DESIGN TEAM RULINGS: 5/9/95

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Purple Kitty

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May 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/9/95
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Thomas R Wylie (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote:

: GENERAL RULINGS

: 7) If you rescue someone else's vampire from torpor, your vampire
: must pay both blood. The vampire being rescued may only pay the
: blood cost of being rescued if you're rescuing your own vampire.

Why such a strong ruling? Sometimes I'll offer to help a temporary ally
by rescuing his vampire, as long as he pays the blood. Was such a
situation affecting game balance?

: 3) Blood Rage should be a Thaumaturgy card, not a Fortitude card.

ALL RIGHT! Now just fix Enchant Kindred and you've got the major major bugs!

: Presses can only be provided by players involved in the
: combat, so you cannot use Mob Connections or Police Department on
: a combat you're not involved in. Elysium and Frenzy may be used
: regardless of whether you're involved in the combat.

Why this reversal? Why can I open the Elysium doors to other players (and
THROW them inside, if they wanted to keep fighting), but not send the
Police out to break up the fight? This doesn't make sense...

: 3) "Shouldn't Hidden Lurker be an action modifier?"
: No. It is an action, as the card says.

Oh great...that means that the methusalah can play an UNLIMITED NUMBER of
Hidden Lurkers from that one initial action, while another methuselah can
only play ONE Fast Reaction. This is an unbalance.

: 9) If Fame is played on a vampire that is already in torpor, the
: 3 pool loss does not happen, but players start losing 1 blood on
: their turn as described on the card.

Ahem...I thought it was made abundantly clear that one cannot play Fame
on a vampire in torpor. Is this a reversal?

--

Meow!


James R. McClure Jr.

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May 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/9/95
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aa...@cats.ucsc.edu (Thomas R Wylie) wrote:

Peace Tom,

First, thank you for posting this.

> ERRATA TO CARDS AND RULES


>
> 3) Blood Rage should be a Thaumaturgy card, not a Fortitude card.

How can I say this . . . YEAH!

> CARD RULINGS


>
> 3) "Shouldn't Hidden Lurker be an action modifier?"
> No. It is an action, as the card says.

Um, isn't this wrong again?

> 6) "What happens if I play superior Form of Mist to end combat,
> but the blocking minion plays Psyche?"
> Psyche forces a new combat, and the effects of Form of Mist
> are lost.

You won't hear me complain about this.

Thanks for clairifying several things.


Nil carborundum illigitimi,

James R. McClure Jr.
The OS/2 Apostle

<insert disclaimer here>

Joseph Cochran

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May 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/9/95
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In article <pkittyD8...@netcom.com>,

That's true. The card text *does* say "play on a ready
vampire." How did this ruling get in there?

| If you've got a hot lead on a new | *--Joe--*
| PC game, call the announce line at | js...@vt.edu
| ** csi...@discus.ise.vt.edu ** |
+-------------------------------------+----------------------------------
"Carnivores, oy!" -- Timon, TLK

L. Scott Johnson

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May 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/9/95
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In article <3on4us$l...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>,
Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>
>3) There has been some confusion as to whether Out-of-Turn Master
>cards are playable during your turn or not. While the original
>conception of out-of-turn cards had them playable during your
>turn, this changed before Jyhad went to press, and some of the
>rules and cards were not properly adjusted. You may only play
>out-of-turn cards during someone else's turn.

Nice to have you come out of the closet on this one. Thank you.

>4) There has also been some confusion over how "strike: combat
>ends" works. "Combat ends" does not resolve during strike
>resolution; if a "combat ends" strike is played, the combat is
>over immediately. If the acting minion played the strike, the
>combat ends before the blocking minion can even declare a strike.

'tho there's still no place like home, eh? :-). (the closet).

>
>5) If an action card such as Computer Hacking provides a directed
>bleed, you may bleed any player other than yourself. This
>overrides the rules for the default bleed, which is a directed
>action only usable against your prey. This is something else that
>changed during playtesting, which is why Cat Burglary indicates
>different rules for directed bleeds. Any future printings of Cat
>Burglary will be changed to make the card useful.

Confession is good for the soul. I feel better already.

>REVERSALS
>
>1) The FAQ states that if a Malkavian is stolen by Malkavian
>Dementia and its new controller is ousted before the Dementia's
>effect ends, then the vampire is returned. This is incorrect; the
>Malkavian would be burned normally.

Thank you again. <blush>

>ERRATA TO CARDS AND RULES
>
>3) Blood Rage should be a Thaumaturgy card, not a Fortitude card.

<seconds pass as I regain consciousness>
Baye-do. <glazed eyes>

>
>CARD RULINGS
>
>1a) "Someone's vampire just got sent to torpor, and the other
>player is planning on burning it with Amaranth. Do I have time to
>save the vampire with Minor Boon? If I do, does it continue the
>combat?"
>1b) "If a vampire is saved with Minor Boon, can I play Pulled
>Fangs on it, and send it to torpor again?"
> Minor Boon is used after the combat is actually over. Thus
>it is used after Pulled Fangs could be played, and using it does
>not cause the combat to continue. If it matters whether it is
>used before or after another card, use the normal play procedure
>for combat: acting player plays first, then blocking player, then
>in turn order starting with the acting player's prey.

So, for 1a) there is no timing, since Amaranth is played *during* the
combat - before you have a chance to play Minor Boon, yes?

>2) "Can I use Elysium on a combat I'm not involved with? How
>about Frenzy? Mob Connections? Police Department?"


> Presses can only be provided by players involved in the
>combat, so you cannot use Mob Connections or Police Department on
>a combat you're not involved in. Elysium and Frenzy may be used
>regardless of whether you're involved in the combat.

Frenzy provides a Press. Why can it be used when Polica Dept cannot?

>3) "Shouldn't Hidden Lurker be an action modifier?"
> No. It is an action, as the card says.

Eh? it *should*, but it isn't (answer the question, don't sidestep it).

>
>6) "What happens if I play superior Form of Mist to end combat,
>but the blocking minion plays Psyche?"
> Psyche forces a new combat, and the effects of Form of Mist
>are lost.

But Psyche doen't block the action's continuance, it simply restarts combat.

>8) When you play superior Govern the Unaligned, you may choose
>any vampire, even one belonging to another player. If that
>vampire turns out to not be younger than the acting vampire, then
>no blood is placed. For example, if Helena Casimir uses Govern
>the Unaligned on someone else's vampire that turns out to be
>Democritus, the action simply doesn't do anything. The acting
>player does not find out that she tried to put blood on
>Democritus, and only knows that it must be some 10-blood vampire.
>This applies to all similar cards, such as Enchant Kindred.

Why don't you just fix the text on the card to have them do only what they
were intended to do?

>
>9) If Fame is played on a vampire that is already in torpor, the
>3 pool loss does not happen, but players start losing 1 blood on
>their turn as described on the card.

Fame cannot be played on a vampire in torpor. (card text).
Try Anarch Revolt if you simply want to lose pool.

>10) A Malkavian in torpor may take advantage of Madness Network
>to rescue itself on another player's turn.

I thought MadNet said "Ready" malkavian.


--
-----
L. Scott Johnson (lsc...@crl.com) | The opinions expressed are mine
Graphics Specialist and Jyhad Rulemonger | and subject to card text

L. Scott Johnson

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May 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/9/95
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pki...@netcom.com (Purple Kitty) writes:

>Thomas R Wylie (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote:

>: GENERAL RULINGS

>: 7) If you rescue someone else's vampire from torpor, your vampire
>: must pay both blood. The vampire being rescued may only pay the
>: blood cost of being rescued if you're rescuing your own vampire.

>Why such a strong ruling? Sometimes I'll offer to help a temporary ally
>by rescuing his vampire, as long as he pays the blood. Was such a
>situation affecting game balance?

Probably just too complicated to control how the blood was spent.
(Although the complications didn't keep them from !@#$ing over the
GtU when (mis-)applied to another Meth's uncontrolled vampire).

>: 3) Blood Rage should be a Thaumaturgy card, not a Fortitude card.

>ALL RIGHT! Now just fix Enchant Kindred and you've got the major major bugs!

And Concealed Weapon.

>: Presses can only be provided by players involved in the

>: combat, so you cannot use Mob Connections or Police Department on
>: a combat you're not involved in. Elysium and Frenzy may be used
>: regardless of whether you're involved in the combat.

>Why this reversal? Why can I open the Elysium doors to other players (and

>THROW them inside, if they wanted to keep fighting), but not send the
>Police out to break up the fight? This doesn't make sense...

True. The only card that should be allowed in external Combats is Frenzy,
due to card text, and Nos Put (of course).

>: 3) "Shouldn't Hidden Lurker be an action modifier?"


>: No. It is an action, as the card says.

>Oh great...that means that the methusalah can play an UNLIMITED NUMBER of

>Hidden Lurkers from that one initial action, while another methuselah can
>only play ONE Fast Reaction. This is an unbalance.

But the action may be blocked (stupidly), whereas the Reaction cannot.
This was my point so long ago when I got the DT to shake of some of the
nonsense that seems to define their being.

--
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu) | These opinions are mine and
Graphics Specialist and Jyhad Rulemonger. | are subject to card text.

Paul Schaaf

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May 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/9/95
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On Tue, 9 May 1995, Purple Kitty wrote:

> Thomas R Wylie (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote:
>
> : 3) "Shouldn't Hidden Lurker be an action modifier?"
> : No. It is an action, as the card says.
>

Doesn't this make Hidden Lurker almost useless? All you have to do is
block it. You still get in combat, but you don't get your free strike.

---------
Paul Schaaf
sch...@u.washington.edu


K. Chadwick

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May 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/9/95
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In article <3oo380$6...@solaris.cc.vt.edu>,

Joseph Cochran <js...@discus.ise.vt.edu> wrote:
>In article <pkittyD8...@netcom.com>,
>Purple Kitty <pki...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>Thomas R Wylie (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote:
>>: 9) If Fame is played on a vampire that is already in torpor, the
>>: 3 pool loss does not happen, but players start losing 1 blood on
>>: their turn as described on the card.
>>
>>Ahem...I thought it was made abundantly clear that one cannot play Fame
>>on a vampire in torpor. Is this a reversal?
>
> That's true. The card text *does* say "play on a ready
>vampire." How did this ruling get in there?
>


At least the ruling does not say you can play it onto a vamp in torpor,
but IF you did then... :)

-steve
ker...@geoworks.com


Thomas Doehne

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May 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/9/95
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pki...@netcom.com (Purple Kitty) writes:
>ALL RIGHT! Now just fix Enchant Kindred and you've got the major major bugs!

Enchant Kindred? It the problem with this the same as with GtU?

--
Tom Doehne
doe...@cse.ogi.edu

Thomas R Wylie

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May 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/9/95
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GENERAL RULINGS

1) Using equipment is always optional, while using retainers is
always mandatory. Card texts may break these rules, of course.
While several retainers are phrased as being optional (Ghoul
Escort, Resplendant Protector, etc.), retainers in general default
to being mandatory. Note that using Ghoul Retainer is not
optional; it is giving you the option of using hands vs. using a
weapon.

2) "If I steal a piece of equipment that my opponent is using as
a strike, is the strike neutralized, or does my minion still
suffer the effect?"
If the weapon is stolen at first strike, but its strike
happens normally, then the weapon's strike is neutralized so does
nothing. A Sawed-Off Shotgun stolen this way could be used again
later in the combat, a Bomb stolen this way would not be burned
and would not damage its user, etc. If the weapon and the steal
weapon are both used at first strike (or neither is), then the
weapon is used normally before changing controller.

3) There has been some confusion as to whether Out-of-Turn Master
cards are playable during your turn or not. While the original
conception of out-of-turn cards had them playable during your
turn, this changed before Jyhad went to press, and some of the
rules and cards were not properly adjusted. You may only play
out-of-turn cards during someone else's turn.

4) There has also been some confusion over how "strike: combat

ends" works. "Combat ends" does not resolve during strike
resolution; if a "combat ends" strike is played, the combat is
over immediately. If the acting minion played the strike, the
combat ends before the blocking minion can even declare a strike.

5) If an action card such as Computer Hacking provides a directed

bleed, you may bleed any player other than yourself. This
overrides the rules for the default bleed, which is a directed
action only usable against your prey. This is something else that
changed during playtesting, which is why Cat Burglary indicates
different rules for directed bleeds. Any future printings of Cat
Burglary will be changed to make the card useful.

6) If you use a weapon's maneuver, then the first strike you use
that round must be to use that weapon. This means you cannot use
two weapons to maneuver in the same round. However, if you get
additional strikes that round, you may choose to strike with
something other than the weapon you maneuvered with.

7) If you rescue someone else's vampire from torpor, your vampire
must pay both blood. The vampire being rescued may only pay the
blood cost of being rescued if you're rescuing your own vampire.

8) If a vampire uses a political action card such as Disputed
Location to call a vote, the vote provided by that card is
considered to be cast by the player rather than by the vampire.
So vote provided by the political action card cannot be canceled
by Pulled Strings, for example.

9) Titles are never considered to be cards in play, even though
Praxis Seizures are often "played" on a vampire to remind everyone
it has that title. This means that Democritus's ability does not
apply to contested titles, Praxis: Solomon cannot dictate the
outcome of a contested title, etc.


REVERSALS

1) The FAQ states that if a Malkavian is stolen by Malkavian
Dementia and its new controller is ousted before the Dementia's
effect ends, then the vampire is returned. This is incorrect; the
Malkavian would be burned normally.

ERRATA TO CARDS AND RULES

1) Section 12.3.1 of the rules describes equipment and ally cards
as being action cards. This is not correct. They are considered
a separate class of cards, as described in section 7.2.2.

2) Sections 7.2.2 and 14.4 have conflicting statement about how
many times an action modifier may be played during a single
action. Section 7.2.2 is correct; the same *minion* may only play
a given action modifier once, but potentially each minion
controlled by a player may use the same card to modify an action.
This means that all of your vampires may play Cloak the Gathering
on the same action (assuming they all have superior obfuscate),
that an action modifier can be repeated if Mask of 1000 Faces is
used, and so on.

3) Blood Rage should be a Thaumaturgy card, not a Fortitude card.


CARD RULINGS


1a) "Someone's vampire just got sent to torpor, and the other
player is planning on burning it with Amaranth. Do I have time to
save the vampire with Minor Boon? If I do, does it continue the
combat?"
1b) "If a vampire is saved with Minor Boon, can I play Pulled
Fangs on it, and send it to torpor again?"
Minor Boon is used after the combat is actually over. Thus
it is used after Pulled Fangs could be played, and using it does
not cause the combat to continue. If it matters whether it is
used before or after another card, use the normal play procedure
for combat: acting player plays first, then blocking player, then
in turn order starting with the acting player's prey.

2) "Can I use Elysium on a combat I'm not involved with? How

about Frenzy? Mob Connections? Police Department?"

Presses can only be provided by players involved in the
combat, so you cannot use Mob Connections or Police Department on
a combat you're not involved in. Elysium and Frenzy may be used
regardless of whether you're involved in the combat.

3) "Shouldn't Hidden Lurker be an action modifier?"


No. It is an action, as the card says.

4) "Can my Ghoul Retainer keep firing my Sawed-Off Shotgun over
and over during a combat?"
No. The ghoul is actually using the weapon in question, and
must follow all the normal rules for using it. Also, you cannot
have your vampire and its ghoul fire the shotgun at the same time.

5) If Bomb is used as a strike, the damage is dealt and the bomb
burned if and only if the strike resolves. If the acting minion
uses Bomb and the blocking minion ends combat, the Bomb doesn't do
anything. If a Bomb is dodged, the minion who used it still takes
the damage, and the bomb is still burned.

6) "What happens if I play superior Form of Mist to end combat,
but the blocking minion plays Psyche?"
Psyche forces a new combat, and the effects of Form of Mist
are lost.

7) "Obedience says that the acting minion may not repeat the
neutralized action later in the turn. What exactly counts as "the
same action"? If encountering a vampire in torpor is neutralized
this way, can I encounter some other vampire in torpor? If a
Bum's Rush is neutralized this way, can I play another Bum's
Rush?"
Action cards may not be repeated this way, so that minion
would not be able to Bum's Rush something else later that turn.
The default actions provided by the game, and actions provided by
cards in play, are considered distinct as long as you're choosing
what gets affected. So a hunt or default bleed that was stopped
by Obedience could not be attempted again later in the turn, but
you could try to equip with a different piece of equipment, could
try to burn a different Army of Rats, etc. All of this applies to
Change Target as well.

8) When you play superior Govern the Unaligned, you may choose
any vampire, even one belonging to another player. If that
vampire turns out to not be younger than the acting vampire, then
no blood is placed. For example, if Helena Casimir uses Govern
the Unaligned on someone else's vampire that turns out to be
Democritus, the action simply doesn't do anything. The acting
player does not find out that she tried to put blood on
Democritus, and only knows that it must be some 10-blood vampire.
This applies to all similar cards, such as Enchant Kindred.

9) If Fame is played on a vampire that is already in torpor, the

3 pool loss does not happen, but players start losing 1 blood on
their turn as described on the card.

10) A Malkavian in torpor may take advantage of Madness Network

to rescue itself on another player's turn.

11) Change of Target does not allow a tapped blocker to untap.
The blocking minion will retain whatever tapped status it had when
it attempted to block the action. A vampire that used Wake With
Evening's Freshness would not be untapped by Change of Target, for
example.


Thomas R Wylie

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May 10, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/10/95
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Purple Kitty <pki...@netcom.com> wrote:
>: 7) If you rescue someone else's vampire from torpor, your vampire
>: must pay both blood. The vampire being rescued may only pay the
>: blood cost of being rescued if you're rescuing your own vampire.
>Why such a strong ruling? Sometimes I'll offer to help a temporary ally
>by rescuing his vampire, as long as he pays the blood. Was such a
>situation affecting game balance?

The basic theory is that you pay all costs for your own actions.

>: 3) Blood Rage should be a Thaumaturgy card, not a Fortitude card.


>ALL RIGHT! Now just fix Enchant Kindred and you've got the major major bugs!

But what fun would this group be if everything was perfect? 8)

>: Presses can only be provided by players involved in the

>: combat, so you cannot use Mob Connections or Police Department on
>: a combat you're not involved in. Elysium and Frenzy may be used
>: regardless of whether you're involved in the combat.

>Why this reversal? Why can I open the Elysium doors to other players (and
>THROW them inside, if they wanted to keep fighting), but not send the
>Police out to break up the fight? This doesn't make sense...

Basically, we sat down and strictly analyzed the card wordings. There is
a point to not being able to Elysium combats you're not involved in, but
it was not considered worth card errata.

>Oh great...that means that the methusalah can play an UNLIMITED NUMBER of
>Hidden Lurkers from that one initial action, while another methuselah can
>only play ONE Fast Reaction. This is an unbalance.

Remember, each *minion* is limited to one reaction per action. Players
are not so limited. So you could Fast React to something three times,
for example.

>: 9) If Fame is played on a vampire that is already in torpor, the

>: 3 pool loss does not happen, but players start losing 1 blood on
>: their turn as described on the card.

>Ahem...I thought it was made abundantly clear that one cannot play Fame
>on a vampire in torpor. Is this a reversal?

*beats head against screen* Says right there, "Put this card on a
ready vampire". Treat this ruling as theoretical, then.


Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for
aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.


Thomas R Wylie

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May 10, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/10/95
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L. Scott Johnson <lsc...@crl.com> wrote:
>>1a) "Someone's vampire just got sent to torpor, and the other
>>player is planning on burning it with Amaranth. Do I have time to
>>save the vampire with Minor Boon? If I do, does it continue the
>>combat?"
>So, for 1a) there is no timing, since Amaranth is played *during* the
>combat - before you have a chance to play Minor Boon, yes?

Yes.

>Frenzy provides a Press. Why can it be used when Polica Dept cannot?

Frenzy is operating on a vampire first, and providing a press second.
Police Department is basically a resuable Open Grate, and is a "pure" press.

>>6) "What happens if I play superior Form of Mist to end combat,
>>but the blocking minion plays Psyche?"
>> Psyche forces a new combat, and the effects of Form of Mist
>>are lost.
>But Psyche doen't block the action's continuance, it simply restarts combat.

Psyche doesn't explicitly block the action's continuance. But after some
discussion, we decided that it sufficiently disrupted the effect.

>>8) When you play superior Govern the Unaligned...


>Why don't you just fix the text on the card to have them do only what they
>were intended to do?

We're not going to fix every card that works a little strangely. Or if we
do fix it, it will be much more likely to happen in a new edition of the
game, than in errata.

>>10) A Malkavian in torpor may take advantage of Madness Network
>>to rescue itself on another player's turn.
>I thought MadNet said "Ready" malkavian.

No, it only makes references to untapped Malkavians.

L. Scott Johnson

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May 10, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/10/95
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In article <3oq8gq$8...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>,

Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>
>Purple Kitty <pki...@netcom.com> wrote:

>>Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>
>>Oh great...that means that the methusalah can play an UNLIMITED NUMBER of
>>Hidden Lurkers from that one initial action, while another methuselah can
>>only play ONE Fast Reaction. This is an unbalance.
>
>Remember, each *minion* is limited to one reaction per action. Players
>are not so limited. So you could Fast React to something three times,
>for example.

But, you can only play Fast Reaction "Immediately" after a block, not after
another Fast Reaction.
You can only play Hidden Lurker "Immediately" after and acting vampire
ends combat. Every hidden lurker will be an acting vampire in combat, thanks
to the new ostrich-ruling.

>*beats head against screen* Says right there, "Put this card on a
>ready vampire". Treat this ruling as theoretical, then.

Since when is theory important to a DTR? :-)

L. Scott Johnson

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May 10, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/10/95
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In article <3oq8sl$8...@darkstar.ucsc.edu>,

Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>
>L. Scott Johnson <lsc...@crl.com> wrote:
>
>>>6) "What happens if I play superior Form of Mist to end combat,
>>>but the blocking minion plays Psyche?"
>>> Psyche forces a new combat, and the effects of Form of Mist
>>>are lost.
>>But Psyche doen't block the action's continuance, it simply restarts combat.
>
>Psyche doesn't explicitly block the action's continuance. But after some
>discussion, we decided that it sufficiently disrupted the effect.
>
>>>8) When you play superior Govern the Unaligned...

>>Why don't you just fix the text on the card to have them do only what they
>>were intended to do?
>
>We're not going to fix every card that works a little strangely. Or if we
>do fix it, it will be much more likely to happen in a new edition of the
>game, than in errata.

Sure - but you just "fixed" Psyche vs. Form of Mist by effectively changing
the text on Psyche to "re-block and enter combat again". I would say the
original effect of this combination simply "worked a little strangely".

And you finally fixed Blood Rage - which didn't even work strangely.

You've "fixed" every (D) action bleed so that they _now_ work strangely.
(And some hardly work at all).

You've "fixed" Rotschreck (?) too many times to count.

You had fixed Hidden Lurker, but decided it was better broken later.

-----
It was a nice excuse, however.

gomi no sensei

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May 10, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/10/95
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In article <pkittyD8...@netcom.com>,
Purple Kitty <pki...@netcom.com> wrote:
>Thomas R Wylie (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote:

>: 3) "Shouldn't Hidden Lurker be an action modifier?"


>: No. It is an action, as the card says.
>

>Oh great...that means that the methusalah can play an UNLIMITED NUMBER of
>Hidden Lurkers from that one initial action, while another methuselah can
>only play ONE Fast Reaction. This is an unbalance.

it's an unbalance, but it favors fast reaction, not hidden lurker. now
hidden lurker can be blocked (which is utterly bogus, and gives us another
undirected action at 0 stealth, along with superior enchant kindred and
psychic veil). only one reaction per minion; you can use as many
fast reactions as you have minions, and hidden lurkers as well. i'm
certainly going to push for a house rule keeping the two cards equal.

sigh. the design team breaks as many things as it fixes, each and every
rulings summary it puts out.

heckler
o, the patience required!
--
If you've ever received email (or ANY sort of mail) from anyone who talks to
you with respect, or even (*GASP*) admires you, please forward it to me so i
may go into an apoplectic coma.
-5150

Purple Kitty

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May 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/11/95
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Thomas R Wylie (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote:

: Purple Kitty <pki...@netcom.com> wrote:
: >: 7) If you rescue someone else's vampire from torpor, your vampire

: >: must pay both blood. The vampire being rescued may only pay the
: >: blood cost of being rescued if you're rescuing your own vampire.

: >Why such a strong ruling? Sometimes I'll offer to help a temporary ally

: >by rescuing his vampire, as long as he pays the blood. Was such a
: >situation affecting game balance?

: The basic theory is that you pay all costs for your own actions.

Hmmr. I would've preferred a ruling like, "If you rescue someone else's
vampire, the vampire's controller gets to decide who pays the blood."
More freedom that way. (Although I can see your point)

: >: 3) Blood Rage should be a Thaumaturgy card, not a Fortitude card.
: >ALL RIGHT! Now just fix Enchant Kindred and you've got the major major bugs

: But what fun would this group be if everything was perfect? 8)

It might get WotC a few less death threats each week...:-) C'mon,
though, can't ya kick the DT into at least THINKING about the Superior
version of EK being +1 stealth?

: >: Presses can only be provided by players involved in the

: >: combat, so you cannot use Mob Connections or Police Department on
: >: a combat you're not involved in. Elysium and Frenzy may be used
: >: regardless of whether you're involved in the combat.

: >Why this reversal? Why can I open the Elysium doors to other players (and

: >THROW them inside, if they wanted to keep fighting), but not send the
: >Police out to break up the fight? This doesn't make sense...

: Basically, we sat down and strictly analyzed the card wordings. There is
: a point to not being able to Elysium combats you're not involved in, but
: it was not considered worth card errata.

<sigh> I don't like this ruling...it's not UNIFORM! You should be able to
either (A) affect any combat with cards like this or (B) NOT be able to.
The Police, Mob, and Elysium are all the same kind of card. Besides,
Frenzy provides a press...that kind of invalidates this ruling.

: >Oh great...that means that the methusalah can play an UNLIMITED NUMBER of

: >Hidden Lurkers from that one initial action, while another methuselah can
: >only play ONE Fast Reaction. This is an unbalance.

: Remember, each *minion* is limited to one reaction per action. Players


: are not so limited. So you could Fast React to something three times,
: for example.

But it says, "Play after the BLOCKING minion finished combat". So I can
play a FR after my vamp blocks, but I can't play another one, because the
Fast Reacting minion isn't a blocking minion! This seemed balanced; it
prevented a lot of abuse.
As it is NOW (after this ruling), Fast Reaction can be played safely, but
Hidden Lurker can be casually blocked. It becomes wallpaper. This card
just doesn't WORK unless it's an action modifier!

--

Meow!


CurtAdams

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May 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/11/95
to
pki...@netcom.com (Purple Kitty) writes:

>: Basically, we sat down and strictly analyzed the card wordings. There
is
>: a point to not being able to Elysium combats you're not involved in,
but
>: it was not considered worth card errata.

><sigh> I don't like this ruling...it's not UNIFORM! You should be able to

>either (A) affect any combat with cards like this or (B) NOT be able to.
>The Police, Mob, and Elysium are all the same kind of card. Besides,
>Frenzy provides a press...that kind of invalidates this ruling.

One of my complaints with the DT rulings is that they attempt to shoehorn
diverse cards into one ruling. There's a difference between gaining a
benefit (which only you can use; e.g. Police and Mob) and causing an
effect (E.G. Elysium). Frenzy differs in that it doesn't say "gain a
press" but "round has a press". The current ruling shows that they looked
at the cards and considered, for each one, whether it allowed use when
you're not involved. I find their conclusions entirely plausible. They
could have issued a blanket ruling had it been appropriate, but here it
really isn't.

Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)

Purple Kitty

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May 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/11/95
to
L. Scott Johnson (sjoh...@math.scarolina.edu) wrote:
: pki...@netcom.com (Purple Kitty) writes:

: >Thomas R Wylie (aa...@cats.ucsc.edu) wrote:

: >: GENERAL RULINGS

: >: 7) If you rescue someone else's vampire from torpor, your vampire

: >: must pay both blood. The vampire being rescued may only pay the
: >: blood cost of being rescued if you're rescuing your own vampire.

: >Why such a strong ruling? Sometimes I'll offer to help a temporary ally

: >by rescuing his vampire, as long as he pays the blood. Was such a
: >situation affecting game balance?

: Probably just too complicated to control how the blood was spent.


: (Although the complications didn't keep them from !@#$ing over the
: GtU when (mis-)applied to another Meth's uncontrolled vampire).

No kidding...with all the fuss over GtU, I don't see why they're "fixing"
THIS. It's just fine as is...

: >: 3) Blood Rage should be a Thaumaturgy card, not a Fortitude card.

: >ALL RIGHT! Now just fix Enchant Kindred and you've got the major major bugs

: And Concealed Weapon.

Oh yeah...we've been playing CW!=Ob for so long I forgot it wasn't fixed
yet. :-)

: >: Presses can only be provided by players involved in the

: >: combat, so you cannot use Mob Connections or Police Department on

: >Why this reversal? Why can I open the Elysium doors to other players (and

: >THROW them inside, if they wanted to keep fighting), but not send the
: >Police out to break up the fight? This doesn't make sense...

: True. The only card that should be allowed in external Combats is Frenzy,

: due to card text, and Nos Put (of course).

Frenzy allows a press, doesn't it? That invalidates this whole ruling,
above and BEYOND making Elysium special. This REALLY needs to be rethought.

: >: 3) "Shouldn't Hidden Lurker be an action modifier?"


: >: No. It is an action, as the card says.

: >Oh great...that means that the methusalah can play an UNLIMITED NUMBER of

: >Hidden Lurkers from that one initial action, while another methuselah can
: >only play ONE Fast Reaction. This is an unbalance.

: But the action may be blocked (stupidly), whereas the Reaction cannot.


: This was my point so long ago when I got the DT to shake of some of the
: nonsense that seems to define their being.

HUH? You're right...and that's STUPID. That makes HL just a
less-versatile version of Bum's Rush! Damnit, HL should be the same as
Fast Reaction, and that can only be done as an action modifier.
--

Meow!


Purple Kitty

unread,
May 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/11/95
to
Thomas Doehne (doe...@church.cse.ogi.edu) wrote:
: pki...@netcom.com (Purple Kitty) writes:
: >ALL RIGHT! Now just fix Enchant Kindred and you've got the major major bugs

: Enchant Kindred? It the problem with this the same as with GtU?

No, I mean the fact that the Superior version of EK should be a +1
stealth action, as for GtU.

--

Meow!


Chris Carter

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May 17, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/17/95
to
In article <3on4us$l...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, aa...@cats.ucsc.edu says...

>
>9) Titles are never considered to be cards in play, even though
>Praxis Seizures are often "played" on a vampire to remind everyone
>it has that title. This means that Democritus's ability does not
>apply to contested titles, Praxis: Solomon cannot dictate the
>outcome of a contested title, etc.
>
Uhh, isn't having a player vote sort of contrary to some of the back
ground of the game design. I mean the methuselahs are supposedly
manipulating things from behind the scene. Would one of them actually
come out from behind his cloak of secrecy and cast a vote.


William S. Westermann

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May 17, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/17/95
to
cca...@stargate.promus.com (Chris Carter) wrote:

>Uhh, isn't having a player vote sort of contrary to some of the back
>ground of the game design. I mean the methuselahs are supposedly
>manipulating things from behind the scene. Would one of them actually
>come out from behind his cloak of secrecy and cast a vote.

I don't see it as the Methuselah actually calling the vote, but as an
effort to bring the vote around. Just having the vote taken seriously
enough for people (vamps) to show up in one place and discuss the
ramifications has some weight on its own. (Just ask anyone working in
a business environment,... just getting the people together has some
value to it.)

Scott.
--
______________________________________________________________________________


J. Hunter Johnson

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May 20, 1995, 3:00:00 AM5/20/95
to
In article <3oq8gq$8...@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>,

Thomas R Wylie <aa...@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>
>Purple Kitty <pki...@netcom.com> wrote:
>>: 7) If you rescue someone else's vampire from torpor, your vampire
>>: must pay both blood. The vampire being rescued may only pay the
>>: blood cost of being rescued if you're rescuing your own vampire.
>>Why such a strong ruling? Sometimes I'll offer to help a temporary ally
>>by rescuing his vampire, as long as he pays the blood. Was such a
>>situation affecting game balance?
>
>The basic theory is that you pay all costs for your own actions.
>
>>: 3) Blood Rage should be a Thaumaturgy card, not a Fortitude card.
>>ALL RIGHT! Now just fix Enchant Kindred and you've got the major major bugs!

>
>But what fun would this group be if everything was perfect? 8)
>
>>: Presses can only be provided by players involved in the
>>: combat, so you cannot use Mob Connections or Police Department on
>>: a combat you're not involved in. Elysium and Frenzy may be used
>>: regardless of whether you're involved in the combat.
>>Why this reversal? Why can I open the Elysium doors to other players (and
>>THROW them inside, if they wanted to keep fighting), but not send the
>>Police out to break up the fight? This doesn't make sense...
>
>Basically, we sat down and strictly analyzed the card wordings. There is
>a point to not being able to Elysium combats you're not involved in, but
>it was not considered worth card errata.
>
>>Oh great...that means that the methusalah can play an UNLIMITED NUMBER of
>>Hidden Lurkers from that one initial action, while another methuselah can
>>only play ONE Fast Reaction. This is an unbalance.
>
>Remember, each *minion* is limited to one reaction per action. Players
>are not so limited. So you could Fast React to something three times,
>for example.

Maybe the intent of the question was focusing on the fact that you
can only Fast React when a blocker has *just* finished combat while
you can Hidden Lurk when an acting minion has *just* finished combat.
This could be interpreted to limit a Methuselah to one Fast Reaction,
since after that one, a blocking minion won't just have finished
a combat. On the other hand, if Hidden Lurker is an action and not
an action modifier, the methuselah would not be so restricted,
since after one Hidden Lurker, the Lurking minion would be an acting
minion who just completed combat.
--
J. Hunter Johnson
jhun...@io.com (Illuminati Online)
"A painter is lost once he has found himself." -- Alfred Russell

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