A Question for Mongers

[Brian Tandy]

Suppose a primogen takes a stealthed action. Suppose also that the
tapped puppet prince (Volker, who can't attempt to block primogens)
plays 2nd tradition to untap, attempts to intercept, discovers that he can't,
and remains untapped.

Do you think this is legal? My opponent stridently objected, of course. I
eventually relented and went on to sweep the table.

I was under the impression that only two condition needed to be satisfied to
use 2nd trad. 1) the prince must be tapped, and 2) the intercept must be
needed. The card text then goes on to say something like: this vampire
untaps and attempts to block the acting minion.

The opponent claimed that Volker could not play 2nd trad. on account of the
inability to attempt to block primogens.

Brian Tandy : Carpe per diem---seize the petty cash
bta...@math.utexas.edu : from Revesz's "Rules to Live By"

[L. Scott Johnson]

jam...@dgii.com (James Puzzo) writes:
> Brian Tandy (bta...@bernard.ma.utexas.edu) wrote:
> : Suppose a primogen takes a stealthed action. Suppose also that the

> : tapped puppet prince (Volker, who can't attempt to block primogens)
> : plays 2nd tradition to untap, attempts to intercept, discovers that
> : he can't, and remains untapped.
>

> : I was under the impression that only two condition needed to be satisfied to

> : use 2nd trad. 1) the prince must be tapped, and 2) the intercept must be
> : needed. The card text then goes on to say something like: this vampire
> : untaps and attempts to block the acting minion.
>

> Yes, but card text prevents Volker from making an attempt to block... meaning
> that he is not allowed to do what the card says to do... meaning that he can't
> play the card in the first place.
>
> At least, that's how I read it.
>
> LSJ?

Very good. Volker cannot play 2nd tradition if he cannot block the given
action. The impression that 2nd tradition only requires a tapped P/J who
requires intercept stems from the basics of playing intercept: Namely,
only a minion who is attempting to block an action may play reaction
cards which give him intercept. (The "tapped" part stems from errata to
the Jyhad version of 2ndT which was incorporated into the VtES version.)

So, if you have an Incriminating videotape of Rake, then Rake cannot
play intercept-bestowing reaction cards in response to you action.
This means he can't play 2nd Tradition, Enhanced Senses, etc.

If Voker is blood bonded to the acting vampire (primogen or not), then
he cannot play intercept reaction cards.

And, of course, if the acting vampire is a Primogen, the Volker cannot
play intercept reaction cards - including 2nd tradition.
--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Hard work has a future payoff.
http://www.math.sc.edu/cgi-bin/sjohnson/home | Laziness pays off now.
Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. |

[James Puzzo]

Brian Tandy (bta...@bernard.ma.utexas.edu) wrote:

This is a gut reaction and in no way, shape, or form represents an official
view:

: Suppose a primogen takes a stealthed action. Suppose also that the
: tapped puppet prince (Volker, who can't attempt to block primogens)
: plays 2nd tradition to untap, attempts to intercept, discovers that
: he can't, and remains untapped.
:

: Do you think this is legal? My opponent stridently objected, of course. I

: eventually relented and went on to sweep the table.

No, I don't think so. It seems to be a trend among rulings that if card text
(or some other restriction) prevents a minion from doing something, then they
can't use an effect which would even allow them to try.

I would use, as an example, Mask of 1000 faces. It has been noted that an
Assamite can't even play a Mask to take over a diablerie action because they
are prevented (by card text) from doing so (attempting diablerie). Same with
someone holding a Talbot's Chainsaw not being allowed to take over a hunt
action.

: I was under the impression that only two condition needed to be satisfied to
: use 2nd trad. 1) the prince must be tapped, and 2) the intercept must be
: needed. The card text then goes on to say something like: this vampire
: untaps and attempts to block the acting minion.

Yes, but card text prevents Volker from making an attempt to block... meaning
that he is not allowed to do what the card says to do... meaning that he can't
play the card in the first place.

At least, that's how I read it.

LSJ?

-spongy