yes. If she plays a lucky blow, the
strike will be a hand strike for 2 aggravated damage (damage added
to a damaging strike inherets all of the attributes of the strike).

Cabal's innate strike is 1R agg, not 3R. It is ranged, so doesn't
fit the definition of hand strike.

James Hamblin

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Mar 2, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/2/97
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[From LSJ's post]:

>Hand Strike - any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based
> on the striking minion's hand damage, or any minion's non-ranged
> damage-dealing innate strike.

> Ok, a question that has turned up in my playing group is whether or
> not a strike with a melee weapon is hand damage and can then be made
> aggrav. or not. (with Bone Spur, Wolf Claws, etc.)

Read the definition of hand strike. Non-weapon. Only hand damage is
changed by Claws, so damage dealt by any weapon is not modified.

James
--

James Hamblin
je...@cornell.edu
---------------------------------------------------
"Well, Mulder didn't say that it _was_ Alex Trebek,
just someone who looked extremely like him."
-- Dana Scully, X-Files:
"Jose Chung's _From Outer Space_"

Jeffrey Endres

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Mar 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/3/97
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L. Scott Johnson wrote:
>
> Christian S Herro wrote:
> >
> > vte...@wizards.com (L. Scott Johnson) writes:
> >
> > >To clear up a few points that may have been clouded by earlier
> > >conflicting or ambiguous statements:
> >
> > >Hand Strike - any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based
> > > on the striking minion's hand damage, or any minion's non-ranged
> > > damage-dealing innate strike.
> >
> > Okay...here's my question of the week (which has probably been answered,
> > but I'll bet I missed it):
> > Are Bonecraft and Fleshcraft (Vicissitude strikes) counted as
> > hand damage? If yes, I assume that +x hand damage adds onto them.
>
> Neither Bonecraft nor Flashcraft are hand strikes, since they do
> not fit the definition (namely, they aren't based on the striking
> minion's hand damage). Therefore, the damage done by these strikes
> cannot be considered hand damage.
>
> > Either way, if the damage is prevented, do their special effects take
> > place (-1 or -2 Stealth or Hand Damage)?
>
> The "special effects" do not depend on successfully dealing damage, no.
>
> --
> L. Scott Johnson (vte...@regency.wizards.com)
> Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
> (*) - Subject to review by Rules Team

Ok, a question that has turned up in my playing group is whether or not


a
strike with a melee weapon is hand damage and can then be made aggrav.
or
not. (with Bone Spur, Wolf Claws, etc.)

--
Jeffrey Endres Undergrad B. Eng (Aerospace Avionics)
Queensland University of Technology
"All human actions are equivalent ... and ...
all are on principle doomed to failure."
Jean-Paul Sartre (Being and Nothingness, Conclusion, sct. 2)

JlB1925

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Mar 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/3/97
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>Ok, a question that has turned up in my playing group is whether or not
a
>strike with a melee weapon is hand damage and can then be made aggrav.
or
>not. (with Bone Spur, Wolf Claws, etc.)
No strikes with a weapon are ever hand strikes, even if they depend on the
hand damage of the minion.

L. Scott Johnson

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Mar 3, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/3/97
to

Jeffrey Endres wrote:
> L. Scott Johnson wrote:
> > Christian S Herro wrote:
> > > vte...@wizards.com (L. Scott Johnson) writes:
> > > >To clear up a few points that may have been clouded by earlier
> > > >conflicting or ambiguous statements:
> > >
> > > >Hand Strike - any non-ranged, non-weapon strike that deals damage based
> > > > on the striking minion's hand damage, or any minion's non-ranged
> > > > damage-dealing innate strike.
>
> Ok, a question that has turned up in my playing group is whether or not
> a
> strike with a melee weapon is hand damage and can then be made aggrav.
> or
> not. (with Bone Spur, Wolf Claws, etc.)

No. The other part of my original post was the definition of hand
damage:

Hand Damage - damage from a hand strike.
e.g. Damage from a Bastard Sword is *not* hand damage.

Therefore melee weapon damage is not hand damage, and cannot be
modified by Claws.

Jeffrey Endres

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Mar 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/4/97
to

JlB1925 wrote:
>
> >Ok, a question that has turned up in my playing group is whether or not
> a
> >strike with a melee weapon is hand damage and can then be made aggrav.
> or
> >not. (with Bone Spur, Wolf Claws, etc.)
> No strikes with a weapon are ever hand strikes, even if they depend on the
> hand damage of the minion.
> Liam Burke
> "Only a Malkavian would attack Cthulhu with laughing gas..."
> -overheard

I am not asking if they are hand strikes, but rather if the damage done
is hand damage or not...

David Pontes

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Mar 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/4/97
to

On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, L. Scott Johnson wrote:

> Jeffrey Endres wrote:
> >
> > Ok, a question that has turned up in my playing group is whether or not
> > a
> > strike with a melee weapon is hand damage and can then be made aggrav.
> > or
> > not. (with Bone Spur, Wolf Claws, etc.)
>

> No. The other part of my original post was the definition of hand
> damage:
>
> Hand Damage - damage from a hand strike.
> e.g. Damage from a Bastard Sword is *not* hand damage.
>
> Therefore melee weapon damage is not hand damage, and cannot be
> modified by Claws.
>

And Torn Signpost is what? Can you play claws on it? And does it
modify a bastard sword?

David Pontes


8[


Robert Goudie

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Mar 4, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/4/97
to

I read the artist's enterpretation of torn signpost and all it does is
show that some sort of vicious creature was or is in the area as can be
seen by the powerful slashes that were made to the sign. It's a subtle
card. It shouldn't be thought of as a vamp picking up a signpost and
smacking someone with it.

Robert
--
......................................................................
:The opinions expressed here are strictly my own delusional ramblings:
:and do not reflect the opinions of The Walt Disney Company. :
: :
:Robert Goudie robert...@studio.disney.com:
:LA Tourny Info -> http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~ezix/other/rg/vtourn_1.html:
:....................................................................:
:Da pony run, he jump he pitch. He t'row my master in da ditch. :
:He died and da jury wondered why. Da verdict was the blue tail fly.:
:....................................................................:

PDB6

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Mar 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/5/97
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David Pontes wrote:
"And Torn Signpost is what? Can you play claws on it? And does it modify a
bastard sword?"

Torn Signpost simply sets a vampires base hand damage to a new level. At
superior, for instance, it gives a vampire a base of 3 hand damage, which
can then be modified with cards like Undead Strength, Fists of Death, or
Claws of the Dead. If a vampire plays Torn Signpost and then strikes with
a weapon that is based on Hand Damage (such as a Bastard Sword), the
weapon will do damage based on the vampires hand damage (which has been
increased by Torn Signpost), but it will then be a Weapon Strike and not a
Hand Strike (as the strike uses a weapon) For Example:

Marty Lechtansi can play Torn Signpost, Fists of Death, and then use
Undead Strength to make a "Hand Strike" that will do 7 "Hand Damage".

KoKo can play Torn Signpost and strike with a Bastard Sword for a "Weapon
Strike" that will do 3 "Weapon Damage" (that is neither a hand strike nor
hand damage, but because of the Torn Signpost, KoKo will do 3 damage
instead of 2).

Ebaneezer Roush can play Torn Signpost and use Undead Strength to make a
"Hand Strike" for 5 "Hand Damage". He can then play Claws of the Dead to
make all of his hand damage into Aggrivated "Hand Damage".

All of theses are legal and perfectly sensible. many people are confused
because Torn Signpost is called "Torn Signpost" and has a picture of a
signpost on it. It is not a melee weapon, nor does it constitute a strike
in and of itself. it simply sets a vampires base hand damage (which is
usually 1) to a new level (2 or 3). That is all.

Peter D Bakija
PD...@aol.com

"AHA! I'll bounce off that broad flat surface
and be is alot of pain!"
-The Tick

David Pontes

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Mar 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/5/97
to

On Tue, 4 Mar 1997, Robert Goudie wrote:

> David Pontes wrote:
> >
> > And Torn Signpost is what? Can you play claws on it? And does it
> > modify a bastard sword?
> >
>

> I read the artist's enterpretation of torn signpost and all it does is
> show that some sort of vicious creature was or is in the area as can be
> seen by the powerful slashes that were made to the sign. It's a subtle
> card. It shouldn't be thought of as a vamp picking up a signpost and
> smacking someone with it.
>

Please congratulate the artist next time you speak to him, for
the TSP picture is one of my favorites in the starter set. However, and
given the explicit nature of most other cards on the set one is easily
led to believe that is indeed a "torn signpost", not just a bad dude
wrecking the place. Anyway, it could be a Drew Tucker blotch and I would
still have the same idea about the card :)

David Pontes


8[


David Pontes

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Mar 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/5/97
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On 5 Mar 1997, PDB6 wrote:

> David Pontes wrote:
> "And Torn Signpost is what? Can you play claws on it? And does it modify a
> bastard sword?"
>

> Torn Signpost simply sets a vampires base hand damage to a new level.

[snip]

> All of theses are legal and perfectly sensible. many people are confused
> because Torn Signpost is called "Torn Signpost" and has a picture of a
> signpost on it.

Not only confused, but believe they are right because of those
obvious facts.

> It is not a melee weapon, nor does it constitute a strike
> in and of itself. it simply sets a vampires base hand damage (which is
> usually 1) to a new level (2 or 3). That is all.
>

Scott, *please* end this argument. I'm actually a little tired of
discussing this with Mr. Bajika and not going anywhere: I say it's a card
that originated from Jyhad but still has that "base 2/3 hand damage"
removed from VtES whan printing cards like Bastard Sword. That together
with the fact that it is called "torn signpost" and it's picture shows a
notched signpost leads me to believe that it should be a melee weapon in
line with "zip gun", discarded after combat.
Peter Bajika bases himself on card text and insists it has no
connection with an actual signpost being torn. I can handle that, plus
the fact that the artist used a gret amount of subtlety when drawing a
notched signpost when trying to transmit the idea of a strong man in the
vicinity (and not that the signpost was used in the fight).
I also understand that making the card the way I say it is involves
too much errata. Not as much as Hidden Lurker, but a considerable deal.
Also, I wonder if it's worth it, being so uncommon and simple to use the
way it is.

So, if you think it would be an interesting thing to discuss with
the Rules Team, take that matter to them. If not, say something official
to stop the argument... please...

David Pontes

8[


L. Scott Johnson

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Mar 5, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/5/97
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David Pontes wrote:
> On 5 Mar 1997, PDB6 wrote:
> > David Pontes wrote:
> > "And Torn Signpost is what? Can you play claws on it? And does it modify a
> > bastard sword?"

> > Torn Signpost simply sets a vampires base hand damage to a new level.

> > All of theses are legal and perfectly sensible. many people are confused


> > because Torn Signpost is called "Torn Signpost" and has a picture of a
> > signpost on it.

> Not only confused, but believe they are right because of those
> obvious facts.

> > It is not a melee weapon, nor does it constitute a strike
> > in and of itself. it simply sets a vampires base hand damage (which is
> > usually 1) to a new level (2 or 3). That is all.

> Scott, *please* end this argument. I'm actually a little tired of
> discussing this with Mr. Bajika and not going anywhere: I say it's a card
> that originated from Jyhad but still has that "base 2/3 hand damage"
> removed from VtES whan printing cards like Bastard Sword. That together
> with the fact that it is called "torn signpost" and it's picture shows a
> notched signpost leads me to believe that it should be a melee weapon in
> line with "zip gun", discarded after combat.

> So, if you think it would be an interesting thing to discuss with
> the Rules Team, take that matter to them. If not, say something official
> to stop the argument... please...

Well, I followed up to your original question
<Pine.OSF.3.91.970304133652.5813H-100000>
as soon as it hit my server, which was yesterday, and gave the official
answer then: "It resets base hand damage, which can then be modified
by a strike, melee weapon, or claws." Presumably, that response has not
hit your server yet.

As far as the concept, artists interpretation, etc. It really is a
torn signpost and that's all. It isn't "strong creature lurking",
it's a torn signpost. But, for game mechanics, using a torn signpost
is represented by adjusting a vampire's base hand damage. This may
lead to non-sensical results (like using a signpost while grappled,
or growing claws on the signpost), but these are acceptable consequences
of the game mechanics. (Just as it's possible to remain grappled while
at long range in the second round - you'll still be limited to hand
strikes only).

House rules can be used to overcome these consequences, but they are
not currently viewed as being worth official errata.

JlB1925

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Mar 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/6/97
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>And Torn Signpost is what? Can you play claws on it? And does it
>modify a bastard sword?
No, Torn Signpost increases your base hand damage. Just imagine yourself
taking that sword and strapping it onto the end of the signpost, or
setting it on fire for Burning Wrath.
---

PDB6

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Mar 6, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/6/97
to

Liam Burke wrote:
"No, Torn Signpost increases your base hand damage. Just imagine yourself
taking that sword and strapping it onto the end of the signpost, or
setting it on fire for Burning Wrath."

As Torn Signpost increases your base hand damage, and Melee weapons such
as Bastard Sword are based on your hand damage, then playing a Torn
Signpost and then striking with a Bastard Sword will do more damage than
without the Torn Signpost, as it increases your base hand damage (although
the Strike with the Sword would be a weapon Strike and not a Hand
strike...). With POT, a vamp playing Torn Signpost has a base hand damage
of 3. If he then strikes with a Bastard Sword, he will do 4
non-hand-damage (3 base hand damage, +1 for the sword).

The fact that it is called Torn Signpost and has a picture of a Signpost
on the card has very little to do with what the card actually does, much
like the picture on "Distraction" (a guy throwing a can through a window)
has little to do with drawing a bunch of cards. Torn Signpost is a card
that, in game terms, gives you 3 hand damage. There is nothing on the
card that indicates that it does anything other than that.

LSJ has recently and offically settled this issue with the following post:

"Well, I followed up to your original question as soon as it hit my


server, which was yesterday, and gave the official answer then: "It resets
base hand damage, which can then be modified by a strike, melee weapon, or
claws." Presumably, that response has not hit your server yet."

Peter D Bakija

JlB1925

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Mar 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/8/97
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>I am not asking if they are hand strikes, but rather if the damage done
>is hand damage or not...
Not a hand strike = not affected by cards that affect hand damage...

James Hamblin

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Mar 8, 1997, 3:00:00 AM3/8/97
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JlB1925 wrote:
>
> >I am not asking if they are hand strikes, but rather if the damage done
> >is hand damage or not...
> Not a hand strike = not affected by cards that affect hand damage...

Be careful... that's not actually true. If you tear off a signpost
(with POT) and strike with a Bastard Sword, you do 4 damage. But the
damage is not hand damage; it's melee weapon damage.

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