SHAWN: Q: Fading Glimpse of a Banished vampire

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L. Scott Johnson

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Sep 16, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/16/96
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Shawn (or any repesentative of WotC who reads this group):

If my vampire with Pulse of Canaille and Sengir Dagger, having
been the victim of Shackles of Ekindu and Phobia, is Banished
to my uncontrolled region, and then receiving a Tomb of Ramses
III from me, is returned to my Crypt via Fading Glimpse, what
happens to all of the cards one him?

(Since no one from WotC is reading this group, I pose the question
mainly as an excersize for any Rulemongers-in-training out there :-).

It's pretty obvious that all of the cards will fall off (and return
to their owner's ash heaps) with the exception of the Tomb, which
is only burned when the target becomes controlled - although it has
the (erroneous?) "place on vampire" text which should mean that it's
burned as well.

But, there's no official position on this - only on what happens to
card on *burned* minions, so it is quite acceptable to say that the
cards remain with the crypted vampire, a la an extension of the
instructions on Banishment (since no other instructions or rules
exist to counter this instruction). Except that Fading Glimpse says
to return the blood on the vampire to the would-be controller - so
you could also extend that text to "return the cards on that vampire
to the controller" and let the controller redistribute the cards
a la Shepherd's Innocence.

---
'Course, this is all rather elementary, since the likelyhood of the
vampire on the bottom of the crypt becoming controlled is small (unless
the vampire has Serpentis and is sought after by "Summon the Serpent").

--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.sc.edu) | Clap on! <clap> <clap>
http://www.math.sc.edu/~sjohnson | Clap off! <clap> <cla+W."
Graphics Specialist and V:tES Rulemonger. | ^Ejq#xe>4NO CARRIER

Malcolm McCallum

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Sep 17, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/17/96
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On 16 Sep 1996, L. Scott Johnson wrote:

> Shawn (or any repesentative of WotC who reads this group):
>
> If my vampire with Pulse of Canaille and Sengir Dagger, having
> been the victim of Shackles of Ekindu and Phobia, is Banished
> to my uncontrolled region, and then receiving a Tomb of Ramses
> III from me, is returned to my Crypt via Fading Glimpse, what
> happens to all of the cards one him?
>
> (Since no one from WotC is reading this group, I pose the question
> mainly as an excersize for any Rulemongers-in-training out there :-).
>
> It's pretty obvious that all of the cards will fall off (and return
> to their owner's ash heaps) with the exception of the Tomb, which
> is only burned when the target becomes controlled - although it has
> the (erroneous?) "place on vampire" text which should mean that it's
> burned as well.
>
> But, there's no official position on this - only on what happens to
> card on *burned* minions, so it is quite acceptable to say that the
> cards remain with the crypted vampire, a la an extension of the
> instructions on Banishment (since no other instructions or rules
> exist to counter this instruction). Except that Fading Glimpse says
> to return the blood on the vampire to the would-be controller - so
> you could also extend that text to "return the cards on that vampire
> to the controller" and let the controller redistribute the cards
> a la Shepherd's Innocence.

This is a joke, right? Have we really reached the point where, because
ther is no 'official clarification' done regarding an intuitively obvious
chain of events that one cannot simply make a personal decision that is
fair and reasonable? Of course the tomb is burned. All the cards are
burned, Dave. They're all burned. Dave, all the cards are burned. Yes,
Dave, even the tomb is burned. Burned, Dave, are all the cards.

L. Scott Johnson

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Sep 18, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/18/96
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Malcolm McCallum <mcca...@pacificcoast.net> writes:
>On 16 Sep 1996, L. Scott Johnson wrote:
>> If my vampire with Pulse of Canaille and Sengir Dagger, having
>> been the victim of Shackles of Ekindu and Phobia, is Banished
>> to my uncontrolled region, and then receiving a Tomb of Ramses
>> III from me, is returned to my Crypt via Fading Glimpse, what
>> happens to all of the cards one him?
>>
>> It's pretty obvious that all of the cards will fall off (and return
>> to their owner's ash heaps) with the exception of the Tomb, which
>> is only burned when the target becomes controlled - although it has
>> the (erroneous?) "place on vampire" text which should mean that it's
>> burned as well.
>>
>> But, there's no official position on this - only on what happens to
>> card on *burned* minions, so it is quite acceptable to say that the
>> cards remain with the crypted vampire, a la an extension of the
>> instructions on Banishment (since no other instructions or rules
>> exist to counter this instruction). Except that Fading Glimpse says
>> to return the blood on the vampire to the would-be controller - so
>> you could also extend that text to "return the cards on that vampire
>> to the controller" and let the controller redistribute the cards
>> a la Shepherd's Innocence.

>This is a joke, right? Have we really reached the point where, because
>ther is no 'official clarification' done regarding an intuitively obvious
>chain of events that one cannot simply make a personal decision that is
>fair and reasonable? Of course the tomb is burned. All the cards are
>burned, Dave. They're all burned. Dave, all the cards are burned. Yes,
>Dave, even the tomb is burned. Burned, Dave, are all the cards.

No, it is not a joke. It is a request to clear up a rather small
concern in order to understand the mechanics of the game as a whole.
Some of us have reached a point where we understand a great deal about
the game, and therefore notice the points that could lead to debate.
Those of us that reach this point prefer to have the gray areas
cleared away officially before they become exposed in a tournament
situation (where judges cannot be relied on to make sensible calls on
even the most "obvious" matters, like bouncing a Return to Innocence).

<peddling it to the cheap seats:>
Of course one can make a personal decision, as I illustrated. How that
helps clear things up, I don't follow. A personal decision of mine is
that "Of course you can play a Jyhad-text 2nd tradition un an untapped
Prince, Dave. Dave, untapped Princes can still police their domain..."
But try that "obvious" line in a tournament and see if the person being
blocked is agreeable.
<end peddle>

Some of us approach the game intelligently and have learned the value
of debate. I posted the obvious, knee-jerk response to get it out of
the way so that the group wouldn't be glutted with a slew of posts
making that (obvious) point. I was only mostly successful, apparently.

I also posted the reasoning that leads to other responses in the hopes
of illuminating how this really is a gray area. Unfortunately, I
apparently failed to use sufficient light for some myopic readers, and
for that, I apologize.

Shawn F. Carnes

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Sep 19, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/19/96
to L. Scott Johnson

L. Scott Johnson wrote:
>
> Shawn (or any repesentative of WotC who reads this group):
>
> If my vampire with Pulse of Canaille and Sengir Dagger, having
> been the victim of Shackles of Ekindu and Phobia, is Banished
> to my uncontrolled region, and then receiving a Tomb of Ramses
> III from me, is returned to my Crypt via Fading Glimpse, what
> happens to all of the cards one him?

All the cards (sans Tomb) go to the ash heap.

> (Since no one from WotC is reading this group, I pose the question
> mainly as an excersize for any Rulemongers-in-training out there :-).

I guess you're right--these messages just magically appear in my
computer via fairy-dust! ;)

> It's pretty obvious that all of the cards will fall off (and return
> to their owner's ash heaps) with the exception of the Tomb, which
> is only burned when the target becomes controlled - although it has
> the (erroneous?) "place on vampire" text which should mean that it's
> burned as well.

Erroneous is correct. The Tomb is being considered by the rules team as
we speak. Until then, use what I say above (sans fairy-dust) as the
ruling.
--

>>> Shawn F. Carnes
Game Designer and Developer, Wizards of the Coast, Inc
WotC NetRep for rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
*************************************************************
"Which one of you claims to be the craziest? Which one the
biggest loony? Who runs these card games? Who's the bull
goose loony here?"
--McMurphy, "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest"

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