Final Nights previews on the White Wolf site
Jon Stahler
the site:
Khalil Ravana
Ravnos
Cap: 5
CHI, pre, ani, for
Special: Khalil gets +1 stealth when performing a diablerie action.
Ecstasy
Serpentis Reaction
Inf: Reduce a bleed against you by 1
Sup: As above, and if the bleed resolves for 0 (or less), the acting minion
burns 1 blood or life at the end of the action.
Thoughts?
Nice artwork, btw...
Daniel Figueiredo Silva
saying that the FoS were one of the few clans that could never bounce or
reduce bleeds, and that the one big problem for a Setite deck was bleed
defense.... and waht do you know!! The new card not only reduces a bleed,
but
also is an indirect form of making Temptation work faster!!! Someone there
must have superior auspex!! :) Khalil is also very good for a 5 capaciry
vampire, he has the same discipline count as Hesha, but not such a good
special power. This expansion is looking better by the second!
>===== Original Message From "Jon Stahler" <sta...@staff.uiuc.edu> =====
------------------------------------------------------------
Get your FREE web-based e-mail and newsgroup access at:
http://MailAndNews.com
Create a new mailbox, or access your existing IMAP4 or
POP3 mailbox from anywhere with just a web browser.
------------------------------------------------------------
Roger Carhult
--
"Daniel Figueiredo Silva" <om...@MailAndNews.com> wrote in message
news:3B0E...@MailAndNews.com...
> Man was I happy to see those previews!!! :) Just a couple days back I
posted
> saying that the FoS were one of the few clans that could never bounce or
> reduce bleeds, and that the one big problem for a Setite deck was bleed
> defense.... and waht do you know!! The new card not only reduces a bleed,
> but
> also is an indirect form of making Temptation work faster!!! Someone there
> must have superior auspex!! :) Khalil is also very good for a 5 capaciry
> vampire, he has the same discipline count as Hesha, but not such a good
> special power. This expansion is looking better by the second!
>
>
And the same as Bear Paw but with an added special..so slightly better than
Camarilla but a little bit worse than the Sabbat (Devin Bisley) perhaps. We
don't have that much info yet to draw any real conclusions though.
Reyda
"Jon Stahler" <sta...@staff.uiuc.edu> a écrit dans le message news:
4lcM6.6146$ki5....@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu...
> Hey all...was looking up some rulings and noticed they have two previews
on
> the site:
>
> Khalil Ravana
> Ravnos
> Cap: 5
> CHI, pre, ani, for
> Special: Khalil gets +1 stealth when performing a diablerie action.
The best friend of Kiss of Ra !!
> Ecstasy
> Serpentis Reaction
> Inf: Reduce a bleed against you by 1
> Sup: As above, and if the bleed resolves for 0 (or less), the acting
minion
> burns 1 blood or life at the end of the action.
Can be used with Greta for Greater effect =)
> Thoughts?
> Nice artwork, btw...
>
>
>
Henke
>the site:
>
>Khalil Ravana
>Ravnos
>Cap: 5
>CHI, pre, ani, for
>Special: Khalil gets +1 stealth when performing a diablerie action.
>
Ahhh!!! Khalil and Francois Villon, together spreading chaos and mayhem all
over the world! What an incredible team!!! Hmm... Am I getting carried away
here? Nah... There's no END to the possibilities!
>Ecstasy
>Serpentis Reaction
>Inf: Reduce a bleed against you by 1
>Sup: As above, and if the bleed resolves for 0 (or less), the acting
minion
>burns 1 blood or life at the end of the action.
Ahhh... Julius shall enter my deck right away... He will pay back his puny
existence to his unmerciful master, me, tenfold, maybe hundredfold!!!
Bwahaha!!!
>
>Thoughts?
>Nice artwork, btw...
>
>
>
Wes
"Reyda" <re...@noos.fr> wrote
>
> > Ecstasy
> > Serpentis Reaction
> > Inf: Reduce a bleed against you by 1
> > Sup: As above, and if the bleed resolves for 0 (or less), the acting
> minion
> > burns 1 blood or life at the end of the action.
>
> Can be used with Greta for Greater effect =)
Ouch! That is nice...
Greta becomes an 8 cap (or 9 with SER), with an ability to reduce bleeds of
2 or less by any vampire of capacity less than 8 or 9...
At superior, she can pretty much empty bleeders of their blood at the rate
she herself is being emptied or better. Her superior Auspex could also
possibly be used to protect some of those Setite cards with (D) Burns or to
protect the Rack which you will need to have on her. Hmmm... a bit of a
prayer combo maybe but sweet nonetheless...
WES
James Coupe
<d98...@stud.hh.se> writes
>>Khalil Ravana
>>Ravnos
>>Cap: 5
>>CHI, pre, ani, for
>>Special: Khalil gets +1 stealth when performing a diablerie action.
>>
>
>Ahhh!!! Khalil and Francois Villon, together spreading chaos and mayhem all
>over the world! What an incredible team!!! Hmm... Am I getting carried away
>here? Nah... There's no END to the possibilities!
And cheap CHI, with some new cards, is a good thing.
Very nice looking vampire, and certainly exactly the sort of thing I
think we'd all been hoping for.
--
James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D
EBD690ECD7A1F
What's the meaning when you speak with so much feeling? B457CA213D7E6
Is it over when you're sober? Is it junk? 68C3695D623D5D
Halcyan 2
>saying that the FoS were one of the few clans that could never bounce or
>reduce bleeds, and that the one big problem for a Setite deck was bleed
>defense.... and waht do you know!! The new card not only reduces a bleed,
>but
>also is an indirect form of making Temptation work faster!!! Someone there
>must have superior auspex!! :) Khalil is also very good for a 5 capaciry
>vampire, he has the same discipline count as Hesha, but not such a good
>special power. This expansion is looking better by the second!
Ecstasy looks like quite a nasty card. Yeah, someone did mention how the
Setites need some anti-bleed and Ecstasy surely does the job. Think about what
happens when you have multiple vampires with SER, each ready to reduce the
bleed and cause the bleeder to burn lots of blood.
Just to make sure, you *can* reduce the bleed further even if it is already at
0, right? (The card seems to indicate this with the "or less" clause). So if
some vampire bleeds you for 1 you can have all 3 of your untapped vampires each
play an Ecstasy?
As for Khalil, he seems rather good. Like the other signature characters, he
seems a bit undercosted (surprise, surprise) even if he isn't necessarily that
good. 6 points using the Jyhad system or 6.5 with the Sabbat for a 5-cap
vampire. His special is rather corner-case, but in my playgroup, the torpor
region is a rather popular vacation spot.
I hate to be the whiner (again) but I'm a little concerned that a lot of the
newer vampires are rather overpowered. Even more overpowered than the Sabbat
vampires. We all know how Sabbat, with its different point system led to many
vampires who were clearly better than their Jyhad/VTES counterparts. Similarly,
a lot of these newer vampires (in SW and FN) seem to be overshadowing those
Sabbat vamps. Just my thoughts...
Halcyan 2
LSJ
> Just to make sure, you *can* reduce the bleed further even if it is already at
> 0, right? (The card seems to indicate this with the "or less" clause). So if
> some vampire bleeds you for 1 you can have all 3 of your untapped vampires each
> play an Ecstasy?
Yes. Just as Telepathic Counters can be used to reduce a bleed into deep
negative territory.
> As for Khalil, he seems rather good. Like the other signature characters, he
> seems a bit undercosted (surprise, surprise) even if he isn't necessarily that
> good. 6 points using the Jyhad system or 6.5 with the Sabbat for a 5-cap
> vampire. His special is rather corner-case, but in my playgroup, the torpor
> region is a rather popular vacation spot.
I count 5 points, maybe 5.5 if you really like his special. Where do you get 6.5?
3.0: 3 disciplines at normal
2.0: 1 discipline at superior.
0.5: special
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
James Hamblin
Halcyan 2 wrote:
>
> As for Khalil, he seems rather good. Like the other signature characters, he
> seems a bit undercosted (surprise, surprise) even if he isn't necessarily that
> good. 6 points using the Jyhad system or 6.5 with the Sabbat for a 5-cap
> vampire. His special is rather corner-case, but in my playgroup, the torpor
> region is a rather popular vacation spot.
What!? How good do you think that special ability is? The Ravnos have
zero ways to keep Khalil from getting burned by the blood hunt. While
that might be OK if you're eating, say, an Inner Circle member, it's
still not that great. Certainly nowhere near as insane as Muaziz's
special.
> I hate to be the whiner (again) but I'm a little concerned that a lot of the
> newer vampires are rather overpowered. Even more overpowered than the Sabbat
> vampires. We all know how Sabbat, with its different point system led to many
> vampires who were clearly better than their Jyhad/VTES counterparts. Similarly,
> a lot of these newer vampires (in SW and FN) seem to be overshadowing those
> Sabbat vamps. Just my thoughts...
I think the only ones that really come out looking too powerful are the
big guys. The 6's with all three superiors are really good, but in no
way overpowered. There are quite a few 8's which have more than 8
points, but I'm (begrudgingly) OK with that. Like the Little Tailor has
7 points of abilities, +1 bleed, _and_ a special that's worth probably
0.5 points. Fatima is equally underpriced, depending on how great you
think her special is. As long as the "brokenness" remains with the big
vampires, I don't have a problem.
James
--
James Hamblin
ham...@math.wisc.edu
"You seem to think you know it all
Let me tell you something, you can't win."
-- Pat McGee Band
LSJ
> I think the only ones that really come out looking too powerful are the
> big guys. The 6's with all three superiors are really good, but in no
> way overpowered. There are quite a few 8's which have more than 8
> points, but I'm (begrudgingly) OK with that. Like the Little Tailor has
The current formula gives 8caps 9 points of stuff.
1-4 caps get cap-1 points,
5-6 caps get cap points,
7-8 caps get cap+1 points,
9-10 caps get cap+2 points.
This is more 1 point more than the Jyhad system gave at the 7+ level.
Andrew S. Davidson
>Khalil Ravana
>Nice artwork, btw...
It's probably just a coincidence but he looks rather like LSJ.
Andrew
Minotaure
I'm a happy Setite player. :D
Fah
>
Halcyan 2
>6.5?
>
>3.0: 3 disciplines at normal
>2.0: 1 discipline at superior.
>0.5: special
(Note that in my calculations I counted his special as a full point).
Jyhad System:
5 points of disciplines (one superior, three inferior)
1 point of special
= 6 points
Sabbat System:
3 points to get all of the initial clan disciplines
1 point for one of the clan disciplines to be at superior (though apparently he
didn't get his second one for free at all)
1/2 point for normal out-of-clan discipline
1 point for special
1 point for being non-Pander
= 6.5 points
Of course this is based on those articles by Peter Bajika and Carl Pilhatsch,
which might not necessarily be official (though it does seem accurate).
http://www.crosswinds.net/~yhtapa/
Halcyan 2
Halcyan 2
>he
>> seems a bit undercosted (surprise, surprise) even if he isn't necessarily
>that
>> good. 6 points using the Jyhad system or 6.5 with the Sabbat for a 5-cap
>> vampire. His special is rather corner-case, but in my playgroup, the torpor
>> region is a rather popular vacation spot.
>
>What!? How good do you think that special ability is? The Ravnos have
>zero ways to keep Khalil from getting burned by the blood hunt. While
>that might be OK if you're eating, say, an Inner Circle member, it's
>still not that great. Certainly nowhere near as insane as Muaziz's
>special.
Well of course Khalil's special isn't close compared to Muaziz's. In fact, very
few vampire's specials are.
Yes, Khalil's special is rather corner case or maybe you can just say outright
that it sucks, but then again, how many vampires have sucky abilities? Jazz
Wentworth, Melissa Barton, Heather Florent, Tereza Rostas, and Patrizia
Giovanni all have fairly crappy specials, IMHO. Compared to the likes of
Muaziz, Anson, Arika, Dragos, and Ian Forestal, some vampires out there
definitely got the short-end of the stick.
Thus I prefer to think of most specials (even crappy ones like Patrizia's and
Khalil's) to be worth one point and have the cool ones worth a little more.
IMHO, trying to further divide it up and figure out which specials are 1/2
point, 1 point, or more seems a bit subjective at best. =)
Halcyan 2
James Coupe
<F820B3455EB1A60D.E9FF2BD7...@lp.airnews.net>,
Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes
>It's probably just a coincidence but he looks rather like LSJ.
Not necessarily. This sort of thing is done quite often.
For instance, Salinger (the one with the tattoos) is based (according to
Tim Avers) on someone at White Wolf.
James Coupe
<halc...@aol.com> writes
>(Note that in my calculations I counted his special as a full point).
Why? Is it really *that* good?
How often do you see people taking diablerie actions? Once, twice a
game tops, in my experience.
Pat Ricochet
I suppose I'll have to devote a newsletter to this sometime, but:
Patrizia's special does NOT suck. It lets her go and get a retainer from
your ash heap *no* *matter* how it got there. It doesn't have to have been
"burned since your last turn," as Compel the Spirit requires. Sure, you pay
for them, but if you try to equip with a retainer and get blocked, it's
GONE. Unless you get it back using, say, Whispers from the Dead, costing
not only a blood, but an action(!), or you use Patrizia.
What DOES suck are Patrizia's disciplines. She isn't a overcosted
vampire because the special is overrated, but because 2 of her abilities are
out of clan. If she had [pot nec dom] and that special, she'd be a good
addition to Vittorio and Francesca as another Giovanni poster child, and
would help if you actually wanted to build a Pot/Dom/Nec deck, something
that's a poor idea with the current crypt choices.
However, the Final Nights are approaching, and THAT should be remedied
then. =)
--
Pat Ricochet
Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta
"You can't make a fact out of an opinion by raising your voice."
LSJ
>
> >I count 5 points, maybe 5.5 if you really like his special. Where do you get
> >6.5?
That'll do it. Counting the special as 2 points makes him even more over
the top of the scale. But realistically, the special isn't even worth 0.5
points.
LSJ
>
> In message
> <F820B3455EB1A60D.E9FF2BD7...@lp.airnews.net>,
> Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes
> >It's probably just a coincidence but he looks rather like LSJ.
>
> Not necessarily. This sort of thing is done quite often.
Whatever similarity (which I don't see at all) is coincidental - the
artist has never seen me TTBOMK.
theventrue
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3B034551...@white-wolf.com...
> Halcyan 2 wrote:
> >
> > >I count 5 points, maybe 5.5 if you really like his special. Where do
you get
> > >6.5?
> > (Note that in my calculations I counted his special as a full point).
>
> That'll do it. Counting the special as 2 points makes him even more over
> the top of the scale. But realistically, the special isn't even worth 0.5
> points.
>
of Kiss of Ra's and well...yeah you're right, it's not that good.
James Hamblin
Halcyan 2 wrote:
>
> Thus I prefer to think of most specials (even crappy ones like Patrizia's and
> Khalil's) to be worth one point and have the cool ones worth a little more.
> IMHO, trying to further divide it up and figure out which specials are 1/2
> point, 1 point, or more seems a bit subjective at best. =)
Well, if you're using this "system", then practially any vampire with
text on it is undercosted. Especially when you make them pay one point
for _not_ being a Pander. For the rest of us, LSJ's explanation that 7+
vampires now get a point more than they used to will do just fine.
Halcyan 2
>the top of the scale. But realistically, the special isn't even worth 0.5
>points.
Well, if the special isn't worth 0.5 points, what is it worth? 0? Since it's
worth so little, why does Khalil even have such a worthless special? Or why
doesn't *every* vampire have the +1 diablerie stealth since it really isn't
worth anything. In fact, the mere existence of these "worthless" (not worth any
points) specials like Khalil's and Vykos' makes me wonder why they were even
given specials in the first place. They'd still be pretty good with an empty
text box. But then again, maybe that's it. The urge to fill in the empty space
is just too irresistible? =)
Moving to the subjective side, I'm a bit curious as to exactly how some of you
guys classify various specials. James mentions how often it is used, which is
an important factor (though not the only one). And of course there is the
matter of how powerful the effect is (some abilities might be pretty good even
if you only manage to use it once or twice a game). And while you're at it, I
know it may be hard to define, but exactly what makes a special "worthless?"
Thanks!
Halcyan 2
Ian Lee
>you
>guys classify various specials. James mentions how often it is used, which is
>an important factor (though not the only one). And of course there is the
>matter of how powerful the effect is (some abilities might be pretty good
>even
>if you only manage to use it once or twice a game). And while you're at it, I
>know it may be hard to define, but exactly what makes a special "worthless?"
Roughly,
I value an ability based on clans to be worthless either as an advantage or a
disadvantage.
+1 stealth on all actions as a 2 pt. ability.
+ bleed or + strength as + pts.
Primogen and Bishop at 0, Archbishop and 2 votes at 1, Prince or Cardinal at 2,
Justicar or 4 votes at 3.
Aggravated hand damage is +2, even if a pay (one) blood to do is involved.
Most combat abilities like optional dodge, maneuver, or press at +1.
Built in rush, low cap, +1. Built in rush, any, +2.
May have missed something common, but for the rest, it comes down to how likely
the ability is to affect a game or deck construction. A 2 cap with Presence,
who can't call votes, has a serious disadvantage. A 3 cap with Protean and
Thaumaturgy, who can't call votes, doesn't. Anson's ability is at least a 2
pointer. Also, to some degree, if the ability is trying to balance the point
total of the vampire, I try to give it that credit, even if it is rather
trivial. +1 stealth on diablerie is pretty trivial, but I can see giving it a
point as I think Khalil isn't all that good lacking a second superior
discipline.
Carl Pilhatsch
>
>Sabbat System:
>
>3 points to get all of the initial clan disciplines
>1 point for one of the clan disciplines to be at superior (though apparently
he
>didn't get his second one for free at all)
>1/2 point for normal out-of-clan discipline
>1 point for special
>1 point for being non-Pander
> = 6.5 points
>
>Of course this is based on those articles by Peter Bajika and Carl Pilhatsch,
>which might not necessarily be official (though it does seem accurate).
>
Finally I'm back. :)
Ok, on to the topic:
WotC used the cited template for The Sabbat. It's worth noting, that each
vamp
got a number of points equal to his/her capacity, and big ones (cap 9-10)
slightly more. Here is the system again:
Being a non-Pander: 1 pt
each in-clan discipline at inferior: 1 pt
each in-clan discipline at superior: 1 pt, but every second is *free*
each out-clan discipline at inferior: 0.5 pt
each out-clan discipline at superior: 1 pt
Being a Bishop: 1 pt
Being an Archbishop: 2 pt
Being a Cardinal: 3 pt
Being a Priscus: 1-2 pt
+1 bleed: 1 pt
+1 strength: 1 pt
other specials: 0.5-2 pt (depending on usefulness)
negative abilites: -0.5 to -1 pt (also depending)
A number of Sabbat vamps deviate from this formula, but in general it's the
one
used.
Carl
LSJ
>
> >That'll do it. Counting the special as 2 points makes him even more over
> >the top of the scale. But realistically, the special isn't even worth 0.5
> >points.
>
> Well, if the special isn't worth 0.5 points, what is it worth? 0? Since it's
> worth so little, why does Khalil even have such a worthless special? Or why
> doesn't *every* vampire have the +1 diablerie stealth since it really isn't
> worth anything. In fact, the mere existence of these "worthless" (not worth any
> points) specials like Khalil's and Vykos' makes me wonder why they were even
> given specials in the first place. They'd still be pretty good with an empty
> text box. But then again, maybe that's it. The urge to fill in the empty space
> is just too irresistible? =)
Flavor.
> Moving to the subjective side, I'm a bit curious as to exactly how some of you
> guys classify various specials. James mentions how often it is used, which is
> an important factor (though not the only one). And of course there is the
> matter of how powerful the effect is (some abilities might be pretty good even
> if you only manage to use it once or twice a game). And while you're at it, I
> know it may be hard to define, but exactly what makes a special "worthless?"
> Thanks!
Utility.
James Hamblin
Halcyan 2 wrote:
>
> >That'll do it. Counting the special as 2 points makes him even more over
> >the top of the scale. But realistically, the special isn't even worth 0.5
> >points.
>
> Well, if the special isn't worth 0.5 points, what is it worth? 0? Since it's
> worth so little, why does Khalil even have such a worthless special? Or why
> doesn't *every* vampire have the +1 diablerie stealth since it really isn't
> worth anything. In fact, the mere existence of these "worthless" (not worth any
> points) specials like Khalil's and Vykos' makes me wonder why they were even
> given specials in the first place. They'd still be pretty good with an empty
> text box. But then again, maybe that's it. The urge to fill in the empty space
> is just too irresistible? =)
You're right; they would still be good, even with an empty text box.
Specials like "+1 bleed when your prey has a ready Brujah" are in no way
as useful as, say, the inferior level of some discipline.
> Moving to the subjective side, I'm a bit curious as to exactly how some of you
> guys classify various specials. James mentions how often it is used, which is
> an important factor (though not the only one). And of course there is the
> matter of how powerful the effect is (some abilities might be pretty good even
> if you only manage to use it once or twice a game). And while you're at it, I
> know it may be hard to define, but exactly what makes a special "worthless?"
> Thanks!
I am known to use absolute words like "worthless", "broken", etc. when I
don't really mean to make such a blanket statement. I think Khalil's
special could end up being relevant in some game sometime. But, as the
Ravnos have nearly zero voting power, there's no way Khalil will survive
the subsuquent bloodhunt. Plus, the Ravnos have stealth anyway (Fata
Morgana, Fortune Teller Shop, Rom Gypsy), so Sasha Miklos seems like a
better candidate for some random diablerie than some 5. So, I would say
his special is "not very good" since it has (a) a minor effect which
could have been produced from an external source, and (b) the result of
using his special will generally cause him to be burned.
Generally, I think the clan-specific advantages/disadvantages fall under
the category of "useless" (or at the very least, not worth points).
Blythe Candeleria's -1 strength vs. Malkavians, for example. I've heard
people tell me that they've seen it come up once or twice, but it
doesn't keep Blythe from being an undercosted vampire. Three's
shouldn't have three points of abilities without a severe disadvantage.
Similarly, Sascha Vykos' special is kind of neat (in that it is unique),
but it's not very important or vital to a deck which is using him. In
fact, it seems like Meshenka (all 3 sup's, combat cheaper) and Little
Tailor (all 3 sup's, cheapo retainers/allies, and +1 bleed) are just
better, unless you're using Sascha's Thaumaturgy. :)
James Hamblin
Ian Lee wrote:
>
> Roughly,
>
> I value an ability based on clans to be worthless either as an advantage or a
> disadvantage.
>
> +1 stealth on all actions as a 2 pt. ability.
>
> + bleed or + strength as + pts.
>
> Primogen and Bishop at 0, Archbishop and 2 votes at 1, Prince or Cardinal at 2,
> Justicar or 4 votes at 3.
>
> Aggravated hand damage is +2, even if a pay (one) blood to do is involved.
>
> Most combat abilities like optional dodge, maneuver, or press at +1.
>
> Built in rush, low cap, +1. Built in rush, any, +2.
>
> May have missed something common, but for the rest, it comes down to how likely
> the ability is to affect a game or deck construction. A 2 cap with Presence,
> who can't call votes, has a serious disadvantage. A 3 cap with Protean and
> Thaumaturgy, who can't call votes, doesn't. Anson's ability is at least a 2
> pointer. Also, to some degree, if the ability is trying to balance the point
> total of the vampire, I try to give it that credit, even if it is rather
> trivial. +1 stealth on diablerie is pretty trivial, but I can see giving it a
> point as I think Khalil isn't all that good lacking a second superior
> discipline.
We should be careful to draw a distinction between a "value" point
system (where the points measure how "good" the vampire is) and a
"design" point system (where a certain number of points are assigned to
"build" each vampire). I don't think the former is very useful, since
different vampires will have different utility in different decks. In
many decks, Bear Paw's presence is completely irrelevant; in my Gangrel
deck, I see it as "coulda been superior Protean". But in other decks,
I'm sure it's very important. So I don't think saying "Bear Paw is
worth 38.17 points under _my_ system" is very meaningful. On the other
hand, from a design standpoint, there needs to be some kind of standard
according to which vampires are designed. You obviously can't
haphazardly make vampires with random amounts of "stuff". You need to
design in a fair and balanced manner, so that each clan and each vampire
has a comparable amount of utility, based on their cost. Your point
system quite clearly falls into the former category, and that's not
really what we're talking about here.
James Hamblin
Carl Pilhatsch wrote:
>
> Ok, on to the topic:
> WotC used the cited template for The Sabbat. It's worth noting, that each
> vamp
> got a number of points equal to his/her capacity, and big ones (cap 9-10)
> slightly more. Here is the system again:
>
> Being a non-Pander: 1 pt
> each in-clan discipline at inferior: 1 pt
> each in-clan discipline at superior: 1 pt, but every second is *free*
> each out-clan discipline at inferior: 0.5 pt
> each out-clan discipline at superior: 1 pt
> Being a Bishop: 1 pt
> Being an Archbishop: 2 pt
> Being a Cardinal: 3 pt
> Being a Priscus: 1-2 pt
> +1 bleed: 1 pt
> +1 strength: 1 pt
> other specials: 0.5-2 pt (depending on usefulness)
> negative abilites: -0.5 to -1 pt (also depending)
How do you know this is the formula? It doesn't fit a _lot_ of
vampires:
* 4's with one inferior and one superior (one even has a _dis_advantage)
* 5's with one superior and two inferiors (two even have an out-of-clan
inferior)
* 5's with two superiors and one inferior (_underpowered_ by a point
under this "system")
* 6's with three superiors (underpowered by THREE points!?)
There are many others, but these seem to be the most glaring examples.
You may argue that the 6's with three superiors are not made under this
system, so here are more examples of 6's:
Marlene the Infernalist: underpowered by 2
Ian Wallingford: underpowered by 2
Sela: underpowered by 0.5
Luther: underpowered by 1 (making his special worth 0.5 pts.)
Jost Werner: underpowered by 1.5 (even making his +1 stealth count for 2
pts.)
Pieter: underpowered by 2
Sheila Mezarin: underpowered by 1.5
Corine Marcon: underpowered by 2
Vanessa: underpowered by 2.5
Rev. Blackwood: underpowered by 1.5 (making his special worth 1 pt.)
Caitlin: underpowered by 2
Quira the Bitch Queen: underpowered by 2
Dylan: Properly costed
Artemis: underpowered by 2
Lisette Vizquel: underpowered by 2 (making her special 0.5 pt.)
Aurora van Brande: underpowered by 0.5 (making her special 1 pt.)
Violet Tremain: underpowered by 0.5 (making her special 1 pt.)
Obviously the special abilities is where some subjectivity comes into
play. But how can you justify this system as being the system used for
the Sabbat set when ONE of the 6-capacity vampires is properly costed?
Just a single one! The best vampire, according to this system, is
Dylan, widely considered one of the worst 6 cap's.
My only possible conclusion is that this cannot possibly be the system
used to design vampires in the Sabbat set.
Ian Lee
>system (where the points measure how "good" the vampire is) and a
>"design" point system (where a certain number of points are assigned to
>"build" each vampire). I don't think the former is very useful, since
>different vampires will have different utility in different decks. In
>many decks, Bear Paw's presence is completely irrelevant; in my Gangrel
>deck, I see it as "coulda been superior Protean". But in other decks,
>I'm sure it's very important. So I don't think saying "Bear Paw is
>worth 38.17 points under _my_ system" is very meaningful. On the other
>hand, from a design standpoint, there needs to be some kind of standard
>according to which vampires are designed. You obviously can't
>haphazardly make vampires with random amounts of "stuff". You need to
>design in a fair and balanced manner, so that each clan and each vampire
>has a comparable amount of utility, based on their cost. Your point
>system quite clearly falls into the former category, and that's not
>really what we're talking about here.
It's not any less standard than any other point system for designing vampires
I've seen. If the designers don't recognize the difference between a
meaningless diadvantage and a meaningful disadvantage, for instance, when
contemplating the card in the first place, that's bad design.
And, all I was doing was answering a question. That seemed to be what the
discussion was about.
davey!
On Thu, 17 May 2001, James Hamblin wrote:
> Carl Pilhatsch wrote:
> >
> > Being a non-Pander: 1 pt
> > each in-clan discipline at inferior: 1 pt
> > each in-clan discipline at superior: 1 pt, but every second is *free*
...I think this is to be viewed as an add on to the basic level, ie AUS
costs Remilliard 2 points, one for aus, another for the AUS upgrade.
> > each out-clan discipline at inferior: 0.5 pt
> > each out-clan discipline at superior: 1 pt
...not sure about this one though. Carl: does an out-of-clan superior
cost 1 or 1.5 total?
> > Being a Bishop: 1 pt
> > Being an Archbishop: 2 pt
> > Being a Cardinal: 3 pt
> > Being a Priscus: 1-2 pt
> > +1 bleed: 1 pt
> > +1 strength: 1 pt
> > other specials: 0.5-2 pt (depending on usefulness)
> > negative abilites: -0.5 to -1 pt (also depending)
I think Carl mentioned that there's some deviation too. Usually by about
.5 points. This probably stems from using a system which has a lot of .5
fractions for designing vampires who can only have whole-number
capacities.
> How do you know this is the formula? It doesn't fit a _lot_ of
> vampires:
>
> * 4's with one inferior and one superior (one even has a _dis_advantage)
non-pander + I-C + I-C + I-C-superiorization = 4
Clan-specific advantages and disadvantages are small.
> * 5's with one superior and two inferiors (two even have an out-of-clan
> inferior)
non-pander + IC + IC + IC-superiorization + .5 x out-of-clan = 4.5
Under the .5 deviation :-(
> * 5's with two superiors and one inferior (_underpowered_ by a point
> under this "system")
non-pander + IC + IC + IC + IC-superiorization
+ 0 x FREE-IC-superiorization = 5, so that works.
> * 6's with three superiors (underpowered by THREE points!?)
As above, + another IC-superiorization = 5 + 1 = 6, which works.
> There are many others, but these seem to be the most glaring examples.
> You may argue that the 6's with three superiors are not made under
> this system, so here are more examples of 6's:
>
> Marlene the Infernalist: underpowered by 2
> Ian Wallingford: underpowered by 2
> Luther: underpowered by 1 (making his special worth 0.5 pts.)
> Corine Marcon: underpowered by 2
> Quira the Bitch Queen: underpowered by 2
> Dylan: Properly costed
> Artemis: underpowered by 2
These all work out, actually.
> Caitlin: underpowered by 2
She works (as a 6.)
> Violet Tremain: underpowered by 0.5 (making her special 1 pt.)
> Jost Werner: underpowered by 1.5 (even making his +1 stealth count for 2
> pts.)
If you pay 1.5 for the specials, these both work. Fair for Jost, perhaps,
but Violet may go in the .5 deviation category...
> Lisette Vizquel: underpowered by 2 (making her special 0.5 pt.)
> Rev. Blackwood: underpowered by 1.5 (making his special worth 1 pt.)
> Aurora van Brande: underpowered by 0.5 (making her special 1 pt.)
These all pay .5 for their special, and work. Note that Aurora could have
had superior Potence or Dominate for free, but oh well...
> Vanessa: underpowered by 2.5
> Pieter: underpowered by 2
More like by .5. Note that Protean, Obfuscate, and Fortitude are all
in-clan for Pieter :-(
> Sheila Mezarin: underpowered by 1.5
Undercosted by .5
> Sela: underpowered by 0.5
Sela:
1 for non-pander
1 for +1 bleed
1 for Bishop
3 for in-lcan basics
1 for 1st superiorization
0 for free 2nd superiorization
.5 for out-of-clan basic
x for special ability
= 7.5 + x !
Yeah, Sela has always been too good. Maybe her special ability is really
severe a -1.5 point flaw? :-)
Also, Jessica is pretty good too:
1 for non-pander
3 for in-clan basics
1 for 1st superiorization
0 for free 2nd superiorization
1 for 3rd superiorization
1 for Bishop
x for Superior out-of-clan
So it looks like she gets superior obtenebration for free.
Any accounting for these two, Carl?
-d!
Roger Carhult
> I suppose I'll have to devote a newsletter to this sometime, but:
> Patrizia's special does NOT suck. It lets her go and get a retainer from
> your ash heap *no* *matter* how it got there. It doesn't have to have
been
> "burned since your last turn," as Compel the Spirit requires. Sure, you
pay
> for them, but if you try to equip with a retainer and get blocked, it's
> GONE. Unless you get it back using, say, Whispers from the Dead, costing
> not only a blood, but an action(!), or you use Patrizia.
WotD costs one blood but so does her special too so in that aspect they're
equal.
Roger
Roger Carhult
--
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3B0345C0...@white-wolf.com...
> James Coupe wrote:
> >
> > In message
> > <F820B3455EB1A60D.E9FF2BD7...@lp.airnews.net>,
> > Andrew S. Davidson <a...@csi.com> writes
> > >It's probably just a coincidence but he looks rather like LSJ.
> >
> > Not necessarily. This sort of thing is done quite often.
>
> Whatever similarity (which I don't see at all) is coincidental - the
> artist has never seen me TTBOMK.
>
TTBOMK? :)
Roger
Jasper Phillips
Halcyan 2 <halc...@aol.com> wrote:
>>That'll do it. Counting the special as 2 points makes him even more over
>>the top of the scale. But realistically, the special isn't even worth 0.5
>>points.
>
>Well, if the special isn't worth 0.5 points, what is it worth? 0? Since it's
>worth so little, why does Khalil even have such a worthless special? Or why
>doesn't *every* vampire have the +1 diablerie stealth since it really isn't
>worth anything. In fact, the mere existence of these "worthless" (not worth any
>points) specials like Khalil's and Vykos' makes me wonder why they were even
>given specials in the first place. They'd still be pretty good with an empty
>text box. But then again, maybe that's it. The urge to fill in the empty space
>is just too irresistible? =)
IMHO the game would be better if _every_ vampire had at some sort of
unique "worthless" special. On a point scale they may not come into play
often enough, or have a great enough effect to warrant even half a
"point", but the game would have greater variety, and hence be more
interesting. Balance isn't the only reason to have something in a game.
Oh, and why doesn't every vampire have +1 stealth on diablerie if it's
"so cheap"? Because that would be dull, and moreover have an impact on
how every game is played.
-Jasper
Jasper Phillips
Ian Lee <cur...@aol.com> wrote:
[snip]
>pointer. Also, to some degree, if the ability is trying to balance the point
>total of the vampire, I try to give it that credit, even if it is rather
>trivial. +1 stealth on diablerie is pretty trivial, but I can see giving it a
>point as I think Khalil isn't all that good lacking a second superior
>discipline.
Wait, so if a vampire sucks, you'll count it's sucky specials as worth
something, so that it's points come out even with others, even though
the vampire in fact sucks?
Isn't the whole point to have a meaningfull point system?
-Jasper
LSJ
> > artist has never seen me TTBOMK.
>
> TTBOMK? :)
To the best of my knowledge.
Ian Lee
>something, so that it's points come out even with others, even though
>the vampire in fact sucks?
>
>Isn't the whole point to have a meaningfull point system?
Seems obvious to me, but I look at point systems in multiple ways. I try to
explain the existing point system to myself so that I understand what is being
used. I also look at how I would try to improve it if I had any say in the
matter. It would be quite tedious to have to spell this out in every single
post.
And, I never said he sucked. I said he wasn't good. I suppose some people
would have been better satisfied if I said his discipline spread wasn't good
(though not out of line either), which is why a trivial advantageous special
makes sense to me as a way to fill out his points.
Pat Ricochet
Mostly equal. Patrizia does, in fact, "burn" a extra blood, so if she
gets a Zombie from the ash heap when she has one blood, it costs her nothing
more. (This is obviously best done when you've got a Hunting Ground ready
for next turn, or better yet, Leonardo to put a blood back onto her.)
And besides that, taking one action to get the retainer and another to
retain it (WotD method) is "half" as good as Patrizia just going and getting
it.
And, if it wasn't *burned*, I think those are your only choices to get
it out of the ash heap.
(Assuming "Waste_Management_Operation.tricks > /dev/null" =)
It's actually pretty fun with Ghoul Escorts; since even burned it's
worth it for Patrizia to get blocked, burn the Escort, untap, and go get the
Escort back, since Compel the Spirit also costs a blood and takes a card.
Rob Treasure
Anvil and Anson spring to mind :o)
Rob.
"davey!" <dhat...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.21.01051...@harper.uchicago.edu...
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.237 / Virus Database: 115 - Release Date: 07/03/01
James Coupe
<jas...@spock.peak.org> writes
>IMHO the game would be better if _every_ vampire had at some sort of
>unique "worthless" special.
To some extent, perhaps.
However, take a random Gangrel.
"ANI FOR pro" (say) might be better than "ANI for pro obf +1 intercept
versus diablerie attempts".
When the vampires have got good, solid disciplines, the "flavour" isn't
really needed. When they've got ever so slightly flakier discipline,
it's useful and helps add more utility/cross-deck appeal to them.
James Coupe
<rob.tr...@btinternet.com> writes
>Hmmm. Just reading this thread for the first time.
>
>Anvil
No-one can really cost Anvil sensibly-ish, relative to other vampires.
> and Anson spring to mind
Jyhad titles seemed to cost about a point, and I don't think they
realised how powerful the extra master was in comparison. Simply not
enough time to get to grips with the game. I mean, we're still
exploring concepts from then *now*.
davey!
On Thu, 17 May 2001, Rob Treasure wrote:
> Hmmm. Just reading this thread for the first time.
>
> Anvil and Anson spring to mind :o)
>
> [ snip sabbat points system ]
I'm pretty sure the point system described was implemented starting with
Sabbat, and didn't apply to earlier sets. There is a system someone
posted for Jyhad, which works pretty well, but I don't know if it's the
one the designers used. I think it's something like:
1 point for each basic
2 points for each superior
2 points for +1 bleed or +1 strength
.5 points per vote*
+1 for 1 to 4 cap
-1 for 9+ cap
0 for clan-specific advantages.
x for generic specials
* This leads to some rounding on Primogen and Justicars. Ventrue tend to
pay a bit less, Gangrel and Nossies tend to pay a bit more.
The tiering at 4 and 8 capacity makes sense, sense you usually get 4
transfers per turn. Compared with the Sabbat, the Cammies pay more for
disciplines, and less for titles.
Examples:
Bear Paw: 3 x 1 for basics + 2 for a superior = 5
Duck: 2 x 1 for basics -1 for being a 3 cap
Helena Casimir:
6 for 3 superiors + 2 for +1bleed + 2 for 2 basics -1 for 9 cap = 9
(The Primogen title is a freebie, since she's a Ventrue.)
Under this system, Anson pays 1 for his special. As for Anvil, I've
always felt he was a misprint; specifically, I think his text box
(including capacity) got mixed up with Appolonius' (or, equivalently,
their respective disciplines.) If this were the case, then the designers
may have intended:
Appolonius: CEL PRE for pot, primogen, 7 cap
working out to 2 + 2 + 1 + 1 + .5 = 6.5
Anvil: CEL POT pre dom tha, +1 bleed, optional press, primogen, 10 cap
working out to 2 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 2 + X + .5 -1 = 8.5 + X (X = 1.5)
1.5 for a press you ask? Yes, it's a little high, but note that Anvil has
Thaumaturgy... evil.
Pretty much all the other vampires in the original set follow this
exactly. The exceptions tend to be off only by .5, and it seems from the
Sabbat system that that was generally acceptable to the designers.
-d!
jeroen rombouts
<...>
> Oh, and why doesn't every vampire have +1 stealth on diablerie if it's
> "so cheap"? Because that would be dull, and moreover have an impact on
> how every game is played.
>
> -Jasper
>
You have to take Khalil's clan into account. A "+1 stealth on
diablerie"-special is almost useless for Ravnos because they have no means
of getting votes. The same special for , eg, Lasombra would be much better:
they can have vote lock and have the means to torporise vamps.
J.
Carl Pilhatsch
> >
> > Being a non-Pander: 1 pt
> > each in-clan discipline at inferior: 1 pt
> > each in-clan discipline at superior: 1 pt, but every second is *free*
> > each out-clan discipline at inferior: 0.5 pt
> > each out-clan discipline at superior: 1 pt
> > Being a Bishop: 1 pt
> > Being an Archbishop: 2 pt
> > Being a Cardinal: 3 pt
> > Being a Priscus: 1-2 pt
> > +1 bleed: 1 pt
> > +1 strength: 1 pt
> > other specials: 0.5-2 pt (depending on usefulness)
> > negative abilites: -0.5 to -1 pt (also depending)
>
> How do you know this is the formula? It doesn't fit a _lot_ of
> vampires:
>
Because that's what the *Sabbat* design team under WotC gave out to
the playtesters. Fact.
> * 4's with one inferior and one superior (one even has a _dis_advantage)
Which Sabbat vamps are you referring to? They fit according to the
formula.
> * 5's with one superior and two inferiors (two even have an out-of-clan
> inferior)
See above please.
> * 5's with two superiors and one inferior (_underpowered_ by a point
> under this "system")
2nd sup inclan for free... remember? ;)
> * 6's with three superiors (underpowered by THREE points!?)
How so? 1pt for being non pander, 1pt for each of their
inclan-disciplines on normal, and 1pt to upgrade an inf to sup-inclan,
where every 2nd upgrad is free.
1+3*1+2*1=6. Perfect fit.
> There are many others, but these seem to be the most glaring examples.
> You may argue that the 6's with three superiors are not made under this
> system, so here are more examples of 6's:
>
> Marlene the Infernalist: underpowered by 2
Wrong. 1 for being non-pander, 3 for the inclans at normal, 1 for the
inclan upgrad to superior (DOM or AUS free), 0.5 each for tha and dem.
6.
> Ian Wallingford: underpowered by 2
Wrong. 1 for non-pander, 3 for in-clan normals, 1 for PRE (CEL free),
one for Bishop. 6.
> Sela: underpowered by 0.5
Sela deviates from the formula quite a lot. That's because the design
team deemed her to weak in the end and thought to "up" her a bit.
She'd be worth 6.5 even when counting her special as a "0".
> Luther: underpowered by 1 (making his special worth 0.5 pts.)
1 for non-pander, 3 for inclans normal, 1 for ANI, 0.5 each for obt
and special. 6.
> Jost Werner: underpowered by 1.5 (even making his +1 stealth count for 2
> pts.)
1 for nonpander, 2 for inclans, 0.5 for ani, 1 for AUS (PRE free), 1,5
for special. 6. Note that having only 2 of the inclans was viewed as a
weakness in Sabbat, so this justified his special somewhat...
> Pieter: underpowered by 2
Only by 0.5. !Gangrel were quite messed up, see there varied
discipline mix. You can count all 5 as inclan for them. The design
team considered pro/cel a rather powerful combo. Remember that back in
those days the first point of aggro-damage also cost a blood.
> Sheila Mezarin: underpowered by 1.5
Overpowered by 0.5
> Corine Marcon: underpowered by 2
Perfect fit. 6.
> Vanessa: underpowered by 2.5
Underpowered by 0.5. Was downgraded a bit because of the Presence she
had...
> Rev. Blackwood: underpowered by 1.5 (making his special worth 1 pt.)
Fits. His special is worth 0.5
> Caitlin: underpowered by 2
Perfect fit now that she is 6 cap.
> Quira the Bitch Queen: underpowered by 2
Perfect fit.
> Dylan: Properly costed
Correct.
> Artemis: underpowered by 2
Perfect fit. 6.
> Lisette Vizquel: underpowered by 2 (making her special 0.5 pt.)
6 points, fits.
> Aurora van Brande: underpowered by 0.5 (making her special 1 pt.)
Her special is 0.5. She fits as a 6.
> Violet Tremain: underpowered by 0.5 (making her special 1 pt.)
She *probably* could also be a misprint. She is 5.5 even when counting
her special as 1 pt, but I think it's not sucha great special, so 0.5
would be more in line...
>
> Obviously the special abilities is where some subjectivity comes into
> play. But how can you justify this system as being the system used for
> the Sabbat set when ONE of the 6-capacity vampires is properly costed?
> Just a single one! The best vampire, according to this system, is
> Dylan, widely considered one of the worst 6 cap's.
All the vamps (with a small number of exceptions) are properly costed
to the Sabbat system as described. The vamps were all designed after
that formula, and later during playtesting individually adjusted.
That's what had happened.
>
> My only possible conclusion is that this cannot possibly be the system
> used to design vampires in the Sabbat set.
Rest assured it was the correct system.
>
> James
Carl
Carl Pilhatsch
>
> > Carl Pilhatsch wrote:
> > >
> > > Being a non-Pander: 1 pt
> > > each in-clan discipline at inferior: 1 pt
> > > each in-clan discipline at superior: 1 pt, but every second is *free*
>
> ...I think this is to be viewed as an add on to the basic level, ie AUS
> costs Remilliard 2 points, one for aus, another for the AUS upgrade.
Ahem, yes, sorry. My initial posting was a bit unclear on that part.
Sorry.
Upgrade inclan inf to SUP cost 1 point, still every secong upgrad
free.
>
> > > each out-clan discipline at inferior: 0.5 pt
> > > each out-clan discipline at superior: 1 pt
>
> ...not sure about this one though. Carl: does an out-of-clan superior
> cost 1 or 1.5 total?
out-clan-sup costs 1 point total.
>
> > > Being a Bishop: 1 pt
> > > Being an Archbishop: 2 pt
> > > Being a Cardinal: 3 pt
> > > Being a Priscus: 1-2 pt
> > > +1 bleed: 1 pt
> > > +1 strength: 1 pt
> > > other specials: 0.5-2 pt (depending on usefulness)
> > > negative abilites: -0.5 to -1 pt (also depending)
>
> I think Carl mentioned that there's some deviation too. Usually by about
> .5 points. This probably stems from using a system which has a lot of .5
> fractions for designing vampires who can only have whole-number
> capacities.
Yes, a little deviation is there, as you said, about 0.5, but more
with Violet Tremain.
> > Lisette Vizquel: underpowered by 2 (making her special 0.5 pt.)
> > Rev. Blackwood: underpowered by 1.5 (making his special worth 1 pt.)
> > Aurora van Brande: underpowered by 0.5 (making her special 1 pt.)
>
> These all pay .5 for their special, and work. Note that Aurora could have
> had superior Potence or Dominate for free, but oh well...
Consider that design-team fine-tuning... :)
Sela was probably deemed to weak for a !Brujah by the design team.
Same perhaps for Jessica, but IMO she is probably a misprint. The
design team made some final changes without consulting anyone, so
let's just say they were ... in a funny mood that day. :)
Carl
Carl Pilhatsch
> >
> >>
>
> Mostly equal. Patrizia does, in fact, "burn" a extra blood, so if she
> gets a Zombie from the ash heap when she has one blood, it costs her nothing
> more. (This is obviously best done when you've got a Hunting Ground ready
> for next turn, or better yet, Leonardo to put a blood back onto her.)
> And besides that, taking one action to get the retainer and another to
> retain it (WotD method) is "half" as good as Patrizia just going and getting
> it.
> And, if it wasn't *burned*, I think those are your only choices to get
> it out of the ash heap.
> (Assuming "Waste_Management_Operation.tricks > /dev/null" =)
>
> It's actually pretty fun with Ghoul Escorts; since even burned it's
> worth it for Patrizia to get blocked, burn the Escort, untap, and go get the
> Escort back, since Compel the Spirit also costs a blood and takes a card.
Let me point out again that Patrizia is *probably* a misprint, as she
was a 4 cap vamp during playtesting.
Carl
Flux
"Carl Pilhatsch" <Don_C...@MailAndNews.com> wrote in message
news:3B08...@MailAndNews.com...
> Finally I'm back. :)
> Ok, on to the topic:
> WotC used the cited template for The Sabbat. It's worth noting, that each
> vamp
> got a number of points equal to his/her capacity, and big ones (cap 9-10)
> slightly more. Here is the system again:
>
> Being a non-Pander: 1 pt
> each in-clan discipline at inferior: 1 pt
> each in-clan discipline at superior: 1 pt, but every second is *free*
> each out-clan discipline at inferior: 0.5 pt
> each out-clan discipline at superior: 1 pt
> Being a Bishop: 1 pt
> Being an Archbishop: 2 pt
> Being a Cardinal: 3 pt
> Being a Priscus: 1-2 pt
> +1 bleed: 1 pt
> +1 strength: 1 pt
> other specials: 0.5-2 pt (depending on usefulness)
> negative abilites: -0.5 to -1 pt (also depending)
>
> A number of Sabbat vamps deviate from this formula, but in general it's
the
> one
> used.
>
> Carl
Frankly, I find this formula about as useless as every other one proposed,
even if it was the one WoTC used. It needs too much fine-tuning to really
work and be balanced, which might explain why Sabbat vampires seem generally
better than Camarilla ones.
For example, the second SUP discipline being free means that any 4-cap could
potentially have 2 in-clan disciplines at SUP. The only reason this doesn't
happen is because the design team were sensible enough not to do it (well,
except for Jimmy Dunn :-) ), but that just shows that the system fails to do
what it was supposed to.
And how come all Panders have as many Discipline points as their capacity
(I'll assume they pay in-clan costs for all disciplines), yet they all have
a disadvantage too? And the large-cap vampires have large variations too,
Lazverinus gets 12 points, Lambach gets 13 (assuming agg damage is one
point), yet Genevieve gets only 10.
It's not a good system when the exceptions outnumber the rule...
We can't even compare this to different expansions, since the system was
most probably changed, but at least we can hope that FN vampires won't
follow this messed up template.
Flux
Pat Ricochet
She's sure be a lot better that way, even if just for "trick decks"
(qui/tha or nec/tha, say), just being able to influence her in one turn.
Pat Ricochet
Well, certainly, but from Carl's post, you can see that even the
"exceptions" aren't exceptions unless you're trying to count them that way.
The exceptions are actually very few, and the "rule" is all the *other*
vamps, so the rule far outnumbers the exception.
> We can't even compare this to different expansions, since the system was
> most probably changed, but at least we can hope that FN vampires won't
> follow this messed up template.
What I think we hope most is that the Giovanni and the FoS both get new
vampires with actual in-clan disciplines, instead of !Gangrel style
all-over-the-road ones, that Ancient Hearts did so much of.
James Coupe
<sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> writes
> What I think we hope most is that the Giovanni and the FoS both get new
>vampires with actual in-clan disciplines, instead of !Gangrel style
>all-over-the-road ones
Remember that !Gangrel are a mish-mash of, ostensibly, two separate
clans, covering *FIVE* disciplines. OBF CEL PRO for the City Gangrel
Antitribu, and ANI FOR PRO for the Country lot.
Still can't account for Shane Grimald, though, but that's most likely
done by assuming someone was drunk.
Pat Ricochet
> In message <B72ADFBE.3C73%sp...@socrates.gatech.edu>, Pat Ricochet
> <sp...@socrates.gatech.edu> writes
>> What I think we hope most is that the Giovanni and the FoS both get new
>> vampires with actual in-clan disciplines, instead of !Gangrel style
>> all-over-the-road ones
>
> Remember that !Gangrel are a mish-mash of, ostensibly, two separate
> clans, covering *FIVE* disciplines. OBF CEL PRO for the City Gangrel
> Antitribu, and ANI FOR PRO for the Country lot.
Yeah, but even outside of THAT, the !Gangrel have the most spread
discipline set (pre-SabbatWar). I remember Derek and I quantified this one,
and don't remember how, but I do remember how depressing the results were.
> Still can't account for Shane Grimald, though, but that's most likely
> done by assuming someone was drunk.
Or Pieter. Or Blaise, really. Or Luther's Obtenebration; cute, but the
!Gangrel would have done better to make it Obf or Cel. With 5 abilities,
you'd think they'd have better "crossover" vamps.
Oddly, I like Shane ([ani] [dom] being fun), but it's a pity the already
disparate !Gangrel got him. Might have made a better Lasombra, but they
already had Ramiro([dom] [obt] [vic]), I guess.
Flux
> > It's not a good system when the exceptions outnumber the rule...
>
> Well, certainly, but from Carl's post, you can see that even the
> "exceptions" aren't exceptions unless you're trying to count them that
way.
> The exceptions are actually very few, and the "rule" is all the *other*
> vamps, so the rule far outnumbers the exception.
Well, all the Panders are obviously an exception, which leaves me wondering
what's the point of having non-Pander paying for the privilege, when they
don't follow the same rules anyway. Same thing with large vamps, they don't
even show consistency among themselves...
And what's the point of having a system if you're not going to enforce it?
I could just point out that the current system (1 point for inf, 2 for sup,
total points vary by capacity), or maybe the one used for AH or DS (not sure
about these right now), will fit the Sabbat vampires nearly as well as this
one, _with a few exceptions_. When it doesn't, you'll often find that it is
simply because the system was apparently thrown out of the window anyway, or
because the Sabbat system was ambiguous to start with. So why use this set
of contrived rules, for which you have to make exceptions anyway, when a
simpler, more efficient and more balanced system was within reach?
Anyway, I know there's not much point in complaining about this now, WotC is
no longer responsible for VtES and the current design team seems to be doing
a fine job, so I guess I'll shut up... for now. ;-)
Flux
James Hamblin
Carl Pilhatsch wrote:
>
> > > Being a non-Pander: 1 pt
> > > each in-clan discipline at inferior: 1 pt
> > > each in-clan discipline at superior: 1 pt, but every second is *free*
This really doesn't say what you intended, which explains my not
understanding your meaning. What you should have said was:
each in-clan discipline at superior: 2 pts, every second is 1 pt.
> > > each out-clan discipline at inferior: 0.5 pt
> > > each out-clan discipline at superior: 1 pt
Especially when you have said (in another message) that this does *not*
mean that out-of-clan superiors cost a total of 1.5 pts.
> > > Being a Bishop: 1 pt
> > > Being an Archbishop: 2 pt
> > > Being a Cardinal: 3 pt
> > > Being a Priscus: 1-2 pt
> > > +1 bleed: 1 pt
> > > +1 strength: 1 pt
> > > other specials: 0.5-2 pt (depending on usefulness)
> > > negative abilites: -0.5 to -1 pt (also depending)
> >
> > How do you know this is the formula? It doesn't fit a _lot_ of
> > vampires:
The formula still seems absurd. (2 pts for Archbishop? That non-Pander
nonsense?) but I believe you now that this is the "official" formula. I
can only hope the current design team uses something more sane.
[snip everything else]
James Hamblin
James Coupe wrote:
>
> Remember that !Gangrel are a mish-mash of, ostensibly, two separate
> clans, covering *FIVE* disciplines. OBF CEL PRO for the City Gangrel
> Antitribu, and ANI FOR PRO for the Country lot.
>
> Still can't account for Shane Grimald, though, but that's most likely
> done by assuming someone was drunk.
Blaise, too. She's like a Commuter Gangrel.
Ian Lee
Because card design is an art. Any point system is best as a guideline.
Sticking to one rigidly can easily lead to unbalanced cards.
For instance, would this be unbalanced:
Ravnos
4 cap
DOM, OBF, for
Comes out normal enough if you have out of clan count half points.
Flux
"Ian Lee" <cur...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010518214232...@ng-fr1.aol.com...
Precisely. It would be preferable to have a system that doesn't allow this
in the first place. The current system (or the one used for Jyhad) would not
allow it, all disciplines cost the same, so you can expect same-cap vampires
to have similar discipline counts.
While there will always be some choices to be made regarding discipline
spreads and special abilities, the system should help with that, and not
create potential pitfalls.
Last night I went through the Sabbat vampires on ELDB, I counted around 40
exceptions to the rules by following this system (about 25% of all vamps),
and I even ignored those vampires I wasn't able to measure the special
abilities cost accurately. While most deviated by only +-.5 points and could
be accounted with rounding, it's still a whole lot of exceptions that the
system could cover. They could easily give or take an out of clan discipline
to make them all fit to the system, they probably didn't because it would
unbalance many of those vampires (even further), which only shows the system
was inadequate. Actually, I wonder how many exceptions we might find in the
base set...
Flux
James Coupe
>Actually, I wonder how many exceptions we might find in the
>base set...
Not many, really.
And those which do occur are mostly accounted for by the special ability
being over-costed.
Halcyan 2
>> >the top of the scale. But realistically, the special isn't even worth 0.5
>> >points.
>>
>> Well, if the special isn't worth 0.5 points, what is it worth? 0? Since
>it's
>> worth so little, why does Khalil even have such a worthless special? Or why
>> doesn't *every* vampire have the +1 diablerie stealth since it really isn't
>> worth anything. In fact, the mere existence of these "worthless" (not worth
>any
>> points) specials like Khalil's and Vykos' makes me wonder why they were
>even
>> given specials in the first place. They'd still be pretty good with an
>empty
>> text box. But then again, maybe that's it. The urge to fill in the empty
>space
>> is just too irresistible? =)
>
>
>> Moving to the subjective side, I'm a bit curious as to exactly how some of
>you
>> guys classify various specials. James mentions how often it is used, which
>is
>> an important factor (though not the only one). And of course there is the
>> matter of how powerful the effect is (some abilities might be pretty good
>even
>> if you only manage to use it once or twice a game). And while you're at it,
>I
>> know it may be hard to define, but exactly what makes a special
>"worthless?"
>> Thanks!
>
>Utility.
>
Okay. Good enough explanations for me! =)
Halcyan 2